This is a really interesting discussion. I agree with Rupert Sheldrake that church services, ritual, observance of the church year are an important part of spirituality and I’m interested in his insight that priests and pastors aren’t necessarily the right people to give spiritual advice or to help with a spiritual journey. But I don’t think there are many churches whose members are encouraged to look outside or beyond the church for guidance in spiritual development. The Church claims to be a ‘complete package’, all you’ll ever need in your spiritual journey. Sometimes priests and pastors will actively discourage people from looking outside the church or dismiss experiences that don’t fit neatly into the church’s narrative.

I regularly grapple with the idea that even religious people today are influenced by the steady cultural shift away from the baseline mental conditions that find collective/community worship satisfying and significant. I appreciate liturgy and community and it is still a real effort to stay connected to the traditions. We're un-moored.

Absolutely love this exchange. I have always love your conversation together but this one really spoke to me. Blessings!

@PlatosPodcasts

7 ай бұрын

Thanks for saying so

Fantastic conversation, I really enjoy listening to you both. I began my spiritual journey in Buddhism, the Soto Zen tradition. However over the years I found a yearning to go to church and reconnect with my heritage here in the UK. A lot of Zen and Buddhism is obviously not so relatable culturally. It may take 100 to 200 years for a true wester Zen Buddhism to fully flower and feel like its a part of this culture. However I have found it hard to find a church where I feel I fit in. I have recently discovered a lovely Unitarian Chapel in Leeds that ive been going to. I personally think the Unitarian approach, while certainly not perfect, offers a great alternative to those who feel spiritual but not religious, and feel themselves needing a wider tradition to ground themselves in community. The services i have attended have been very moving and quite a mix of quiet contemplation and communal prayer/singing.

I recommend 'England - An Elegy' by Roger Scruton to anyone who appreciated this

@PlatosPodcasts

7 ай бұрын

Yes, an insightful and warm set of reflections

@stephenwinter5958

7 ай бұрын

I am an Anglican parish priest, currently the Rector of seven country parishes in Worcestershire with over 35 years experience in various roles. Retirement beckons for me and so I am in a very reflective mood at present. On one hand I am exhausted by the task of managing the institution (while having a deep affection for the wonderful people with whom I share that task). On the other I feel that there has been a subtle change of atmosphere in the last few years. Maybe it is a change in the culture, maybe in me, probably a mixture of both. But I am now regularly baptising teenagers and young adults, about 12 over the past year and I feel a deeper connection with people at baptisms, weddings and funerals. I am not seeing much of an increase in attendance at Sunday services but new people are turning up. We are pretty traditional so it isn't about new forms of worship. I also meet up with people just to talk about questions of meaning and find that once trust has been established people are ready to talk.

@PlatosPodcasts

7 ай бұрын

@stephenwinter5958 Thanks for sharing. Good to hear people responding to what sounds like the depth you offer.

I love your conversations- a civilised, humane, delightful antidote to the shrill rubbish that elbows its way into what should (in a normal, civilised society) be a respectfully shared public space. Please keep them coming!

@PlatosPodcasts

7 ай бұрын

Thank you

Many thanks for this conversation.

My feeling as a Christian convert is that I am participating in holding together the soul of the nation by going to church. Of course there are more fundamental things we practice in church that enable also this. My point is that deciding to participate in church has become a deeper feeling of connectedness to the wider culture in one way. But there are of course other ways in which I feel a greater dissonance to the current goings on in that culture as well.

@KevinMakins

7 ай бұрын

Beautiful. Humility is key, and local church and worship keeps us humble.

@matthewstokes1608

7 ай бұрын

Hear hear - I actually find Mark’s defeatist attitude dreadfully anti-Christian and woefully pathetic, actually… I think it is absolutely vital to the nation and for God’s will that all good people of His Faith begin a beautiful new era in Anglican flourishing… If we lead the way and encourage the young to return to the Parish churches, ONLY THEN will we see England and English culture saved from its spiraling down into cultural darkness. If we who have the power of the Holy Spirit in us in any measure can ALL go to church services EVERY Sunday for Eucharist once again, we will lead to a rebirth, and Christ wants us to do this, I strongly believe. I find Mark’s attitude once again seriously disturbing and lamentable… His whining attitude here is part of the disease, NOT THE CURE. This man is no Christian.

@MortenBendiksen

7 ай бұрын

@@matthewstokes1608 Interresting. I hear little of what you're hearing there. When I find myself low on faith, I go to Mark's channel, and get reinvigorated. I see his content as vital to pave the way for renewed spiritual participation. If people go in order to save the culture, it's going to fail. If they go to honestly give thanks an pray and in need to partake of the mystery of the Eucharist, it might also save the culture, and that is a great thing. I'm not in the CoE though, so perhaps I have less of a sense of urgency about the culture.

Non-organized religion, is a contradiction in terms.

YES!

Unfortunately, spiritual but not religious is something individuals say to soothe their souls while remaining ensconced in the solipsism of their own spiritual enlightenment, under the misapprehension that they can achieve this in isolation, without having to commit to anything or anyone other than themselves. As Sam Harris put it, the diamond of meditation has been removed from the dung of religion. The practices of yoga and meditation, plucked out of the context of their religious traditions are then embraced for the purpose of self improvement, which amounts to little more than a self serving spirituality. The other issue is that a number of people still wish to engage with the church when it suits them, for baptisms, weddings, and funerals. Many also come to church for an uplifting carols service at Christmas time. The obvious problem with this is that, unless you support the church whose services you call upon, that church may not be there when you need it. Church is always about people, and being in relationship with a community; and it is impossible to be truly spiritual as an individual in isolation.

@blackhole77

7 ай бұрын

Great ideas thanks

Mr.Vernon, did you ask this Buddhist monk what kept him going after his breakdown?

@PlatosPodcasts

7 ай бұрын

No. Though he stayed in the retreat for a total of four years and came out with it worked through to some significant degree, so presumably it was the pattern and rituals of the traditional Tibetan practice. The place he did it, Holy Isle off Arran, is a holder of that, as an off-shoot of Samye Ling

@michaelhollinshead6945

14 күн бұрын

One unspoken secret of a life devoted to meditation, at least in the West is the high rate of depression. Perhaps that is because it is an individual thing, not encompassed by a community as Rupert described in Tibet and India.

Reformers were adamant about the mystical union with Christ. Nothing they said makes sense without the context of that union. Not saying they were right about everything, or even most things. But the modern idea that reformers somehow got rid of that kind of language, is opposite to the reality. Their revival of this in many respects lead to the revival of mystical language in the eastern church as well.

Obviously the two of you can only speak about your local conditions, so I will add that I, as an American and somewhat unwilling former apostate, find it nigh impossible to find religious community due to the virulent political elements common here. It's hard to see how someone in this country who is not a reactionary conservative can find a community. On the other hand, I've tried the Unitarians but it's mostly full of crusading bourgeois liberals and I find it difficult to see where spirituality fits in to that strain. I tend to agree with David Bentley Hart that the trend is towards a dissolution and, perhaps as Mark says, a minimal remnant. It feels like a very lonely path.

Despite its shortcomings there is no giving up organized religion.

@PlatosPodcasts

7 ай бұрын

Not without giving up religion and spirituality with depth and bredth, yes...

A well considered discussion, very much UK centric, although you were both broadly supportive of organised religion, I didn't get much of a sense of optimism that organised religion in the UK would continue, there is a sense that it is continuing to decline, discussions like this could be part of a renewal. Here in New Zealand I think there is even less sense of Christian religion flourishing, we don't have so long a history of Christian practice here, although Māori spirituality may allow for some greater vitality. When I think of the US I am even less optimistic, much of the practice there seems now to revolve around the worst aspects of that society. I hope there is some spiritual renewal, but I am not at all sure what that would look like.

@PlatosPodcasts

7 ай бұрын

My guess is that, in the UK at least, organised religion will continue collapsing until it hits a minimal steady state.

@keriford54

7 ай бұрын

@@PlatosPodcasts Yes, that seems likely.

All belief is make believe. Merely memory/thought flipping back upon itself, reinforcing itself via repetition... usually enforced by external sources; parents, places of religious indoctrination, schools, etc. Belief is shallow. Hence, the endless blatant contradictions of the so-called believer. Of course, there is no believer simply belief. A most dangerous delusion.

@blackhole77

7 ай бұрын

It sounds like you are a believer of your ideas acting as an external force upon the minds of those who read your comment. You have also embodied a contradiction. Through your belief in delusions you have erected within your conscious... a delusion. It's okay, to be an observer it is inherently potential that we may inevitably experience delusion, but humanity continues to learn to work through and around delusions through faith and scientific rationale. We are all learning!

@haraldtheyounger5504

7 ай бұрын

@@blackhole77 That is your interpretation. Not at all what was said. I have no belief... especially in others changing others... especially via words. Words are way too superficial. A simple statement of fact is just that. At best, it is a challenge for all to look with more depth, to look with more breadth. As for humanity learning, where is that within the hundreds of thousands of years? Don't be fooled by externals such as technological application. The mentality is a meagre tool, yet taken as a god by most.

@KambizNazir

27 күн бұрын

You are quite on point. Organized religions job is to continue the broadcast of social programming. It has nothing to do with discovery of new paths to spiritual growth or discovery.