Making your system sound different is easy, "better" is where the waters get muddy.

@brainache555

3 жыл бұрын

Better is totally individual so i don’t know why there’s a debate at all.

@khoi83

3 жыл бұрын

,,Better,, than what? What are the criteria? Very difficult questions to asnwer

@brainache555

3 жыл бұрын

@@khoi83 To you this thing sound better than something else you tried.

@khoi83

3 жыл бұрын

@@brainache555 define ,, better,, then

@vcp93

3 жыл бұрын

@@brainache555 Couldn't have said it better myself. 👍

I started reading the comments and instantly hit the tired old “If you can’t hear a difference, then you’re too poor...’ comment which Thomas already blew a hole through: that you could have a colored system (expensive or no) and it could be extremely hard to tell any difference. Similarly, how many of us have played our systems proudly for non-audiophiles, convinced that it was going to change their lives and all you get was a “Yeah, it sounds OK, I guess. My Bose Wave radio sounds good, too”.

@TheRealJohnHooper

3 жыл бұрын

😳😆

@dudemastermaster8944

3 жыл бұрын

@Sean MacDonald yea funny enough same applies to my aunt 😄

@doronor6552

3 жыл бұрын

I think that the only person you need to please and impress with your sound system is yourself. Who cares what other people think or say?

@bobb.9917

3 жыл бұрын

A Bose Wave "is" my sound system, too. It ROCKS!...and....No cables to worry about! 👻

@evshrug

3 жыл бұрын

2 things: 1.) A $12 Belkin Gold cable from sounds significantly better than a generic OEM/Office Depot cable off the shelf for about the same price. No, it’s not because the USB plugs are gold plated (gold isn’t a great conductor, but it doesn’t rust easily), it’s because of the stuff inside. So, you don’t have to be rich enough. 2. I’m an absolute novice when it comes to wine tasting. Sure, I’ve heard of the terms “Dry” or “nutty,” but I don’t know what a “dry” liquid tastes like, and even though I’m 34 I can’t say I’ve had a wine that reminds me of cashews or walnuts. With headphones, Ten years ago, I could hear stuff like “more bass” or “muffled” because I had plenty of life experience about such things, but I had no idea what “digital hash,” “modal distortion,” or even what a 1 kHz tone was. Yep, there is surely placebo where you think you’ll hear something because someone said you should, but a trained ear is also better at separating the wheat from the chaff. 🌾 When it comes to cables, I was a non-believer, shorter or more ergonomic was ok, and someone else can buy a pretty cable but it wasn’t for me. I even had a company proudly let me compare their cable vs stock, and tell me it should be obvious the difference, but I just could not. That all changed for me when a friend brought a $650 cable over for my HD 800. I was utterly shocked how much clearer and fuller everything was... the HD 800 wasn’t experiencing a frequency shift, it just sounded like I was hearing _more,_ and the change in transparency and clarity was bigger and more noticeable than many DAC changes. They were ready to help me do blind A/B comparisons, but the first time going from stock to the 3rd party cable was not subtle and, for me, well outside the realm of placebo. I can understand not wanting clearer headphones though. “Demons” by Imagine Dragons has AWFUL drums, super distorted and digitally mangled no matter if it’s from a DSD file or a Spotify Stream. But you can’t tell as easily on a Bose wave radio, and two days ago when I heard it at the grocery store the ceiling speakers couldn’t make the drums be audible at all. My mom also prefers the softness of a blurry distorted Bose wave radio, because she just likes a little relaxing melody while eating dinner or teaching yoga... she prefers instrumental music, so it’s actually better for her if lyrics are unintelligible. There’s all kinds of audiophiles out there, and I won’t say someone else is wrong for seeking a certain kind of signature.

"Why no double-blind cable test?" Because some audiophiles get hurt , they want to live in a dreamworld.

It’s with videos like this that you earn respect and credibility. You and The British Audiophile are my 2 favourite channels channels.

@TombstoneTube

3 жыл бұрын

@Jingle Nuts Oh, Gene and his massive measurement rig are being sued by Synergetic Research because of the snake oil accusations against the company. This has became an epic dispute with. True story! You can follow it in a FB group called Real Audiophiles

@beyondonethousand

3 жыл бұрын

@@TombstoneTube DellaSella does a great dis-service to the hobby both 2 channel audio or high end home theatre. Gene is no benefactor to the industry except make nothing but accusations. Good on Denney to go after that guy. Dellasella did this to himself.

@beyondonethousand

3 жыл бұрын

@Jingle Nuts Hates cables but reviews 9k pre/pros and comes out with a conclusion "gotta have it". He is no benefactor to the industry/hobby.

@totalplonker824

2 жыл бұрын

@Jingle Nuts not the same gene who thinks 'false economy' cables are same as expensive cables! Lol

@bunsw2070

8 ай бұрын

Playboy is my favorite channel, though I admit those ladies are fairly bashful. And all funny cat videos are great too.

My goodness you’re a brave man to take on not just cables but the measurement arguments. I think you nailed it. Sensible, intelligent and informed. Bravo.

6k cables? imagine what a solid set up you can have with that

@trekjudas

3 жыл бұрын

6K cables are for people who have near 100 thousand dollar systems!

@boostedmaniac

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah agree. $6k in room treatments would make a def noticeable improvement, more so than any cable could do.

@friday1314

3 жыл бұрын

@@boostedmaniac there you go

@fatdoi003

3 жыл бұрын

$6k cables is when your power amp/s and speakers are at least $20k each

@joeycastillo1496

3 жыл бұрын

There is a lot more that 6k will offer somewhere else in the audio chain

This is THE best commentary on cables I have ever seen, read or watched! Very good!

@ThomasAndStereo

3 жыл бұрын

Glad you enjoyed it!

Thomas. This video was awesome! Probably the best explanation and most well thought out video I’ve seen on this subject

@ThomasAndStereo

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks!! I gave it a lot of thoughts before making the video because I know it is a very sensitive subject.

@redleather420

3 жыл бұрын

Yes it was a great video and just to state my my opinion The only people who think cables don't matter are people who either can't afford it or have never heard it. Some guy showing you a measurement doesn't tell you anything about anything :-)

@khoi83

3 жыл бұрын

@@redleather420 I disagree, measurements are reliable but only show PARTS of the picture, but not the whole picture.

@redleather420

3 жыл бұрын

@@khoi83 they show you if something is broken or not that's it. ASR just measured a cable and said look it didn't change the frequency response or distortion therefore all cables are fake snake oil. I mean you would think these science people would be the intelligent ones but they do science worse than a second grader.

@tothemax324

3 жыл бұрын

@@redleather420 ASR is not science, its a pseudo religion

If you have difficulty figuring out if a product improves the sound, save your money. Use it to buy products that make a big difference. For the ultra high end and people with money to burn, small differences may be all you can get.

@ThomasAndStereo

3 жыл бұрын

Completely agree. That is why I tell people don't bother with cables until the very end. You get way more return spending money elsewhere.

@buttonman1831

3 жыл бұрын

@@ThomasAndStereo The other thing about that Thomas, the more resolving your system is, the easier it is to hear a difference.

@allansh828

3 жыл бұрын

that’s what I thought when I spend over 1K on power cord. I know the actual material cost is probably like 20 bucks but I just can’t deny the change in sound quality.

@allansh828

3 жыл бұрын

@Jingle Nuts to me 1K is a lot. I invest most of my savings on crypto so hopefully I can afford a legit system after the current bull run.

@vcp93

3 жыл бұрын

@@buttonman1831 Precisely, if you have a mediocre system, putting high end cables/interconnects in the mix will not yield any "substantial" improvements.

Great video, I really don't know why some people get so angry regardless of which side of the fence they sit on. If you think that expensive cables make a difference then buy them, if you don't, then buy cheap ones. Either way, be happy and respect other people's views and most importantly, enjoy the music!

@gasandbatteries9833

3 жыл бұрын

people get angry because companies are selling 12,000 $ a/c power cords to gullable people. those of us that have comon sense know its wrong and are trying to educate these people.

@ThomasAndStereo

3 жыл бұрын

@@gasandbatteries9833 I can understand the motivation, it is like wanting to stop someone from getting robbed. But what if it is a reasonable price?

@nycbass78

3 жыл бұрын

@@gasandbatteries9833 why the anger though?for some people who have that kind of money to spend, it would probably equate getting an Armani suit and putting on a cheap Old Navy belt instead of a Gucci one.🤷🏻‍♂️

@Audioloon

3 жыл бұрын

@@ThomasAndStereo Hi Thomas, congratulations on presenting this hi-fi edu! Excellent from start to finish. Okay, so what is a reasonable price for an I.C., power cord, coax, etc? From my experiences and my budget, $300 is the absolute max and closer to $200 is what I prefer to max out at most of the time. Now on a related topic, I have also discovered pleasing results using Toslink/Optical cable and it's much, much, more affordable than coax or I.C's. If I find the optical cable to my liking and affordable then the $ saved with the optical allows me to consider a tad more refined power cord or speaker wire. Anyway, do you A/B any optical-vs- coax or optical-vs- I.C.? Thank you Thomas.

@gasandbatteries9833

3 жыл бұрын

@@nycbass78 well there is more to it than just that. cables are a con job. false advertising. no proof. no blind tests. alot like the junk sold on infomercials. alot like churches on tv that steal money from sheeple. hate to see it happen and things are getting done about it. Amir from audio science reveiw is one of the people doing something about it.

Congratulations Thomas, this is the most concise, most relevant video on the nature of double-blind tests for audiophiles! I am adding it to my playlist of recommended videos for audiophile education. :)

Quickly becoming the best Audio Review KZread Channels available. Keep up the great common sense videos!

Lucky are those among us with such carefree lives that it takes a cable to cause upset.

@No_Limits_411

3 жыл бұрын

True

@tothemax324

3 жыл бұрын

Thats why there will never be world peace

@gizzy2403

3 жыл бұрын

well, u know there are people out there that if they were condemned to die, standing @th gallows in front of th hangman, would start an argument over which type of rope was best!😅 I'm afraid that type of personality is plentiful in th audiophile community

@Justwantahover

3 жыл бұрын

@@tothemax324 True

@nycbass78

3 жыл бұрын

@@gizzy2403 lol touché!!That would be a polyhemp blend rope of course.😁

"for those of you who dont believe in foreplay, and just want to jump into the action..." Thomas has good sense of humor, lol.

@markrigg6623

3 жыл бұрын

I wonder if he was speaking from experience?

hi Thomas, one of your BEST videos so far - keep it coming please - I loved it (irrespective if I "believe" or not)

One of the most compelling and comprehensive explanations. I think it just comes down to common sense.

Strange fact: I only started to think about cable replacements when I was fully content with my system.

@bobb.9917

3 жыл бұрын

Is there something wrong with you? The whole point about audio is to never be fully content with your system! 👻

Finally someone who thinks logically. Personally, I don’t use expensive cables because, at my budget, I think the money is better spent elsewhere. However, I always wonder how so many people can say they hear a difference in cables and other people absolutely dismiss those people’s opinions. The amount of distrust baffles me. I am yet to do a blind test on myself, and for that reason, I have no basis for a valid argument. One day I’d like to go to a high end shop and try out some cables for myself, but even then I’m not sure I could call the results accurate. I’d have to bring them home and listen long term like you mentioned. Anyway, I always appreciate the approach you have on these topics. You clearly lay out your beliefs and give reasons for them. Even though I am almost completely a DIY guy, you are my favorite reviewer because of your way of thinking.

Great video on a sensitive and complex subject. You kept my attention to the end - which speaks volumes. Well expressed Thomas and clearly the distillation of much deep thought. ;¬) Thanks and greetings to you and yours.

Best arguments I heard about measurements and the cable debate. I have a method for upgrading cables. My dealer recommends several used cables from his stock, without him telling me the prices, I bring them home and test them with my system for several days until I decide which one I like the best. When I tell him my decision frequently it was neither the cheapest or the most expensive one that I picked.

Here is my largest concern with this debate... I have a decent and transparent system... yet every time I sit down and listen it never sounds exactly the same, even though I am using the exact same equipment, listening position, and music. Some days I am so impressed with the sound, other times I don't like what I'm hearing. So for me it becomes hard for me to fully trust my own ears. I need to listen for many sessions and assess over a period of time... which makes judging minor differences from cables just that much more unreliable.

@oldschoolaudioenthusiast

3 жыл бұрын

Amir, as a audiophile for almost 50 years I've experienced similar phenomenon with my modest yet transparent system. I've come to the conclusion that there are many other variables which can influence all of this. For example, voltage fluctuation and noise in the AC Mains, room temperature, relative humidity, (important for speakers,) warm-up of the equipment, break-in routine, night or day, listening with eyes shut or eyes open, (don't laugh there's a perception acuity issue here which exists,) etc. I suspect that if you can minimize these variables that you too would begin to also hear minor differences in cables. I belong to the camp that cables do indeed perform and sound different just like all other "components" in your system. Basic electrical measurements are very helpful indicators IMHO (LCR) regarding what to possibly expect however at the end of the day it all comes down to achieving synergy with your other components even in support of any individual listening preferences. For what's it worth, my financial investment in cables translates to ~ 7-8% of the $ value of my entire system when it was originally purchased. Significant but not ridiculous.

@dudemastermaster8944

3 жыл бұрын

@@oldschoolaudioenthusiast I changed my powerchords and powerstrip and minimised this fluctuation nearly to zero. Cheers

@crazyprayingmantis5596

3 жыл бұрын

Your own mood is a factor that most people don't consider.

@spacejaime

3 жыл бұрын

Amir - trust your ears, I've been at this for 40 years and the same goes with my different systems. Read Alan's comment below (or above) - therein lies the answers to the nightly sound fluctuations. Cheers!

@matthiasteubner1923

3 жыл бұрын

You probably should consider to try a good AC mains filter/regenerator. That may reduce fluctuations.

I was actually surprised to be able to hear a difference between two sets of speaker cables, something I never thought possible.

@dingdong2103

Жыл бұрын

And you with most certainty didn't hear it this time either. James Randy has 10 000 dollars waiting for you if you pass a double blind test and hear a difference between two cables. Go grab it...

Thanks again for this video addressing tricky issue. There is something that also can make a difference in cables difference audition : the room. I experienced myself two different rooms when I changed home. The first one was acoustically very poor, high reflexion, hard floor.. and cables change was spectacular. Now I am in a better room and some changes are more difficult to assess. I am testing 5 different speakers cable and it is not easy to discriminate even if some differences are audible.

@ThomasAndStereo

3 жыл бұрын

For me, if it takes a lot of energy to hear the difference, there is no difference.

Thank you for making this video :D it's what's needed in this community.

Perhaps your most compelling video. Very well articulated. Bravo! IMO, audiophiles would be well served to listen with an open mind and to keep their minds open. FWIW, I’m confident that I’ve heard cable differences, but not in every instance.

If you apart from the scientific method add a couple of university points in psychology regarding cognitive biases, projection and placebo effects you will come to understand much about high-end audio. Someone who's just dropped 5k on a cable is very inclined to hear some kind of change which they then will want to interpret as "better".

@ThomasAndStereo

3 жыл бұрын

I would not disagree with you there that what you said is possibly true, we just need to do the double blind test to confirm first. Then we come up with possible different reasons why that is true. Is it placebo? Or is it true there is a difference.

@crazyprayingmantis5596

3 жыл бұрын

Don't underestimate the power of suggestion

One of your best Video’s Thomas !

I respectfully submit to you that an accurate blind test is not expensive to conduct. One does not need to live with a cable for months to notice a difference. All that is needed for an accurate blind test are the following: 1) A space, doesn't even have to be sound treated 2) A panel of volunteer test subjects 3) HiFi audio equipments 4) The cables to be blind tested.

@ThomasAndStereo

3 жыл бұрын

You forgot the beer. 😁 I am sure it can be done with a budget but it depends on what you set as conditions.

@robertocalvo934

3 жыл бұрын

This is precisely why the Molingordo/Matrix Hifi tests done in Spain a few years ago are so interesting. They were done in a very amiable, controlled setting, by audiophiles themselves with no agenda whatsoever and with exquisite etiquette. The results are there for anyone to explore.

@ThomasAndStereo

3 жыл бұрын

@@robertocalvo934 I saw it and I would have changed certain things because I have an issue with some of their criteria. For example, they asked people to choose the 'best' system, well best is different for different people so are they testing the system or are they testing people's taste? I can go on and on but you get my point.

@robertocalvo934

3 жыл бұрын

@@ThomasAndStereo I think your are mistaken. At least in the first meetings the ABx test was : can you tell apart one system(10.000 euros) from another (700 euros). They weren't asking subjective questions but rather can you tell me which one is A and B, which they couldn't (it seems that when you match sounds levels things get knotty )

@ThomasAndStereo

3 жыл бұрын

@@robertocalvo934 Well at the bottom, it is written at the bottom of the page "Well, to avoid being subject of such arguments, we have gone from the usual DBT questioning "wich is the one"? to "wich one you like best"? This should eliminate the pressure that so often is called upon to demerit the use of DBT's, furthermore, on this occasion there were not preagreed a max listening time, and each listener/tester could use the music of his choice."

I have to give it you Thomas, nobody ever mentions the scientific method when talking about measurements and science. I also studied science in University and applaud this video. Excellent video!

@solarfall2728

3 жыл бұрын

I talk about it all the time. I was starting to think I was crazy, because you're right. No one ever mentions it. And out of nowhere, Thomas comes and saves the day.

I liked the Glas Bottle, can analogie the Most, because it comes to show what minor differences can determine if the human prefers one thing over the other, although at first the determining factor wouldn’t come to mind. Cheers.

A very good contribution to the cable discussion. Based in science and being respectful of either position. Thank you.

I suppose that people may well hear a difference between speaker cables, but more importantly it should be which cable do you prefer. As a conduit for sound between the amp and speaker, all you could really hope is that the cable makes as little change as possible. This means no cable can improve the source material, but they can mask the tones, separation of the bass, mid-range and treble as well as impact the soundstage. All I want is the most transparent cables.

Thomas... EXACTLY. YOU SAID IT PERFECTLY. And yet, many will still not get it.

@RobWhittlestone

3 жыл бұрын

GREAT VIDEO THOMAS! I really like your presentation and argumentation. I am a physicist (with specialities in solid state and acoustics) - and we are very used to the idea that 1) we don't know everything and 2) if the observations don't match the measurements, then *it's clear that the model we are using is inadequate* That is the history of physics! Cables may measure identically with the limited measurements we make but obviously *something we don't yet know about* is making the difference we experience. I really liked your hamburger analogy. And I don't agree with the people (eg. Amir "science=measurements" Audio Science Review) who perpetuate the falsehood "no measurement difference on this 1kHz sinewave or frequency sweep means no difference in sound". I know psychoacousitics is also a factor, and also here we also don't know very much. Personally I do think that there are significant effects independent of my brain's processing that are causing audible differences (remember when we switched to Teflon dielectrics?!) which have to do with electron flow, crystal boundaries, skin effect, relative phase of different frequencies, dielectric behaviour, and more as well as inductance, resistance and capacitance. Thank you for making this video and your quiet reasoning was very enjoyable. All the best, Rob in Switzerland

Great video man!

Super video, well done and well put.

This is perfectly stated, cables absolutely matter but it takes time and experience to listen and learn. My best advise to those starting out in this hobby is to buy used, research and read all you can.

@ThomasAndStereo

3 жыл бұрын

Great tip!

Hey Thomas. Great video. I totally agree that you shouldn't ask someone let alone a youtuber to do a blind AB test or a double blind. Not because they are not qualified like you said but because of the "cost" - some are, just like me from a background of doing such tests and it is not hard to learn about a true double blind test if one is serious about learning about it (especially in the modern day of information, it is no unicorn) But the cost and complication that goes into it is something that people often do not consider.

@ThomasAndStereo

3 жыл бұрын

Yes, that is wrong of me to say that all KZreadrs are not qualified. Anyone who understands the scientific method and understands what are the possible factors that can influence the outcome of a test is qualified.

@bruce8429

3 жыл бұрын

Not until they go to an audiologist and have their hearing checked. Like the guy who ran the ls3/5a shootout at ls35a.com did. He gets an A++ for honesty.

@Jayiyagi

3 жыл бұрын

@@bruce8429 kzread.info/dash/bejne/pICq0riGlbK4ntY.html We certainly did

I think there are multiple problems around the subject of cables. For me the biggest is knowing that there are great profits to be had, which makes me very suspicious. Another one is the lack of measurements or other proof by the manufactor: if you claim your cable has better inductance/resistance or shielding you should be able to proof them. Lastly at least for me I think the placebo effect to be one of tge most underrated phenomena in Hifi. For examppe, I was listening to a headphone and than went and EQed it to be more neutral. After EQ it was the best it ever sounded....until I realized my dac drivers circumvent the eq software. I felt stupid and the headphone went back to being not that great. So I suspect people perceiv differences, be it placebo or real, but for me I doubt the difference to be meaningful enough that it would change my experience of my system, but i might be wrong.

Is it possible that the type of amplification in the Devialet amp is less sensitive to the different electrical characteristics of different cables than a class a/b amp?

@ThomasAndStereo

3 жыл бұрын

Sure, but it could be some setting I enabled on the Devialet that I was not aware of too. Or maybe synergy with the speaker.

There are at least two integral part of science here as well: empirical evidence and replication of studies. Both are present in cables: there are overwhelming reports of empirical evidence showing results in sound differences between cables, and those differences are replicated (and confirmed) by multiples sources in different parts of the world; therefore those differences reasonably exist. If measurement can’t explain those differences, then we at least know that at the moment the measurement technology is not able to explain the phenomenon. Thank you Thomas for this wonderful opportunity to discuss the topic 🔥❤️.

Well said Thomas. I myself don't believe that cables make a difference. That's also why I really admire what Amir of ASR is doing. That being said I don't hate people that think they can hear a difference. Maybe there really is a difference but I think for the majority of CASUAL listeners like me won't even hear or notice if there really is a difference. That's why I myself just can't seem to understand why some people spend an enormous amount of money on cables. Which is most probably the reason why people who have the same opinion as me feel like these cable companies are just snake oil salesmen and just trying to fool consumers. Gene of Audioholics had a similar experience with Audioquest which gave him vague explanations. I know you feel that cables do make a difference and I respect that.

@johnlim7720

3 жыл бұрын

I myself wonder when these cable companies proudly say what their products are capable of but NEVER post their test results or measurements to prove their claims.

@vmpty

3 жыл бұрын

Forget Amir and forget Gene. Follow your own ears. Test good quality used cables in your system and decide by yourself. I did, with used cables, without knowing their exact models and price, and in my system, there was clearly a difference in sound. After several days I picked the one I liked the most. It was neither the cheapest nor the most expensive, but definitely better than my previous cables.

@johnlim7720

3 жыл бұрын

@@vmpty I'm into movies and not much music listening. Something like 95% I use my system for Home Theater. I just use good cables nothing exotic or outrageously expensive. I would rather spend it on gear than cables. I even listened and tried my friend's Mcintosh amp and tried to compare it to his Denon AVR and I couldn't tell any difference.

@vmpty

3 жыл бұрын

@@johnlim7720 if you do mostly home theater I fully understand what you mean. In my own HT setup I don't mind much about cables either.

Having 30 years of being an audiofile and hearing many cables, id say having a highend system makes a difference in cable sound.

Thank you for your information about anything in this video....nice info

@ThomasAndStereo

3 жыл бұрын

Just for fun.😉

Excellent video Thomas! Whenever I hear the people make arguments on either side of the cable debate (but too often the measurement guys) I am reminded of Neil DeGrasse Tyson when he said: "A great challenge of life: Knowing enough to think you are right, but not knowing enough to know you are wrong."

Awesome vid I'm a cable believer Thomas thxxx

I love your video generally and this one in particular

Hi Thomas. What are tower speakers on either side of you? Thanks.

@No_Limits_411

3 жыл бұрын

Sonata MK something. They are one of his favourites

@ThomasAndStereo

3 жыл бұрын

Silverline Sonata

Best of the bests. Best explanation ive ever heard on this "delicate" subject. My favourite yt channel. Its a pleasure to whatch your video. 👏🏻

Note: I might have stated the incorrect value of the resistor. Please keep comments respectful and intelligent. This is not a video on the value of cables nor about do cables sound different so let us stay focus. Please note the photo showing the inside of the network was a speaker cable and not the cables shown in the thumbnail or at the beginning of the video. Link to sound demo: kzread.info/dash/bejne/m6141cShj6ydqNY.html Link to Jay's cable blind test video: kzread.info/dash/bejne/en572Zqzp9uTZso.html Coke tastes better in a glass bottle? For fun : www.southernliving.com/drinks/glass-soda-bottles-taste#:~:text=Glass%20is%20a%20more%20inert,the%20purest%20Coca%2DCola%20flavor.

@heinzbecker691

3 жыл бұрын

please do me a favour and try a nordost frey 2 power cord on your amp and your player!...listen to it one hour...than go back to a realy cheap power cord. if you realy dont hear any difference...you were the first one🤣👍 you can skip your power cleaner if you want!

@tallpaull9367

3 жыл бұрын

Thomas, start a crowd funding to hire the appropriate group ( ie: Nasa ;) for a proper double bling test. You could organize this with other audiophile KZreadrs to get audience to participate, suggest cables... Possibly involve some measurement folks (ie: audioholics, audio science review...) This would be very entertaining for sure.

@PlaybackMansion

3 жыл бұрын

This is the best take so far. Bravo! I'd also like to throw in that the scientific method serves to minimize cognitive biases. In Alcoholics Anonymous the first step is acknowledging you have a problem In Audio testing the first step is acknowledging you have a bias

Good treatment of how to use the scientific method. Measurements are one form of data and may or may not be capable of determining the outcome of a question/hypothesis. EVERYTHING in the signal path makes a difference or even better yet, everything that impacts the signal path makes a difference. Good job explaining the difficulties of real unbiased observation.

Personally, I think this is your best video so far, and you made it at the right moment. I truly enjoyed every second. I do believe we usually create our own reasoning according to how we feel. "Proving" something is not done usually by just one test or one database. That is why in the medical field it takes thousands of research to make some assumption "acceptable".

@ThomasAndStereo

3 жыл бұрын

Yes, exactly my point.

I work in the electronics industry, every engineer I talk to says "of course cables make a difference, but only to a point, so be careful". Difference doesn't always mean better either.

@crazyprayingmantis5596

3 жыл бұрын

I'm assuming that's supposed to say "doesn't"

@doctorbritain9632

3 жыл бұрын

@@crazyprayingmantis5596 yep, typo

As I always said, I personally hear a difference. I totally agree it depends on your system. Some cables will not manifest a difference from one to another because of your components. Thomas you know this is a very gutsy and explanation. I'm not going to name any names of youtube channels but I could guarantee as he views this video, he will be fixing his glasses and rubbing the rest of his hair. You my friend Thomas remind me of one thing my dad told me as a teenager; 'it doesn't matter if someone speaks bad or good about you, the important thing is that you are always the topic of the conversation.'😉 Congrats Thomas, this is simply fantastic.

@Yiannis2112

3 жыл бұрын

So that goes both ways I guess. For both Thomas and Gene. They both are the topic of your comment.

@Chapterrifik

3 жыл бұрын

@@Yiannis2112 who knows? 😉😂

Best video about cables I've watched thus far! 👌

@ThomasAndStereo

3 жыл бұрын

Glad you enjoyed it!

@djhmax09

3 жыл бұрын

@@ThomasAndStereo Do you think cable manufacturers know why cables make a difference? Or are they keeping that information to themselves? Logic dictates that they should know but of course there are exceptions...what do you think Thomas?

Thomas. Ure argumenting and summoning up, around this subject. Is the absolute best Ive heard. Not only cause ive come to the same conclusions. But cause you (oposite me) are skilled to put it in to understandable words and a good conclusion. Great chanel great humble personality. Thankyou. / J

1 dollar resistor on a cable hmmmm. On the bright side Great video Thomas

If you place a resister in the signal path, of course it will make a difference in the sound. The amplifier will have to produce more voltage to overcome the resistance.

@paznewis107

3 жыл бұрын

Was it in parallel, like just along side, what would that do?

In your opinion, what sample rate and bitdepth would I have to use to capture the audio of two playbacks sufficiently that I would be able to demonstrate the difference between a recording made using a high-fidelity cable vs the cheapest hook-up wire you can think of?

@ThomasAndStereo

Жыл бұрын

If the cable sounds different enough, you will hear the difference even with normal cds

Thanks for the video.

I have. a degree in physics, worked in academia for a while. I think that it's only folk who haven't worked in science who act religious about measurements. I use statistics every day in my job. When I come home i enjoy listening to my musical, distorted tube amp with big horn speakers - because they sound great.

@turiddu9

3 жыл бұрын

I might modify that; engineers rather than scientists I have found most unpersuadable on cables. The actual scientists generally take the scientific approach whereas engineers rely on 'established' dogma.

@jefft275

3 жыл бұрын

@@turiddu9 Engineers are generally very practical people and also reliant on their equipment and calculations. If the machine tells them that the resistance and capacitance of the wire are the same, then of course you can't hear a difference. The concept that sound is interpreted somewhat subjectively by people or that there may be some aspect of sound reproduction not captured in basic measurements escapes them.

@starofcctv94

2 жыл бұрын

@@jefft275 If its not captured in basic measurements feel free to suggest what kind of measurements should be used. In fact maybe the cable manufacturers could tell us what measurements they use to evaluate their cable designs?

@andyboxish4436

Жыл бұрын

@@turiddu9 engineering is inherently an unthinking field. They believe in the "good enough" approach for every component in the chain, and believe making components better than they need to be makes no difference.

I eat Butter Chicken with basmati rice while watching this! No need for a good wine or beer! Thanks Thomas!

Thank you for the info great work Thomas... I always trust my ear and happy with my vintage system... 👍👍👍

Thomas, thanks for the reply. It actually sounds as if we are in complete agreement. My apologies if I missed your point or didn’t spot the sarcasm first time around. Still a fan.

I haven’t purchased any cables that cost significant money. I was given something called a MusicWave speaker cable to try out. These were priced from $450-$2000 US, based on gauge of your cable. The device attached to the end of my ordinary14 gauge wire. I wasn’t really given an explanation of what it was supposed to do, but for me I could not hear a enough difference to warrant the spend. I must add I’m well over 60 so my hearing will not be as good as a 30 yr old, just for example. I think that’s the bottom line for cables. Advantages Vs diminishing returns.

😂. THOMAS.... YOU BLINDED US WITH SCIENCE 😂. I LOVED IT🤗 THANKS FOR OPENING OUR EYES👀. And maybe a few minds 🤔 enlightening NEW ONES 😉😍😍😍

Every single piece of reference audio gear ever built to this day is tuned by the ears of its creator in its final stages of r&d before they go off to production , cables , speakers , source components, amps , room, treatment , etc In the professional audio / studio environnements , the benefits of high performance cables / internal wiring , got settled about 25 years ago ,

@ThomasAndStereo

3 жыл бұрын

Yup, well you are an expert at this.

I agree Thomas. Best to keep an open mind on the subject and leave it at that.

@crazyprayingmantis5596

3 жыл бұрын

Sometimes you can open your mind so much that your brain falls out.

@chutgowdingo-loon3212

3 жыл бұрын

​@@crazyprayingmantis5596Has not been my experience. How about you ???

Thomas, you look so cold! Stop buying gear in the winter months and turn on the heat! Lol Fellow Canadian Wayne here, from Vancouver!

@ThomasAndStereo

3 жыл бұрын

I just need to turn on one of my tube amps :)

I myself have 5 pairs of different High-end speaker cables. I switch cables every now and then. Sometimes I hear a difference, but to what extent do I hear a difference. That cannot be explained. It is about hearing and how well you can listen at that moment, concentrated listening is never the same. Because we often feel different. That is the biggest link in High-end. ✌😉👌👍

@crazyprayingmantis5596

3 жыл бұрын

If cables made a differences that you can hear, you should hear the difference ALL the time, not sometimes. If you can only hear the difference sometimes, then the difference is YOU

@JDG1971

3 жыл бұрын

@@crazyprayingmantis5596 That's true.

A love your analytical approach to the problem with testing (cables or anything else). The biggest obstacle and biggest variable by far, of any test is the Human in us! Our past experiences and assumptions, our willingness to accept and embrace the results, even if they’re different than our beliefs AND over all the need to fit in, being bias just to be part of the majority even if the conclusions are against it. Human mind is a powerful device, untestable and unstable mystery.

Great video. Thanks for your input.

@ThomasAndStereo

3 жыл бұрын

My pleasure!

I have been doing this a good 50 years now. The last 30 in a dedicated room with some pretty nice gear that has only gotten better and better. In all that time I have never once felt the need to double-blind anything. If I hear no difference I hear no difference and away it goes, whatever it is. If I do hear a difference and it is better then and only then does it stay. Been doing this with an incredible long list of things, many of which will have eyes rolling big time. But here is the thing. Often times when people come over I will change something, and my favorite is to do it while they are listening. Take the cable elevators off and lay them on the floor. Put something under a component so the spring isolation no longer works. Turn the Active Shielding off, or remove or change a tuning bullet. All kinds of different things like that. And you know what? Every single time they hear it. Every single time! This has been going on for so long now, it hasn't been since the freaking 1990's there was any doubt. Maybe some day these laggards will catch up with where real audiophiles were 30 years ago. All they really have to do is go and listen. They will see. There should no longer be any doubt. All the same, thanks for patiently explaining.

@charlesgrubbs2101

3 жыл бұрын

I do the same thing. My favorite was when I tried a new set of interconnects. My wife came in from another room to ask "What's wrong with the stereo?" Those cables went back.

@charlesmiller6281

3 жыл бұрын

@@charlesgrubbs2101 I use the same indicator. Except my review reading must be better, because mine more often than not hears the improvement without even coming into the room.

Audio is a hardware journey where the destination is the same, but people spend so much time arguing about the journey. What does it matter if people are spending too much as long as they enjoyed their journey - same destination

@Ustaleone

3 жыл бұрын

True, what other people do is their own business. Just enjoy the music. Some people are so worried about how their gear is set up that they don't listen/enjoy the music. Don't listen to your gear folks, listen to and enjoy the music!

@quadrannilator

3 жыл бұрын

I think the issue comes about when the people who hear the difference try to put down those who can't, or can't afford to buy better gear, which is where the measurement people try to intervene, try to be saviours and say its ok to have cheap cables because more expensive ones aren't better in any terms (at least as long as they measure about the same or within a certain threshold). I think many modern reviewers try to act as peaceful moderators, and tell the people who can't afford expensive cables, that its not that big of an issue.

Great clip! It's a debate between audiophiles that can not settle. I believe, cable need to match the system that I have.

Thank you for outlining the Scientific Method!!! It's definitely not used enough. While measurements are important, if I can't hear an obvious improvement in the sound it doesn't matter.

this was a real good explonation. i was always open mindet. but most people arent. i sad always to myself power cables doesnt matter at all...i tryied a view of them and dont heard any difference...until i got a nordost heimdall 2...awesome but the frey 2 was much better overall, especialy in the bass. but i realy had to try it and make my own experience. but i bet i will pass the blind test, cause its just to much that you dont hear it.

@antonyharding5360

3 жыл бұрын

People,, stear clear of short cables. , they send the dynamics all weard.. They don't to let the cable do its job properly...

This was superbly explained and well argued. Well done Thomas!

The pic of the network shows a resistor and a poly styrene cap. The wires look intact yet slit open so we have an RC network connected in parallel to the normal conductors. This is called 'terminating' the cable and is more typically done in the electronics, for example the 75 ohm resistor terminating a SPDIF cable just beyond the jack on a DAC. Speaker cables are not radio frequency transmission lines like video coax or ethernet twisted pairs so here a guess would be the RC network rolls off above audio frequencies noise which potentially makes the amplifier's feedback network more stable.

@ThomasAndStereo

3 жыл бұрын

Oh, thanks for explaining, I have no idea.

Another great video Thomas, thanks

@ThomasAndStereo

2 жыл бұрын

Very welcome

Oh this is going to be good!

@ThomasAndStereo

3 жыл бұрын

Let me know what you think once you are done!

@scottyo64

3 жыл бұрын

@@ThomasAndStereo Love it! I much like you try to remain open minded. On my own systems I do not hear much difference in cables but on others systems I have noticed. In one of your tests I heard one that was bright and one that was warm. For me the bright was too much but the warm was almost muddied by warmth. I would want something in between. I have seen a few cable videos with measurements like Gene's which were pretty good. All being sIaid if someone likes their cables great! Everyone should do what pleases them and no one should put someone down for it. I have a fairly budget system compared to many so I may not get the benefits of high end cables where others would.

@Audiofreak71

3 жыл бұрын

@@scottyo64 The only way you’ll find out is to try some different cables.

@scottyo64

3 жыл бұрын

@@Audiofreak71 I have 6 sets from Kimber, Audioquest etc. Etc. Change out with my 10 gauge ofc and it sounds the same on my system. The set I currently use I like the looks so they became keepers.

@Audiofreak71

3 жыл бұрын

@@scottyo64 Have you ever tried OCC7N copper on your system?

My Nordost don't need a box to "sound" marvelous.

Thomas is the best! Thank you for this great video :-)

Are there any links to audio comparisons?

OMG, there's a turntable on the shelf.....🤣

@jamesdwright

3 жыл бұрын

lol

@khoi83

3 жыл бұрын

Thomas will probably have grey hair very soon, too... haha

Amir from ASR does not approve this video. But I do, everything so well said, Thomas The Story Teller Stereo!

@hawaiiguy1

3 жыл бұрын

they are a joke...measurements are the only thing that matters !

@hudo

3 жыл бұрын

@@Dobbs65 he knows very much about electrics but doesn't know much about how to listen

@dakken74

3 жыл бұрын

@@hudo there is no "special" way of listening. Either something makes a difference or it doesn't, and measurements and test prove that there is NO scientific or logical reason why 2 different cables that measure identical would sound different other than strong cognitive bias.

@hudo

3 жыл бұрын

@@dakken74 so that's it, it has to be bias, it can't sound different because way its measured its absolutely perfect? Even if bunch of people hear the difference? Did you even watch this video, or ever tested any cable on half decent stereo system?

@dakken74

3 жыл бұрын

@@hudo yes I watched the whole video and found no compelling argument for why cables should sound different other than a "belief" that they would or a trying to dismiss the findings of actual electrical engineers by saying that measurements are not science.

Wonderfully logical and beautifully explained, thank you! : ) Observation... excellent.

Cables are interesting & sometimes surprising. I tried some cheap 14 ga speaker cables, only 1 m long in my spare room system and that was pretty harsh. These are the exact same cable I used on a 7.5 m run on the church PA and the sound was astonishingly very good and crystal clear. I know PA is trash right, but I had worked hard on it over many years to eke out as much performance as I could on a strict budget, and an audiophile visitor exclaimed, "wow a church the is actually doing true sound reinforcement". That from hardware speaker cables! Surprised me too. Anyway, shorter is supposed to be less impedance so better? well, wrong in this case anyway. The spare room system sounds better with 3m of 12 ag cables which the tables say is higher impedance than 1m of 14ga. Also, tested some high capacitance instrument cable made up as a 55cm RCA interconnect, against a 60 cm long lower capacitance and slightly thicker HiFi RCA interconnects, The instrument cable revealed noticeably more high vocal detailed & nuance. But Um, isn't capacitance supposed to be bad? I even measures both cables with my DMM. Resistance 0.0 ohm for both, capacitance 47 pF & 121 pF. Why did the higher capacitance have nicer, more expressive and nuanced high female vocal? That's all I can measure, not lab accurate I know but comparison should be relatively indicative. There just seems to be things that go against expectations sometimes. I have no explanation, it just is what it is.

Hey Thomas, fantastic video. That was a very well thought out explanation that makes a lot of sense. Some folks think the observation portion of the scientific method is the 'subjective' portion (not I). I'm a fan of the (true) scientific method. Thanks again

My experience with cables and interconnect is that they should be of solid quality,but imho its a waste of money to go beyond the low two digits pricerange per meter. And yes,there is a lot of make believe and scamming going on in that niche of the market.

I like the way you think about things, we are somewhat similar in that aspect

One track of the blind test should be three trials of listening the same cable, I bet the results will be interesting.

@oscardziki4543

Жыл бұрын

But you should tell people that ie. second demo is a fancy 6000$ cable :)

Did the blind test and couldn't hear much difference, I preferred A. Which means it's not worth for me to spend money on cables.

Thomas, simply thank you. This is awesome & insightful. Love your passion that pores out in each video. I live in Sri Lanka & the only proper brands we have access to is Yamaha & Qacoustics. So I got myself a Yamaha RX-V6A & Q3030i & boy I am in love. Since I got the duo in Feb 2021, I always wondered if better cables would sparkle the music more. Finally I am content. Thank you!

@ThomasAndStereo

3 жыл бұрын

I think you might be able to get a bit more sparkle with different speaker cables. I remember the Q3000 series tweeter is not very sharp. However, I would advise you to spend the money elsewhere. For example, wait for my topping Pre90 preamp review.

Thanks for your explanation on cables , and your explanation on the double blind test , I heard a nicely set up sonus faber sonnata speaker

A rational and coherent presentation on an otherwise colored divergent topic, nicely done. What speakers are those in the background?

@ThomasAndStereo

3 жыл бұрын

Silverline Sonata

I'm late to the party here but that photo is blowing my mind. What a lot of people are missing is that there is also a capacitor in there, a little polystyrene item (the silver foil in a clear body at the top) It's likely wired in parallel (or maybe in series?) with that Vishay resistor to make an RC filter. You can see where they were soldered together with the blob on the resistor lead. What does that do? It's a noise filter to get rid of high frequency interference. One you can make for like 50 cents. Maybe 5$ if you use the same parts you see in the photo. If you search for RC filters on speaker cables you'll see it's not a new idea.

@dingdong2103

Жыл бұрын

It's for people who fail to understand that audio works orders of magnitude smaller frequencies than radio frequencies. And some possible trace elements of radio frequencies are totally negated by the crude crossover network / dynamic drivers. It's like claiming a jumping mouse is causing a pyramid to shake.

time to get some popcorn and read the comments haha

Thomas, good one. Some long time audio experts say blind testing is not a viable method of evaluation. That confuses me. I am happy you as a proponent of blind testing. I have to assume that the concept scares most manufacturers.

Awesome video👏 even though I coundn’t hear the sound difference from your test video clip. I do understand there might be sound changes from the analog cables. However, there are people who say there is sound difference from the digital cables. What is your opinion about the digital cables?

@ThomasAndStereo

3 жыл бұрын

From my experience, I do hear difference with USB cables. 😎 Did I just lose half my subscribers?

@thomas1254

3 жыл бұрын

@@ThomasAndStereo Thank you for the reply Thomas. I just wanted to know your honest opinion. I studied computer science, and cannot understand sound changing from the digital cables. However I do respect your experience and opinion. No one knows everything. Keep up the good work! 🥂.

@ThomasAndStereo

3 жыл бұрын

Well it is just one person experience and it does not make it true. Could be placebo effect!

This is the best explanation but you won't change those people.

@Old_Sailor85

3 жыл бұрын

Which ones?

@dakken74

3 жыл бұрын

All he did was give an opinion, there is no science or test to back it up.