The music from 100 years ago is better than today's music.

would love to have a copy of that roll for my own player piano

Those critiquing the tempo would do well to hear Roy Bargy's audio recording of this same rag, which he made for Victor records on March 18th, 1924 at the studio in Camden, New Jersey: kzread.info/dash/bejne/YoKdu5Wid5q6dLA.html Here is the discographical info for this recording: adp.library.ucsb.edu/index.php/matrix/detail/800000781/B-26856-Rufenready Victor's style/format of matrix numbering meant that the same title/tune by the same performer or group, would be under the same matrix number regardless of when the relevant recording sessions took place, with successive re-dos assigned higher take numbers. So Roy Bargy recorded multiple takes of this number, starting on August 31st, 1922 when he made 4 takes (1-4), and then again on March 18th, 1924, when he made 3 more takes (5-7), of which take 6 was cleared for release. I am pretty sure the fact that 7 takes were recorded and all but 1 rejected, was not Bargy's fault (although he *might* have actually messed up one of the takes), but more likely had to do with the Victor technicians not being able to get the proper piano sound / balance without distortion with their acoustic recording equipment. This is one reason so relatively little SOLO pop piano was recorded before electrical recording in the mid-20s (over a hundred sides WERE recorded; but this number was NOTHING compared to all the piano recordings that would come afterwards): The piano has such a rich and complex sonic spectrum that the acoustic recording equipment couldn't handle it (indeed, in the early cylinder recording days, most pianists had to POUND HARD with the recording horn SHOVED UP INTO THE SOUNDBOARD OF THE PIANO to get all the record-able notes in the middle of the piano to even come out!), so most solo piano commercially recorded pre-1925 were classical artists whose artistry it was considered important to capture for historical posterity, even if the audio wasn't too great. Pop/ragtime/jazz pianists generally got second-banana status to this, and especially to dance orchestras and brass bands, who formed the lion's share of pop recordings, either by themselves or accompanying singers. But the real virtuoso ragtimers of their day (especially, pre-1920s, white virtuosos) got at least a hearing with the recording companies (since after all, they were playing at a very high level and were often 'clean' players who made few or no mistakes and almost never needed a re-do due to wrong notes), and a few even got to record like Mike Bernard and Felix Arndt, and here, Roy Bargy. Finally, of course the huge popularity of the player piano and advent of handplayed 88-note rolls in the USA 1912-1929 or so meant that a great many pop pianists (hundreds) got to make rolls, and so making solo piano records was simply an afterthought, as the rolls were considered 'good enough' in those days and indeed even 'superior' to acoustic records.

I love this Best rendition on utube

Insane!

Great

In the piece, it is difficult to tell which dissonances are intentional, but on beat 2 in measure 47, shouldn’t there be a flat marking before the low F half-note in the bass? This would make it agree with the other F-flats, and also when the same chord (F-flat7) is used in measure 7. It sounds to me that the player plays an F-flat.

@andrewbarrett1537

2 жыл бұрын

Do you mean the transcriber's own measure numbering system? In that, measure 47 occurs at about 0:45 in the video and is an Eb7 chord with the 13th (C natural) in the melody. 47 is the 3rd bar of the 2nd theme (or "B theme") in the key of Ab major, so the Eb7 is of course the V7 chord.

@andrewbarrett1537

2 жыл бұрын

Now if you mean measure _43_ (one bar from the end of the A theme) then yes that IS an Fb7 (Ger+7) and indeed the lowest F written should be Fb, that is definitely a small mistake in the transcription.

Stravinsky didn’t have nuthin’ advanced on American Ragtime !

Im out off word...

I'm not the traffic police, but I still think it's too fast. Why does that offend you?

Too fast! Way too fast! Unnaturally fast! Unmusically too fast!

@KeithOtisEdwards

3 жыл бұрын

Who are you? The traffic police?

@andrewbarrett1537

2 жыл бұрын

While you're entitled to your opinion, I have a couple of pieces of counter-evidence for you. First, on the original roll label, this rag is described as "one-step", which was a fast march-like ragtime dance which was popular from 1914 thru the early 1920s and onwards. The following Victor record, "Good Scout" is a fine example of a typical one-step (in this case composed by Mel B. Kaufman), here played by the great banjoist Vess L. Ossman with orchestra: kzread.info/dash/bejne/nqypsKiYZ9Cbc9I.html Notice the tempo: it's approx. quarter = 144 in 2/4 time, or half = 144 in 2/2 or cut time. Victor and all other large record companies took great pains to record their instrumental pop dance music at what were considered PROPER dance tempos, since many phonograph end-users would use the phonograph for dancing in the living room! (This didn't necessarily cause the needle to skip unless people got too wild, since the old acoustic phonographs have a fairly heavy tonearm / reproducer which does not skip as easily as a modern turntable). Now, one could argue against playing a piece with so many SIXTEENTH NOTES (in 2/4) (or eighth notes in 2/2 or 4/4) this fast, EXCEPT there's also plenty of contrary-evidence that they DID indeed typically play this fast. Here's Mike Bernard playing his own rag "Blaze Away" (nothing to do with the Abe Holzmann march of the same name) in 1918. This is from his last solo piano recording session for Columbia, and I presume he would have considered this a one-step tempo at the time. Notice how preposterously fast it seems. Indeed, Bernard was well-known as one of the fastest ragtime pianists in New York (and winner of many early ragtime piano contests), so this recording should be considered the UPPER LIMIT of how fast most ragtime pianists then played. However, his technique is so superlative that he seems to have no technical problems with anything he does here, and gets all the notes out very clearly no matter the passage (this is also true of other ragtime virtuosi of the day like Luckey Roberts and Pete Wendling). This is ALSO about 140 BPM (if counted in two beats per bar, obviously double that if counted in four per bar): kzread.info/dash/bejne/qXqZ2qRroaXdodI.html Frankly, I HAVE heard recordings of OTHER pianists playing FASTER and I would consider anything in ragtime at a tempo above what Mr. Bernard plays here to be potentially unmusical, unless of course your name is "Art Tatum". Bernard manages to keep a good "feel" here while still playing fast. The faster one plays, the harder it becomes to maintain the 'feel' (pushing and pulling of the rhythms, of which but one manifestation is the evenness of the eighth notes).

@andrewbarrett1537

2 жыл бұрын

However, my FAVORITE piece of counter-evidence is Roy Bargy's AUDIO RECORDING for Victor of this same exact rag. Bargy was friends with Charley Straight and worked for him at the Imperial Music Roll Co. in Chicago 1919-1921, during which each individually, and in duet with each other and with other pianists, turned out some extremely fine and ahead-of-their-time roll arrangements. Here's the record (recorded in 1922 or 1924, I think): kzread.info/dash/bejne/YoKdu5Wid5q6dLA.html Now, the music roll of "Rufenreddy" was originally issued in about 1917 I think, two years before Straight met Bargy and joined the Imperial staff (in Fall 1919 I think, or maybe Summer). So it is really Straight's composition, and it sounds very much like all his other known ragtime compositions. I suspect Bargy really had nothing to do with the composition of this piece, published sheet music credit notwithstanding, and perhaps he worked out some kind of _trade_ with Straight where each took credit for some of the other's compositions for some reason (for example, Bargy's song "Santa Claus Blues" is credited to him on the original Imperial music roll issue, years before it was published; but on the published sheet music, the tune is actually credited to Charley Straight as composer!). In interviews, Bargy claimed he had composed both "Rufenreddy" and "Knice & Knifty" and Straight contributed only "ideas and criticisms", but this seems false given their early roll-release dates (several years before publication), which pre-date the pair ever meeting and are each on rolls played by Straight with composer credit given exclusively as Straight on the rolls. Although Straight is sadly known to have made NO solo piano audio recordings before his untimely death in 1940 (not even a test recording!), he FORTUNATELY is clearly audible behind ragtime singer Gene Greene on the exceedingly rare (near extinct) British Pathe records they made in 1912-1913 in England during their European tour. I don't have a listing in front of me but recall from memory they made something like SIXTY-FOUR recordings together on that trip(!!!). Mark Berresford has been spending decades compiling as many of these rare discs as he can track down for an eventual CD compilation release, and a handful of the tracks have already been reissued on other albums and online. The few that I've heard (including "Rag, Rag, Rag" and "Ragtime Soldier Man") prove that Straight REALLY DID play EXACTLY in the same style, live, in 1912-13 as his earliest QRS Autograph piano rolls dating 1914-1915, swing, tenths in the left hand, octaves with added notes in the right hand (which was typical for more advanced professional vaudeville pianists in those days), etc. So I see no reason to doubt he that he played all the POSSIBLE parts of all his hand-played piano rolls. After Imperial was swallowed up by QRS in 1922, and Straight started leading his own dance band in Chicago and arranging for it, his piano style changed markedly, with some of the older tricks and mannerisms retained BUT with the addition of even more advanced harmonies (which he was already starting to do at Imperial) and all manner of other 'twenties' pop and jazz figures, phrases and voicings. No doubt by 1926 or so, his piano style was profoundly influenced by the big-band charts he was writing, and one of his latest rolls, "(You Forgot to) Remember", an absolutely PHENOMENAL QRS roll, sounds like it could have been one of his dance band arrangements! Unfortunately, while his dance band made something like three dozen(?) recordings for various labels (including Paramount and Brunswick), Straight's PIANO is seldom even audible in the mix on the recordings, and he only takes a very few brief solos and breaks. Possibly the most audible(?) and longest(?) solo he takes (I haven't heard ALL of his dance band records yet), is on "Deep Henderson" here. What is interesting is how he starts out the solo a LOT like one of his rags from the late 'teens on the rolls, such as "A Dippy Ditty" or "Sweet Pickin's" etc. before veering off into a whole-tone riff to get the rest of the band to come in. The solo starts at 0:21 here. In my opinion, if you play Straight's rags (especially his unpublished piano roll rags) with THIS type of swing feel and phrasing, like in this very brief piano solo on the record, you are playing them RIGHT. Note also the tempo, and compare with the tempo of this roll. Note also how RELAXED he is, despite the fast tempo. All the great ragtime pianists of yesteryear played with this same level (or greater) of relaxation, no matter how fast the tempo, and had very good phrasing. This could make FAST tempos seem MEDIUM!: kzread.info/dash/bejne/eZWN08qqh66qnMY.html Anyway, getting back to Bargy's solo recording of "Rufenreddy", Bargy knew Straight personally and worked with him. So there is no doubt this is _A_ correct tempo, if not _THE_ correct tempo. Other than a few flourishes here and there, Bargy is still playing the same piece if not note-for-note exactly as on the roll (and sheet music). By all accounts, although his heyday they called Straight the "Paderewski of Ragtime", Bargy was an even greater virtuoso, and also more of a real jazz musician. So Bargy's tricks on his rolls and records are technically even harder and more sophisticated than what Straight does. So if you despair at not being able to play everything Bargy does on his records note-for-note, at least at that tempo, don't worry! He had massive hands that could reportedly reach around a 13th and was playing Liszt recitals at like 10 years old, and studying Debussy in college when Debussy was still (barely) alive and his 'radical' music was just starting to gain acceptance by the music establishment.

@KeithOtisEdwards

2 жыл бұрын

@@andrewbarrett1537 I have this from a Columbia LP recorded in the 1950s with Brennen Ernst performing on a concert grand, and it’s about the same tempo.

@andrewbarrett1537

Жыл бұрын

@@KeithOtisEdwards I would love to hear that LP! What is the title? I've never heard of it before. Is this Brennen Ernst the father or grandfather of the current day ragtime pianist?