Ulmo is the Valar who sang water into being, but Melkor was the one who caused rain, clouds, steam, ice etc through his discord, which makes Ulmo realize the absolute genius of Eru Illuvatar.

@MerkhVision

2 ай бұрын

Another proof of Eru’s ultimate plan and the demonstration of his words that Melkor’s discord would be turned to greater good in the end!

The Cult of Heracles became a big thing during the Hellenistic era, and continued strong through the Antiquity, until eclipsed by Mithras, Sol Invictus, and Christianity. Hercules was not one of the original big Olympians, but he was way more popular than some of them. Tulkas = Hercules works pretty well, also in the sense that Tulkas was not one of the 'original' Valar, but an add-on.

Eru is probably not down with incest so Nessa and Orome are not spouses. Instead she is the wife of Tulkas. If you are looking for a good time in Valinor, this is the couple you're looking for, if you can keep up. They are the fastest runners in Arda. She dances. He tells dad jokes and beats up Dark Lords. Orome is married to Yavanna's younger sister, Vana. She is the ever young Snow White of the Valar. I see Vana as more into larks, starlings, and sparrows, and Manwe specializing in eagles (of course), condors, hawks, and other birds of prey. A major differentiation between the Olympians and the Valar is the source of their fallibility. Zeus and Co. are prone to all of the evils and vices of humanity. The Olympians are always in competition with each other. Envy runs rampant. This is not so with the Valar. The Powers are exemplars of teamwork. Collaboration is an important difference that sets Aule apart from all of his pupils. Their flaws are also born out of love. Did bringing the Firstborn to Aman keep them safe from Melkor? Yes. Did it prevent them from fulfilling their roles are sub-creators of Middle Earth and becoming mentors and older cousins to Men? Also yes. Was making a paradise island that was hand wrought by immortals, with flora from immortal lands, and indeed halfway to the immortal lands and giving it to mortal men a great idea? Perhaps not in hindsight, but it is the kind of mistake a loving yet indulgent parent might make. This is in stark contrast to Zeus, who is not particularly fond of humans unless they are hot and female. He goes full Morgoth on Prometheus for giving humans fire. Never go full Morgoth.

@TolkienLorePodcast

2 ай бұрын

Brain crossed wires again, dang it! 🤣

I do believe that Tolkien took themes from the Greek and Latin classics, but not systematically. He would probably have said they were glimpses of the "true myth" i.e. the Christian story. As examples: The Nazgul's pursuit of Frodo has strong similarities to the pursuit of Orestes by the Furies. Just as Orestes invokes the protection of Athena, Frodo is saved by the Elves' song to Elbereth. (Aeschylus, The Furies) Gandalf's description of the beacons of Gondor echoes Clytemnestra's lavish account of the beacon-chain that tells her Troy has fallen. (Aeschylus, Agamemnon) The Wargs in The Hobbit are set on fire by Gandalf's pine-cones. In The Bacchae by Euripides, the Maenads carry fire in their hair. Their emblem is a stick tipped by a pine-cone. In a book published in 1942 CS Lewis quotes from the Aeneid, to the effect Aeneas reassures his men that one day they will laugh to recall their sufferings. This is like Faramir saying to Frodo that some day they will re-tell their tales, "laughing at old grief". (A Preface to Paradise Lost).

What I know is that Tolkien's Pantheon is a mix that takes inspiration from different mythologies and religions. However, the greatest influence on Tolkien's work comes from Celtic, Germanic, Norse and Finno-Ugric mythologies.

@jonathonfrazier6622

2 ай бұрын

I know I'm nitpicking but Norse is merely a branch of Germanic.

I think Poseidon gets both the sea and horses because, in the pre-Homeric, Mycenean version of the pantheon, he seems to have been god of the underworld (and Hades doesn't show up). The sea is an underworld-like realm, going down deep and getting dark and mysterious, and being dangerous to life. Poseidon is also famously "earthshaker," the source of earthquakes, very suitable to a god of the underworld--and horses are a very important animal that easily connect with earthquakes. Just stand nearby when even one horse goes galloping by, and you'll feel a bit of an earthquake.

Yvanna created the trees and plants and other flora, but after Aule created the Dwarves, she realized that her creations could not protect themselves from the Dwarven Axes, and asked Eru Illuvatar to allow her to create the Ents, as Guardians of the Trees. Melkor also uses Ungoliant to destroy the Two Trees, but through that, the Sun and Moon are created.

@MerkhVision

2 ай бұрын

Your last sentence is another demonstration in action of what Eru meant when he said that Melkor’s discord would be turned to a greater good in the end!

Thanks for making this!

In origin, Dionysus appears to be a god of altered states of consciousness--drunkenness, frenzy, vision, insanity. I'd say you got it right when you suggested a matchup to Lorien, though their personalities are as unlike as Manwe and Zeus.

From my limited knowledge of Indoeuropean gods, it seems that Nienna is the most original character among the Valar. The Greeks had two gods of war, and Nienna who transmutes sorrow into wisdom is much more profound than both of them.

I would have associated the gods of middle earth with the ancient Norse gods more than Greek gods. Interesting perspective on this. Thanks for sharing!

Poseidon created horses during his attempt to woo Demeter. That's where the horse and Poseidon connection comes in. By the time he succeeded though he didn't like Demeter anymore.

@TolkienLorePodcast

2 ай бұрын

Typical Greek deity 🤣

If you're wiling, I think a comparison of the Valar to the Norse pantheon would be very interesting.

@TolkienLorePodcast

2 ай бұрын

It would, but I’m sadly even weaker on Norse mythology lol

Zeus is extremely associated with eagles.

Saruman is the closest to Hermes.

@David.Bowman.

2 ай бұрын

Gandalf is more like Hermes

Given that Poseidon is connected to horses and the sea, it is interesting wave in the ford of rivendell that destroys the Nazgul is horse-shaped. It would be interesting, if that was inspired by Poseidon.

@Gandalf_the_Gold

2 ай бұрын

It was Gandalfs touch lol

@hendrikm9569

2 ай бұрын

@@Gandalf_the_Gold I am very much aware of that. However, that is a watsonian (in universe) explanation, while the interest of my comment way doylist (interested in the intention of the author). And Gandalf being the in universe reason for the horses in the water doesn't in any way contradict Tolkien maybe being inspired by Poseidon to connect water and horses. I'm sorry if my original comment wasn't clear in that regard, but I hope that my intention is now more clear. Have a nice day :)

@Gandalf_the_Gold

2 ай бұрын

@@hendrikm9569 you have a good day too friend just making sure it was clear lol you know how us nerds are

@hendrikm9569

2 ай бұрын

@@Gandalf_the_Gold Sure, no problem :D By the way, cool profile picture.

@Gandalf_the_Gold

2 ай бұрын

@@hendrikm9569 thank you 🤟🏻

Nessa is actually Orome’s sister, not spouse. Lol Vana is Orome’s wife, while Nessa’s husband is Tulkas. Just wanted to prevent any confusion.

@TolkienLorePodcast

2 ай бұрын

Yeah, I knew they were connected but in my rush I crossed wires in my brain lol

2:15 Zeus is associated with the eagle many times. As for Poseidon and horses, it was likely he was originally simply a title of Zeus at one point before the Greeks started writing, and at that time the horse would've been considered a staple of the nobility, but this probably evolved into the idea of horses as a mode of transportation which then made the Greeks think of him in association with boats as "sea-horses" which probably led to association with the sea, likely by also being conflated with Pontus. Orome is clearly meant to be more like Odin or just the leader of the wild hunt in various folklore. Tulcas is clearly just Thor/Herakles.

@RyanControl

2 ай бұрын

Yep. And the connection between Zeus/Jupitar and the eagle is something that Tolkien, as a frequenter of the pub "Eagle and Child" would have been aware of.

Melian is closest to Aphrodite.

I liked your insights but didn't Tolkien draw from Norse Mythology more than Graeco-Roman? Are there any similarities to the Norse pantheon?

@TolkienLorePodcast

2 ай бұрын

Quite likely, but A) I’m not well versed in Norse mythology and B) that wasn’t the Patreon assignment ;)

I think Hestia corresponds to Nienna. Yes, Hestia and Dionysis were the ones who traded off being the 12th and 13th Olympian. Heracles / Hercules = Tulkas. Orome = Master of the Wild Hunt. Vaire = the three Fates. Nessa = pacifist Artemis. Dionysis = Lorien. Vana = Idun of the Norse pantheon.

I am pretty sure Hades was also a judge as he had final say over what part of his realm the dead went to and enforced his laws, he was also the god of wealth since his realm included everything under the Earth such as mineral wealth. Lastly the Ancient Greeks kind of believed in reincarnation even if it doesn't seem to be a formal part of their religion.

To me, the parallels between the Valar and the Norse gods are at least as strong as those to the Greek. Tulkas is almost a 1:1 equivalent to Thor. Sure he's missing a hammer and an affinity with thunder, but those are only the most superficial aspects of Thor's character. In myth, Thor is usually just a friendly, cheerful figure who's really good at wrestling and drinking, and is lots of fun at parties. He's not strongly associated with war except as a protector of humanity against the forces of chaos, but he is probably the greatest warrior of the gods. The near-omniscient Mandos presiding over the halls of the dead and serving as a judge isn't as direct a parallel, but it is reminiscent of Odin. In myth, he has greater foresight and wisdom than any of the other gods, does sometimes act as a judge, and presides over the hall of the slain. The fact that because elves don't die of natural causes, the majority of the elves in Mandos's halls were killed in battle only increases the comparison. Orome hunting monsters in the forests of Middle Earth reminds me of Freyr, and there's plenty more. For me, the fact that Tolkien borrowed so much from so many different sources and strung them together into a cohesive narrative is one of the most interesting aspects of the legendarium. Creating a complex and quite realistic world using elements of various world mythologies and actual history was no small feat.

@TolkienLorePodcast

2 ай бұрын

I’m sure you’re right, but I’d have to get a lot more familiar with Norse mythology to speak intelligently about that 😅

There is a strong parallel to Athena in the song Gildor's elves sing to Varda: Gilthoniel! O Elbereth! Clear are thy eyes and bright thy breath! "Clear (or bright)-eyed" was an epithet of Athena. In the first draft it was "cold thy breath". This could refer to Athena being the foster-grandmother-in-law of Boreas, the North Wind (who carried off Oreithia, daughter of Erechtheus, legendary founder of Athens who was fostered by Athena). More broadly Athena is the protector of Greek heroes such as Odysseus and Perseus and (especially) the anti-hero Orestes.

4:00 Bruh, Tolkien literally translated/wrote Sir Orfeo: another version of Orpheus from Middle English Times.

@TolkienLorePodcast

2 ай бұрын

I know, but it’s been…a decade or more since I read it lol

People say he's a cheap rip off of Wagner, I'd like to see your thoughts on that

@TolkienLorePodcast

2 ай бұрын

Unfortunately I’m not familiar enough with Wagner to comment usefully lol.

Zeus is associated with eagles

16:18 *cough Goldberry cough cough *

@TolkienLorePodcast

2 ай бұрын

Goldberry isn’t exactly part of a pantheon though.

@David.Bowman.

2 ай бұрын

Maybe not an Elvish but a Hobbity one!

@David.Bowman.

2 ай бұрын

@@TolkienLorePodcast actually, more seriously, do you think there’s anything etymologically connected between the comparison you made Hestia/Este? H - EST - IA. I remembered I had thought something similar about the Roman version Vesta before.

@TolkienLorePodcast

2 ай бұрын

The only thing I’m sure of is that Tolkien would call it a coincidence 😂

@David.Bowman.

2 ай бұрын

@@TolkienLorePodcast lol I’m sure he would! I just find it interesting looking for ‘real-world’ translations of words and names and it’s surprising what you can (possibly, nothing to confirm!) find that fit with other things. Especially if you use the older names from previous versions I.e Manwe, was Manawenuz. Which could break down to Manna-Venus: fruit/food of Venus. That could be taken as ‘child of Venus’. Venus had a child: Cupid/Eros. The father was Mars. Obviously that bares no resemblance to Tolkien’s order of Valar! But if you keep going: Cupid was the god of (several types of) desire. A less lusty form of desire is ‘to aspire’. ‘Aspire’ comes from Latin ad-spiro, and the ‘spiro’ means to breathe/blow. So we’re back to wind and air! Maybe it’s relevant, maybe it’s not… and there’s no one alive to confirm anything! But it is good fun trying to make these connections.

Is Mondos in the Silmarillion? Please forgive my ignorance.

@beatleblev

2 ай бұрын

Yes, Mandos is in the Silmarillion as is the Lorien mentioned in the video. The gardens of Lorien are Aman is the home of Irmo and Este. Irmo (the Vala of dreams and visions) and his "older" brother Namo (Judge of the Valar) are also known by the places they call home: Lorien and Mandos respectively.

@animalmother8037

2 ай бұрын

@@beatleblev ok good, I read great tales of middle earth recently and fall of Numenor. If Mandos was in any of those I probably breezed through. This will be my first time reading the Silmarillion. Thank you

@beatleblev

2 ай бұрын

@@animalmother8037 He will show up in the Valaquenta. The Silmarillion is five different works in one compendium. The Ainulindale is first and is Tolkien's creation myth. The Valaquneta is next and it describes all of the Valar. It gives context as to why Frodo calls out to Elbereth or Varda as she is known in the Undying Lands. Then there is the Quenta Silmarillion, or as I like to call it Noldor Elves behaving badly. Then there is the Akalabeth that you have already read when you read The Fall of Numenor. The book ends with "Of the Rings of Power" which explains the events of the Second and Third Age that lead up to the War of the Ring. Happy Reading!

@animalmother8037

2 ай бұрын

@@beatleblev thanks a lot! Very excited. Was always very intimidated by this book until I read books published much later for some reason. Thanks for the heads up and info.

@chefitaly7339

2 ай бұрын

Absolutely, he plays many large rolls and a friendly his prophecy/doom set on the noldor exiles governs in some way the whole story

Isn't the statue of Zeus the Romans putin the temple referred to as an "Abomination of Desolation" in the book of Daniel?

@pwmiles56

2 ай бұрын

It was the Seleucid Greeks, not the Romans.

@Crafty_Spirit

2 ай бұрын

That is very ironic considering Jesus' iconography was likely inspired by Greek sculpting and imagery - that beard envokes trust because it's familiar

no.

I think the biggest similarity between the greek Pantheon and the Valar is that they're both a pantheon in a way, instead of Eru just being on his own. After that, there are some similarities between some of them, given their stories, abilities or governed realms, but that's pretty much it. To me it looks like Tolkien certainly, 100% took initial inspiration from the Olympian gods(and other pantheons as well), but then applied his Christian faith and lots of his own imaginative special sauce and moved quite along from it. Oh well, you said basically the same at the end 😂 One thing I might add, is that there's one way Zeus is connected to creation and life, it's that he used to get lots (and I mean LOTS) of goddesses and women pregnant 😋

The greek pantheon does not spring to mind first when I think of the Valar, but rather the old israelic pantheon. Manwe is more like YHVH (Jehova), which also is a wind god. While Eru is more like El, the overgod of the ancient semitic pantheon. By the same token Varda, Manwes consort is similar to Asherah the queen of heavens of the ancient semites. Therein also lies another dissimilarity. Hera, the wife of Zeus is the goddess of marriage, women and menstruation. There are similarities as well. The axis Aule and Hephaistos for example. The main difference is Melkor! Not only does his name sound semitic, it seems to be like מֶלֶךְ which means god and king at the same time. Furthermore the gods of the hellenes had no adversary among them. They all fought with each other endlessly, but Zeus was the final arbiter on all matters. The other gods did not like this at times but all abided by his decisions. He was their king.