Here is our full list of card draw spells ranked: i.imgur.com/EmGIMtq.jpeg

@Arcadious10

Жыл бұрын

Thank you for the list. I think the “group average” for rows 41-45 didn’t calc correctly. Also missing Super SSS tier Secret Rendezvous

@ericmilligan6603

Жыл бұрын

The group average on the last 4 is messed up

@surfinggarchomp2820

Жыл бұрын

Why are you guys so low on Mangara?

Seth knew he was gonna set the conversation on fire by bringing up hedron archive

@thoop6795

11 ай бұрын

I hate to say it but I agree with seth on hedron archive. Sacking it for 2 cards feels good every time. To be fair I build budget decks so Im biased.

If Richard was here we'd be talking about the actual only S tier card draw, Secret Rendezvous

@TheJannis1994

Жыл бұрын

Draw 6 for 3 mana ist busted

@jadegrace1312

Жыл бұрын

completely worthless card

@TheAlmightyGoiter

Жыл бұрын

one of my favorite cards, politics in commander is never utilized like it should be.

@brandonpetersen1135

Жыл бұрын

With sphinx, its 🤌

@felity1773

2 ай бұрын

​@@TheJannis1994 draw 6 for 3 mana isn't busted because you only get 3 of those cards and give an opponent the other 3... essentially netting you -1 advantage (because you had to spend a card on it)

Card draw like Read the Bones is often underrated in Commander. Phil's point about wanting to ramp hard and then have his card draw refill his hand is understandable, but I think it is a good idea to have your card draw work on it's own Mana Curve of sorts. If all your draw effects are 5+ mana, it means if you don't get your ramp going, or miss a land drop or two, you can get stranded accruing value for some turns. What is important is that you are getting a good "rate" on your card draw. Depending on the colors you are in, you want to be paying no more than 2 mana a card and ideally something like 1.25 mana a card. Read the Bones, Painful Truths, Night's Whisper, Light up the Stage, etc are essentially efficient "curve fillers" that make sure you continue to hit your land drops in the early game, and allow you double spell on later turns where you want to develop your board, but still want to gain cards. Also they can dig you into the larger X-draw spells so that when you are done ramping and setting up your aren't just hoping that the top of your deck is going to have the payoff.

@vds92

Жыл бұрын

I totally agree. Card draw should be diverse.

@Crunchatize_Me_Senpai

Жыл бұрын

I may be misunderstanding what you’re saying here, but I don’t agree at all that your card draw _needs_ to be 2 mana tops, unless you’re playing cEDH. It’s good to have a few of those, but the 2 mana ones tend to be low impact. And there are sooo many insanely good card draw spells. I think most of your draw slots should be 3 mana at most, maybe 4. But I think it’s worth including one or two expensive, big burst draw spells like Rishkar’s Expertise and Shamanic Revelation. They can really just fling you into a winning position out of nowhere.

@odysseuslost

Жыл бұрын

@@Crunchatize_Me_Senpai I'm saying you don't want to ever pay more than 2 mana per card if you can help it. Ex: Harmonize is 4cmc, but draws 3 cards. As such you are paying 1.33 mana per card, which is a good rate. The total amount of mana your card draw costs should vary so that you can work it into your curve. So you will have some 2 mana Night's Whisper effects, but also cards like Memory Deluge which scale, or X spells like Blue Sun's Zenith for a curve topper

@timbombadil4046

Жыл бұрын

It's also why Harmonize is a fine card. Sure it'll generally draw you less than Toski, but what is Toski doing the turn after a Farewell and you need a mitt of cards to re-establish? You trade maximum upside for reliability, a consistent floor, which is only fair.

@dontmisunderstand6041

11 ай бұрын

@@timbombadil4046 Green has actual good card draw though, why use harmonize? Ok, there's a card that exists that the opponent losing hardest can use to even up the game. You still have your mana, you can rebuild, probably faster than them, otherwise they wouldn't have needed to wipe the board.

Stinging study is worth it if your 4 mana commander is named Sheoldred

@pauldyson8098

Жыл бұрын

You know that's right!

@okgut2033

Жыл бұрын

Its allready worth at 3 mana commanders. You dont have much cards that rate better than 5 mana to get 3 cards atm. Ofc it wouldnt be the top 5 anymore but still maybe at top 10.

@leonjakobsen272

Жыл бұрын

@@okgut2033 ancient craving and ambitions cost is the same for 1 less mana, and damnable pact is basically 3 cards for 5 mana, but with more flexibility. Both read the bones and night's whisper also have a way better rate than 3 cards for 5 mana

@ferdithetank7535

Жыл бұрын

@@okgut2033 You actually do, Lilli's Contract and Promise of Power are better overall, also aristocrats effect like Disciple of Bolas are much better.

@wesleywyndam-pryce5305

Жыл бұрын

@@leonjakobsen272 but whats your 7th and 8th and 9th and 10th picks that are better?

"How is it not thematic? Its got a book!" -Crim justifying the flavor of stinging study in Ur Dragon

@Crunchatize_Me_Senpai

Жыл бұрын

🤣 I hate that no one caught that, so funny

@Orengi-kun

Жыл бұрын

I'm thinking Mr. Grixis was thinking about Nicol Bolas instead of The Ur Dragon.

"So are we just not gonna run Ancestral Recall? Is drawing 3 cards bad? Is that where we're at?" ~Seth This had me dying

No Secret Rendezvous Richard: Am I a joke to you?

@MTGGoldfishCommander

Жыл бұрын

(Richard) I'm gone for one sec and this sadness happens :(

@bradleykyonizuka2558

Жыл бұрын

@@MTGGoldfishCommander they just knew there isn't a tier high enough for secret rendezvous and that in comparison the other cards don't even belong on the list

@TMidander

Жыл бұрын

@@MTGGoldfishCommander It's not even on the list?!

"How does Richard always get away with it?" He plays the low cost draw 2-3s they're not flashy but they get the job done.

@aklepatzky

5 ай бұрын

If you get away with 2 mana draw 2 cards your tables power level is 6 at most

@josephpayton7522

4 ай бұрын

U know nothing. ​@@aklepatzky

@aklepatzky

4 ай бұрын

@@josephpayton7522 your tables are timmy power

@josephpayton7522

4 ай бұрын

@@aklepatzky so what you're claiming is that I'm pub stomping??

@PalPlays

Ай бұрын

​@@aklepatzky Better two-mana draw two than three-mana draw one (Phyrexian Arena).

Seth and Tomer are being spiteful back and forth, Crim is egging it on, and Phil is just admiring the chaos.

@pixelbomb97

Жыл бұрын

Except when they flip the script on Esper Sentinel and Crim's super spiteful and Seth and Tomer are pressing his buttons.

Crim doesn't understand why discarding a card matters because he's a blue player, so he always has a full grip

@dwpetrak

Жыл бұрын

I think it's funny that they forget that soo many players want things in their graveyard. As often as not I'm happy to discard a beater or value piece. Syphon Mind can cause the caster to lose the game in the next cycle

@DylanHunter64

Жыл бұрын

It's truly one of his most baffling stances lol it's such a good card.

@enmanuelrondon9700

Жыл бұрын

Is this true? I feel like crim usually just has 2 cards in hand unless mana screwed.

@Crunchatize_Me_Senpai

Жыл бұрын

Mathematically it seems good, but the thing is, the fact that each opponent goes down by only 1 card means it’s not actually going to have much of an impact on the game, because it’s not hurting anyone that badly. Nobody is losing more than 1 card, so each opponent is going to still have most of their cards, AND THEY CHOOSE THE CARD. So they’re losing their worst card and keeping their best cards. If it were target player discards 3 and you draw 3, it would be leagues better because you’d practically be taking one player out of the game. Or if you could choose the cards, because you could weed out interaction or scary threats. But as it is, all you’re doing is mildly inconveniencing your opponents. It’s still good for its cost. 4 mana draw 3 is pretty normal, and this has upside. But it’s not as big of an upside as people make it out to be, and 4 mana draw 3 once isn’t really good in EDH. This card is almost never going to have a big impact when you play it. C seems right.

@Proudfootzorz

Жыл бұрын

@@Crunchatize_Me_Senpai wrong, this card is quite good. I play it in most of my black decks. Targeting a player would be worse in multiple ways. If there isn't a player with three cards in hand you would lose card draw and it's mean to a single player which makes you a bully in commander and a target.

This episode desperately needs a second part. Even in a Black-heavy list you guys once again missed Necropotence, and Greed!

@atle853

Жыл бұрын

Ad nauseam.

@egoish6762

Жыл бұрын

I think Necro and Ad Naus were missed due to how obviously good they are, greed would be an interesting one to listen to but it feels C tier.

@timbombadil4046

Жыл бұрын

Even then Ad Naseum is a build around B. Relatively mediocre card unless built around and you have a low curve.

@surfinggarchomp2820

Жыл бұрын

@@egoish6762 I checked the list and somehow necro only got "a"s

@egoish6762

Жыл бұрын

@@surfinggarchomp2820 i don't run it in decks that heavily play in the yard, so maybe thats a negative. Plus they aren't a competative group, probably ranks lower due to that as well.

I think it’s telling that the main argument against Consecrated Sphinx (the other being that it’s 6 mana) is that it’s so good, your opponents will recognize how good it is and try to kill you or it. If a card basically requires an answer then I don’t really think it can be anything but an S, even more so if the required answer is player removal

@MistaHoward

9 ай бұрын

Part of the problem with Sphinx as a "card draw" spell is that typically, the most urgent scenarios where you want to draw cards is when you're behind, where Sphinx is bad. You can't just play out Sphinx unless you're in a position where you're confident you wont' just die, unlike a normal draw spell. I feel like Sphinx should take up a game ender slot rather than a card draw slot in your deck, because it's a card that either makes you win or makes you lose when you play it. It doesn't serve the same role in a deck that sign in blood or other generic draw spells do.

blackmarket connections is also in the precombat main phase so it has the benefit of you having knowledge of your first card for turn so it can really inform how well you use the modes.

I run stinging study in my Vilis, Broker of Blood deck, 5 mana draw 16

@mjvane46

Жыл бұрын

Ha thats filthy, i have it in piru, 5 mana draw 8 and i gain all the life back easy

Idea for a commander clash theme: Underrated - everyone plays the cards they rated C or lower when someone else rated them A or higher.

This episode reminded me to add Esper Sentinel to all my white decks. I didn't see your stats episode, but calling it white Ancestral Recall is eye-opening. And here's one other benefit your stats don't capture: Sentinel often dies to a removal spell, so it's often worth one more (good) card than it draws.

@maxcheese382

9 ай бұрын

If they don’t reprint sentinel it’s probably going to get crazy expensive, it’s just so perfect for commander.

Playing sign in blood, night's whisper and read the bones are good because of the consistency they can provide. Most of the mindset y'all are operating under is best case scenario. These "eat your vegetables" cards are helpful to smooth out rough hands, bad draws, etc. It's also very useful to have those cards when you're not playing Blue (or green in some cases). Mono-black, orzhov and rakdos thrive off these cards. Given most of the people on this pod 1. Always play blue, or 2. Only play multicolor rampy value piles, the evaluations make sense. But there's a lot you're not considering.

@JD-td8kl

5 ай бұрын

I put those three cards in basically all black decks I run. Always pretty happy to see them!

@aklepatzky

5 ай бұрын

Low impact cards for low power tables

@AgonalRhythm

5 ай бұрын

@@aklepatzky Is there something wrong with playing low power pods? 🤔

@aklepatzky

5 ай бұрын

@@AgonalRhythm your subconscious speaking?

@AgonalRhythm

5 ай бұрын

@@aklepatzky No, it was a legitimate question for you, but I've decided I don't really care about your answer anymore.

Black Market Connections is basically a mana rock that also draws cards.

I look forward to these every Tuesday!

*Stinging Study* -- I do think that this is worth playing to draw 4. I've gotten to the point in some of my decks where I'm genuinely putting Tidings back in as a 5 mana draw 4. Having a 5 mana draw 4 at instant speed is very strong to me. *Painful Truths* -- Honestly, I'm torn on this card. I've noticed in my decks that certain archetypes and mana curves really want different kinds of draw spells. If I'm playing a low-curve deck like Edgar Markov, I actually want to be playing things like Stinging Study or wheels to get that big refill after dumping my hand. In a deck like Runo Sea Monster Tribal, having stuff like Night's Whisper and Chart a Course to draw a couple cards for 2 mana is really good when you want to follow it up with whatever giant spell you draw. Painful Truths sits right in the middle. I actually think it's very strong in goodstuff decks, or any deck that sits around there on the AggroControl spectrum. *Read the Bones* -- I still like Read the Bones in certain decks for the reason Crim brought up. It just sees an extra card. I actually really value the card selection in some decks over just having more cards. I will even put Brainstorm/Ponder in decks that aren't spellslinger or top-deck matters since they're an efficient way to dig for certain effects. If your deck has fewer tutors in it and is built around having a lot of redundancy, the card selection baked into Read the Bones is really valuable. *Black Market Connections* -- In recent years, I've really become more of an aggro player in commander. Commanders like Saskia and Grixis Marchesa have become some of my favorite decks ever. Taking lessons from other formats, how does aggro usually beat control in standard or modern? They drop a card advantage engine like Dark Confidant or Experimental Frenzy and get extra cards every turn to keep up with the control player. If I'm playing an aggro deck in commander, Sylvan Library and Black Market Connections, and even Phyrexian Arena are all the first cards I'll throw in. I think Phyrexian Arena is SIGNIFICANTLY worse the BMC, but it's still a redundant version of an effect I'm looking for. *Decree of Pain* -- I think I've finally figured this card out. When I first started playing commander in 2014, this was in EVERY black deck I would ever build. Then there was a 5 year gap where I cut it from all my decks and never played it at all. Hearing Tomer's thoughts on many decks getting more efficient asymmetrical sweepers like Slaughter the Strong and Kindred Dominance was like the light bulb turning on in my head, because I think he's exactly correct. With that realization, I actually think now that Decree is hideously underplayed in decks that can get a lot of use out of the Cycling mode. Using a more extreme example like Doran the Siege Tower, if most of the creatures in your deck survive the cycling trigger, it should 100% be in the deck. At that point, the modal aspect of the card really shines through and greatly overshadows most of the other options. I'm going to be putting it in some of my decks now strictly for the cycling trigger, and treat it like a giant Charm. *Syphon Mind* -- Strictly speaking, Syphon Mind is a 6-for-1. Socially speaking, making people discard cards makes them want to target you almost immediately. I used to play this card in basically every deck. I basically need to be playing discard tribal to want this anymore, unless I'm on a super tight budget and need a draw spell. *Esper Sentinel* -- This card definitely isn't drawing as many cards as I thought it would when it got spoiled. It's not a white Rhystic Study. It's still very powerful though. Easily one of the best white commander cards ever printed. 1 mana, easy to tutor for, easy to recur, an artifact permanent for things like metalcraft and affinity, holds equipment, etc. I've never seen this not replace itself almost immediately. As somebody who's started putting Gitaxian Probe and Street Wraith because they draw a single card for 0 mana, a 1-drop that almost always draws more than 2 is amazing. When people play around it correctly, it's a bad stax piece that doesn't draw any cards(which is the whole reason you're playing it outside of cEDH) and it gets you targeted.

I love the discussion and arguing. It’s so real and thought provoking!

I feel like painful truths is generally better than read the bones, but there are some situations in deckbuilding where read the bones is preferable. One thing i really noticed when playing the c2020 mardu humans precon, (which includes painful truths), is that it can really drain your colors. Cheap card draw is kind of diminished if you don't have the right colors left to cast the cards you draw. This is mostly a problem if you don't have a good manabase, but that is a legitimate concern during deckbuilding for a lot of people There's also a few other minor things. While read the bones draws 1 less card, it also digs 1 card deeper into your library, which might be relevant if you're looking for a specific card or a tutor. Painful truths is also worse with cost reduction in spellslinger.

@razzledazzle7863

Жыл бұрын

Pleasure to see another Jirina player in the wild

Since you mentioned it earlier, stinging study is absolutely godlike in an ur-dragon deck

I love sign in blood and read the bones it’s nice to have draw that isn’t dependent on having big creatures or triggers

Esper sentinel is just great in every deck that can play it, it does so much for such a cheap investment. Your opponents can never answer it without losing some sort of tempo, they will always need to pay the extra 1 or you draw a card, and judging from my own experience, people rarely point their removal spells at it.

The Consecrated Sphinx discussion is something super important that I dont think a lot of people dont talk about regarding making yourself a threat with card draw specifically. Once you get to that amount of card draw, the table will often label you with a REALLY high threat. But if your deck doesnt really have enough cheap spells and/or ramp to take advantage of that many cards at once (or just combo out), then the actual ability for you to threaten the board is much lower than what the other players are predicting. Thats a really bad place to put yourself because not only does it make you get killed, it lets other people who are actually the threat stay under the radar.

Jeska's Will is strong because Seething Song is strong, but Seething Song has a situational downside. If you top deck Seething Song last in the game, or have it as your only card in hand, it does nothing for you. Additionally, rituals like Seething Song trade card advantage for mana advantage. Jeska's Will is not bad to top deck in the late game, since it can draw more cards, and it can be a ritual that gives you card advantage, instead of losing it. Additionally, Jeska's Will can sometimes just be Seething Song if you want it to be. It is kind of like a charm or command, where it has additional flexibility and use cases.

@taishoukinjiro

Жыл бұрын

Thank you. I've been trying to figure out why this card is good for years. I still brew decks based on the old tuck rules so my deck can function without the commander on board and they're right that Act on Impulse isn't a good card and that's all I've seen it as. A mana ritual that sometimes draws cards is much more reasonable. I still don't think I'm going to be playing it anytime soon though

@Crunchatize_Me_Senpai

Жыл бұрын

I do think JW is a busted card, but I also think it doesn’t belong on this list in particular, because as a card draw option, it’s not good. If you’re evaluating it as a card draw spell it’s okay at best. The ramp is what makes it busted.

@okgut2033

Жыл бұрын

3 mana draw 3 is good rate xD Having something on top is insane value 😂

@Crunchatize_Me_Senpai

Жыл бұрын

@@okgut2033 It’s not draw though. You don’t get to keep the cards. 3 mana draw three is amazing, but that’s not what this is. 3 mana exile off the top and play them for a limited time is just okay.

@burnsboy101

6 ай бұрын

@@Crunchatize_Me_Senpaiand get 7 mana 😂 yeah it’s not great

Enchantments are literally the hardest type to remove 😂 crimm tripping

@theSHELFables

Жыл бұрын

Right? My mono black deck has been straight invalidated by a turn 2 Rest in Peace. an enchantment that hoses you in certain colors can just be GGs sometimes.

@wesleywyndam-pryce5305

Жыл бұрын

planes walkers still have far less direct interaction cards than enchantments

@theSHELFables

Жыл бұрын

@@wesleywyndam-pryce5305 All colors can remove them with creature damage in addition to anything that just destroys PWs/permanents outright, direct damages any target or removes counters from permanents so I have to disagree there.

@FearOgre

Жыл бұрын

Enchantments are way easier to remove than lands.

@timbombadil4046

Жыл бұрын

@@FearOgre non-basic lands can be removed by several colorless lands, So there's no color restriction and almost no opportunity cost to answering lands. And you don't need to remove basics unless specifically playing land destruction.

I could literally listen to you guys get spicy with each other for 4 hours at a time. It's a lot of fun to see what hills you all are willing to die on and how the others react to them. I just wish the podcast episode wasn't dominated by black cards

Crim rates rates Painful Truths a C because of that time he hit it with Chaos Wand.

@lucascoutinho2441

Жыл бұрын

I'm pretty sure he hit it with Chaos Wand 4 times in one season. I think that's why he doesn't run Chaos Wand anymore .

@ferdithetank7535

Жыл бұрын

@@lucascoutinho2441 That's why he should've ran Wand of Wonders instead

@jeffe2267

Жыл бұрын

I also think it is because he doesn't play green/ramp. 3cmc is a lot more attractive when you ramp on turn 1.

Syphon mind: 4 CMC, up 2 cards, opponents down 3 cards White draw: 3 CMC, you up 2 cards, opponents up 3 cards.

@leonjakobsen272

Жыл бұрын

Syphon mind: turns everyone against you Secret rendezvous: Can be used for politics

Lilliana is an A for me. Played with it so many times in so many different decks and she always proves her worth.

@faperito2389

Жыл бұрын

When the setup ain't right to draw with her, the -4 is always handy. Always draws at least 1 and pseudo wipes. She's grrreat.

You guys should do a part 2 on this talking about the other cards! Is there a reason you don’t like to go past the 1.5 hr mark? I’d listen to you guys talk for 4 hrs if you have enough cards to talk about 😂

Crim might be land screwed because he doesn't play enough draw

.... I wanted to fight pretty much every person on this episode at least once. Which is why I love it!

I swear, half the time it sounds like Crim is playing a whole different format... the other half its Tomer doing it.

@timbombadil4046

Жыл бұрын

Find Tomer wants to look for upsides on cards and can be overly generous. Crim is the opposite and finds flaws that don't exist.

Regarding instant speed, you also have to consider the psychological impact on your opponents when you leave 5 mana open, now they're thinking that you might have an inkshield or removal or whatever so it can make your opponents play sub optimally which is another upside of instant speed

@dontmisunderstand6041

11 ай бұрын

If I see 5 mana open, I assume they bricked. If they left 2 mana open, I assume they're trying to play a "gotcha" card. Of course, I play with the mindset that anything I play that gets removed is actually a removal spell for a card in my opponent's hand. Just like you don't mind playing removal spells to get rid of my board, I don't mind playing my board as bait for your removal.

I run Stinging Study in two 7 cost commander decks and I've never regretted casting it. As a wise poet likes putting it: Stinging Study is the truth.

@Crunchatize_Me_Senpai

Жыл бұрын

Man I read this as “two cost commander” at first and was like WHAT

@thetogtube2

Жыл бұрын

The Truth ⚡️

@jeffe2267

Жыл бұрын

Pretty sure you'd always prefer casting Ad Naus instead, but have fun.

As a blue player, Crim ought to understand how powerful a combo discard/draw effect should be. Put yourself ahead 3 card draws, deny your opponents a option in their hand, regardless of whether its good or not. Making arguments about graveyard reanimation is redundant cause it's under the assumption that every deck you play against is able to reanimate. Also if you were even mildly looking to synegise this, this would be a staple in decks where you want opponents to discard/fill their graveyards (Tergrid jumps to mind. Plus any commander/deck that utilises graveyard theft.)

The only phyrexian arena I had, came in one precon on 2015 and it went straight into a binder short afterwards. I'm with Tomer on this

@timbombadil4046

Жыл бұрын

Same. Find it funny Crim thinks Siphon Mind is a bad top deck but phyrexian arena is worth playing. Siphon mind is a great late game to deck. Phyrexian arena is *only* good if played several turns before the end of the game. Unless your games go really long, you need to play it on curve to get decent value out of it.

@dontmisunderstand6041

11 ай бұрын

@@timbombadil4046 Lots of cards are only good several turns before the end of the game. Like, Rhystic Study, Sol Ring, Smothering Tithe. That doesn't mean they're bad cards.

@timbombadil4046

11 ай бұрын

@@dontmisunderstand6041 Right, but the differences between the cards you listed and PA is the maximum upside. You accept that Rhystic Study needs time to generate advantage, but the advantage it can generate far exceeds PA. Smothering tithe is similar but you can also just wheel and get insane immediate value. And Sol Ring is the most powerful card in the format save mana crypt. PA isn't bad, but it's quite far behind where it once was.

@dontmisunderstand6041

11 ай бұрын

@@timbombadil4046 You are correct, but there's a difference between "there are better cards for this" and "this is a bad card".

@jaspergray1066

Ай бұрын

The games I play last many turns. It depends on your pod but PA arena has been goated in my experience. I put enough card draw in my decks that I am almost never stuck to top decking so I have never been upset about drawing it

Read the Bones isn't threatening, but it still digs 4 deep for a combo. It's like the opposite of Sphinx

Wots Liliana should be AT LEAST a B: when you play it in any aristocrats deck you basically win the game

I love Ancient Craving/Ambition's Cost. They're great workhorse/filler draw spells. 4 mana for 3 cards and it's like 25 cents. Harmonize does good work and these cards do too imo.

@wesleywyndam-pryce5305

Жыл бұрын

4 mana for 2 cards, always subtract the card you used to draw.

@ferdithetank7535

Жыл бұрын

Also very splashable, perfect fillers for sure

Jeska's Will is definitely a draw spell. That's one reason it's great. It counts for both ramp and draw, both during deck building and in-game.

Black has more “target player sacrifices and enchantment” than it has “destroy starter enchantment”

we need a part two

Phyrexian Arena is a cycle card with delayed trigger. You maybe get one draw off it then it gets blown up or the game ends.

@juliofranciscogomezstoppel1860

Жыл бұрын

Arena is super bad. You spent 3 mana to get 2 cards and loose 2 life in two turn cycles. You can literally do that two turns earlier for one less with sign in blood. In terms of speed and mana efficency, is incredibly stupid. Is like Baleful Force vs read the bones.

I think the scry of Read the Bones is really underestimated. Feels terrible to Sign in Blood or Painful Truths and you only draw lands or nonlands when you needed the other.

When I look at Dreadhorde General I don't just see her static ability and token potential. At a 4 player table, assuming nobody got alpha struck, if she can land and stick to generate token value or synergize with existing board state then she's decent, but if you assume an average game her -4 is what helps her jump up to pretty solid. You stop looking at her like a token generator and look at her as a 6-mana potential double innocent blood that on average draws you 4 cards the turn you play it, up to a max initial potential of 8 cards, and she if manages to stick you'll draw more. She doesn't fit a lot of decks but she fits some decks great.

Everyone is missing the real synergy for Esper Sentinel… it’s a white, power based card draw tax. It’s BUILT for +1/+1 counter decks. You play it, buff it, and make it harder to kill and the tax astronomical. “Oh, you’re gonna play anything? Pay 8?”

@soleo2783

3 ай бұрын

Youre prob not going to see people bolting your esper sentinel in commander, the only common "damage to creatures" spell deals 13 damage, buffing your esper sentinel doesnt make it harder to kill.

21:00 I think stinging study is an auto-include on blue-black, where you can sit on 5 open mana until the end phase before your turn, and influence the board just through the fear you might be holding some blue things.

Just got my new play at from you guys and the first card I placed on it just so happened to be Secret Rendezvous! Hahah

Crim will pay 5 mana and 4 life to draw 4, but not 4 mana and 0 life to draw 3. He REALLY values a completely full hand. No incremental advantage, he was EVERYTHING or nothing.

On stinging study at 4, basically no instant speed draw in black gets 4 cards for 5 mana. It’s pretty strong/efficient.

The AO flash was HILARIOUS 😂😂😂

How people are still rating Liliana so low is quite interesting. My Liliana in my Teysa deck is one of the best cards to draw and keep on the field. The fact it's a permanent changes everything.

@dontmisunderstand6041

11 ай бұрын

Permanents are almost exclusively superior to instants and sorceries. It's in the name. Permanent. As in, continues to matter. That's why Planeswalkers tend to be busted, because they're generally just several sorceries stapled together. War of the Spark and afterward, Planeswalkers became enchantments with sorceries stapled on top.

Seth giving Tomer a piece of his own logic in their debate over Phyrexain Arena has me rolling! lol

No mention of moonlight bargain? Instant speed draw5 with huge upside if filling the graveyard is a part of the deck. Allure of the unknown is another amazing draw-5 that almost always helps politic threat assessment to whomever takes your free card. Also the liliana mentioned in this video is forced card draw (not "may") and can easily make a graveyard loop deck fail before assembling a wincon. She's good but not every aristocrat deck will run it.

Crim saying that Rhystic Studies is better than Consecrated Sphinx because it's easier to remove is such a weird take imo. no clue how that holds up.

@leonjakobsen272

Жыл бұрын

Green is better at removing enchantments than creatures, and green is really popular in edh.

@_claymore

Жыл бұрын

@@leonjakobsen272 that is true. but the average deck still runs less enchant removal than creature removal, simply because there are more effecient creature removals available than for enchant. across the board, I'd still say that creatures are far easier to remove than enchantments.

Fun episode! But did you guys forget the full rankings or the link to the article?

Jeska's will is really meta dependant. In our casual budge pods, I barely break even with its first mod and I dont think its worth it for the second mod alone. I kept it in my Faldor deck even though it usually under performs (given you can only cast them this turn compared to most impulse draw that give you a whole turn circle to cast them). Definitely power in stronger meta that always have more cards in hands.

I just think of Phyrexian Arena as foretell spend the initial cost first benefit the gains later to allow for more explosive turns sequences later if for some reason someone pops it then they aren't popping my better enchantments like Grave Pact, Black Market etc. Phyrexian Arena also adds devotion to my mono black deck which is good, I think it's a solid B card, not sure if i'd run it decks that are 3 colours or more but in mono black it's good.

@ferdithetank7535

Жыл бұрын

I'd rather run Morbid Opportunist, it can draw you a card the turn it comes, doesn't loose you life, and it's ceiling is way higher.

I do love stinging study( i run it marchesa control combat deck). But in mono black my favorite commander is actually a two drop.

I have to agree with crim on instant speed, when you are not draw go you still have a plan to spend all your mana each turn cycle, your strategy is just more robust the less time it's effects are in play and can be interacted with.

3cmc in blue, Keep watch. Draw off your attackers or an opponents attackers. I love this .25 instant

Arena just gets better the longer the game goes, so it is highly dependent on your playgroup. If games normally go around 7 turns and your deck is more aggressive, there are certainly better alternatives. If games are on average rather slow and take 10+ turns, arena can really pay off. I play it in my mono black deck and have never been disappointed. And occasionally you get two more devotion for gary.

I consider certain criteria when choosing if a card draw is worth it. 1) It's repeatable/more than once per turn 2) If it's one shot effect, it has to be at least 3 cards, otherwise not worth spending a slot, so Read the Bones is a huge nono 3) It has options, like modal spells, or activated abilities 4) It has synergies with the rest if the deck/ it's commander

Totally agree with Phil on Liliana and Consecrated sphinx. I wish Richard was there to back him up on those calls !

An argument for Read the Bones... I play it in Lathril. When the deck wins, it generates a ton of mana, then plays a bunch of cheap cards, draws more cards, then plays those. When it fails, it's because it generates a ton of mana but has no cards left to spend it on. The deck wants to keep drawing and keep playing. I think of more explosive draw spells like Genesis Wave and Slate of Ancestry as wincons, but I have to find those cards using cheaper spells (I personally don't love tutors). Guardian Project and Beast Whisperer are great, but they do nothing on their own. Cards like Phyrexian Arena don't make the cut because they're more about advantage over time and not an explosive chain of cascading triggers. Yes, Read the Bones is weaker than Night's Whisper or even Harmonize, but I run them all and then some. The only exception is Sign in Blood, as the deck is better at making too much green than too much black, so the double black is too expensive.

Skeletal Scrying is pretty similar to Stinging Study, and I usually end up choosing it over Stinging Study for the increased flexibility (unless I have a 6cmc+ commander)

@ferdithetank7535

Жыл бұрын

Scrying is basically a dead card if your graveyard is empty, Stinging Study is overall better if your Commander is cmc 4+. They are on the opposite of spectrum

Phil needs to show the table the truth with Liliana. I agree with his grade

You cant fetch esper sentinel with urzas saga. Love the list tho, ive been binging yalls videos for a couple weeks now lol. Wish i found the channel sooner

My favorite is playing Syphon mind when a game is down to a 1v1 to cycle

@1:16:15, Syphon Mind completely sums up EDH lol That how the Seths vs the Crims feel, it encapsulates how players look at Magic, especially how they evaluate EDH whilst reading cards. Should there be a singular answer or are there many correct answers. Only if there wasn’t a way to see the performance of cards, at the scale of >10k games.

It's such a trip to see Seth hesitate bout Stinging Study averaging at 4 cards when we know he has paid more to get less. Of course, the context is whether it deserves an "A" but I still find it funny.

Draw 3 for 4 is great on the curve… as long as you’re not constantly forcing control

Jeskas will is an auto include for me. jes the floor is 3 mana exile three or make a lot of mana (which is still pretty decent and actually pretty rare), but the celing is draw three that goes mana positive. Like what? I think its already insane if you only use 2 of the mana you gained from it making it a 1 mana exile three

@ferdithetank7535

Жыл бұрын

It varies heavily depending on your Commander's cost. Both modes are good, but I wouldn't run it for just one of them, always want both.

Ancestral Recall over Esper Sentinel any time, but compared to other carddraw in it's colour its pretty close. I also prefer theese midrangy carddrawspells like Siphon Mind, Painfull Truth and Read the Bones over some splashy draw 10 but discard 7 of them because you didn't find your Reliquary Tower ;-)

This video showed me the light on Read the Bones versus Phyrexian Arena. I’d rather draw RtB off PA than PA off RtB. PA is basically suited to non-blue 2-color or fewer where devotion can matter. I concur with Crim on Syphon Mind. I put it in a mono-black deck and swapped it out within a couple games of using it. I wouldn’t keep it except in the most desperate of starting hands, and since it gets used later on, it’s downright likely for missing or hellbent opponents to hinder it. If it would get full effect, it baits a Counterspell for four mana or draws my entire table’s ire if it resolves. I’d prefer a Howling Mine or Well of Knowledge just because they’d accelerate the game over Syphon Mind, which is about less than worthless.

Just gonna say that if you thrown in syphon mind randomly at the wrong table, you gonna catch a lot of heat

@jeffcgh

Жыл бұрын

if you catch heat for playing a 4 mana sorcery you’re playing at the wrong table.

@soleo2783

3 ай бұрын

​@@jeffcghyou can get heat by playing a 2 mana rat that makes everyone else discard aswell

I'll add some engagement! Shamanic Revelation is budget and still a powerhouse. Bad top deck but the returns are return and can gain some much needed life back

I'm going to be honest I think crim lives in a world where he's successfully that like one-to-one master that he dreams himself to be and then I watch the majority of commander clash videos and he usually has no removal or is forced to spend it to stay alive and he performs the absolute best when he abandons or doesn't happen to draw all the random counter spells and removal and instead just beats down

@dontmisunderstand6041

11 ай бұрын

That's just how removal works. You will only have it in hand when it's a dead draw. Think of every big threat that gets countered or blown up as a removal spell for a card in your opponent's hand, and then build mono-removal with that mindset.

where's the link to the full list they mentioned at the beggining?

having played with Decree, i feel that the real power is in the cycling. It hoses tokens and for the most part is an uncounterable wrath since cycling is an ability. It even gets around indestructible!

@okgut2033

Жыл бұрын

Cycling also is instand speed so you set up the next turn :)

Crim and Phil are life haha. Best two MTG creators out there!!

Rishkar's expertise should be here. Great commander card.

@Crunchatize_Me_Senpai

Жыл бұрын

It was probably on the list, but they didn’t get to talk about much. This should have a part 2 at least, if not 3.

For the first time, I'm with Crim (I generally hate control playstyle) but for sorcery speed draw spells I prefer 2 mana value over 3/4 mana value because I value turns when I can play the draw spell and then play another spell. For the 3 mana value spells, it is more like an investissment, I prefer cards like Phyrexian Arena & Black Market Connections will grants more cards in a long term than cards like Painful Truths.

Wheel of Fortune. Draw 21 cards for 3 mana in EDH. Red = best card draw

Crim on Esper Sentinel: "If you're a random Hippogriff deck, I don't know why you're running this." Everyone: "It draws an average of 3 cards for 1 mana!!!!!!!" I love this podcast lol

@VexylObby

Жыл бұрын

I still do not think it does. Their meta confuses me.

Wish we could’ve heard y’all’s thoughts on non-black cards

In any deck I have her in Lilliana is almost always 6 mana draw 4 (low end) with the absolute promise of more if she makes it back around the table. Drawing aggro from removal and damage through combat is a benefit not a disadvantage.

The more and more I listen to this podcast the more I realize Tomer is the only one on the podcast who plays like I do 😂 couldn’t imagine ever running Phyrexian arena over painful truths or read the bones

Stinging Study is fantastic for Oloro decks :p

I think you guys are underestimating Lilly. It is removal on turn 5 for 6 creatures on the board with the upside of drawing you cards. With tokens, Liliana can be an 8-for-1: opps sac 2 creatures each and you draw two cards. The ultimate, if you're playing a PW deck, is GGs. Seth!!! How can you give Syphon Mind an S when Liliana is a better X-for-1? Think about it my friend.

tomer may have actually influenced me on this one... 3 mana for 3 cards right now vs 3 mana for 3 cards over 4 turns as good as it feels to be like "i get to draw twice, how about that!" logistically it makes more sense to frontload still think read the bones is good too, it still lets you dig as much as 4 deep and getting cards that are good in the moment is more important than just raw quantity more often than not

On the topic of drawing 3, what do you think about ancestral vision and stand still?

So Read the Bones for budget decks? Come on. I'm running it alongside Necropotence, Bolas' Citadel, Night's Whisper and Stinging Study. The card is what you would call a reliable roleplayer, no matter the state of the game, the card is solid. Comparing it to Phyrexian Arena is insulting to it, lol.

@xMr.Agenda

Жыл бұрын

Scry is underrated

Tomer is 100% correct that Phyrexian Arena is trash. The card hasn't been viable in EDH for over 5 years. Read the Bones is fantastic, splashable, good in the early game, good in the late game, and being able to see upto 4 deep matters a lot.

Not that anyone cares but my opinion on phyrexian arena is it’s pretty solid but not great. If there’s 11 or so draw options that really have synergy with what the decks doing, I won’t include it. If not, then I think it’s definitely worth running despite the drawbacks, although overpriced!