What are the big problems with the system? They created this concept more than 12 years ago. A market disruptor (and a 30% efficiency increase counts as a disruptor) does not need that long to become a finished product that is produced in bigger numbers. So there must be major challenges with the system. What are they? Have they overcome them? If you introduce such technologies please talk about this.

@antoniopacelli

Жыл бұрын

There is a Variable you didn't Counted: Utility of a Market Disruptor. Nor Request = No Offer.

@kx7500

Жыл бұрын

Exactly

@kx7500

Жыл бұрын

@@antoniopacelli true lol, capitalism is often a factor left out. Even when it’s the most vital to address.

@riveness

Жыл бұрын

High maintenance costs suffering from low round trip efficiency.

@dougaltolan3017

Жыл бұрын

6:09 onwards.. First up there needs to be a good seal between the 2 discs. But by far the absolute worst is the relative timing requirement of the 2 discs. This is made especially tricky with the once per cycle variation in pressure. Edit add: there's also wicked seal requirements between the rotor and the case.

I used to work as an inspector in the quality control department at a company that manufactured multiple sizes and grades of screw blowers, from stock engine types for offroad ATV's to the top drag racing ones that you see on those super long dragsters. They were such a pain to measure all the tolerances and such. The biggest ones had multiple profiles in their outer diameters so the clearances would change on different parts of the rotation. There were by far my least favorite parts to inspect. Super high tolerances, and very difficult to get good repeatable readings.

@onebylandtwoifbysearunifby5475

Жыл бұрын

You should have just done what China does and mold the "QC passed" sticker into the part at the time of manufacture.

@ricos1497

Жыл бұрын

​@@onebylandtwoifbysearunifby5475as opposed to our traditional Western approach of simply offering the inspector's boss the promise of a high paying salary in 3-5 years time.

@matthewbrightman3398

Жыл бұрын

It does make me worry when the culture is basically, keep measuring until it passes.

@aaronfranklin324

Жыл бұрын

You could have used one screw to mold, lathe or hot forge it's partner in a jig with synchronised counterotating chucks. Or even pour garnet grit or run a sanding band along the gap. Rotational lapping. Easy peasy problem to solve. Did you have management that tortured and terminated intelligent people in the workplace?

@LNRenan

Жыл бұрын

​@@aaronfranklin324 i understand your point but then there is the gap and/or the diference of thickness of old/new belts and the "marking" in the resulting piece, also, you would need to polish it to keep it smooth, and then measure it to see if it meet the 0.005mm standarts, so...

I have worked in the industry, and designed compressors that are in testing. I am curious about about thermal management. It seems that their test runs are low pressure and therefore low heat generation. It is difficult to manage very tight tolerances on larger units when you start to have hot spots. This compressor has a cool intake section and hot exhaust that will have a larger temperature difference as the pressure increases, causing a change in the geometry. This is why traditional compressors have larger gaps. Most screw compressors use an oil wedge to help seal, that is mainly why it has a different shape and a tight spot. This does look like a clever design, but I have a hard time believing that it can be 30% more efficient. I have tested many compressors and the best way to have an increase like this, is when you put in a new system and fix all of your leaks. I think that a 3% overall efficiency increase would be huge, and more realistic.

just googled and found out that Ford, Lontra, and Ricardo got a funding from the UK TSB to make a demonstration supercharger, can’t wait to see what comes of that

Very interesting. Millwright here, it's important to note that thermal expansion is another reason why there are clearance gaps. In designs like screw compressions that have to have larger gaps than for example a reciprocating compressor because the materials expands towards each other. Vs a reciprocating compressor where the piston and the wall expands in relatively the same direction. (Although maybe that was beyond the scope of this video) The circle design of this compressor takes advantage of this and thus requires less of a gap. One issue with this design I am seeing however is that it seems like it would be quite prone to damage if it gets dirty or small bits of debris get in. It's relying on very accurate timing of two rotating parts moving in differing directions... ANY mis-alignment would be devastating. Maintenance of this machine would be constant and absolutely critical. (Constant filter change, I would even include a cyclone filter). Worth the extra efficiency. That said, if you can afford it there are more efficient systems out there. Large multi-stage axial compressors with intercoolers betwen stages have INCREDIBLE efficiency. However are extremely expensive to build and maintain. So it's going to have a niche role. It needs to be cheaper than the aforementioned system, but more efficient than screw compressors. If they can make it cheaper enough it could be revolutionary.

@youtrades

Жыл бұрын

A helluva filter system upwind indeed..

@alanhat5252

Жыл бұрын

It's pretty basic shapes that are easily turned or milled (apart from the bevel gear) so tolerances & quality control should be easy to manage in volume production so costs should be low. The problems, as you say, are in maintenance in the field. In particular, the swept area & the number of seals seems alarming.

@acchaladka

Жыл бұрын

Curious: which niches do you think this could do well in? I notice their pilot is in wastewater treatment, which seems pretty thermally stable.

@gabrielhoy6790

Жыл бұрын

@ZipperOfficial But it already IS "revolutionary". That's how it works, it revolves... Okay, I'll see myself out now.

@tonywilson4713

Жыл бұрын

The other problem that it will have is exactly the same problem they have in Wankel Rotary engines and that's sealing the corners. This is why no matter how good of a technology other people have tried the piston in a cylinder works because its so easy to manufacture to a tolerance. Its why the invention of the V-bed lathe by Jacques de Vaucanson was so important to the industrial revolution. YT Channel "Machine Thinking" did an incredible video on that: kzread.info/dash/bejne/lp52m9GEZtPRkqQ.html

Presumably, it would increase round-trip efficiency on compressed air energy storage installations as well, which would be interesting.

@brianjonker510

Жыл бұрын

I thought this video was going to end with that.

@terencefield3204

Жыл бұрын

Irrelevant, sadly.

@BCzepa

Жыл бұрын

@@terencefield3204 not irrelevant at all. kzread.info/dash/bejne/h5-NlMSmcrjPpNI.html

@anthonydunn729

Жыл бұрын

@@terencefield3204 Cause the gaping inefficiencies? I've heard the affordability of off the shelf components and renewables could make the losses viable. Would you disagree?

@terencefield3204

Жыл бұрын

@@anthonydunn729 the UN map of heat equation viability across the globe is clear.A tiny shift at the margins from a technological novelty does not amount to a row of beans.The rest is hope over reality and cynical marketing to techie types.

Depending on the application, the roots or screw compressor sealing gap is often solved by an oil flood system that takes up the space and gets continually circulated in a loop. While this adds some complexity, it also serves to cool the pump and working medium for more stable or predictable outlet temperatures.

@dickmick5517

Жыл бұрын

I was a little surprised this wasn't mentioned. For all we know the supper compressor requires oil also? I always am interested in what they don't say.

@kleetus92

Жыл бұрын

@@dickmick5517 yes absolutely... the devil is in the details.

@edbruder9975

Жыл бұрын

@@dickmick5517 Go to the company page. He's not mentioning the operating pressure is 4 to 15 psi. But it is oil free, so you can use it in drinking water aeration.

@proteinman1981

Жыл бұрын

4 - 15 kpa is useless for most industrial processes

@edbruder9975

Жыл бұрын

@@proteinman1981 Exactly.That limiting factor should have started the conversation so we understand what we're discussing. Reach net zero? C'mon! Who are we kidding? It's psi. not kpa but still a pretty insignificant pressure.

I'm a Millwright, and one of the things we learned at tradeschool was the importance of reducing air leaks wherever possible. I currently work on locomotives, and air compressors are an integral part of the vehicles functioning safely. This new design sounds like an excellent solution to the issues of both the screw and piston compressors.

@balancedgaming2103

9 ай бұрын

Talk to whoever you need to. Get that ball rolling!

A difficult engineering concept explained so easily by Dave. Thank You very much for keeping us updated every week.

@JustHaveaThink

Жыл бұрын

My pleasure!

I ran a grit-blasting business for three years and lived & breathed air compressors, including a bank of 10 fridge motors to fill my receivers overnight and warm the office up ready for work! This technology could make liquified air energy storage more viable.

@kevsowell

Жыл бұрын

It's a blower per say, not an air compressor. 15 psi max

@kentonian

Жыл бұрын

@@kevsowell it's not 15psi max. The maximum just depends on the tolerances and strength of the parts. You could build one capable of 1000psi

As a mechanical engineer I can see many ways why this hasn't been adopted but the major one is the geartrain needed that not only changes the direction of power by 90 degrees (huge energy waste right there) but also has to be zero backlash for millions of revolutions. A roots blower only has four points of high precision contact where this design has a dozen or so.

@andrewallen9993

Жыл бұрын

Please don't embarass this video maker with your ability to perform simple arithmetic :)

@iambotbeepboopba6732

Жыл бұрын

Welll he did say they could get the same effect in less quality parts so perhaps even tho it has more its made up by the fact the tolerances arent as high.

Hi Dave, compressor tech and things like motor scheduling or variable / efficiency improvements are among the great technological leaps of the 20th century, you're quite right. I'd love to see a second video answering some of the excellent comments brought up in response to this video, a deeper dive. Specifically, what are the company responses to the filtration problem / multiple seals, turbulent flow patterns and opportunities, niches they see as most useful and viable, independent test results, and market issues. Thanks for a video on one of my favourite topics.

@janami-dharmam

Жыл бұрын

Do you think that regular compressors are inefficient? but they can provide very high compressions in single stage operations. You think that friction (only cause of inefficiency; not counting adiabatic heat due to compression) causes more than 30% loss in total?

Turbine manufacturers solve the precision end gap issue for turbine blades by allowing the blade ends to be abraded by the housings with the result of perfect clearance at max heat and RPM. Similar abrasive machining can bring roots type blowers into perfect clearance very cheaply.

@ClockworksOfGL

Жыл бұрын

Most screw compressors use an oil to fill the gaps between surfaces, which is filtered out of the discharge air and recycled back into the system. Seems to work just fine. Change the oil every few thousand hours and you’re good to go.

"Leave no stone unturned" approach. (With an Exceptionally thorough and clear explanation of how this device works). Rethinking existing products with efficiency in mind is too often overlooked. People want "New and Wild" all the time, but this design is revolutionary too (and you can even choose your direction).

Please share more on tech like this in the future! I've researched everything involving compressors and even follow someone whos making their own at home to power a race car with batteries attached and they've had great success with it in testing so far which is mind blowing.

Late to the party here, but the sealing issues for positive displacement roots/screw type blowers have been dramatically mitigated over the last couple of decades by the use of advanced coatings on the rotor packs. These durable yet flexible coatings literally wear in to a near optimum seal upon first use. This is one of the reasons we can see compressor efficiencies on vehicle ICE superchargers in excess of 70% now (best I've seen is 74%, may be some higher). Turbos are more efficient still which is why we don't see too many OEM PD supercharged vehicles anymore, but the existing tech, at least in the automotive space, isn't nearly as bad as this video makes it sound.

I'm reminded of a Wankel rotary engine a little. It just has two chambers instead of 3 because no combustion is needed.

@simongross3122

Жыл бұрын

Yes it does resemble a rotary engine. Maybe it could be a rotary leaf-blower :)

@NikaHollywood

Жыл бұрын

@@simongross3122 Or maybe a rotary supercharger for a rotary engine?

Positive displacement compressors and motors are better for variable speeds. Turbines are better for fairly constant speeds, especially at higher flow rates, which is why aircraft, power plants, ships, etc. use them. The precision timing of this design would lead to a catastrophic failure if the timing mechanism wore even a little.

@michaelpatrick6950

Жыл бұрын

Ever see a rotary lobe/screw blower that has a little wear on the timing gears? Or that they were reassembled after maintenance off by one tooth on the timing gears? Can you say shrapnel?

@karaffens

Жыл бұрын

​@@michaelpatrick6950 Im quite sure that most air screw compressors only drive om one of the screws and the other follow, no need to use gears. Screw compressors are very reliable.

@fidelcatsro6948

Жыл бұрын

its like Rotary engine replacing a piston engine

@hemiwark5246

Жыл бұрын

​@@karaffenson a contact cooled screw compressor the oil is what creates the clearance oil free units are geared.

Very pleased to hear that this design is being used industrially. This is the best way to find out what the challenges of using these pumps really are. The cost of, and ease (or difficulty) of, maintenance of the seals will determine how successful the compressor will be. We'll wait to see what happens over the next five years with this product. Thanks for the video. 🙂👍

A big, low hanging fruit in compressed air systems is setting the system up properly for the end use. Most compressed air systems are designed for a common pressure, say 125 psig, but all the plant uses are much lower. I've seen plants where the plant air system compresses air to 150 psig and the maximum usage pressure in the plant is 25 psig. Of course, you have to balance piping cost against wasted energy compressing to an excessive pressure. But the piping cost is a one time expense while the wasted energy is for the life of the plant. And, almost universally, the air is let down across a valve wasting the energy stored in the over pressure air. The same thing happens in steam systems: generate steam at 150 psig and use it at 10 psig and getting there across a PRV.

Formula 1 engineer, Guy Niegre, developed a compressed air piston engine that can power a carbon fiber mini van 200 miles on 3x 7 foot tanks. Angelo Di Pietro invented a smaller, more powerful compressed air rotary engine & a new compressed air tank. The compressor featured in your video + solar electricity, combined with their engine & tank, may be the answer to zero emissions transport. Would like to hear your thoughts on these two engineer's designs, in a future video.

@joejoejoejoejoejoe4391

Жыл бұрын

There used to be "fireless" locomotives, instead of a conventional boiler, they just had a tank that received steam from a outside source, then used the steam to power the locomotives, often in paper Mills or mines where sources of ignition are problematic. This can hold more energy than compressed air.

@wolfgangpreier9160

Жыл бұрын

A simple battery can store more energy than compressed air tanks.

@sammason2300

Жыл бұрын

Compressed air has a very low energy density compared to other storage devices (fuel, battery etc.)

@sustainable7865

Жыл бұрын

Well he didn't. He maybe made other beleive that he developed this "snake oil" mini van. Sorry, but likelihood of that being anything but a hoax/scam is very small. First an foremost: A compressor is a very inefficient device. Somewhere between 10-20% of the input energy is converted into compressed air, and the rest as heat, the lowest form of energy. Higher pressure =lower efficiency. Secondly: A circular tank 3×7 feet has a volume of roughly 1,8m3. If that tank was filled with air @ 200bar(same as a divers tube) the total energy content in that tank would be 36130kJ or 10kWh. Roughly 1/20th of the capacity of a Tesla model S battery. Third: This vehicle was driven by a piston engine power from the stored energy in the air tank. Piston engines isn't the most efficient either. Reciprocating motion involves continuous acceleration/deceleration meaning losses. I have a hard time imaging a efficiency anything above 35%. But let's say 50% for the sake of argument. That would mean 0,2×0,5=0,1=10% efficiency of the system as a whole. 50kWh electric energy, converted into 10kWh compressed air, converted into 5kWh of mechanical work. And he drove 200 miles =320km using only 5kWh. If we assume a speed of 100kph or 60mph he drove for roughly 3h. That indicates a mean power consumption of 5kWh/3h=1,7kW=2,3hp. NO, NO, NO!

My V8 Hot Rod runs a 6/71 Rootes Supercharger .It has teflon strips on the rotors . One of these compressors would be less parasitic drag off the engine .

"Free of ads and sponsorship messages" is an integral part of this channel, and I like that. It sounds really weird in this particular video; the while entire thing is an ad/sponsorship message for Lontra.

used to work with ac's and cooling machines, it is really something i remember almost being invisible when i was a kid, everyone knows there are cars and trains and power lines, but its so easy to miss all the heat pumps that are all over the place :) and compressors are not all that efficient :-) at least for non industrial applications, a lot of potential there for innovation.

@janami-dharmam

Жыл бұрын

@@GaryGraham-sx4pm in what way it is different from a regular rotary vacuum pump?

@monkerud2108

Жыл бұрын

@@GaryGraham-sx4pm i have no idea what you even mean by that.. A vacuum pump minimizes leakage and does not maximise mechanical effichiency, and if you are one of these weirdos chasing me around the playground then you should maybe think about the implications a bit more carefully ❤️

@GaryGraham-sx4pm

Жыл бұрын

@@monkerud2108 wtf?

Absolutely brilliant. If this takes off, heat pumps are suddenly even more efficient than they currently are. Thanks Dave

@youtrades

Жыл бұрын

I do believe you're onto something eh?!!:))

@craigeryjohn

Жыл бұрын

@@lawrencetaylor5407 they're the same thing

@GaryGraham-sx4pm

Жыл бұрын

heat pumps are progressively less efficient as outside temperatures decrease, ground source negates that affect with consistent heating at just the cost of compressor energy, and the 'lontra' principle certainly improves on that equation. my two cents worth is heat-exchanged to hot water with capacity and insulation enough for a week, but with the compressor directly mechanically coupled to a wind turbine, of any type, on the expectation of wind blowing enough at least once a week, with calculated sizing to acquire winter heating at zero cost and with zero electrical and electronic gadgetry (except perhaps for over-temp shutdown).

@thotmorgana

Жыл бұрын

@@GaryGraham-sx4pm that sounds very complex and inducing losses in heat storage. It seems easier to me to just store the wind energy in a battery and drive the compressor of the heatpump with that energy.

@GaryGraham-sx4pm

Жыл бұрын

@@thotmorgana hot water insulated with sand might be more friendly than batteries and an alternator and rectifier and battery management system and inverter and motor controller and motor to get the same end result: heat storage

That is a brilliant bit of engineering/design work making something that complex in idea, that simple in function.

Great video as always. These simple, yet crucial improvements are always fun to learn about. The section from 9:30, writing the napkin math on the page while you talked through the wider message was an especially nice touch. Can't recall if you've used that particular trick in the past, but I've always noted your use of the rendered pages as a winner.

I am guessing this will also work on other compressible gasses? Heat pump type stuff?

👍🏻👍🏻 great video. I have a bottling plant where we use screw compressors for low pressure requirements ( upto 8-10 kgs ) and reciprocating compressors for high pressure requirements ( 36-44 kgs ) which are one of our major costs. Never knew the screw compressors were thaaaat old a technology. Thanks for the introduction to this new option. Would live more videos like that 👍🏻

A trompe is a water-powered air compressor, commonly used before the advent of the electric-powered compressor. A trompe is somewhat like an airlift pump working in reverse. Trompes were used to provide compressed air for bloomery furnaces in Catalonia and the USA. The trompe is one of those lost technologies. Around the nineteenth century, if a mine were located near a river, they would install a trompe to use energy from the falling water to isothermally compress air. If developed again in could be a very integral part of solving energy issues without environmental damage.

It's amazing how they still come up with new solutions to age old problems.

I'd like to see the comparison of this to a scroll compressor rather than a typical screw compressor or piston compressor.

@johgude5045

Жыл бұрын

me 2

@machinemaker2248

Жыл бұрын

Thank you. I was trying to think of that term, scroll compressor, during the whole video.

@phyllip7426

Жыл бұрын

@@machinemaker2248 vein compressor may be pf interest too

@ronaldvankuijk6604

Жыл бұрын

Volkswagen has a scroll comp cascades work with mercury below zero yunis

Back in the 1960s Chrysler designed a No gas air conditioner called Rovax. Air was sucked out of the cabin and a rotary compressor to 30psi. The comppressed air passed through a common radiator which drew the heat out of it. Cooled compressed air passed through the other side of the compressor to recover some power as it was released. A filter sorted the ice out of it and 4F air went back in the cabin. 4 engineers took the Plymouth to the Ca desert where it was 104F outside. Temp in the cabin got down to 58F! No freon, no recharging, no service. They buried it and we never heard about it again....

That is a beautiful design. As a hobby machinist, I dream of making things like this on my home-built milling machine. :)

@nigeladams8321

Жыл бұрын

Do it. Screw the patents you're not selling it, use it as a benchmark to test your skills

Thank you for your very clear explanation. I'm glad to see that the Lontra blade compressor is being increasingly applied to many traditional uses. At first I assumed that you would be talking about waste heat recovery from the compression process. It sounds like this compressor is most useful in applications where a compressor lubricating fluid can't be employed.

@paulmichaelfreedman8334

Жыл бұрын

Like Oxygen lines

@alanhat5252

Жыл бұрын

there seems to be a lot of seals sweeping almost every surface, I don't see it working without lubrication & exceptional air filtration.

@janami-dharmam

Жыл бұрын

viscosity of a hot and high pressure gas is high and they tend to leak less. This is particularly important when the engine RPM is high and the process is almost adiabatic. Multistage centrifugal compressors are not inefficient and they can run at high speed.

@kentonian

Жыл бұрын

@@alanhat5252 multi stage axial compressors have much more sealing surfaces

Liquid ring compressors also leap to mind when thinking on low-leakage compressor designs. There have even been some fascinating patents utilizing them as heat engine turbines.

@alantupper4106

Жыл бұрын

@Meister von Drake Not sure I can post URLs, but search for patents US9803480B2 and US9453412B2 Edit: US7681397B2 as well!

It used to really suck running airlines to a job in a high, hot and hard to reach area. Now we take cordless tools to the job. The savings in air related costs and total work is incredible.

I thought this was going to be another video about compressed air batteries (a very good idea) but this was genuinely interesting and new! That is a very clever design for a compressor!

@edwarding4355

Жыл бұрын

It makes getting to compressed air batteries more efficient.

Hmm. Interesting. I'd like to see comparative efficiency data and pressure plots. The exhaust port and blade intersection with holes and sharp edges induces a ton of turbulence. Seems like an interesting idea, but the devil is in the details, and the details still look rough. Looks like potentially high volume but low pressure kind of design.

@mustdie1998

Жыл бұрын

With an increase in the required pressure, radial loads on the rotating part with small holes will increase significantly and uneven during compression. The bearing will not be happy.

@mustdie1998

Жыл бұрын

By the way, simple piston engine is way more reliable and efficient than topic`s supercharger...

@grahamehadden4320

Жыл бұрын

Would this be good as a compressor for a refrigerator. Would help bring down the price of heat compressors.

@mustdie1998

Жыл бұрын

@@grahamehadden4320 Price of heat compressors based on electric coils manufacturing. This gismo will lower electric consumption.

@sepg5084

Жыл бұрын

​@@mustdie1998 have you proven that? What is the maintenance interval for the machine mentioned by the video?

This is an ideal solution for medical gasses as a carefully selected metallurgy and seals for bearings would impart nothing from the compressor except pressure. 🤔 Diving air is another use where a hookah dive pump using this compressor could easily be driven electrically. This has a tremendous amount of applications and would be ideal for plant air with an air dryer. Great video 😀👍

I work with cryogenic instrumentation and piping which we pump down to about 10^-7 milibars. Super interested in stuff like this, hope we'll be able to intergrate it some day, allthough i'm afraid its volume/revolution isn't great enough compared to the spiral pumps we have now. Still amazing to see!

Love how simplicity intelligently added to basic components is the mantra of this generation of engineers.

@cheez1213

Жыл бұрын

Provided they don’t add their feelings into the equation

I adore your episodes on new interesting technologies. Keep it up!

@JustHaveaThink

Жыл бұрын

Thanks, will do!

@alanhat5252

Жыл бұрын

I agree in general but with this particular one I would have liked to see independent testing & in-service reviews before giving it free advertising. From the manufacturer's videos it looks like it's competing not with piston-type or Roots-type compressors but with centrifugal blowers, their videos don't show higher than 1.2 bar which is vacuum cleaner & car heater territory so it's competing with pressed sheet-metal & simple castings. Efficiency may be better than these very cheap designs but efficiency gains are to be had on centrifugal compressors too & with no added mechanical complexity, just tighter tolerances.

@acchaladka

Жыл бұрын

​@@alanhat5252 great points, hope you made them on the main thread.

@MaryAnnNytowl

Жыл бұрын

Erm ... this may be _interesting,_ but it's hardly new. This tech goes way back. 😆

That is a novel idea, loved the scale model which made it so easy to understand. If it can do what they say it can do will be useful for a lot of things. Wish them the best of luck with it all. Also there was a guy in Australia who built a car which looked more like the lunar lander, that ran on compressed air and used to it go back and forth to the shops, he used either solar or wind turbine to compress the air in the tanks and then used to drive around, although not big a n heavy family car it was pretty cool and he built it so he did not have to pay for fuel. Cant remember where i saw that but thought it was pretty cool.

@turbinex_generators

Жыл бұрын

We hold multiple pneumatic generator patents. We use compressed air to power 5kw and 10kw generators. Patents cover: design, operation, and tank storage.

@vish5798

10 ай бұрын

​​​@@turbinex_generatorsWhat's you're company name. How shall I contact you for more information about your services and products?

@vish5798

10 ай бұрын

Oh ya you mean The Di Pietro Motor, developed by the Australian company EngineAir, is a rotary engine powered by compressed air. The guy's name is Angelo Di Pietro.

There is alot of applications that also use a simple piston compressor, like O2 concentrators for medical applications. They use aluminium sleeves and a sort of compound head gasket that only lasts for so long. It is loud, it vibrates and needs to be serviced alot. I also suspect that the piston design overall uses more electricity to run because the efficiency is lower at the end points where almost no linear motion occurs. This is a very cool piece of engineering. And yes, corkscrew compressors or pumps are insanely expensive for what they offer because the screws and their bearings have such low tolerances across such a big surface area. This company is going places.

You missed a new pump, the SCROLL PUMP. In the 1960s, when the inventer showed me his first working model at his home in Mason NH. He had made it on a modified drill press. It consists of one fixed disk with a scroll cut into it's face and another driven by an offset crank. with an inverse scroll . The scrolls were mirror identicle, each with the raised part fitting perfectly into the other ones groove. I recognised it immediatly as a truly new mechanical invention and suggested it would be a great clean vacuum pump. It had a Teflon sealing surface. The next I knew it was being built in japan as a large compressor (that needed water cooling). But now it is in heavy use in the semiconductor processing world as a clean, (no sealing oil) vacuum pump. The inventer Niels Young worked at Arthur D. Little Corp.

When I was a 17-year-old HS senior I took a half-day auto shop class (thanks Bill Frank!) and started musing on the idea of an air car that would work like a diesel, at the top of the compression stroke a compressor would inject a bit of highly compressed air into the cylinder to push the piston down for the power stroke. Since then compressors have always been a fascination. Excellent explanation for this new compressor design. Thank you for taking the time to produce this excellent KZread!

I love to see long established tech get un upgrade. Not all tech follows Moore's Law but that does not mean better alternatives aren't awaiting us. Thanks for making this video!

@balancedgaming2103

9 ай бұрын

I wanna see how we can make other technologies much more user friendly and able to be used by everyone with little prior knowledge. Like a chainsaw. Its a technology that was invented in 1830, and as far as safety is concerned is still one of the most dangerous pieces of equipment we operate willy nilly. Chippers too.

I would love to see some data comparing this pump's design with several established designs.

It really depends on the product and the industry as to what provides the air for product blow lines. My experience was in the cereal business so we were transporting grain and flour. In this application, the air volume and not pressure was the most important thing so the equation was the distance of travel, type of product, feed rate of product needed, and how many bends which gave you the diameter of the pipe and required airflow which gave you the size of the blower and in our case we did not require expensive screw type blowers. In most cases, they were large volume low-pressure centrifugal blowers or sometimes the old-style roots blower. With smaller diameter transport pipes it was found that using a vacuum to provide the moving force was better as the air was not heated by the blower. The vacuum pumps were water-cooled. So maybe this is why you won't see a lot of these around yet as they will be more expensive than simple blowers. High-pressure compressed air in the factory was used for control devices and actuators which pertained mainly to machinery. So it really comes down to what pressure and volume of air an industry needs when it looks at what pressurised air units to purchase.

I was a facility engineer in several manufacturing plant operations over the years and eventually into business. Now retired for a while but I used, and still do, believe that Compressed Air...be it plant service air, dry air or control air was the most expensive utility in the plant... Thanks for the introduction into a new approach to shoving a large volume into a smaller space... repeat...

Hmm.... Is it back-driveable? Meaning, can I compress air into a storage device and later use that air to decompress and drive the motor to become a generator? Ya know, energy storage!

@williamwaugh8670

Жыл бұрын

I don't see any reason why not.

@matthewhuszarik4173

Жыл бұрын

Yes it can they are call air accumulators and they can be used to power a lot of things directly more efficiently or by generating electricity less efficient.

I deeply appreciate the topics you cover and the approaches you use when covering them!!! Thank you! When I'm in a better fiscal situation, I will totally share through Patreon💜. (the road is paved with good intentions yes? 😋)

@JustHaveaThink

Жыл бұрын

Thanks @Jonneonut I really appreciate your support:-)

My home compressor is a screw type, it uses oil to seal the rotors so that the clearances don't have to be quite so perfect. The oil is separated from the air and run through a cooler before recirculating. Some oil does escape the separator and go to the tank.

The animation made it much easier to grasp the concept. TY 👍🏻

A really nice aspect of compressed air is that you can store large amounts of energy in a small space, enough to lift a submarine out of the water (been there, done that). And the compressor can be run by a windmill. Wow, no carbon footprint.

@machinemaker2248

Жыл бұрын

Though the containment vessel is heavy, making specific energy much lower than conventional fuels.

Such a simple solution that is obvious yet I never considered doing such a thing.

@incognitotorpedo42

Жыл бұрын

Things always look obvious after someone else has figured them out. I thought this was a brilliant bit of design that was not at all obvious.

When you can assure me that the compressor can deliver 100-120psi pressure 24/7 for at least 80 000-100 000h lifetime with only basic service a few times a year (oil, filters and small parts replacement, 2h stop max), with more than 10% energy saving from screw compressors, then its a revolution. Screw compressors are a refined technology and new more efficient speed controlled motors and other things make them more efficient than before. They also rely on a constant flow of oil that seals and cool the screw, then oil is separated from the air flow, really smart actually. Got a brand new Atlas Copco GA45VSD+FF few weeks ago at work, hope its as good as our GA30VSD that have 92 000h and still works perfect.

Great video. I wonder if rotating the pump the other way would give a vacuum pump, and whether the pump can be used as a motor if you apply compressed air to the output

Considering moving the world ro heat pumps represents about 22% of what is required to get to a clean and sustainable future (according to Tesla), having more efficient compressors is a VERY big deal 🤔

Attach one to each hub of a wheel Make pressurized air move a turbine that's connected to a generator Each wheel contributes to the charging of the power cell Semi trailers- average have 4 possible hubs, that only roll around now. Make the _pulling of the trailer_ create power!

Thank you for the excellent presentation.

In most compressors, all the final sealing requirements are ultimately met by appropriately viscous oil filling the inevitable remaining gaps between components. This design introduces all sorts of dynamically interacting seal gaps that need that oil film delivered to them and maintained. That would seem to be a huge can-o-worms for achieving maximum potential for the design. No mention of it though.☹️ (Unless I just didn’t pick up on it. That’s happened before…)

@blameyourself4489

Жыл бұрын

I agree. This thing is unsealed like a can of bad worms.

@leifhall2289

Жыл бұрын

On Lantras web page it is presented as oil free and I agree that there is many problems not covered. Even Lantra doesn't show much on their web site.

@sepg5084

Жыл бұрын

​@@blameyourself4489 if you will believe what the videos says where it is already being used effectively in some factories and sewage treatment plants, then that means they have already solved the "can of worms" that you are talking about in those applications.

@williamwaugh8670

Жыл бұрын

@@sepg5084 It would be great if someone would explain what kind of solution is employed, in that case.

Fun fact: industrial air compressors are basically ideal for remanufacturing.

I work in a Natural gas power plant and we use dozens of various compressors for a multitude of tasks. This tech and others like it could greatly reduce auxiliary load on the plant

Air conditioning would benefit from this. Cooling is based on the sudden expansion of a compressed gas, this would improve the efficiency of an AC system.

Is there any information on what system they replaced for the airation at the water treatment plant?

@ibey01

Жыл бұрын

Water treatment plants aerate the pool in order to keep them from settling and to oxygenate the waste water.

Thanks Dave - has this compressor been used with a heat pump and if so is there an improvement in the CoP?

@w8stral

Жыл бұрын

The energy efficiency is not really about Heat pumps in its compressor. Rather the fluid, radiators. The mechanical compressor is the minority portion.

@ronaldvankuijk6604

Жыл бұрын

Atlas copco sweden makes already these trains used in their metal mines smart thesepoikas and flicornas cheers yunis

@edbruder9975

Жыл бұрын

@@w8stral You pay for the energy the mechanical compressor uses when running a heat pump. If it's 35% less energy, it's 35% better.

@w8stral

Жыл бұрын

@@edbruder9975 Yes/No. See above. All improvements are nice; no one will bitch about improved efficiency, but we have no idea if this version scales or its gains. It sounds like it should but it is always those nitty gritty details which screw the works up.

@edbruder9975

Жыл бұрын

@@w8stral On their webpage it says it's working pressure is 4 to 15 PSI so you'd need quite a stack of them to pump much heat. They shoulda started the story with 15 PSI but net 0 draws way more viewers and comments. Like you said the devil's in the details.

New to this channel. Very informative, and rather impressively presented! Subscribed.

Thank you for sharing

I am curious to know what the difference in noise level is as well. Anyone who's used a typical air compressor knows it is typically noisy and gets hot.

@nathancommon7715

Жыл бұрын

You can't compress air without it getting hot-basic laws.

I love when an incremental improvement like this is so effective, and you explained it elegantly. My one question: doesn't the Lontra design introduce a pulse that the Roots design doesn't? Isn't there going to be variability in the output between the start of the cycle and the end?

@w8stral

Жыл бұрын

They both have pulses. The continuous roots blower screw version does ~not though. Much more expensive to make and rarely done. So, if this is much cheaper to make... then yes.

@yeroca

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, I think the output pressure would oscillate on every cycle, but that can be dealt with using some kind of pressure smoothing mechanism. One simple method would be to put a large chamber on the output of the compressor. Because the volume of the chamber is so much larger than the volume of the "piston", the effect of injecting that oscillating pressure into the chamber would have little effect on the pressure in the chamber as a whole. I'm not a mechanical engineer, though, so there are probably better and more compact methods than this.

Elegant simplicity.

Great informative video… you were ‘on fire’ tonight! Many thanks for all your presentations!

Thats pretty interesting. I am interested to see it used more widely and to have its longevity tested

Be interesting to see the other stats on this because its not just about how much power a compressor is using. There is CFM and PSI needed for work flow/tool usage. So with a higher efficiency looks like it would have higher CFM due to less loses. But PSI is a mechanical limitation of material strength. A lot of compressors are two or even three stage how will they deal with that?

@larrybolhuis1049

Жыл бұрын

Just thinking at the keyboard here but for more volume you make them bigger. :-) Seriously though, being circular that should be fairly straightforward. For higher pressure you could connect units in series. Even simply piston pumps have a larger cylinder feed its output to a smaller cylinder to raise the pressure a second time. I've even seen three sizes in a row for triple compression. These circular units could also be use in sequence I would expect, bigger one feeds smaller one which operates on the already partially compressed air.

Wonderful and interactive comments as usual. Thank you for posting!

I`m a compressed air engineer and trust me. Don`t worry about the efficiency of the compressor. I`ve been to a place where a 100kW machine was running at full load just to accomodate the air leaks in the factory and nothing is done about it. This case doesn`t stand alone.

Compressed air generation is up to 40% of energy loss in pharmaceutical industry

@incognitotorpedo42

Жыл бұрын

Well, OK, but pharma is not an industry that uses a large amount of energy.

Would it be suited to increase heat pump efficiency i wonder?

Thank you for another great video! This one was very different. Mechanical engineering is a bit out of my line, so I had to rewind and watch your explanation of how the compressor worked a few times. Got it eventually though. It's really quite amazing to think about how machines like this do all that work at tremendous speed, spinning around with the second part always rotating into place just when it's needed, fitting so tight that air can't escape. Everything always working just as planned, thousands of times of times in every minute. If I'm understanding you right, this is the first major improvement to air compressors in a long time? Was it a situation where there was no push for improved efficiency because existing models were "good enough," or was there some kind of technological improvement that made the new design possible? I wonder if there are other industrial machines that could be redesigned for similar improvements in efficiency.

Infernal Combustion Device: a Pump, with a 'grundle' of additional engineering done to it, to allow it to produce Torque. (Trucker's all say, "Torque gets you up a hill, horsepower gets you a Ticket.")

The rotary screw compressor rotors never touch and they are flooded with oil that helps sealing .so very low friction. This one appears to have huge surfaces sliding against each other. Other than less vibration than normal reciprocating compressors and easier to machine than the special rotors in a screw machine , I do not see any real advantage . Also unless there are two stage versions , limited to low pressure applications as any good 125 psi unit is two stage with an intercooler between stages to lower energy consumption .

The problem with efficiencies is that companies will tend to expand their output as a result, rather than keep the output the same and thereby reduce emissions. Not that I think this compressor efficiency is a bad thing, just that I'm not sure it will result in real-world reductions in emissions.

@Vazzini42

Жыл бұрын

By making more they would oversupply and put other manufacturers out or not be able to sell. Basic supply and demand.

All this is great and I hope to learn more about the numbers to attach to Lontra's claims. The efficiency of compressors is universally evaluated on the basis of comparison of their performance to a reversible machine, one that is either isentropic (adiabatic, reversible) or isothermal (constant temperature). Therefore, we come to the isentropic efficiency or isothermal efficiency, respectively, quantified by a percentage value - 100% being a perfectly isentropic or isothermal machine (but either are impossible to achieve), and these percentages are plotted on a compressor map, since they are not constant over the operating range of the device, with the flow rate on the X-axis and the pressure ratio on the Y. A very good compressor would have an isentropic efficiency in the order of 80%. An improvement of ~30% as has been thrown the video would put the efficiency over 100% (right....). Even if we start with a very mediocre compressor as a basis of comparison - Roots compressors typically only have efficiencies of about 50-60%, a 30% improvement over that would put us up to ~78%, where a very good (but already existing) compressor would perform. Nevertheless, if we can get efficiencies in the 90% range, that would truly be a game changer. As a postscript, there are many different compressor designs for a very wide range of flow rates and pressure ratios. No one single design, Lontra's being no exception, will be ideal for the whole spectrum of flow rates, pressure ratios and other special operating conditions, like compressing corrosive/abrasive media or others requiring oil-free compression.

I think you want all pumps larger, not smaller. If you make a piston pump narrow, you decrease the surface area that needs sealed, but you decrease the volume of air compressed. Volume is cubed, while surface area is squared, so the sealing efficiency goes up exponentially with size. The one thing I'd be concerned with this new pump design, is pulsation or frequency. You'd need a flywheel to dampen it, or multiple compressor elements, since it would act like a reciprocating piston oscillating between peak torque and zero torque input every revolution. There'd also be an issue of the chamber opening up to the discharge port, that pressurized air from whatever the discharge port was connected to would try to flow back into the chamber unless the discharge port only open once peak pressure has been realized in the chamber.

Neat solution 👍. Add it to a hydrogen internal combustion engine from JCB and you have an eco friendly source of compressed air for off grid or on site applications. Just have a think 🧐

@incognitotorpedo42

Жыл бұрын

Hydrogen ICE is not eco friendly.

@lesliecarter4295

Жыл бұрын

@@incognitotorpedo42 wrong! See Harry’s Farm latest KZread video on JCB’s development of hydrogen engines. Then admit you are spreading FUD.

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6:40 The small diameter of a bicycle tire pump is not to minimize leakage. The design is about matching the force that the average or below average person would be comfortable exerting. The length of stoke is based on the required amount of pressure needed.

Good job, pointing out the need to have better compressor efficiencies.

You are good with detail research 🙏

Having spent 2½ decades working in an industry that required a working air compressor for every minute the shop was running, and because of that fact, schooling myself on the workings of the different air compressors in the shop, I could see immediately how the design you're talking about would be a massive improvement as far as efficiency, necessary maintenance, and savings in energy consumption, lower downtime, and higher productivity. This I could see and tell JUST from my self-taught understanding of the various things involved. No college kid, here. Even my kids didn't get to be college kids. How others with degrees from B.S. to M.B. that should be switching over the rest of or all of their air compressors can't see that, I can't understand. 🤷‍♀️

CAS is literally a way to store energy as well. A battery. Such an increase in efficiency would dramatically improve the already attractive economics of CAS.

When I worked as a sand blaster, long ago, I used a number of different kinds of compressors, some ancient reciprocating compressors, some kind of turbine compressor, several screw type compressors and one truly unique device. It was a V-Eight gas engine, with half the cylinders used for power and half for the compressing. You would think that would be brilliant...it was not. Seems a car engine never develops that much compression without the combustion cycle so it was the weakest compressor I ever had to use. Good to see the idea actually tried though.

Reminds me of the Astron Omega 1 engine. The intake part of the engine, that is. It's a pair of gears that counter rotate, except one has only one gear tooth while the other only has one tooth gap. The air gets trapped and compressed just like in this compressor.

I think its great we still have some people that are thinking out side the box and can come up with new ideas.

Roots superchargers are used in many performance cars. I'm sure the hot rod community would love to see this technology come to superchargers.

I did and it's genuine genius Thech. And easy to work with

My goodness but the production values of these videos is superb...

Fantastic review. Thank you