I believe Paige Shue was sponsored by Dynamic Discs before, during and after she was pregnant. Took some time off and came back still playing with DD. It may be that in this case Macie's contract was ending and she was now negotiating a new contract. So going into this new contract she would have a pre-existing condition preventing her from fulfilling her obligations. Sticky issue for Macie/DD for sure.

@ValetteRenoux

5 ай бұрын

I'm sure Paige's father being an executive in the disc golf world, currently with Dynamic Discs, had no influence.

@ryry562000

5 ай бұрын

When she came back last year she left DD and signed with discraft for a 1 year contract and resigned with them

@arklave

5 ай бұрын

@@ValetteRenoux While I agree that Doug likely played a part in his daughters status at Dynamic, he left DD almost a year ago and works solely for the PDGA now. Which is why I have found it confusing that when DD is mentioned in the video they have Doug onscreen, who has been gone for some time now.

They didn’t drop her. She was up for resigning with them. They made a lower offer than she liked because she wasn’t playing a full season and she chose not to sign with them

@armlock311

5 ай бұрын

They made her an offer that didn’t pay for her expenses to tour. That’s the nice way corporations say they do not want to do business with you.

@cup_and_cone

5 ай бұрын

​@@armlock311 They made her an offer based on the schedule she wanted to do.

@mmdoof

5 ай бұрын

If court was to find this being an employment contract, it probably wouldn't matter. Chaining short-term contracts usually doesnt relieve the employer of their duties as that would effectively be just a loophole.

This whole thing is so complicated. How I see it is the company wants her to be present and play at a certain number of events. Her value is based mostly on how she plays and performs. If she can't play and can't perform, she has less value as a sponsored player. I would think if she was offered a value for 20+ tournaments and the value for 10 tournaments was less than 40% of the regular value than they are discriminating against her for her pregnancy. Her per tournament value doesn't go down until she is she is away for a while. Although they may be able to argue that her value was higher at the events she will be missing like the 2 majors she'll probably miss. The real question is, how much do you think this will impact negatively on Dynamic Discs sales? Will future sponsors also be afraid to go there based on how they handled this situation? I personally feel they need Macie more than she needs them. They got Ricky Wysocki and Zach Melton for MPO(Ty Love also but played 1 event 2023??) and FPO is tricky since they have, Sarah Gilpin (933 rated, 13 FPO Events in 2023), Raven Klein (933 rated, 23 events played in 2023), Kona Star Montgomery(922 rated, 14 events played and on Supreme Team which is highest team under World Champion Team, Natalie Holloköi(922 rated, 7 FPO events, 1 FPO 40+ from Switzerland). Carli Charron(911 rated, 9 FPO Events) and Emma Arp(905 rated, 32 FPO Events in 2023). Macie on the other hand is rated 966 and has 23 FPO events in 2023 played. She is going to play a bit less than half of that this year. Other facts of the 23 events, 3 are B Tier, 3 are A Tier, 3 are Majors, 13 are Elite Series and she played Throw Pink Women's which was a XA tier so a higher A tier? She cashed in ALL but one event in 2023. She finished 2nd @ Music City Open an Elite Series Event. She won an A tier and got second at another. She took home $22,840 in earnings from tournaments in 2023. She earned more than Zach Melton($1865) and Ty Love($25) who are both on the highest non World Champion Team. Kona who is the third member of that team earned $2,195. Paige Shue who left DD earned $10,499 this year and is rated 950. After all that I think they are just stringy when it comes to cash. Also paying Ricky $1 mil a year doesn't help if you don't have the McBeth disc sales to far exceed it.

I love these videos and the insight to the intricacies of the law, but at least after this video there were few things that I feel were left un-addressed. 1. Macie was out of contract so whether a disc golfer should be considered an employee or a contractor is imho irrelevant. I think at this time she is neither, but rather unemployed. 2. I don't think we have sufficient details on this "updated offer". If Macie is committing to less tournaments and DD was willing to pay a lower lump sum in relation to that reduction in work load, it would make sense and be fair (financially speaking). 3. What comes to the point about equipment, I think the disc golfers use their own equipment that they, not the sponsor, own. They just happen to be provided to the players by their sponsors. EDIT: Just to be clear, I don't think the current situation is fair towards women, but above I'm talking more about the pure contractual aspect of this "controversy".

My question is, was her current contract up or not yet? If it was then she was not under a contract and looking over new ones. So would it not be up to her to accept or not? If she wasn't under contract still, then the company shouldn't be liable to keep her regardless at the end of an expiring contract.

For a wide variety of issues in contract negotiations (and other issues), I'm waiting for the time when pro disc golf athletes have some sort of representation. Whether that's by a sports management group, a union, or something else, I'm not sure. But it seems to me there would be some advantages to such representation, and that the benefits would, or at least could, outweigh the drawbacks.

@pbgamble

5 ай бұрын

Agreed, there needs to be a player's union.

In terms of delegating work, DG pros may often delegate things like video production to a team around them. On the other hand, the sponsor can provide them with the media assets as well.

A few factors surface in my mind. First of all, whether and employee or a contractor, the period of her agreement was fulfilled, and she was negotiating new contract and new terms, and I would assume would have some sort of provision on the number of events that would be played. Next season there are 11 majors, and 23 elite series events, And of course many many others. And of course the regular A tier events (or lower) you wouldn't expect a pro to do (with the exception of a couple, such as Blue ridge and Texas State which are both A tier) but this still leaves a minimum of 34 events that at the very least are reasonable options, and although most pros they don't play in all of the elite series events most at least play in some, and many play in a fair number of them. But most pros play in all of the majors. For comparison, she played in 24 events last year. Sponsors are paying for exposure of their brand. The more people see pros using a particular brand of product, the more likely they are to try said product which means revenue for that brand. So they are likely assuming a similar level of exposure, and I would be surprised if that was not part of the contract given the fact that she is not a content creator such as Simon or Bodanza, the latter of which just received his sponsorship based almost exclusively on his social media presence. And if she had something similar where even if she was not competing she was still exposing people to the brand, then that would be something different, but in her case if she is not playing, she is not performing the service that she is being paid for, so if you are negotiating a contract with the expectation of a certain level of work/service being done And then the person being contracted comes back and says "well actually I'm only going to do about a third of that", you are a very unlikely to be willing to pay them the same amount. And, going back to the point at the beginning, she was not terminated from an existing contract. This was a new contract for new employment, and the offer was based on the amount of services that would be provided, and nothing to do with the person. They didn't present a lower offer because she is pregnant, they present her a lower offer because she was going to be providing less than half of the expected services in return.

More complicated than just how much they are on the course. It’s how much plastic they sell that puts the value on the contract.

If player plays less than 50% of the season, that player should be paid less than when playing 100% of the season. If you work part-time, you get paid less than full-time employee. It is as simple as that. What would people think if Aaron Gossage would say that he plays only half of the tour and sponsor said that they can't offer as much as they would offer if he played a full season? Most likely these people badmouthing DD would say that he should get paid less because he plays less tournaments. It is not about pregnancy. Work less = get paid less. Why doesn't Macie and her representatives present an option that Macie will do a lot of social media and videos when she is not touring. Trying to increase DD's sale by other ways than playing and doing well on the courses. Of course then Macie would have really needed to put effort in social media. Maybe they presented this option, or not. She would have been paid the same if she had an ongoing contract. Another option for her would have been sign a new contract and get pregnant next year. I raise my hat to her that she was open about it, but gave DD this chance. Of course DD could have been generous and given the contract she asked for, but she probably asked way more than what she made this year. Or make a contract that this year it would be lower and next year increase the pay.

@mjdiscgolf1355

5 ай бұрын

1. She didn’t ask for WAY more. She knew she’d be playing a shorter season, she asked for enough to go out and play those nine events based on how much we spent in 2023 per event. What we were negotiating was less then what she made last year. She wasn’t expecting some sort of raise or equal pay. I’ve been seeing way too many people say that(not you just pointing it out). 2. We did talk about other ways to generate some income. 3. You’re correct it’s not about pregnancy.

Companies have to take all costs in mind when offering a contract, including risks. If they have a pregnancy provision, or if they are forced to have one, that risk will lower the amount of money they can offer FPO players.

A good portion of this video's broll is showing former Dynamic Discs employees. For example, Doug, AJ, Macie. Kind of shows how things are going.

@angelajones6222

5 ай бұрын

Danny Lindahl, their content creator, is leaving also.

@mojoeks

5 ай бұрын

@@angelajones6222 A big loss for DD but very happy for him.

It is absolutely not more complicated than she would not be able to play as many tournaments as someone who would be touring full-time. Also, the company may provide her with tools of her trade, but they do not own those discs she does

Whether they could or couldn’t do it (and without knowing DD’s stance)… it doesn’t seem like a good look for Dynamic.

@goobiesgamegarage4517

5 ай бұрын

Dynamic Discs does not care about looks.

@koroba01

5 ай бұрын

Yes, I had the same thought. The look of it could suggest that DD does not pay attention to the human side of the player, in fact her pregnancy could draw additional positive attention which could be good for DD. Otherwise DD is treating players like throwaway chattel (“…you are pregnant? Ah, bummer, here’s the new offer, take it or leave it”). She should go to Innova.

@ephboulder

5 ай бұрын

Nike had a similar issue with their sponsored athletes and it was not a good look. They were forced to be more supportive of pregnancy. It is really not a good look and I sincerely hope that DD re-offers the original contact without anyone being taken to court.

She was not terminated, her contract was up, therefore there is zero legal standing for Macie.

This is a non-issue. Her contract was up and they were negotiating a new one. Even before they knew she was pregnant they offered her less than she thought she deserved. But then she notified them she was pregnant and would be playing a shortened season. DD then reduced their offer because she wasn’t going to be representing them much this year. That’s perfectly fair! You shouldn’t need a lawyer to sort this out for you.

@mjdiscgolf1355

5 ай бұрын

Well said.

@arklave

5 ай бұрын

DD dropped the ball here. The Kona acquisition has ruined their FPO team. Paige, Holyn and Valarie all jumped ship to Discraft after Kona got picked up with her "Kristin Tatar money" contract. Putting aside Kona's recent health issues, its no secret her track record while playing for DD has been less than stellar. In Macie's case she was actually a pretty good FPO player, rated 960 something and was literally DDs top FPO player at the time. Now I'm not privy to all the details, but given the turnover rate the past couple of years, why would DD not be compelled to accommodate their top FPO player? They made 0 acquisitions in the off season and continue to bleed players from the pro team for the past couple of seasons. Given the ebb and flow of what manufacturers have the best players, DD could very well fade into the background for the foreseeable future.

As an ee she would also have FMLA.

@cup_and_cone

5 ай бұрын

There was this Mormon woman at one of my previous jobs, one of those religious ones that pop out like eight kids. She had five kids back to back...boy was that a pain for the company. Work 9 months, gone 3 months, work 9, gone 3, etc. It started before I got there and continued after I left.

This is circumstantial at best

This is all just another swirl in the flush of DD going down the crapper.

I thought they were dropping her for not play tournaments. She is cutting way back on what she is playing. I feel like people do not understand business. They think with their emotions and emotions are almost never right. Use you head.

I can almost see why you wanted to make this video, delving into some of the intricacies of player and sponsor relations. However this situation seems really cut and dry and I see no discrimination or dishonesty from either party. Just a company who wasn't willing to pay a certain amount to a player who wouldn't play a full season. I'm almost positive that, even with her disappointment at the amount she was offered, Macie fully understood why the amount she was offered was lower.

@mjdiscgolf1355

5 ай бұрын

No doubt

I think that DD shot themselves in the foot with this one. It could have been a great possibility to be in the eye of public with new DD baby has been born contxt overy social media etc. I can see that they misused this great oppurtunity to make new hardcore fans in childloving communities.

My question is, since the new contract for entire season was lower for the 20+ events, was the 10 event contract about half the original offer? Is the issue she is pregnant or only playing 10 events. If it was 1/4 the offer it is about the pregnancy and horrible. If it was about the same per event then it's at least plausible. Obviously they missed a huge opportunity to pay her for a normal season.

Innova should jump on this and make an announcement just for the goodwill publicity.

Definitely not a good look for DD even if it is legal. There were definitely ways DD could have spun this to mutual benefit and came out looking great with the community. This does the opposite.

@shifty1016

5 ай бұрын

I think anyone with a rational brain would understand that it wouldn’t make sense to give someone a bunch of money when they are likely going to represent you on the pro tour at a much lesser rate than they did previously.

This is a clear cut issue. It's an offer for a personal service contract.

DD blew a chance to benefit from Macie's pregnancy. They could have publicized the event, hosted parties at the various tournaments, created baby disc golf merch and really played it up. So, now, instead of having fun with it, it turned into an unpleasant scene. This reinforces the fact that corporations, large or small, are only interested in profits and not the welfare of their employees/contractors. Somebody at DD really messed up big time.

@ibanezrg7421

5 ай бұрын

None of that would make them any money.. so as a business, why? This is emotion driven. Zero logic. They are a business.

First men are allowed to play in FPO now you get penalized for being pregnant? The disc golf community has set women’s sports back 60 years 🥳

Just to help you out its a quick search for non lawyers so I guess you're not a lawyer. Among the sports in which the participating athletes have been considered to be employees are football, baseball, basketball, and hockey. Among those in which they have been considered not to be employees are golf, boxing, wrestling, skating, and midget auto racing. In the first group of cases above, there was generally an owner, manager, trainer, coach, or captain who had the right to direct and control the details of the player's activity. In contrast, in the second group of cases, the sport was generally one that involved athletic competition between individuals rather than teams." In the case of individual type sports such as boxing, wrestling, golfing, skating, skiing, tennis, midget auto racing, or track and field, the promoting organization normally provides no training or coaching, and has no right to influence the outcome of any competition. As these athletes under contract have developed a style and reputation which makes them a drawing card, no right to control their style or manner of competing is contained in their contracts. On the contrary, the promoter merely selects the type of event in which the athlete will participate and schedules appearances. My suggestion unless you want me to make a channel called the real disc gf lawyer, you should learn how to critically think and do research.

The change in the contract was based on the fact that she went down to only 10 tournaments... This is fake drama click bait

It’s hard to listen to this cadence

Can you smoke crack and be professional in said sport?

😅😅 I hope Natalie Ryan doesn't get pregnant. 😅😅

@SkunkyLorrie

5 ай бұрын

No worries there