I'm pretty sure (someone correct me?) the bots did not communicate with each other at all. They all performed the best actions individually, independent of one another. So any "grouping up" that happened, was not a team decision to group, it was an individual "best place to be" to maximize my potentials/outcomes... isn't that crazy?

@somersault4762

Жыл бұрын

I thin the AIs don't communicate. But in the end it doesn't even matter. Because the decision making is exactly the same. If you have 5 humans you have 5 opinions what to do next. if you have 5 time the same AI they all have the same opinion of a situation.

@mahguvnah7403

Жыл бұрын

@@somersault4762 Even with 5 humans those 5 opinions are of a limited range of options.

@codefuntime3129

Жыл бұрын

yup individual max potential

@rikkiii4483

Жыл бұрын

so no matter how selfish you are, at the end of the day you still need others. isnt that sweet in a way that even ai with no understanding whatsoever still subconsciously depends on each other?

@KoloXD

Жыл бұрын

@@rikkiii4483 its not "dependence" tho, it is simply the most efficient way to accomplish its goal. Also it *is* a team game so it is pretty much unavoidable. This just means that design vise, dota 2 encourages working together as even an AI that looks for efficiency cannot do without. Either that or the developers of the AI put their biases in the code so that it shows.

the mentality that your "position" can change while the game is going is a amazing ability for you and your team to learn, sometimes your shaker can be a 3 until he gets a blink or some important item than you put a 4 or a 5 in his place and send him to open up space on the map as a 4

@stefangaleksandrov

Жыл бұрын

That's because some people always wants to carry :) They don't want competition. They don't want to share the glory. I play support and people report me if I get some of "their" creeps.

@scottiedpoy8508

Жыл бұрын

@@stefangaleksandrov The honor people play with is embarassing. Obviously you want farm on carry but if your support gets some damn boots and feeds less or gets a glimmmer and helps everyone feed less, its not the end of the world. I jungled a single camp the other day early on in game and carry got mad. Meanwhile theres 2 other camps and they about to spawn in 20 seconds anyway and all of sudden i am less useless. It didn't even effect his gameplay and i went on to gank with more. Long story short, people need to chill To be clear, I dont jungle on supports lol. Just 1 camp here and there to finish an item early on, depends on your hero too

I think they did add some artificial reaction time reductions and other mechanical limitations to the AI. For example you see them layering stuns relatively often which there's no reason for an AI to do, if two bots start a stun on the same target at the same time the one with the slower cast point would optimally cancel their cast and wait if they were programmed to play 'perfectly'. This is I assume something they did after learning from the original AlphaStar which would beat players by playing protoss and spamming out Stalkers with inhuman blink micro and no real strategy because of course it learned that with perfect play that was the optimal strategy in every situation. If you don't put mechanical limitations on the AI it won't actually learn human strategy, it will be heavily biased on favor of things that reward mechanical execution.

Bruh imagine the bot also starts trashtalking the enemies 💀

@TheRealKarma1

Жыл бұрын

I'd pull the plug atp

@wierdwackkerronii5838

Жыл бұрын

They already did come on the statistics is so tilting. Like what?? Are you really up ahead of us?? Then they will show some weird combo and they will work

@rikkiii4483

Жыл бұрын

wym "We estimate the probability of winning to be above 99%" doesnt sound like trashtalking

@Steve-up4jq

Жыл бұрын

it's just a simple code. devs can do that in 30 minutes tho if they wanted

@crystalblade1074

Жыл бұрын

I wanna see the next open ai whenever that will be use chat wheel

If you've noticed, the ai playstyle is literally how tundra won this year's ti. Everyone farming at any given point and only defending if necessary, while constantly poking at the enemies tower I guess tundra/aui was onto something probably analyzed the ai's game for some clue

The AI was seeded with human games. Following that it used a process called q-learning which is very loosely in the realm of brute-force, this did involve a huge amount of games played vs itself. The only thing that the AI "knows" is that a specific action in a specific context is likely to result in victory, that means that intentionally drawing aggro is as much an ability to it as, say, frostbite.

I think there were some heroes and items limitations. But i think they also added a 0.2s delay for AI reaction, to reflect ping/human reaction. But they play so coordinated teamfights that it feels unbeatable.

@geraltofrivia2570

Жыл бұрын

That's interesting to hear, but for humans, in larger fights those 0.2 seconds, would actually be 15+ seconds. Also AI keeps track of every cooldown, stuff which humans could never do. But creativity wise, the AI is probably pretty stupid.

the Dendi Vs OpenAI is also worth watching. I find it is a good display of how terrifying AI can become in the future.

The thing with the percentages in the picking phase is if you take the pick that the AI assumes is the best pick in this position you will stay on the current percentage, because the percentage shows the win percentage if the AI would pick the rest of the heroes and the AI would always pick the best options. So any other option is either equal or worse, can never be better.

I think about this set every single time people in chat say that playing a certain way is completely wrong. The AI feel clueless at times but they're confident about the win the whole time because they're planning ahead, and getting value every time OG overcommits resources to make a play. There's cases where it's true that people play wrong, but never experimenting means nobody ever learns a unique skill. Everyone is trained to expect specific scenarios and the meta stagnates way more quickly than it would naturally. And yes it's true that the AI are actually playing the game and not just maphacking constantly. At least, that's what we've been told. It's a shame they discontinued this AI, seeing what developments the AI could discover just on its own would be insane.

The future of Dota 2 would be flexible heroes and in-game switching positions.

It would be fun to see, that then pro team plays vs open AI, and AI suddenly asks permission to book pizza delivery. :D

@ihavetubes

Жыл бұрын

Or to call the police on their address

Imagine AI trained on 45.000 years of low priority queue dota.

Craziest thing to me is how good the split farm is. It's not concentrated in 1-2 heroes, like most of our games. Crazy to thing that that might be optimal.

@darlingdevil1575

Жыл бұрын

Split farming makes sense in some line ups, especially ones with item hungry supports like a CM. Sure, she’s the poster child of sacrificial pos 5, but she is also one of the scariest supports with farm. Same can go for a lot of other supports. It also removes the onus on one player to carry as hard when everyone has the power to kill in meaningful ways.

@kugelfisch2222222222

Жыл бұрын

support meta has been getting more and more greedyier even more so now!

@stefangaleksandrov

Жыл бұрын

Long time ago there wasn't such thing that support shouldn't farm at all. Later it did change because people decided that this is the "meta".

@-grumpygold1155

Жыл бұрын

its ofc the most optimal, but only if you are a dota god that can predict things like ganks that could happen to you and even baiting a possible turn for even more gains, for the AI more networth is the only thing that matters to them because computing probability is just child's play

@DragynFyre12

Жыл бұрын

I think there's enough farm on the map to make sure each hero gets major items at meaningful times (completing an item vs banking gold/carrying components is such a power spike I'm sure the AI understands). The problem is, we are risk adverse creatures and there's a lot of risk to the a majority of the farm on the map. I think the AI manages risk reward much better than humans. It definitely shows when you're expecting the two cores with all the money to 2v5.

Sadly OpenAI had very clouded decisionmaking, it was rewarded for gold-gain/xp-gain/kills/destroying buildings etc etc and it also followed programmed item and skill builds. As such, I don't think you can say that it's strategy evolved organically and that really is a shame imo. Nearly all of the AIs skill comes from the superhuman reaction time, perfect spell casting and perfect map awareness. The AIs strategy was very flawed overall. -The buybacks are explained by AIs not caring about 'gold lost' only 'gold gained'. -That the AI always goes for Ranged Barracks is explained by the reward being the same for both barracks and Ranged simply being squishier. -The Salve-spam was due to a 'current HP' reward. The AI wouldn't even stay in their lane if it wasn't for the penalty for 'being in the wrong lane'. The AI may still be impressive in some ways, but I really don't think there's anything a human can learn from it.

@zzzzzzz8473

Жыл бұрын

some good points , and likewise agree this iteration of OpenAI's bot was kinda cobbled together as their paper goes into , even originally built on hand-coded scripts to guide/coach the reinforcement learning agents , and did "surgery" over the course of training to add features resulting in a frankenstein. i think would be very different if they were to approach it today , or if DeepMind would do a "AlphaZero" style version . however i wonder if your assumption is correct about its victory being purely inhuman advantage , rather then its "strategy" / alternate meta . firstly the reaction time of the bot is 217ms compared to human average of 250ms ( likely pro players have better ) so its not that far ahead there , map awareness however it likely has significant advantage unfortunately . overall i think we can indeed learn from it and at the very least reconsider some of the inherited assumptions of our own isolated meta . hopefully the next version will have significant limitation on apm / map awarness tickrate etc , like deepmind did with starcraft2 bot ( tho even that still did some inhuman micro ) .

@oyuyuy

Жыл бұрын

@@zzzzzzz8473 Yeah, inhuman mechanics is pretty uninteresting in my opinion. But 217ms is indeed very inhuman btw, humans can only achieve that consistently when anticipating something specific and have 0 input delay. In practice, pros don't even consistently react to spells like Axe's Call or RP, those have 0.3s cast time (and there's additional delay between Blink and cast too). They even miss getting abilities off vs Arcane Blink+Requiem (0.84ms) quite frequently. The AI has 217ms reaction to anything that can happen, anywhere on the map, without fail, it's a massive advantage. 350-400ms would be more fair.

@zzzzzzz8473

Жыл бұрын

@@oyuyuy Thank you for the clarification , your absolutely right , i overlooked that 250ms avg was in sight-response tests which is by far best case scenario , and doesnt properly compare things like a well timed combo sequence or multiple players chain CC'ing . map awareness is an interesting one that DeepMind tried to humanize in starcraft2 by forcing the agent to move the viewscreen , rather then its first iteration that observed the full map . what you said about " 217ms reaction to anything " is i think the most important aspect in that right now the agent may have an attention / concentration economy that is inhumanly large , like when we're last hitting we're not also holding all the enemy predicted positions + all the neutral timers + enemy ability cooldowns in our heads at the same time . its difficult to estimate based on the layers of the network if the agent could do this however it would help to keep things balanced if somekind of "concentration limit" could be implemented for AI-human competition . lastly i dont mean to disparage the accomplishments of the OpenAI's agent , and i think there are indeed things we can learn from it . not simple things like build this or do that , but to adjust our weighting of values in strategies , the heavy macro , objective focus , instant buyback , no position style , is something different , and in general that we can become overly sure of ourselves and the meta thinking things are optimally solved when there is still lots to explore .

@oyuyuy

Жыл бұрын

@@zzzzzzz8473 Yeah it's very difficult to account for all the difficulties humans have compared to computers. For most other practical purposes, you don't want AI to have those restrictions either. It really makes you appreciate how well humans can do with their limited capabilities though. What OpenAI did was of course still impressive in it's own way, I just think it would be much more interesting to how it would beat humans strategically rather than mechanically. Since the games were so even despite the AI having huge mechanical advantages, I think it's reasonable to assume that it isn't anywhere close to the level of human strategy just yet.

We need a team of AI + 1 human and every DotA game can become truly blameless. You are responsible for your play and can't control the other 4 AI players. Fast matches 24/7.

@purpleisthesneakiest

Жыл бұрын

you already know a lot of people will complain that their AI was bad or "glitched" or something like that when they lose

@MK77755r

Жыл бұрын

@@purpleisthesneakiest to be honest, I play with bots and some games some bots are not buying any items from the start to end. Not even a tango. Some games the all team is without items. It generally happens on my team but sometimes on enemy team as well. So yeah, currently that happens. In those games, the most broken hero is BB. Because they don't position to the front and they never use silver edge. At the end my team bots have combined score of 1-25-7 while I have 30-2-1. And with BB I always win :)

@ihavetubes

Жыл бұрын

​@@purpleisthesneakiest I would jump back into dota of they added ai bots in, games would be fun.

I'm always fascinated by stories of people trapped in places where time flows faster, and they spend thousands of years in a short span of real world time. A.I. training to play games is the epitome of this. Trapping itself in a mental simulation where it plays millions of games against itself over thousands of years at insane speeds to not only learn the game from scratch without an ounce of coaching or guidance, but to master it and surpass the best human players in the world. The one advantage humans had was the ability to learn, to adapt. Now, A.I. can learn much faster for much longer, unaffected by mental fatigue. :)

31:05 "some ppl in chat talking about some artificial skill lowering reaction time" --> yes and no... they had to increase the time interval in which the bots check everything on the map in order to lower the amount of data going into the model, and thus be able to train the model faster

Is this OpenAI available in the client? I only tried matchmaking AI

Next project: Open AI against wc3 world champions (ft. Grubby)

I still come back to watch his take on AI tilting the opponent with IRL personal problems. Like completely ripping someones life apart just to get ahead at Dota 2. It's absolutely hilarious to me 🤣 but so true

Grubby's AI POV trash talk is on point.

Crystal Maiden jungling as a support in a free lane is extremely common. Her Frost Bite is potent against the big creeps as it has prolonged duration, at level 1 it can kill the bigger creeps requiring just 3-4 hits.

@TheDominionOfElites

Жыл бұрын

Yeah but she wasn’t even using frostbite here right?

@Krolmark

Жыл бұрын

They only need to make it so the AI actually uses frost bite.

@dtibvgz8441

Жыл бұрын

@@TheDominionOfElites Yes, but she was also clearing mostly Satyr's which are smaller and would waste more mana by using Bite. Frost Bite is more effective on large creeps with a lot of health.

the match of Dendi against an SF openAI bot was also insane to watch.

Loved your comments in this one Grubby - thought provoking, but I also laughed out loud several times.

FYI the AI uses the "rewarding" mechanic. It is like training a pet, you get a plus point for each "right" action that leads to positive result and minus point for each action that leads to negative results. The AI will decide its action based on the huge data set (like few thousands years worth of matches iirc). They used an accelerated time dota2 simulation and run like hundreds of them in parallel. In real time game, depends on the rate that is set up by the programmer, each action will affect the average result of the data set that will change the AI's behaviors. BTW OpenAI does communicate to each other because they are programmed to do so using machine language. You can learn more about this by google machine learning.

My favourite part is AI trash talking each other🤣🤣

Grubby's place is among the OG team, maybe in a few years

There's the Liquid coach presenting there at the start! I loved Blitz as a talent.

I started this game when everyone shared the curiers that had to be bought and upgraded. Live in Dota2 is so much more convenient these days. Best game eva

when dendi played with ai 1v1 on sf without any handicaps he had his ass handed to him so hard he ragequit the last game

love seeing these games with ai , bringing entirely different meta , really challenges some of our inherited assumptions . so much of moba's are specific knowledge , like at x level can i defeat a CrystalMaiden 1v1 , but this ai CrystalMaiden is not playing typical support they are equally core as the others and therefore the calculation of the humans needs to be recalibrated . the starcraft2 game with DeepMind showed similar false assumptions like humans fear of ramps ( perceived unequal trades from high ground position ) , the ai showed its not that unequal from low ground and push thru . we have lots to learn from each other , looking forward to next Dota2 AI game with full roster , and would love to see OpenAI vs DeepMind .

33:00 I see whoever programmed this robot set it to "No Fear, no retreat! Keep Pushing, Keep fighting!".

You should check out Pain Gaming vs OpenAI. That one was pretty hype too!

could they do this or deepmind with wc3 and play you?

It's funny that he was baffled by the salves while we started doing it after open ai till they finally nerfed it when he started playing

I think an early push strat would work against ai, furion top, shaman mid, undying ezalor and dazzle trilane. Furion and shaman join bot lane after they level 6. 5 man push early game

Can you imagine how good this ai now?

@azzor4134

Жыл бұрын

They stopped training the AI after this afaik.

@Zarzar22

Жыл бұрын

I'm surprised the AI even play regular lanes. I wonder if just absolutely breaking down the game format has some statistical advantage to be discovered

@MrRafagigapr

Жыл бұрын

@@Zarzar22 i think they used to play with 1 hero in each lane and 2 in jungle and they had to correct that if i remember because the ai gave so much priority to exp

@azzor4134

Жыл бұрын

@@Zarzar22 Remember reading that OpenAI had 'incentives' (or biases?) to speed up the training proccess where the program(mers) would give it points if it did certain actions. Something like that.

Grubby: listen to what they are saying Me: I would but you keep pausing every 15 seconds!

Now imagine the future will be like ai vs ai, like whos the smartest ai

@abadninameneces736

Жыл бұрын

they got already something like this on Sc2, people were trying to pull out the best ia against ia mechanics/gameplay...btw those games are insane

Where are they now? I don't hear of open AI any more. Do you guys know?

I remember this was when TI 8 True Sight Premier, so before TI 9

We need OpenAl vs OpenAI2

"bkb as soon as they might engage." That's spoken like someone who hasn't manta dodged Slardar's blink+stun 3 times in one game while playing as Sniper.

Oh wow I remember watching AI learning Dota way back when I never knew openAI was behind it that's pretty wild with how AI has become a whole thing nowadays. As for the game it was really interesting how the humans seemed to prioritise getting kills while the AI was always focused on objectives

Now we need ai vs ai

Black beat the openai in a 1v1 SF mid. I believe it was the first human victory against the bot. It is a little scary.

Just here to send you my grow man love!

Why are you saying it's played on 11-December-2022 when it's played 3 years ago?

I'm pretty sure this was a limited hero pool match, not all heroes were available iirc

Darksouls/Elden Ring but it's Dota 2

I think that the growth of the bot's learning ability is rising up in a geometric progression. Knowing the actual learning patterns of the bots may be very useful but also misleading if compared with the human behaviour.

Jerax always out of nowhere skills.

if you would like to have an answer to this question there should still be a video of day9 and purge where day9 talks about complexity of starcraft compared to dota 2

What's your fav pos?

the same ai chatgpt used?

I was expecting after OG said "ez" the ai would have said "no hands"

Try and get into div 2, would watch that for sure

Would love to see the ai control meepo or arch worden

This is not after TI9, this was april 2019, and TI9 was september 2019. Chat is bullshitting. OG reached its absolute peak after this match.

@DedeJasindra

Жыл бұрын

when was chat ever right?? kek

If you missed the catch: They were playing with a really small hero pool of less than 20 heroes. Of all these heroes Earthshaker is the only one you ever see OG pick in their normal games during the time. So the AI was good, but not THAT good. This detail was almost always (conviniently) left out when people talk about the match just for added shock value and doompost.

if they didn't reduce the time reaction then the AI will pretty much avoid everything player throw at them, you can try to play bots game against insane AI and try to sunstrike them and every time they will just avoid it perfectly if they ever saw you cast it

Just because you can't replicate everything AI can do doesn't mean there's nothing to learn from it. It may have been tilting for Kasparov himslef, but top level chess has improved massively because of AI, it's given us a sort of tactical renaissance. Especially with the more human-like neural network engines.

I think AI will have high probability to beat human in games. Their response time, their calculation is always above us. And human have feelings (second decision, intuition, ect) that can be our biggest enemy sometimes, AI doesn't have that which I think is their biggest advantage. A well-programmed AI like this, can beat human pretty easy

Still hoping for a TI7 video

its actually before they win second ti because this is from april 13 2019, and ti9 is in fall

You should watch the AlphaGo vs Lee Sedol....its fascinating. EDIT: Just got to the part where you mentioned lee sedol...so scratch that recommendation since you are already aware.

Dota in 2035: "And for the first time in 5 years a human team is qualified for the finals. OG vs Google AI for the grandfinals of the International, I hope we see a better competition than the easy work Google AI did vs Microsoft AI last year."

@rajahzia

Жыл бұрын

yeah that never happens. look at chess.

@tw1nzstrpur3

Жыл бұрын

@@rajahzia Are chess AI banned from competition or are the humans just better?

@philipsorensen617

Жыл бұрын

@@tw1nzstrpur3 The top chess AI's would never lose to a human player. The best AI in the world just reached 4000 elo rating, while the best player in the world , by comparison , is 2800. In fact there are cases of top chess players using the AI to cheat. AI's compete in their own tournaments, seperate from human players.

@tw1nzstrpur3

Жыл бұрын

@@philipsorensen617 Interesting, thanks for the info chess isnt really my forte lol.

@rajahzia

Жыл бұрын

@@tw1nzstrpur3 There is no real competition btw humans and Chess computers anymore as the chess engines are extremely strong. The best human chess players in the world have no chance of beating an engine once even after 100 games.

the only thing that this match tells us that sniper is simply op and very easy to play :D

7:40 get a strong laner like a timber saw. Timber will own the offlane 1v1 and around 7-8 min he can keep farming too get fat. Or if possible rotate too distupt the agressive trilane.

@pappaOfswe

Жыл бұрын

Wont win the early game. But if your team does this well, then you can win mid game.

lmao that Gyro bot got mad💀💀

the AI is playing positionless dota it also prioritize heroes who can easily clear out waves with minimal resources spent and heroes who grant extra vision

The AI was trained as a general intelligent AI. This means there were no hard/fast rules. They have learnt by current state + action -> result a trillion trillion times. (maybe not that many times) Therefore the AI doesnt have super powers, its just a super intelligence.

1:01:55 Afaik one of the best Go players in the world straight up retired because AlphaGo had solved the game.

more of this

No dust💀

For anyone who would like to play dota 2 against bots, the best ones available and updated are "A Beginner AI:NEW" in the workshop.

38:22 **B A S E D**

Have anybody talked about how openAI thinks about gold and last hits very different then OG

This is after ti9

was there really only 1 courier in 2019? I thought 5 couriers was a thing since 7.0. Dude we are old DESPAIR

Nobody going to comment about how Sven in 01:18:50 predict where Jerax going to blink so Sven blinks there ahead of time?

You know if you have some stupid robots moving around randomly only able to push things to the side they will create piles ? Thats just how many stupid things together can do something "intelligent"

The reason all of these people from all of these different professions get "Tilted" after losing to AI, is purely because of belief. It shatters what you thought you knew. When this happens to a human being that has felt a passion for something ever since youth, and has spent countless hours striving to be the best at whatever craft they are practicing, Its psychologically destructive when their consciousness realizes just where exactly they fall on the spectrum of skill and intellect. It defeats the ego and forces you to either try to replicate (which could drive you mad and make you worse than where you were before), or admit that you arent as good/smart as you believed yourself to be. The future is going to be crazy. For I see we DO NOT have a choice but to "INTEGRATE" technology with biology. IF WE DONT,,,,its not that the AI will take over the world and destroy us....but instead the AI will create such a complex and sophisticated environment, that we will not know how to comprehend what actions must be needed in order to survive within it. As the physicists say..."The universe tends towards disorder".

You should watch waga beat open AI

Put that OpenAI bot into a team of 4 average pub players and observe what it does! Allow it to chat! Show me what it would say to manipulate its flesh appendages into doing its bidding!

DOTA is so mechanically easy an AI could easily master this game.

It was a great time

jesus ceb fed a lot

where is the chat???? i wanna read those T.T

NiiCcE Riki Riki escape

AI reaction time will be always faster than humans specially under stress and quick decision situations. See those chain CC and buybacks that makes no sense at first but AI play by numbers not human logic.

The real reason OG disbanded

I also recommend watching Team Secret 15-0 at DAC, Na'Vi the Six Time champion at Starladder, Dendi trashtalking Puppey live, DotA 2 - Stay in the Trees and so on and forth. :P

That percentage is like chess engines. If OG makes the best pick that percentage won't change, but if they make any pick that is not the best pick that percentage will go up

Btw keep in mind that years of AI learning are not equal to human years of learning since AI have no cultural background (which humanity accumulates for thousands of years), no real world experience, no instincts baked by million years of evolution. AI even cannot read spells description lol.

Chat giving you so much misinformation here. The AI wasn't "programmed" to do anything, it played thousands of games against itself with a limited hero set and made its own decisions about what is right. All it started with was a limited objective set, for example "gold is good" and "dying is bad". Originally it was just a Shadowfiend learning to play mid, and it spent virtual months standing in base because of the "dying is bad" objective, before it balanced out relative to its other objectives and ended up playing in an optimised way. All ths stuff chat is saying about programming limitations on last hitting etc. is just plain wrong. The whole point of a learning AI is that you don't program in set variables or conditions. I'm a computer scientist.

@dajair01

Жыл бұрын

Item builds were programmed at the very least

@raiffesilva4908

Жыл бұрын

Yeah items were programmed, items would be another very complex mechanic that they would have to train for.

@zzzzzzz8473

Жыл бұрын

agree with you chat was incorrect on a lot . however its important to note that OpenAi's technique for this agent was quite muddled , and not clean self-supervised reinforcement learning that we would expect from them today . their dota2 paper goes into it more , tho to summarize : the early reinforcement learning agent was guided / "coached" by hand-coded scripts , additionally the agents could choose to use these scripts as part of their action-space but mostly fought against scripted agents . similarly item build selections from a predesignated list could be chosen by the agent. Mainly this was to seed the diversity of the environment with challenging agents and to reduce the training time needed, spending less time with agents who did complete nonsense , however it makes it also not true to say the agents learned purely from reward driven selfplay . as the agents became more sufficient they " removed the training wheels " of scripted actions available and added more features the agents could choose and observe , however even this was done quite directly like specific reward-structures . while ultimately the RL training could weight the usefulness of a "staying in your lane" reward it is an explicit reward designed by humans . i dont mean to disparage the work that was done , as i think its actually a great example of real-world application of techniques , throwing everything at it , reducing training costs , hacking together something that actually works . im greatly looking forward to seeing the next iteration with the full roster of characters , and specifically version that is trained from zero .

@perceptoshmegington3371

Жыл бұрын

@@zzzzzzz8473 interesting, I didn't know they'd done a white paper on the methodology will need to check that out, thanks

@zzzzzzz8473

Жыл бұрын

@@perceptoshmegington3371 right on , its interesting for sure , not a " this one thing is all you need " at all . lots of iterations and hacks made possible by the continual training "surgery" saving 15x training time compared to if they had to retrain from scratch . there is even bloopers in appendix Q , like randomly getting +5% winrate , or my favorite is that they had chose to ban Divine Rapier because it messed up their reward learning rate due to the chaos it introduced in games .

First thing that came to my head is rat dota

N1 neither OG didnt even take this seriously cus its from a very limited pool of heroes & items so no "OG never being the same after this" is absolute bullsh*t and whoever said it i hope was trolling the built-in input delay is true at least for some instant-cast spells like Hex cus otherwise u'd never b able to initiate

Warcraft 3 for micro and macro understanding, that coupled with the fact that nigh on all the dota 2 heroes have some kind of variant in wc3. Maybe this is coming from a bias standpoint however as I've played dota for many many years so the concepts to me aren't maybe as complex as they once were. I think I agree with openAI on this one, it's difficult to say. :D