I have a small turbo 4.8 Silverado built for towing so I have some insight lol. I would say that a properly sized turbo will outperform a blower in almost every scenario. There is a reason why the Ecoboost, hurricane motors, and every modern diesel uses turbo for low end torque. The only benefit is that instant torque but I can make 10psi by 2200 rpm which is more than enough to move 15k pounds. Great video again!

BOTH! I'd love to see a twin-charged setup. The SC would just be creating a pressure ratio, so adding 5-10psi to the inlet with the SC at 5psi would net 11-18psi but with instant torque.

@ThePaulv12

8 ай бұрын

That's what I was going to say.

@richardholdener1727

8 ай бұрын

that video is up we did a compound on the 3800 v6

@hotdog9262

7 ай бұрын

seems like a lot of work and cost for very little in return. probably harder on the engine plus and reliability drops

Throttle response in a motorsport application. A linear torque curve towards the lower rpms helps with predictable throttle at lower speed corners. What does that you ask? A SUPERCHARGER!😊

@richardholdener1727

8 ай бұрын

in road racing you spend very little time in the lower part of the curve

@sjhudon386

8 ай бұрын

​@richardholdener1727 Throttle control is definitely an issue and can be nonlinear in turbo cars. Sometimes fun but can also be annoying.

Honestly i would rather the turbo... always

@Russell_and_Rosko

8 ай бұрын

Word!

Have you thought about compounding the turbo WITH the supercharger? Get the best of both. You did this with the 3.8 and i was impressed, so I think a bunch of us would love to see you try it with this set-up, with this engine. Jyst a thought. Many thanks for all your work.

@rorieenterprisesllc835

8 ай бұрын

Exactly what I was about to post lol

@thewacokid0000

8 ай бұрын

The mechanical complexity just isn't worth the hassle. A properly sized turbo is better in every way without the complexity of building a bypass-type setup.

@erikmcmillan1947

8 ай бұрын

@thewacokid0000 That really isn't the point. The point is to learn if it provides lower end torque for towing while providing the higher end power as well. After all, that was the question proposed and the entire reason for the test to begin with.

@thewacokid0000

8 ай бұрын

​@@erikmcmillan1947the turbo wins for towing too

@richardholdener1727

8 ай бұрын

already done on the 3800-look at those results

Every person I know that tried the eBay turbo route had to pull it back out very shortly afterwards. Sometimes the turbo went out and manifolds were always cracking. Maybe the supercharger has better reliability. Maybe.

We just went through this - the wife has a 2000 Tacoma with the 3.4L. We originally supercharged it with the Magnuson kit, 7th injector, etc - and it *sucked* to have to control charge temps by blowing fuel through the blower when running it at ~8-9 pounds. Recently after a 3000 mile road trip towing, trying to drive around the inevitable pinging (even with the timing controller to pull timing), we decided to go turbo. A GTX 3071R at 6 pounds is SO MUCH BETTER IN EVERY WAY. It spools low enough it doesn't matter. It makes more power. It can make *more* power without any worry of pinging thanks to having an intercooler. There is no comparison. Turbo every time over a roots blower. EVERY. TIME.

@midnight347

8 ай бұрын

Sounds like that blower isn't very good must be a non intercooler kit to have that much issues at 8-9 psi? Either that or you're running crap fuel probably both. When you have an intercooler and good cooling system this isn't an issue. It depends on the application some applications have awesome options for those kinds of blowers some don't.

@midnight347

8 ай бұрын

You can have a positive displacement blower with an intercooler too in the right application. Like I said this isn't an issue in every scenario. You're comparing an intercooler turbo setup against a non intercooler blower setup. Not even close to a fair comparison...turbo is going to make more power at any given boost level given they're the same size on same engine etc. That isn't a secret. It will never have instant response like a positive displacement blower. No matter how it's sized it will never have that ever. It also changes the exhaust sound. Turbo isn't always the answer for everyone and every build.

@thewacokid0000

8 ай бұрын

@@midnight347 it was non-intercooled, yes. That's how the TRD kit works for the Tacoma. Fuel was fine. The 5VZ-FE doesn't use the knock sensors below 3000 RPM and because the MAF was pre-blower, it didn't measure the charge temps at all...so it would ping if you loaded it up heavily below 3000 RPM. Even with timing pulled and using extra fuel for cooling the charge, it wasn't enough. The response of the turbo is fast enough it doesn't matter. Even if the supercharger was intercooled (and I did look into how to hack one into the system), the turbo would win, especially up at 7500' where we live.

This is a great video, but most people want to tow under 3000 rpm due to engine noise and comfort in the vehicle. I know that it is very difficult to dyno that low, but I would really like to see the difference between horsepower/torque between 2,000-3000 rpm level.

You already know my choice. TURBO BABY!

I appreciate this channel more than words can describe. Please don’t ever stop making these

once your towing a laggy turbo is not as noticeable because its always spooled and you spend more time in gear so it doesn’t matter as much if its not instant imo a turbo is better for towing but im basing this on laggy diesel’s

@NBSV1

8 ай бұрын

Plus the turbo should be more efficient so less heat the cooling system has to deal with.

@randysullivan5723

8 ай бұрын

I tow all the time with a turbo lq4 . Sized right turbo is perfect. But most like to over turbo and over cam then blame the turbo for lag .

@bill2178

8 ай бұрын

@@randysullivan5723 im not a turbo expert but its almost torture talking to people about turbos tuning and engines theres just so much bad information being circulated

This is quite literally the video that i’ve been needing to see. I have an m90 blower i got from the junkyard for like $80 and have been debating with whether or not I should find a way to retrofit it to my application or run a cheap turbo setup. Thank you for this video. It is EXACTLY what i’ve been needing. And if you do actually see my comment i’d love to get your thoughts on the type of turbo i might get. I have a 1999 explorer 5.0 and really just want to wake up the motor a little to make it more drivable. I never really get the motor past 3,000 rpm, so i’ve been debating with my father about the size of turbo. I think it’d be better to get a physically smaller turbo that’ll max out around 4,000 rpm in order to reduce lag as much as possible since this isn’t a racecar. I want it to still drive like a daily since that’s what it is. I just want neck-snapping torque down low since like i said earlier i never really take it past 3,000 anyways. I’ve also heard that 302’s have a flaw where they like to commit self forever sleep at 500 hp. So i was thinking of running relatively low boost at around 5-8 psi in order to keep from risking the motor as it is a daily and I don’t want to be rebuilding the engine every other weekend. Your thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated as I hear your a lifelong 302 enthusiast. 🙂

@chipcurrey653

8 ай бұрын

So what you're saying is you're never actually going to do anything?

@greenbassboosts8872

8 ай бұрын

The supercharger wins because you already bought it

I'd always choose the turbo over the supercharger. Back when I was in my 20's I built myself a 85' Daytona turbo Z and I've never gotten over how engines run with turbo boost. Now that I'm 51 i want to build a V8 of some type with turbo boost, hopefully I'll be able to do it before I'm dead. It's all that I ask for.

With the right supercharger for the application id choose a twin screw roots style supercharger over the turbo for the instant torque and awesome hp they make if i had the option but in this video id go with the cheap turbo setup but you cant beat the instant torque of a blower

I’d enjoy an M122 blower over that M90. Yeah, I know the $$ blows it out of the running. Turbo is the all around winner in my opinion. Thank you for all your efforts sir!

I'm still amazed by what you can get from an NA 4.8. Under 300ci. Much rather a blower. Richard, I'm predicting the holdener tax soon on M90’s

@joel89039

8 ай бұрын

Good thing they made millions of them! I will give you a gen 3 blower haha

@Matp345

8 ай бұрын

@@joel89039 I used to have a pile of gen 2's under my workbench. Scrapped all the high mileage ones and sold the decent ones for pennies.

@toob247

8 ай бұрын

From bonevilles to thunderbird sc. Billions and billions served. Mmm french fries.

@Matp345

8 ай бұрын

@@toob247 hair dryers, I used to call them

@johngilbanni5891

8 ай бұрын

@@toob247 man a McRib sounds good right now

Richard... not just a 8.1 but a 8.8 with a turbo.. Thats how i define torque 😁

@richardholdener1727

8 ай бұрын

even better

Can't wait to see real world feedback on how the hurricane engines do towing. They are putting some good hp/cid out of those little turbo motors.

The turbo is definitely more efficient. But as Richard said, there are other considerations. For example, packaging might be a concern. Or the sound of the exhaust. Or maybe you just like the whine of a blower. Do what works for you, and ignore the naysayers.

Do you have a fuel flow meter on your setup? It would be interesting to see how much more fuel the supercharger uses for the same power output vs the turbo.

I think everyone would have guessed what would happen the ebay turbos are cheap hp and are really entry level performance and once you have it set up putting on a pulsar s400 upgrade later is still make a great performance increase great video Richard

I have a 5.3 Sierra that I tow with and I'm looking for more power (especially through the mountains). I was going to get the Truck Norris kit, but I think I'll go with a supercharger instead. Mostly because the supercharger can help overcome the thin air at high altitudes.

Pickles.. finally something I'm in to

The turbo but I wouldn't blame anyone for taking the supercharger it would probably feel better but surely the turbo would get better mpg

@shadowopsairman1583

8 ай бұрын

Under boost it doesn't matter regardless, turbo vehicles get worse mileage than na vehicles

@james10739

8 ай бұрын

@shadowopsairman1583 well ya but the supercharged one will always get worse milage

What is the price per hp? Total system price, intake manifolds, intercoolers, exhaust tubing, wastegates, everything, for both. That is the question that will answer this for most people. I can swap that blower onto an engine, a turbo? I'd need to brush up on my welding skills or buy a lot of clamps.

Shoot I daily a not cheap tvs on my coyote. I've had em all and this rules the road and the strip for me....

Jegs has a vortec top end kit for sbc. Can you test this on a sbc 305 with maybe an ebay turbo? I love your content and you seem to be one of the few people to take the time to really find the products for the budget minded diyers. Thank you!

Thanks for making this video. Hopefully this doesnt dry up the supply of cheap m90s! People like to talk bad about the m90, because a there are other ways to make more power. I chose to put one on my j series honda because the exhaust is already done for an na setup, the gen v blower was $100 from the wrecking yard, and the adapter plates are pretty easy to make. Plus the blower has separate oil so no separate lines are needed. If it was trying to go as fast as possible, sure a turbo is probably better. But for a fun street car, i bet 350 whp in a 90s civic will be pretty good.

I will take option C. - Cheap Chinesium turbo from VSR

I’m waiting for the super Richie 2x M90 install kit!!!🎉

Fuel injected turbo, carb blower. The only problem with this test is yer testin at a higher rpm than anyone will ever take off which is where ya need the torque. So down at 1500 rpm. Unless yer racing with a trailer, which I have done, no one takes off with a trailer at or above 3000. Great video and very interestin to see how much difference there is because of the power loss. Thank you.

@midnight347

8 ай бұрын

This is the problem with this kind of test. Turbo is never going to have instant response like a blower no matter how it's sized. It will still take a second to get into boost from the time you hit the go pedal, unlike the blower. The exhaust sound is different too. Some prefer the sound with a positive displacement blower vs a turbo.

That blower looks cooler on top of that intake every time i see it! But the turbo's gotta be the victor if we're thinking with our brains/wallets & not our hearts. Thanks as always, richard! You da man.

🔔😎 Blower. Mechanical roots, or scroll type. Even a Vortec type belt driven supercharger. Strictly because it's easier to install as per fitment hassel of turbo.

Installed a 01 lighting motor in my f150 4x4. Nice Torque 😊

I've towed both ways. Ill always chose a turbo over a blower, as long as the turbo is sized properly for the application. Pulling a 24' enclosed trailer with a 500rwhp Harley Davidson F150 from Ohio to Orlando ruined the appeal of blower whine for me.

the ebay GT35 turbo is good for 600hp. a turbo that small would spool off idle on an engine as "big" as a 4.8 .. Turbo all the way, even when towing a turbo has an easier life, and turbos like a bit of load to make boost. Im a big turbo fan tho, blower cars, to me, always feel boring, they drive like a bigger NA motor, yes its instant but you dont get that lovely woosh and surge of torque as a gloriously oversized big single turbo comes on line and clocks in for work.

Both! Compound boost!! Let's test it

@NBSV1

8 ай бұрын

Not worth all the extra complexity. Especially since it isn’t like the turbo is going to be laggy enough to cause problems.

@richardholdener1727

8 ай бұрын

I did that on a 3800 v6-that vid is up

Wouldnt a turbo come on boost faster under the load of towing or hauling than when not? Similar to brake boosting.

@richardholdener1727

8 ай бұрын

yes

I like the blower look, but where do I get an intake to do the M90 on a 5.3? You made a special plate to mount the M90 blower on a tunnel ram intake. Is that the only way to mount the M90? Very interested in you comments. And yes, a blower is much easier to install than a turbo for most people simply due to the need for routing tubing and the necessary welding. But anything can be done with determination. Keep up the great content.

Richard not cheap It's inexpensive haha great videos keep them coming

The m90 curve in dead flat great for towing

🥇🥇🥇 Back drop 👏👌 I think you could run 8-9 on a 48 wo ic and it won’t make as much of difference. At least on my 7875 I’m drove and made a couple licks (10psi) park and feel the charge pipe into the ic and it not even be warm. I know that’s not data but I can’t remember my supra ever being cool to the touch going in the ic. Sup rode around at 18 though apples to pickles I guess

Turbos are amazing

Turbo pulling and drag. Heavy load OR up a hill at 3500 RPM turbo will build much more boost/power. Supercharger restricted by rpm.

Seen them ebay turbos last more than not. Seen a junkyard Detroit diesel one be screwed unless more money spent to work it for higher rpms

If your gonna compare the 2 4.8Ls and an 8.1L, you should include the total weight as they go on the dyno!

@richardholdener1727

8 ай бұрын

I don't have a scale

Richard you should test a turbo ls with holley hi ram with the tick intercooler no water vs with water and see the intake temp difference/hp difference

Always a turbo. Unless they aren't allowed or don't fit.

A properly sized turbo can beat out a supercharger in every application i can think of, but especially towing. Turbos love engine load and heat

@midnight347

8 ай бұрын

It won't beat it out on exhaust sound and response. No matter how it's sized it will never have INSTANT response like a positive displacement blower will. They aren't the answer for everyone. There are more things to factor besides which one makes which peak power.

Water to water intercooler from zzp on m90 make much more power and even up your lines. Be a good test while you have all this together get a even short stack zzp

@richardholdener1727

8 ай бұрын

we tried one already

On a gas motor Id rather have the blower for the low speed pull off , Can you imagine trying to pull off on a hill with trailer with a turbo gas motor? tje blower will pick up power with a chilled charge just like a turbo will.

Right on

Will he blame squirrels

@jaydubb71

8 ай бұрын

LMAO

turbo set up is def better imo

all this talk of apples and oranges has me hungry for boost

Please put m90 supercharger on vortec 4200 🙏

I’d like to see this same comparison with am LSA blower.

It would be cool to put the little blower on a 292 6cyl and see how it does.

Did you use the 8.1 with this super charger 🔌? And what about a gen 6 454 ?? Or a k24 or a j35? Or a 30 or 3.2 ? Or a b18 non vtec then a b18 vtec my mind is racing 😅😊

What about both ? GT45 sending air to the m90 which then sends it to the motor. Compound charged for cheap !

@richardholdener1727

7 ай бұрын

see the compound 3800 v6 test video

I'm only here for the apples\pickles comparison.

@richardholdener1727

8 ай бұрын

it is the latest craze

Who tows with engine speeds of nearly 6000 RPM? I think you should be checking power at 2500 RPM.

@richardholdener1727

8 ай бұрын

who runs wot at 2500 rpm? the power curve was provided to show what else is waiting for you when you are not towing

I'm curious about an M90 on a Jeep 4L.

Centrifugal SC please

How about blowing that turbo into the supercharger??? That's the ticket!

@richardholdener1727

8 ай бұрын

that video is up on the 3800 v6

By chance did you measure fuel consumption during either test? It would be real awesome if we could see the BSFC numbers for both combos as it would show the difference in efficiency of each combo. Combo wise, the turbo doesn't light until around 4500 on the dyno. I would think that's a real good time in a car with a loose converter and some gear. The blower would be great in something that needs the torque delivery in a predictable more of everything kind of way. That would be a pretty cool streetable setup but it's not going to have the fun factor that the turbo does when it lights. On the flip side, i'd be curious how that turbo combo would act towing a trailer. It would likely spool earlier, make a bunch of cylinder pressure, and push the rod bearings out of it.

@richardholdener1727

8 ай бұрын

turbo doesn't light til 4500 rpm?

@willrobb9520

8 ай бұрын

@@richardholdener1727 did you show the boost versus rpm of each combo? When I say the turbo didn't light i was looking at the shape of the torque curve and how dramatically it picks up and carries from 4-4500 to the end of the pull with the turbo. That's a combo that would hit hard in the car.

Remote turbo for stealth 😊

Question for Gen 6 454, vortech v7 ysi or procharger f1a best bang for buck? Please honest non biased opinion I'm a novice looking to put in a weekend car

@richardholdener1727

8 ай бұрын

I have no idea what the costs are on those blowers or what you are trying to accomplish.

Everybody thinks that a blower makes more torque than a turbo setup, and that is not my experience... and looking at the graphs, that is not your experience either.

@maxhorner2409

8 ай бұрын

I did not. Mainly cuz of the power drag. Have seriously thought bout puttin a turbo on my 99 Durango just cuz I know that it is more efficient at building power.

Funny we have the same daily driver, even same color. Mine is lifted and rolling on 35's though.

Even if the blower had an intercooler id like to see inlet temps after 5 pulls and I’d gather power output would be down a lot Vs turbo setup

@midnight347

8 ай бұрын

It depends on which blower you're talking about. Some of these modern blowers are pretty damn efficient. The 2650 tvs for example.

@anthonywhelan8373

8 ай бұрын

@@midnight347 why do you think they make intercoolers for those blowers

Ok i got a good question for you i just bought a 1969 chevelle with a 305 and a t5. Obviously that sucks so im looking for a junkyard ls engine and trans i want reliability and horsepower i was going towards a 6.0 and a turbo but what do you suggest I want to drive it as a daily driver and for fun

@richardholdener1727

8 ай бұрын

6.0Ls are harder to find and usually more expensive, but the 5.3L with a turbo is great combo too

Build your 408 LS engine with 10 to 1 compression and you will have more than enough torque to tow a car trailer in closed with fully loaded with everything you need and not have any problems

Have you done testing on a centrifugal supercharger? Something like a Vortech. It would be nice to see a comparison between a turbo and a roots blower and a centrifugal.

@richardholdener1727

8 ай бұрын

please see the videos where I compared roots, turbo, cent and twin screw on a mod ford, or a turbo, roots and cent on a b16 or a roots, turbo and cent on a ford 331.

rather just have a stock 8.1 in my tow rig

I wish u would build a 4.3 with an ebay turbo. I'm wanting to turbo charge my 98 awd bravada. Would like to see the possibility of it. 4.3 have no aftermarket help really. No heads, or cam that I can find that isn't 500 or more. There isn't any aftermarket fuel injection system either. All there is to buy is the mercruiser fuel intake system, and it's a cast iron intake.

@bill2178

8 ай бұрын

there is a mercruiser vortec intake and syclone manifolds and ebay turbos

@NBSV1

8 ай бұрын

Don’t the 4.3’s use a lot of the same parts as the 5.7’s? That should get you things like pistons, rods, bigger valves, valve springs, etc. A little cleanup and mild porting can help the stock heads. Unless you’re chasing max power you don’t really need a cam and other hard to find parts. Good pistons/rods would go a long way for durability. Otherwise it’s up to the turbo for making power. I think the HotRod guys were getting 400+ out of their 4.3 in the rotsun. Although it didn’t tend to stay running for long.

@robland6118

8 ай бұрын

Mainly looking for a cam and lifter set up that isn't 600 dollars. Wouldn't mind having a better set of heads. I know I can source whatever other parts I would need from the 5.7. Rods from the 5.7 wouldn't work and I would rather have an aluminum intake. The mercruiser is a cast iron intake.

@bill2178

8 ай бұрын

@@robland6118 the mercruiser is similar to the vortec but external injectors edelbrock makes a cam but if your going turbo just eun stock cam and if you want more power cobble a v8 in

The problem with the m90 is the throttle body placement could you actually use it without lots of modifications in a truck

@richardholdener1727

8 ай бұрын

that is an issue

Thanks!

How many thousands of miles is a Turbo good for before it needs a rebuild or replacement? (Journal Bearing or Ball Bearing.)

@randysullivan5723

8 ай бұрын

Keep in mind every tractor trailer you pass on the highway has one

@Strngr--

8 ай бұрын

I've had 2 turbos go out on 2 different dodge diesels. Both had 250k plus on the clock

@N-Lee

8 ай бұрын

@@Strngr-- 250k seems really good mileage if you ask me.

I don’t think that Blower would go in a real world LS vehicle. So turbo it is.

For a daily and towing id go with the m90, but for ANYTHING else go turbo

I’ve got a ly6 10:6 compression forged pistons and rods with valve reliefs 231/247 cam ls3 intake ls3 heads behind a 4l80e. What you think whp wise

@richardholdener1727

8 ай бұрын

If you have the stock rec-port heads, that combo made about 540-550 flywheel hp with stock pistons

@Lsx.jxan1

8 ай бұрын

@@richardholdener1727 they’re milled .10 with flat top pistons 10:6 comp

@Lsx.jxan1

7 ай бұрын

@@richardholdener1727 they’re flat tops I now have it milled .40 with 11:1 compression

The answer is always turbo

I would take the turbo you still have to buy the Holley intake which make the cost much higher the turbo is the winner

Turbo is better and has very low parasitic draw. But the supercharger is very sweet without the drag that it puts on the motor.

Hey what happened to the final data on that at AMR 500 I believe it was eBay turbo cheapy thing I was real curious and I haven't seen any updates on it

@richardholdener1727

5 ай бұрын

it flows enough to support 150 hp or so

@thejesusjunky

5 ай бұрын

@@richardholdener1727 150 stack or you know 150 plus what horsepower of the motor was making I'm thinking total a little motor on a little motor

How bout a twin M90 setup

@richardholdener1727

8 ай бұрын

coming

Turbos are the most efficient way to make power as they use waste exhaust to make power

4.8 with heads, 216ish cam, 70mm turbo would make more power than most know what to do with on the street

I'd still like to see a twin screw blower, driven by a turbo's exhaust turbine.

@Strngr--

8 ай бұрын

That's a lot of reciprocating mass for a turbine to move. If you could get it to work you'd have lag like no turbo has ever seen

@normanmadden

8 ай бұрын

@@Strngr-- True, but I want to measure the efficiency of the screw vs centrifugal compressor itself.

Turbo..........and 8.1.

Cleetus Mcfarland took off twin turbos from his coyote to go with a whipple charger instead. Too much lag trying to make 1000hp from a small motor on the street.

@richardholdener1727

8 ай бұрын

very easy to make 1000 hp with a Coyote with turbos and minimal lag

@sjhudon386

8 ай бұрын

@@richardholdener1727 Maybe he just had the wrong combination idk

I wonder how much boost can the m90 produce on a 2 litre diesel.

@richardholdener1727

8 ай бұрын

what na power?

@CrAzYDr1veR

8 ай бұрын

turbodiesel but m90 instead of turbo

Can you get a cheap eBay inter cooler and try it with a gt45 turbo

@richardholdener1727

8 ай бұрын

I have

Do you have a coil pack arching on # 7 cylinder??

@richardholdener1727

8 ай бұрын

nope-that is a wiring tag flapping in the wind

Blower. How much boost does that turbo make when it's not WOT. Blower every time even when not thinking about towing.

@richardholdener1727

8 ай бұрын

both can make boost at part throttle

was there arcing or what at the rear left coil? intro run looking again looks like loose plastic u do not specifically say blower in your graphs they look like na

@richardholdener1727

8 ай бұрын

piece of paper moving in the wind (dyno fans)

Kid had 2 Grand Prix gtp’s and I think they had a boost controller. Do you?

@richardholdener1727

8 ай бұрын

a 3800 Supercharged Grand prix doesn't have a boost controller-it has a roots blower

I went with a eaton m90 on my car that is normally turbo. Main reason, just to try something different kzread.info/dash/bejne/gH2fytCcmLaqZrw.htmlfeature=shared

Will that turbo setup run with stock injectors and stock fuel pump? If so I'm putting that on my 5.3!

@richardholdener1727

8 ай бұрын

you need more fuel

@kevinroberts781

8 ай бұрын

@@richardholdener1727 show us cheap ways to get more fuel!!!!!