Aero vs Lightweight, what would you choose? 🤔

@mariusdonici2132

9 ай бұрын

Both of them

@gcntech

9 ай бұрын

🫡@@mariusdonici2132

@LazyGrayF0x

9 ай бұрын

Yes :)

@georgeisenbarg8302

9 ай бұрын

Aero. But you really should consider not talking about climbs in percent gradient but instead on how fast you are going on the climb. If you can climb 7 or more percent over the a certain speed then the aero advantage starts to creep up on the weight advantage...no? Gravity is linear in how it effects mass, but air resistance goes up exponentially with speed...

@mmurmurjohnson2368

9 ай бұрын

Agreed, aero is the winner in most circumstances at most speeds until you get to extreme steep and long climbs that would justify a more dedicated climbing bike. I'd even go as far as to say I'd prefer a heavier aero bike on moderate gradients and flats over a lighter one in order to capitalize on inertia and the bike's ability to hold speed, but I tend to favor big gear grinding over spinning. @@georgeisenbarg8302

I definitely benefit from my aero bike, it looks much faster when I stop in a cafe.

@2jcgtevvti459

9 ай бұрын

Dammit haha

Week 27 of asking for a’The UCI has no jurisdiction here’ T-shirt

@ethangodridge6833

9 ай бұрын

Saving it for a Christmas special release 😂.

@joelogjam9163

9 ай бұрын

The UCI has banned them.

@ghowell13

9 ай бұрын

In again this week supporting the Just say NO to the UCI shirt, please❤

@jamesp2702

9 ай бұрын

Go make your own!

@angel16359

9 ай бұрын

Hell yeah

I was going to buy a new bike, but after Dr Ollie’s explanation tonight I’m going to buy a container ship instead.

@kristoffersandberg5843

9 ай бұрын

😂

@DenNo14

9 ай бұрын

#comments of the week 😂

@angel16359

9 ай бұрын

😂😂😂😂😂

@derickcastillo9083

9 ай бұрын

NICE😂@@angel16359

@glennpettersson9002

9 ай бұрын

😂😂😂😂😂😂

Regarding the aero bike: you wanna get an aero bike and you don't mind the weight or the position (or the price)? Then ffs, get it, it simply doesn't matter. We are all not professionals. If we participate at an amateur event it won't matter if we'll do it a little faster or slowlier. Even if we win it its eventually meaningless. Ride what makes you enjoy cycling the most, if thats a 15 kg steel bike, a classic aluminium road bike or an optimised aero racer.

In my case, aero really almost doesn't matter. I ride mainly for fitness, so having a harder ride at the same speed, or a longer ride at the same effort, isn't necessarily a bad thing. I still want to go faster, though, because speed is fun, but that's not really a critical thing for fitness.

@Millicente

9 ай бұрын

If someone can ride longer because they're saving watts, it could be beneficial for increasing their base fitness. As someone who rides for the fun, fitness second, racing dead last (even below just not riding at all), I still appreciate aero. The feeling of speed at higher speeds, the ease with which you carry that speed vs a non aero bike, it all adds to my own personal sense of enjoyment.

@daveburgess7684

9 ай бұрын

Riding longer with less watts is the same fitness as riding shorter with more watts.

@rohana.7760

9 ай бұрын

@@daveburgess7684not really. You train a different mix of energy systems for each.

Oh seeing as we're on the topic of aerodynamics and headwinds / tail winds, I'd love to see a video where gcn find a straight road of a a few km, then cycle 30km/h into a headwind, then turn around and aim for the same speed with a tail wind, and compare power data.

😂The aero conversations can get pretty confusing, but I understand more and more each time it’s explained, so: Thank you!

When I returned to the sport of cycling after 17 years away. I decided that neither weight not aero matter. I want the bike to function reliably. I don't have to better than anyone, my only objective is to be healthier and fitter. That being said these new lightweight aero bikes sure are nice!

I do own an Aeroad and absolutely love it. However I tested with my old beginners bike different setups and to me aero made absolutely no difference. Could that be due to the fact that I am using it on the turbo? Asking for a friend.

@glennpettersson9002

9 ай бұрын

😂😂😂😂

Makes sense. But there’s the “comfort” aspect to consider also. The quality of our roads here in Canada are not great. Aero bike are usually vey stiff and I’m afraid my tooth will fall off over rough stretch

The maths I guesstimate from this is that light vs aero is close race going up 7%, but aero is faster going flat or down. Conclusion . Aero is usually faster. But I have more use for Endurance, gravel or MTB because they can take fatter tyres, and the gravelbike is aero enough for my pleasure and speed.

I empty one of my two water bottles on my climbs and save $3000. I ride the drops into the wind and save another $3000. When I lose 10 pounds, yup, another $3000 saved! So use one bottle, ride the drops, lose 10 pounds, and go buy a new bike!

I am on a 12 year old frame and in my group I am the lightes rider. To improve myself and according to GCN I tweaked the whole system. Went from 10x to 11x (which got me rid of some cables at the front), mounted a narrower handlebar and top of the line tires and inner tubes, bought a more aero kit and helmet and changed my position. Now the only guy that can outrun me on a downhill (just rolling, no pedalling) is the 110 kg guy on a new aero bike. Imho the body plays the decisive role regarding aero and weight.

A lightweight bike with attention to aero features is my preferred choice. Aero bikes are lovely to look at but very expensive, maintenance costs are huge and most of us are not conditioned to ride one without putting our backs out. Lightweight bikes are generally more comfortable, easier to work on and cheaper to buy.

Sorry this got longer than I thought it would ;-) Kudos for making an entertaining light-footed show. Always wanted to be Oli's friend. Bertrand is becoming an online star. I have kept this to myself for too long. This is my third post online like ever. I feel there are a few things left unsaid in this business, and I wonder... It is almost as if we never get the full truth, because there is always a "power-meter missing" some other parameter left out, or too many factors contributing in one direction to actually be able to truly compare on the topic in question that particular episode. Admittedly Oli's brilliant recent time-trial proves that sience work in an optimised world. Aero does work, undoubtedly. On the other side; talking about the ever present topic of weights; If "Oli's" numbers on kg added up; riding a 18kg bike would only set you back 30 wats or so at 8% 25kmh, equal to about 10 sec on your favourite hill, while all the claimed aero gains added up would almost bring you uphill as if you were engine powered by comparison. The aero gains of a good helmet and a 2cm narrower cockpit should almost do the trick on the Eurobike (mild exaggeration revealed) In practical life I find this not to be the case. I suspect that the weight penalties are calculated linear up the hill, which is not how it seem to work in real world; there are micro accelerations and lots of rocking around. The mass constantly shifts speed and direction, which is one of the reasons intangible perceptions varies so significantly. Most people do not ride still, sitting down, and tucked all the time. Andrew feather certainly does not. I have 10+ road bikes, and I have owned probably 100 over the years. I still compete in my 40s. Yes it is a hobby to build and refurbish bikes. Summed up, I find there are relative marginal differences in efforts I put in on group rides and the average speeds I can keep on normal mixed solo rides. I ride refurbished and modernised steel as well as new titanium and the latest aero carbon. There are obvious intangible differences despite the math of peaktorque proving otherwise. Yes; tyres, wheels and clothing makes a noticeable difference on fast rides. I ride uphill races every Tuesday. I always and consistently climb better watt per watt on my lightweight build on tubulars, running higher tyre pressures than recommended. I think tyre deflection and twisting rubber friction offsets the numbers from straight linear rolling resistance. These factors seems not accounted for at bicyclerollingresistance.com I also find TPU tubes and light supple normal tyres to be lighter and faster uphill, also at slightly higher pressures than recommended for equivalent tubeless. Why are normal fast clincher tyres only tested with butyl on that page? What are we missing or not telling? Why do the pro's ditch the aero specific bikes and choose the lightweight bikes? Why do the big brands merge their top tier aero/lightweights you guys think? They look more and more like the pre-aero aera bikes. Subjective sidenote; It is only the last two years or so that I find disc brake bikes to be as nimble, lively and joyful as the rim brake options; Aethos being an early exception. Judging from recent developments; that lightweight bike was an early trendsetter. Last subjective pitch; people wind about comfort. My take; if you are not fast; it is joyful to at least feel fast. It is more fun to ride a Lotus Exige than a modern Mercedes S-class. The micro vibrations from the road sure slows you down, but they make you feel fast. What is wrong with that? Quoting Captain Slow; "you have the most fun when you reach the limits of your car. Hence; you have more fun in a cheap car" - with its limitations and quirks. Read; you do not need a brand new + £10.000 bike to enjoy riding. I have lots of fun on my steel 90s classic on skinny tyres as well. The sensation of speed is fantastic on that one. If you made it here... thanks for reading. Would love to hear your thoughts as well... Happy riding.

@oliverbridgewood3929

9 ай бұрын

just replying to your first point! the relationship isn’t linear.

@erlendsteren9466

9 ай бұрын

I like your thoughts. I have a guess why pros choose light before aero, and its about not getting dropped and losing time. On the flats the drag in the field is so strong that it is possible to keep up with the lightbike. It is in the uphill it gets tough, and that is where you need the most help from your bike.

Bike makers don’t want the consumer recognizing the physics that says, while particular examples of their products do offer benefits, it is system weight and system aerodynamics that matters most. Because the rider is most of the weight part of the system, and the rider is most of the aero part as well, how heavy a rider is and the position the rider takes is overwhelmingly far more important than the bike.

Super great point on head wind and aero savings. People never consider going 35k with a big head wind. Good job.

I just rode my fastest average speed [19.7mph] roughly 30 miles with 1100ft elevation gain on a single speed, steel frame State brand bike. I normally ride a 2020 Trek Domane SL6. The SS weighs a whopping 27 lbs and isn't aero at all. I'm really confused TBH.

One might mention that most people probably are able to put out more power out of the saddle in the short term. But using more energy to achieve the same speed due to the aero losses will tire you out more as on long rides the total energy spent becomes a factor and especially high power efforts add up. Additionally, for me, the efficiency out of the saddle is reduced. Thus, my heart rate increases much more than my power output, making sustainable efforts out of the saddle quite hard to do.

If I’d had Ollie as a science teacher I might have passed!

This may be my all-time favorite Tech Show. The discussion at the beginning was the perfect blend of science vs practical application. Someday I need to do my on investigating to figure out how I'm able to set climbing PBs on my '88 Peugeot despite it having 52/42 cranks and being 3.5kg heavier than my '19 Giant Defy.

My reason for avoiding Aero frames & wheels is the one paved road I need to ride 20 miles in either direction before I can change directions has brutal prevailing crosswinds more days than not. Today average race bike would land you in a ditch or under the wheels of a vehicle on about 1/3 of your ride.

Hi Guys, Ari here from Australia. Love your show. Brilliant! When considering bike weight - it would also depend where you ride. When looking at velocity on a longer ride - aero will win. However, if most of the ride is in the city with stop starts at the lights- it would be easier to accellerate a lighter bike than heavier aero. Some of the rides that I do - the distances between lights are too short and time taken to accellerate to 30 kmh is longer than time spent at 30 kmh. Thus, lighter bikes with lighter wheels feel more adjile and win out on these type of rides and same could apply to hill climbs where the accelleration between gradients may overtake the time at constant velocities.

Hi Guys, Ari here from Australia. Once again love the show. It would be good for you to do a show with real people recovering from over training. I am 48 and recently overdid it. I wasn't feeling tired, but then I started getting chest pains, heart pulputations and high blood pressure. I now took time off it took over a week of being completely off excercise to start to recovery and feel better. It would be good to get some real life people experiences of finding their way back to excercise.

Thanks guys. Your aero discussions from years past helped make my decision to buy an aero bike. Good to hear the logic still holds. 😀👍

Be honest with everything, love you guys keep up the good work!

I love the spicy lime and white colour way. Reminds me of the Brawn GP livery from 2009 F1.

#askgcntech Ollie is damn right that work is simply the product of power and time. So often you hear “I’m to slow for aero”. Also I heard from a guy at Swiss Side that slower Riders experience more crosswinds and therefore a bigger sea urchin effect with deep section wheels. Is there something to it or was that just marketing?

Always Love the 'Felix and friends' tech show!!! Loved Dr. Bridgewood's physics lesson too.

Im a MTB (CC, trail-fully) since years. But since there are aero road bikes with disc breaks i want it. I tried it from a friend an love it. Next invest will be an aerobike in the range of 6k€ 😊

Alan: “I don’t have a middle name” or a memorable first name 😅

Lightweight and Aero explained in an very entertaining way - awesome, guys, you are wonderful!😊👏🤙

@18:50 stunning bike... but Si is right, the brown saddle is out of place... needs a white saddle

Says no tan lines then proceed to show a tan line 😂 Love you guys

16:34 that new orbea color way 😮❤ wow! 🔥

The benefit is there, more notably what do you think over 90 percent of bike sales are? They're ppl who don't even really train. It's all just a flex and the bike industry knows this especially specialized

Since I use a calendar for time trials,maybe.🤷🏼‍♂️

Is your modelling done in steady state, ie constant velocity/power? My last 40km ride I had to come to a near complete stop 16 times at junctions and more built up areas. Scrubbing all that energy and having to rebuild the linear and angular momentum in the wheels is why I prefer a light weight bike and I think others too without realising it. Perhaps you can factor that into some future modelling.

Whatever bike makes u happy riding. No-one should give in to youtube pressure. Am 48, I don't have the youthful flexibility to ride in aero position. But at my age, I do have flexible disposable income to buy an aero bike.

How many of us give a 💩 about few seconds plus or minus "savings" on our rides?? 🙄

@oliverbridgewood3929

9 ай бұрын

well that’s it! now you know, you can decide for yourself which bike you’d rather have! and can make a more informed choice!👍🏼

Love this talk!

Hi Alex and Ollie. Well described Ollie, aero that is. Have you considered out of the saddle on the drops? Not so unaero but can you develop the extra power? Alex, I think antihistomene cream might be better and give relief quicker, does for nettle stings. Alex following up on your warehouses, when Porsche brought out their 917 (my favourite ever) for LeMans they had to build 25. So they assembled all the spares to make 25, had the inspection and dismantled them again into spares.

I've just glazed over!! I'm just going out and riding my bike😁

We should set up a competition to give Alex a middle name. Considering he's been given so many first names over the months, we should see some very imaginative entries.

Where I live there are lots of hills and wind from the mountains foothills. I'll take an lightweight bike any day.

2 seconds on a 1km climb would be 40 seconds on a 20 km climb that is pretty common in a granfondo, so it is not virtually nothing... solution would be a rim brake lightweight aero bike

Very informative. Thank uou😊

On Sam Laidlow, triathlete, it would have been good to mention how many Watts he averaged and how fast he went. And then he got off of the bike and ran a marathon in 2:42.

So we should just focus on losing weight on our bodies and buy an aero bike?

Alex his custom Orbea bike reminds me of a cold beer with beautiful foam #lovebeer

Going south of Huez i recommend Izoard and bonette restefond..much more difficult than Huez

I have had several bikes. Recently got an Aero bike. It is SO much faster. Less power and I still go faster. Still can't top out the smallest gear at over 70kph?? Still have the other lightweight bikes. Only slight issue is that Aero bikes come with non climb friendly cassettes 🙄 - need to be able to have an all terrain cassette.

Let’s be honest. If you’re climbing, standing vs seated in terms of aero will be irrelevant. You’re not climbing a 5-7% gradient at 25km/h unless you’re some sort of alien. So sit or stand won’t make that much of a difference I thinks. This in a perfect world where no wind.

I’m currently looking for a new bike and between areo bike or light weight bike, think you’ve convinced me to go for a more aero bike now plus they look cool 😅😂

Ok, love an aero conversation. Does the increased yaw the front wheel and handlebar go through from a standing position have a significant effect? Seated the deflection of the wheel is much less but the standing position tends to use the handlebar for leverage to increase the power. The wind tunnel testing won't show this as the bike is fixed to stop you falling over. Aero nerds assemble...

@oliverbridgewood3929

9 ай бұрын

slight differences, which appear in most cases to be far far less than the difference between bikes or body positions.

Hey, I actually rode a section of that Iron Man last Sunday….sneaked onto the course. Didn’t take any of their feed/water passing that station towards Vence. Overtook quite a few that made me happy.

All road if anything as I have osteoarthritis .

I'm allergic to mosquitos and it's actually beneficial to actually pretake the antihistamine so when I get bitten it reduces the reaction

25:18 when a dropper seat post says: 'enough is enough'

Yes, i can!

What about the aero effects of a pannier rack and big mudguards?

Have you considered the colour of the bike in all of this discussion. It is “well known” in car circles that red cars go faster so, would a red coloured lightweight bike be faster than any other colour aero bike?

@alan_davis

9 ай бұрын

Red bikes are slow. Source: I have one.

So basically, the fact that Andrew was climbing out the saddle on an aero bike makes absolutely no difference versus seated because the total system weight has sod all to do with it, when the only factor changing is the bike - which was the whole point of the test that people seem to have missed. If an aero bike is only ‘aero’ if your body is in an aerodynamic position than it’s not the bike is it 🤷‍♂️

24:12 Dotty sounds like a Jamaican saying: "DIRTY!"

Bar tape is "In my Amazon basket" No no support your LBS !

I can't even go 15 kph on a 7% gradient in or out of the saddle 😞

Ask GCN - I just got a cervelo R5 with the flat section of the aero road bars. Are they supposed to be completely level? Should they angle slightly up or down for better climbing hand position?

Alex's story about the car company tricking inspectors about the numbers of race cars produced reminded me of another story : In the 70's, a small car manufacturer, by the name of Porsche, was building prototypes to compete in the Le Mans 24 Hours. The cars in question were called 917 (look them up, they are mental) and there's a famous story where they had to build something like 25 exemples to be able to compete (i don't really remember the numbers) before presenting them the the FIA inspectors. Turned out that more than half of the cars presented to the officials were just shells, some without engine of transmission... Btw, Porsche is the most successful manufacturer at the race so, they knew what they were doing 😂

I imagine the ProTour riders mostly use light, non-aero climbing bikes on mountain stages, even though aero bikes are faster overall, because the race gets hard on the climbs and no one is pushing it on the flats. So they need to be the most efficient while climbing in that case. Unless of course you’d plan is the breakaway, in which case aero all the way 👍🏻. Oh, and the sponsors need to showcase their climbing bikes too 😁.

Dedicated aero bikes do not matter. If it did Specialized would have came out with the S-Works Venge.

The Reilly in the bike vault: I looooooove the cropped off wheels. I makes it look even hornier! Double super nice!!

0:19 of Oli being back, and the needle between him and Jimothy is already there as Jimothy hurts on Oli's accent

Very interesting but now I have to pick up bits of my brain off of the floor, and walls, well, pretty much everywhere. Thanks?

Hi Tech Show, I have an old rim brake bike with wheels that have a 19mm internal width and 21mm external width. I currently run either 25 or 26mm tires, how much difference would a 28mm tire make in rolling resistance? Would it outweigh the aero penalty? @gcntech

That's a great color scheme, Alex, makes you visible even at night

Are your calculations that being on a lighter bike would only save 2 seconds based on a constant power output though? If so does that change if instead of averaging 300w constantly you averaged it by continuously accelerating and decelerating, doing 200 to 400w instead?

@GordonTWebb

9 ай бұрын

I’d assume they are using the relationship between w/kg and VAM which looks like this. Relative power (watts/kg) = VAM (metres/hour) / (200 + 10 × % grade). Assuming watts are the same between trials and the course is the same then climbing speed is relative to 1/kg so if he went from 70kg (rider plus bike) to 68.7kg he is going to climb 70/68.7 times faster (just under 2%) regardless of the power profile. Although I have this saving about 4 seconds if he climbs at 25 km/h over 1.5km.

@alan_davis

9 ай бұрын

​@GordonTWebb that's a long way to say "yes".

Hi GCN big fan here. Can you do some real wind tunnel tests ie side,cross on to the bike not head on. I feel this would make the results much more real life. Im hesitant to ride my aero disc bike with 45mm on a windy day as it feels so unstable. Compared to a rim brake low wheeled rim set up or even a low rim 30mm disc set up pls

What about aero vs lightweight in a crosswind and tail wind?

I'll take affordable

You say "weight doesn't matter" but what are the aero penalties for the extra pounds of rider? Unlike bikes, there's no aero benefits to being a heavier rider. Could you head to the wind tunnel with a bunch of blokes and establish a baseline number, and then either "watts added per pound" or a percentage / formula if it's not so linear?

Could you test the same segment with the same equipment a few times. i.e. same rider, same power, same everything. I'd be interested to quantify how much real world conditions affect these tests.

But Feather was standing for both runs, so it’s a moot point. The variable is the same each time so therefore not a factor on his runs.

2:14 right there. . . Boom!💥 my fkin Dream Machine

Does Ollie have a Donut media sticker shout out?! Definitely need to do a collab with car guys and bike guys. Both are more common than it seems

@jackzagorski7897

9 ай бұрын

??????

I'd have bought an aero bike...but, for example, my Emonda SL5 costs much, much less than the least expensive Madone. Granted the Madone comes with better components, but still...

That Panasonic tho

I am 1.5 to 2 mph faster on my Orca Aero compared to all my other bikes. I really enjoy riding it.

the wind tunnel is high in internal validity but low in external validity which is the one most riders will be interested in 🧐

@joelogjam9163

9 ай бұрын

I have to go through several windy tunnels on my commute.😋

@Doktor_Al

9 ай бұрын

😂😂

@ryoukokonpaku1575

9 ай бұрын

Just by having decents and flats in your route would make it apparent like they've stated imo. Unless your route is all climbs you can definitely see an aero bike's gains add up when you take into account the whole ride.

Lightweight helps everyone, but aero only helps if you are on a seated ride with a well disciplined rider that can hold a steady aero position. Take the best aero bike and tie a drag shut to it and see what you get. Simple physics.

Trek Madone just gets a nice from me for the environment killing ‘grass’.

Thanks Oli , your 90Kg rider comment just saved me spending £8k plus on a new bike. Need to have a word with myself 😂

Great discussion thank GCN. Beside the more leg exposure in standing position.I think the air turbulence and drag coefficient is more in standing position vs. aero position. Usually standing position has less speed going uphill hence the bike aero contribution will become less significant. That why I commented the aero bike for Andrew would be less helpful vs. I.e. Conner! My two cents!!

@oliverbridgewood3929

9 ай бұрын

the drag reduction from the bike remains roughly the same regardless of the position in my experience in tunnels.

No need to be in a kerfuffle, feather was, as an out of saddle rider, consistent between the two tests.

Yes Sir! I bought an aero bike! 😀

Suppose both bikes weighed the same, with the same rider and conditions. Is it possible to calculate the time savings based on just the aerodynamic profile of the bike? And if so, what is it? 😂 thanky

Did you toss the bike sideways in the tunnel? All tests I’ve ever seen have the bike stationary. Moving the frame sideways as Feather does, must ruin aero a bit if not completely.

I feel like for many people aerodynamics are very theoretical and hard to get your mind around I´ve heard from people that aero dynamics dont work because they thought it would add the watts you save on to the watts you produce (would be nice) but obviously it just allows you to go faster for the same effort so if you safe 7watts you will essentially go seven watts faster but not because its added on it´s because there is less drag

@uhis1686

9 ай бұрын

yes, which is why aero is good for anyone. since everyone will have to cycle into a headwind at some point eh?

@salzhaltigersalzhaufen586

9 ай бұрын

@@uhis1686 yeah that's it I mean it also matters without a headwind but the drag just isn't the biggest force working against you under a certain speed

@uhis1686

9 ай бұрын

@salzhaltigersalzhaufen586 i would need to look it up, but as far as i remember aero drag is actually the biggest thing holding you back from 15km/h upwards. Just more if you go faster

@salzhaltigersalzhaufen586

9 ай бұрын

@@uhis1686 yeah I wasn't quite sure so I didn't wanna make any crazy claims but 15k per hour should be something that we all can reach xD

The first 12.5 minutes is proof why boffins are so important, even if all you want to do is boil an egg.

What about the difference on stiffness of the two bikes. How many ways and time is that worth?