Breaking down Lily Orchard's favorite "Mary Sues" (Ft

Фильм және анимация

Today we're breaking down some of the characters Lily Orchard thinks are Mary Sues, and her terrible understanding of the trope.
With Guest appearance from ‪@KaiserShounen‬Kaiser Shounen
/ @kaisershounen
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• Lily Orchard DOESN'T U...
Educate yourself on the trope with two other videos of mine:
• What is a Mary Sue?
• What is a Mary Sue? - ...
Or from any of these other great creators:
• Mary Sue videos that L...
Check out that one time when Kaiser got told:
• I told you so

Пікірлер: 335

  • @periodicpete
    @periodicpete14 күн бұрын

    Damn, this vid doin numbers

  • @themechanic9974

    @themechanic9974

    13 күн бұрын

    Ngl Lilly dose that to everything except her own videos lol😂

  • @feralwarden4873

    @feralwarden4873

    13 күн бұрын

    Can you please make that Strong Female Character Mo Tage a separate video.

  • @periodicpete

    @periodicpete

    13 күн бұрын

    @@feralwarden4873 Done! kzread.infocsJhPwnggyQ

  • @SirPsychonautic

    @SirPsychonautic

    13 күн бұрын

    On everybody.... On everybody.... like, mentally.....

  • @feralwarden4873

    @feralwarden4873

    13 күн бұрын

    @@periodicpete Thank You! I'm gonna go put it on. Repeat until I hate it now.

  • @prodigylps6204
    @prodigylps620411 күн бұрын

    Darth vader the guy who lost every thing he ever cared about became a slave to his abuser and then died is a “Mary Sue”

  • @anotherrandomguy8871

    @anotherrandomguy8871

    11 күн бұрын

    Come to think of it, if Darth Vader truly was a Mary Sue, then Darth Vader wouldn’t exist, not even as a character. If everything went perfectly for Anakin, if he never had real flaws, moral conflit, and never lost fights like how Rey does, if his life wasn’t always bad, I don’t think he COULD become Darth Vader, because Vader is the result of all those existing conflicts for Ankain that became his downfall. That’s Ankain wouldn’t even be in a cyborgs suit if he was a mary sue.

  • @errwhattheflip

    @errwhattheflip

    20 сағат бұрын

    yeah I can't see how someone could ever delude themselves into thinking Vader is a mary sue. He's one of the most flawed characters ever conceived

  • @thealientree3821

    @thealientree3821

    2 сағат бұрын

    Born a slave, gets kidnapped by a cult of monks to become a slave again, has intense anger issues, same monks go against his ideals of love and passion and essentially gets betrayed in his eyes, joins the Dark Side, commits William Afton, gets all his limbs cut off, be in constant torment and pain, sacrifices himself. Apparently "Mary Sue" enough.

  • @sambrickman6858
    @sambrickman685814 күн бұрын

    Fundamentally, the issue with a Mary Sue is not the character themselves, it's that the story does not contain or challenge them. Superman becomes a Mary Sue if he's put in the Walking Dead universe and spends his time mowing down zombies from above without any moral dilemmas or people to challenge him. Rick Grimes becomes a Mary Sue if he's dropped next to Joy Newsome from Room and just shoots her captor in the forehead. The issue I find with the term is just that it seems to imply that the problem is a quality innate to the character, when it isn't.

  • @pikminman13

    @pikminman13

    14 күн бұрын

    Like anything else you can absolutely do it right too. Look at say, Loid Forger from Spy X Family. Good at almost everything, liked by everyone that isn’t his enemy. What makes it work is that 1. He is established as this from the start with a known history as the best spy in the world and 2. He still has to figure out how to act as a parent, which is a main point of the show. You aren’t questioning whether or not he will succeed, but how he will do it and what will go wrong.

  • @Thebigem

    @Thebigem

    14 күн бұрын

    You mentioned 2 Garry Stews, Not Mary Sues

  • @pikminman13

    @pikminman13

    14 күн бұрын

    @@Thebigem its the same concept. the only reason it started as female is because of the character where the term originates, and the general bias to where you would find characters like this in its early eras of fanfiction written by self insert female authors. the archetype applies to both, and these days its the same.

  • @Noscopenoproblem

    @Noscopenoproblem

    14 күн бұрын

    @@Thebigem There is no fundamental difference between "Mary Sue" and "Gary Stu/Stew", the terms are interchangeable and Gary Stu exists only as shorthand for "Male Mary Sue".

  • @Ironcorgi2
    @Ironcorgi214 күн бұрын

    To say captain America is a Mary sue misses the character entirely. In the mcu he kind of is a tragic hero who always takes the sacrifice even to his own detriment. That’s his flaw.

  • @KaiserShounen

    @KaiserShounen

    14 күн бұрын

    Not to meantion, he takes so many losses and so many risks

  • @KissatenYoba

    @KissatenYoba

    14 күн бұрын

    "always takes the sacrifice even to his own detriment" - that's a mary sue trait lmao. It's in the same category of flaws as "likes his friends too much"

  • @KaiserShounen

    @KaiserShounen

    14 күн бұрын

    @@KissatenYoba A mary sue isn't JUST a character who has flaws though. There is other criteria needed for a character to fit the bill. A character who doesn't have flaws isn't necessarily a bad character or a Sue

  • @KissatenYoba

    @KissatenYoba

    14 күн бұрын

    @@KaiserShounen flaws not actually being flaws is mary sue.

  • @KaiserShounen

    @KaiserShounen

    14 күн бұрын

    @@KissatenYoba It is a common trait of a mary sue but that is not the sole trait of one. Captain America may barely have flaws but he still has challenges that he overcomes in engaging ways, he's not seriously OP, and the plot doesn't completely revolve around him. There are some times when the MCU gives him conveniences, but it is not consistent enough for him to be a sue

  • @d.j.mulcahy1657
    @d.j.mulcahy165715 күн бұрын

    Another thing I’d add is who the Mary Sue is meant to appeal to. In most works of escapism, an overpowered protagonist is usually designed for the enjoyment of the audience. Meanwhile, with Lily’s brand of Mary Sues, especially in her own writing, you can tell she’s the only one having fun. It’s a vehicle for her to give herself power, charisma, and romances she’d never have in real life and to put herself at the center of entire universes where she’s the most important person ever born. That’s what I think separates characters who are simply overpowered from full-blown Mary Sues.

  • @ma.2089

    @ma.2089

    14 күн бұрын

    OP characters can be Mary sues, but not all OP characters are Mary sues/gary stus. In fact, a lot of them aren’t, and their Gary Mary-ness comes from the world warping itself for the benefit of said character.

  • @SobiTheRobot

    @SobiTheRobot

    14 күн бұрын

    In works containing a Mary Sue, literally *everything* in the plot revolved around the Sue or making her look good. Every character has an opinion on Sue: the likeable characters adore her (including villains) and the hateable characters hate her (including supposed heroes that the author dislikes). Mary Sue always knows what to do or finds a convenient solution or just happens to be the right person for every job.

  • @fluffywolfo3663

    @fluffywolfo3663

    14 күн бұрын

    Essentially, a good overpowered protag is someone that makes you feel like you’re along for the ride, while lily’s are kinda masturbatory.

  • @theagentsquidfiles504
    @theagentsquidfiles50414 күн бұрын

    I think you're missing an element of Elle Woods' "like it's hard?" Line that helps bolster your point. She's not just showing off to impress the guy, and it's not just that it genuinely did take a while lot of work on her part, but also a huge part of the conflict Elle runs into is everybody thinks she's stupid because of her personality, style and interests. She falls very nearly into the "popular pretty girl" stereotype because she put a huge amount of time and effort into style and social engagements, and because that's considered vapid and shallow, people don't take her seriously and assume she's dumb. But part of Elle's point by remaining confident in her abilities and demeanor isn't just because she's not afraid to be herself, but to show people "of course I got into Harvard, just like you did, because I am smart, just like you are". Her confidence in that moment carries within it one of the major hurdles that she has to overcome while at Harvard, and Lily uses it as an example of someone without struggles. Also: how dare you call this a B-movie, you will be hearing from my lawyers. The Cease-and-Desist will be scented.

  • @Ironcorgi2

    @Ironcorgi2

    14 күн бұрын

    Ya legally blonde is a well crafted movie that is feminist but not in a man hating aspect but in the vein of just because things are considered feminine does not mean they stupid. Elle woods isn’t a Mary sue because she isn’t presented as perfect but her brilliance comes in she puts the effort she puts into understanding fashion, social situations and other things into law studies. It’s such a great law movie.

  • @alekslic3385
    @alekslic338514 күн бұрын

    Say it with me now: " Those that preach the loudest have the most to hide."

  • @DCPTF2
    @DCPTF214 күн бұрын

    Never forget Lilly is the person who wrote a story where the main self insert OC goes around a multiverse Committing genocide and beating the crap out of God, because she is in the right and thinks that Atheism is the one true way

  • @Kuroyami0Fukaikuro

    @Kuroyami0Fukaikuro

    14 күн бұрын

    Dont forget the Star Wars fic where the MC's mom is an intergalactic slaver and they romanticize that fact

  • @CapriciousWriter

    @CapriciousWriter

    14 күн бұрын

    FUCKING WHAT?!!!

  • @DCPTF2

    @DCPTF2

    14 күн бұрын

    @@CapriciousWriter going to take a lot to track it down these days but it was called something like Tales of the Valkyr or something like that

  • @Casual-Yohoho-Enjoyer

    @Casual-Yohoho-Enjoyer

    14 күн бұрын

    Bro thinks she Thor fr

  • @KaiserShounen

    @KaiserShounen

    14 күн бұрын

    Which is fine to do since its fanfiction and not major works. The issue Lily doesn't understand (or refuses to acknowledge) is that people don't pay tens to hundreds of dollars in theatres to go see someones poorly written self indulgent fanfiction. They want a professional movie made by people who know what they are doing

  • @Silvercubestudios
    @Silvercubestudios11 күн бұрын

    Lily is the type of person that (unironically) would turn evil the second they get powers.

  • @Nameless-ln5mr
    @Nameless-ln5mr14 күн бұрын

    With the way Lily seems to go after action heroes, I’d probably blame it on the fact that she seems to hate high-stakes action stories, and believes that low-stakes coffee shop comedies are always superior. Never mind the fact that the thing that makes a good story is quality and not genre…

  • @Isaac-ze4fl
    @Isaac-ze4fl14 күн бұрын

    Can i just add that regardless of sueness or anything else, Lily Orchard demonstrated a complete lack of comphrension of people because using force lightning, an explicitly evil power to kill one of your friends is a valid thing to angst about

  • @SearedBooks

    @SearedBooks

    14 күн бұрын

    Yeah, but you have more power, and the more power you have the more good you feel because now you can abuse people better without them being able to stop you. That's great, and exactly what I think of when I think about heroes.

  • @cobycoba
    @cobycoba14 күн бұрын

    I think the issue is these people miss that sometimes the competence IS the premise. Light is not a mary sue despite all his luck and victories simply because the entire premise of the show is "what happens when the smartest person in the room gets the ability to play god". The competence is not only expected but almost mandatory here.

  • @KaiserShounen

    @KaiserShounen

    14 күн бұрын

    Exactly. And that is absolutely fine. As long as there are still stakes in the story. But Lily just says "Fuck the stakes, they don't matter". Cringe.

  • @arosbastion7052

    @arosbastion7052

    14 күн бұрын

    it also all comes crashing down on him by the end lmao

  • @KaiserShounen
    @KaiserShounen15 күн бұрын

    Excellent video as always, Pete. Glad to be on to soak up the clout you took from me >:) But for real tho, Lily is a prime example of who not to be as a critic. If you're correct on a topic, you shouldn't have to blatantly lie or throw away helpful words/definitions because you feel petty and spiteful. That is childish behavior and she needs to get over herself. If she is ever going to make good content instead of having waves of people who dislike her, she needs to cut the bullshit and tell the truth. Mary Sue's suck. Its bad writing. Bad writing bears no genders, has no race and possesses no sexuality. And she knows this, which is why she had to lie about it. Big shame.

  • @d.j.mulcahy1657

    @d.j.mulcahy1657

    15 күн бұрын

    There’s a reason you don’t hear Aliana Beniko (Lily’s OC) talked about when it comes to compelling characters.

  • @periodicpete

    @periodicpete

    15 күн бұрын

    @@d.j.mulcahy1657 Probably the same reason I don't hear her OC talked about at all lol

  • @d.j.mulcahy1657

    @d.j.mulcahy1657

    13 күн бұрын

    @@periodicpete She even does that thing in Isekai where the characters contribute to slavery (though perhaps I’ve said too much).

  • @FlamingoSugar
    @FlamingoSugar14 күн бұрын

    Honestly, so many of Lily's videos are just because people in fandom are 'mean' to her. Her most recent video is about writing of sibling relationships because people were criticizing her stories about siblings, saying that they have unhealthy relationships that are emotionally incestuous. It's why she brings up her own works in her videos so often. The video is not coming for a genuine place, it's coming from a place of 'people critiqued my works and I'm going to write a whole video essay to show them not only that I'm right, but that they're part of a systematic problem!'. It's not helped by her holier-than-thou attitude and complete dismissal of anyone bringing up legitimate critiques. Many of her problems are problems she has with fandom, not the works themselves, and boy does it show in her essays.

  • @SearedBooks

    @SearedBooks

    14 күн бұрын

    That's something I've heard before, that all of the examples used are from her own writing, because she thinks her work is the perfect example for everything. I won't act like I don't like bringing my own writing up, I'm doing it right now, but I also try to make comparisons to things that people actually know. I don't know what her sibling video is really about, but as someone with 11 of them, it's something I play with in my writing. And I try to be critical of my own work, maybe even to my detriment, and I pay attention to every comment, even if they don't sound like they come from a stable mind. When someone has a bad reaction, even if they can't explain why, you can look back at your work and try to understand what was wrong. Sometimes, nothing is wrong at all, they just didn't like it, but sometimes there is a flaw you missed.

  • @nevaehhamilton3493

    @nevaehhamilton3493

    14 күн бұрын

    Plus, she does a LOT of projecting in these videos. She blames everything on everyone else except her, when no one except her has done anything wrong. Not to mention, her twisted views of the world and inherent narcissism make it hard for her to see the actual bigger picture.

  • @comfyghost
    @comfyghost14 күн бұрын

    the term "fandom racists" has some serious tomy talarico "gaming racists" vibes. it's so stupid it almost distracted me from her following statement about how theorising about rae's parents was somehow "missing the point" even though rae's parents (at least until the palpatine bullshit) was meant to be a subversion, and a subversion doesn't work if we aren't interested in who her parents are, meaning that theorising about them is the point. forget not knowing what a mary sue is, i don't think she knows what story telling is (like actually, this isn't even just a joke i'm making, i'm genuinely starting to suspect this after everything i've ever seen her say)

  • @12Gage541

    @12Gage541

    11 күн бұрын

    Unlike Tommy, I don't like Lilly's Mother is very proud of her.

  • @vidmanandrew09

    @vidmanandrew09

    6 күн бұрын

    Yeah… Lily lacks in higher critical thinking and habitually tries to put things into “black or white.” It’s why she hates Steven Universe and repeatedly called Rebecca Sugar a Nazi (not kidding), why she hates Redemption Arcs, and is unable to take _Hazben Hotel_ at face value. (She legitimately things Charlie Morningstar, the _daughter of Lucifer Morningstar,_ is the “self proclaimed” Princess of Hell.)

  • @leviticusprime4904

    @leviticusprime4904

    4 күн бұрын

    @@vidmanandrew09I don't even like at show and even I think, that's disingenuous.

  • @underconstruction6436
    @underconstruction643610 күн бұрын

    31:14 "She just is a child" that's an insult to children. Literal kids could come up with better stories after playing with action figures for a few minutes than Lily ever has and ever could (other than that great video).

  • @KaiserShounen

    @KaiserShounen

    10 күн бұрын

    Appreciate it

  • @periodicpete

    @periodicpete

    10 күн бұрын

    Seconded!

  • @jackoconnor5590
    @jackoconnor559014 күн бұрын

    Lily Orchard? What a lunatic.

  • @marzreineke1367
    @marzreineke136714 күн бұрын

    The good that came out of Lilys is I've found so many good smaller youtube channels that shit on her crapy takes, lmaoo

  • @ma.2089

    @ma.2089

    14 күн бұрын

    Also, if she (should I even refer to them with their preferred pronouns when they’re also transphobic? Seems a bit unfair) doesn’t like something, it’s a good mark that whatever they dislike is actually good.

  • @elizahamilton5599

    @elizahamilton5599

    14 күн бұрын

    @@ma.2089I just call Lily an IT

  • @marzreineke1367

    @marzreineke1367

    14 күн бұрын

    Lily victimizes herself. So, if you misgender her, you just reinforce her victim complex. I just don't even bother with it. It's not worth it

  • @CertifiedCoolDude

    @CertifiedCoolDude

    13 күн бұрын

    @@ma.2089I would say to refer to Lily correctly considering you wouldn’t misgender a cis person if you didn’t like them, like I hate Lily but misgendering anyone harms the trans community as a whole imo

  • @khaliyahjefferson832

    @khaliyahjefferson832

    11 күн бұрын

    @@CertifiedCoolDude I lowkey thought she was trans from the moment I heard her voice

  • @localloser7415
    @localloser741514 күн бұрын

    Calling Commander Shepard someone who fights for every single victory and wins just barely wins every time a mary sue its so idiotic

  • @SirPsychonautic
    @SirPsychonautic15 күн бұрын

    I will say that villans can be given immense ammounts of plot armor that does detract from the experience. Not nessesaraly a Mary Sue, but plot progression so baffling that you start to wonder if the writers are just trying to pad out the run time. Cant think of any examples off the top of my head, but the kind of encounter where either the vilan breaks the laws of the story and/or their character, or the protagonist makes a braindead decision and the villan ends up getting away because of it.

  • @michaeldorsey9231

    @michaeldorsey9231

    15 күн бұрын

    “or the protagonist makes a braindead decision and the villan ends up getting away because of it.” Blake and the Faunus militia letting Adam escape at the end of RWBY vol 5 comes to mind.

  • @SirPsychonautic

    @SirPsychonautic

    15 күн бұрын

    @@michaeldorsey9231 THIS! Holysh*t that was annoying!

  • @krraika1847

    @krraika1847

    15 күн бұрын

    I can definitely agree. You can see this with Kylo Ren in the sequel trilogy, who says about "feeling the pull to the light" in TFA despite himself ordering innocent people to be killed, killing his own father, and goes on to kidnap and interrogate Rey. Not helped where Rey (for some reason) listens to Kylo Ren in TLJ, including the dumb and hypocritical "let the past die, kill it if you have to."

  • @KaiserShounen

    @KaiserShounen

    15 күн бұрын

    I do agree that this is possible. Madara Uchiha (Naruto), Aizen (Bleach), All For One (My hero academia) are examples that come to mind of villains that are pumped full of so much Plot Armor that it harms the stakes of the story. Because some conveniences have to happen in order to beat them instead of the characters finding a way to stop them themselves or seeking some other means actively.

  • @watchface6836

    @watchface6836

    15 күн бұрын

    I think an example of a villian with too much plot armor would be Colonel Autum from Fallout 3.

  • @firemaster9293
    @firemaster929310 күн бұрын

    Lily doesn't care what you think or what point you're trying to make. I know this because, after her infamous first Dungeon Meshi video where she made her distasteful take on Laios by offending any autistic people who lack social cues, instead of taking responsibility for it, in her second Dungeon Meshi video, she made more ways to bash Laios with more misinformation about his character and use Bojack Horseman of all shows in comparison that has nothing to do with the premise of Dungeon Meshi and didn’t even apologize to those who have symptoms for the autism spectrum by saying she hasn’t met anyone someone like Laios. (Sai has the first video in her Reacting to Lily Orchard's Dungeon Meshi Videos live streaming if you're curious.) To me, I think Lily is a lost cause because nothing will faze her, she will never change her ways even if we keep calling her out, and she will find more ways to blame people to excuse herself.

  • @twistedmyth5860

    @twistedmyth5860

    2 күн бұрын

    I, personally have trouble believing that she knows autistic people that aren't either women, or children. And women tend to have the more off putting autism traits more discouraged than men do. And Children aren't adults so their autism wouldn't look like Laios's autism. Combined with her "Never Wrong Attitude" and I think she would assume any autistic person she met that WAS like Laios was just a maladjusted shut in or a creep. Doesn't matter how they actually act/say. She praises Fallon when Fallon is just Laios with magical aptitude and female autism. They are so similar and show how autism affects men and women differently. Also, Lily just has a bias against any male character that isn't an asshole played for comedy. Which Laios isn't an asshole, so she hates him.

  • @ma.2089

    @ma.2089

    Күн бұрын

    @@twistedmyth5860 I refuse to watch her video mostly cuz I heard (like most dunmeshi fans) spoils the story and ending. In a way they’re saying “I don’t like the series, so now YOU cant be allowed to enjoy it blind either!”. But I find it horrible Falin is the “good” autism. The girl has just a bit more social awareness, simply cuz girls like her are forced from a younger age to conform cus of their gender. Falin is only “good” cuz she’s not allowed to do much. Ppl overlook her suffering and difficulties so much. Heck, The girl who was made to suffer so deeply, so of COURSE it would probably be “good” cuz just like Lily things Laios should be treated badly for their autism, Falin is already experiencing “recompense”.

  • @twistedmyth5860

    @twistedmyth5860

    23 сағат бұрын

    @@ma.2089 I know, it was such shit of Lily to spoil shit. Just because she is fine with spoilers (I am too) doesn't mean that she should spoil others. (Seriously I avoid telling people who want to watch a thing spoilers for a reason.) Also, YEAH. I hate when people take away that Fallin has the "Good Autism" when she just has "Raised woman while Autistic". Lily truly has some incredibly shit takes and her praising Sheldon Cooper, while demonizing Laios is fucking disgusting imo.

  • @Osc473
    @Osc47314 күн бұрын

    13:39 also this scene is also a joke that the actor of Indiana Jones had food poisoning and wanted to end the scene quickly as possible

  • @twistedmyth5860

    @twistedmyth5860

    2 күн бұрын

    Yeah, It's a scene that isn't plot important and is obviously played for comedy.

  • @Mr.EintheMorning
    @Mr.EintheMorning13 күн бұрын

    24:59 Nice use of Glados dialogue. Orchard really seems to have no concept of empathy whatsoever.

  • @krraika1847
    @krraika184715 күн бұрын

    Yeah, like I've said before in some of Kaiser's videos, Orchard's argument all boils down to "you don't like my character because they're X" when the problems are that "these characters don't work because of Y." It is a double standard which has been used by people all over the political spectrum. Maybe less to do with politics and more to do with "how dare you criticize this character I like." Also, something that both Mary Sue/Gary Stu defenders (e.g. Orchard, Cosmonaut Variety Hour) and many critics (e.g. The Critical Drinker) tend to forget is that Mary Sues are merely one type of bad character writing/storytelling. And like I've mentioned before (and which you partially showed when going over Taken), you can still have a non-Mary Sue character be as bad and favored by the plot as a Mary Sue. This has happened with Bayformer's Optimus Prime (easily killing Megatron--who was offering peace in DotM--after losing an arm, threatening and forcing Grimlock and the Dinobots to join him in AoE, willing to mercilessly kill humans post-DotM), Snyder's Superman (destroying most of Metropolis, killing Zod, the Christ-like imagery in MoS and BvS, people praising him to have saved people in BvS when he looks like its a chore, having people mourn him after his asinine death against Doomsday), and yes, the SW prequels' Anakin Skywalker (able to destroy the Trade Federation ship BY ACCIDENT without shown to have used the Force in TPM, killing women and children TWICE after not doing next-to-nothing about his visions and with no context given in AotC and RotS, being excused of killing women and children in AotC where he didn't even feel the effects of the Dark Side, arguing with and being abrasive/disobedient to Obi-Wan in AotC with no resolution or anything showing how he grew into the hero he was in RotS, having Padme say she loves Anakin AFTER he killed women and children in AotC despite nothing showing what she sees in him--and Padme in RotS even saying "Anakin wouldn't do that!" about killing children even though she knows he had done such in the past, etc.). All of these, especially Anakin (who was said in the OT to have been a good man who was seduced by the Dark Side but the prequels don't reflect that), share the same core problems as Mary Sues/Gary Stus: they do not drive the plot, they do not deal with consequences of their actions, said actions are excused by the plot, they act stupid for the sake of the plot, and much, MUCH more. It's not helped that I have literally seen people excuse all of this (even Anakin killing women and children by adding in "context" they pull out of the ether, as well as those same people saying Anakin faced more hardship than Luke--all of which I've seen being applied to Rey and even Kylo Ren). And that's not going into those same people attacking and belittling others' legitimate criticisms (emphasis on the legitimate part). Anyway, sorry for the long paragraphs, but TL;DR: this stuff is nothing new and the same nonsense Orchard used to defend Rey and Carol Danvers have been used for other poorly-told characters.

  • @KaiserShounen

    @KaiserShounen

    15 күн бұрын

    Couldn't agree more

  • @genyakozlov1316

    @genyakozlov1316

    14 күн бұрын

    Until the sequel trilogy I found Anakin to be the only reason to even care about Star Wars, and even after it he remains the best part of it. The original trilogy has literally nothing good going for it. If you're going to analyse bad writing, analyse how Luke has no agency in New Hope, just being carried around by the plot, or how his temptation into the dark side of the Force makes no sense with his motivations and history. He is simply not a compelling character in the way Anakin and Ray are. Star Wars also never had tight writing, which doesn't make it worse as what matters is not the writing itself but how interesting it is and how it speaks to human nature. Everything else is just nerds whining about stuff which never mattered, because things like immersion is something subjective to each member of the audience, and is their concern, not the author's. There is a reason Romans looked down on fiction and only put science to paper. If it's gonna be escapism it should say something about the human condition, otherwise it's just a literal waste of time no matter how well written it is. That being said, it's technically impossible to create art which says nothing, as the interpretation of the message is always up to the audience, no matter what the author intended, you could even say that we create art when we observe the raw material in the form of the original text, and authors always put their worldview into their work subconsciously, so all art is in some way deep, even if that wasn't intended, and in some way political. What am I trying to say with all this? Nothing.

  • @onesmart229
    @onesmart22914 күн бұрын

    41:26 Lily is evil and that still doesn’t mean Mary Sue isn’t mostly used as a buzzword in a culture war. Two of the very characters you mentioned don’t fit that definition but they were labeled as because of nonsense outside of their stories.

  • @jadehakurei
    @jadehakurei14 күн бұрын

    Holy fuck! This video is actually good! Genuinely though this video came from a higher sub-count channel. May the algorithm look kindly upon you!

  • @KaiserShounen

    @KaiserShounen

    14 күн бұрын

    Thanks a lot, dude. Make sure to share around!

  • @MrSmuuf
    @MrSmuuf9 күн бұрын

    Lily? Bitter and projecting? Surely you jest!

  • @willberto6969
    @willberto696910 күн бұрын

    In regards to the drama, she's openly had a kink for the stuff she's being accused of, going as far as making her own self ship comic about it, so I think its safe to say its all true

  • @lorenzowhois
    @lorenzowhois13 күн бұрын

    33:20 POWER RANGERS TIME FORCE/MIRAI SENTAI TIMERANGER SPOTTED

  • @imgkaizer
    @imgkaizer13 күн бұрын

    "Hello every hero's journey character ever" did she just insinuate that simon from gurren lagann is a mary sue? This isn't say that they're saying he specifically is, that's just to prove the point that her argument is inherently flawed and is saying those things just to make people she disagrees with sound hypocritical. But if she thinks for over a second that my boy simon is anything but one of the best anime characters of all time she's gonna have some explaining to do

  • @PedroBenolielBonito
    @PedroBenolielBonito14 күн бұрын

    To be honest, Lara Croft IS kind of a Mary Sue, at least in the original games. She's an aspirational figure - wealthy, educated, athletic, confident, sarcastic, with an impossibly great figure and a cut-glass accent - capable of taking down a T-Rex, whose only weakness is falling from high places or into spikes. A Mary Sue I never see discussed, though, is Sam LaRusso from Cobra Kai. The show frames her as this manic pixie dream girl-next-door, carefully framing every scene she's in so she is shown to be righteous and sensible, when most of the time, she is the instigator, and her main quality is her ability to manipulate men into doing what she wants by shedding crocodile tears and acting the victim. Samantha's only failure in what are now five seasons is losing the Girls' bracket of the All-Valley Karate Championships (and Robby before that, even though she immediately rebounds by getting back together with Miguel) to Tori. Other than that, she is framed as being perfect in every way, even though it is glaringly obvious that she is anything but.

  • @Noscopenoproblem

    @Noscopenoproblem

    14 күн бұрын

    Character traits don't factor much into Sueness if the setting or universe doesn't bend over or excessively focus on the character in relation to those traits. While Lara is athletic, that athleticism is required for regular gameplay and the player being good enough to match the athletic challenges if anything prevents her from being a Mary Sue. Her wealth and education exist only to facilitate her adventures, not to magically decide how the plot goes without resistance. Her physical attractiveness is more of an audience thing than it is an element the plotlines overbearingly build themselves around. She's not kind of a Mary Sue, she's simply not one at all.

  • @siobhannoble8545

    @siobhannoble8545

    13 күн бұрын

    All those same points could be applied to Batman.

  • @Brianprince1000
    @Brianprince100015 күн бұрын

    Great video as always pete

  • @LatterDayPup
    @LatterDayPup13 күн бұрын

    Lily is just seething that people don’t like her favorite characters.

  • @jonelrobinson582

    @jonelrobinson582

    11 күн бұрын

    Exactly! No one likes Mary Sues!

  • @javonyounger5107
    @javonyounger510713 күн бұрын

    To me the issue with Mary Sue is that they trivialize everything the story wants you to believe is important. Dark lord, who has slain dozens of would-be heroes over hundreds of years? Mary Sue beats him in moments. Order of badasses who only accept the best of the best? They try to recruit Mary Sue after knowing her for fifteen minutes. A secret technique that takes masters years to learn? Mary Sue masters it in seconds. Death God, who could potentially have nearly any woman who ever lived? He falls die-hard in love with Mary Sue after a few interactions. Everything loses its status in order to make Mary Sue look good.

  • @KaiserShounen

    @KaiserShounen

    13 күн бұрын

    Correct

  • @siobhannoble8545

    @siobhannoble8545

    13 күн бұрын

    You just basically summed up every isekei anime that's come out in the past decade. Except replace she with he.

  • @jorgeortega2878
    @jorgeortega28788 күн бұрын

    43:20 45:28 You guys are actually right on the money, just not on the right fanfiction. It's highly likely it was made in regards to her OC in her Star Wars sequel trilogy rewrite where she gives Ray a black "woke socialist sith lord" girlfriend that's she's gotten much more backlash over in regards to being called a Mary Sue. That's probably also her reasoning for what she put in 31:21 in regards to black women I actually highly recommend Manufatura's video "analyzing Lily Orchards morality compass" in which she analyzes two videos that Lily made for the same reason she made this one on Mary Sue's: to defend her OC from people criticizing it.

  • @liamdalemon1525
    @liamdalemon15255 күн бұрын

    Heres my take on this situation: sometimes you want to see Batman struggle against the odds, and sometimes you want to see Superman power through everything. Both are enjoyable for different reasons.

  • @RenoReborn
    @RenoReborn12 күн бұрын

    Mary Sues can work in a story that is constructed for them, that's literally what the action genre is, it's a sandbox for actors to say and do cool shit and have everything work out for the hero in the end. Mary Sues become a problem when you want to do literally anything else, they will destroy any story that doesn't explicitly make accommodations for them.

  • @dagogogoch
    @dagogogoch12 күн бұрын

    Oh boy this is gonna be fun

  • @entr3_nou5
    @entr3_nou54 сағат бұрын

    Feel like it’s worth noting: Lily thinks that “Mary Sue = cool character with lots of powers” because that was the prominent belief in chronically online fandom circles, primarily Bronies. She doesn’t have the video up now because she incriminates herself with writing her incest fic in it, but Lily made a video once about how you shouldn’t limit yourself to only writing slice of life stories about characters just going about their day because if you give your pony OC special powers and stakes in a story with canon characters Bronies will label your character a Sue. That, in its fandom vacuum, is good advice. The problem is that Lily doesn’t consume any media on its own. She’s always half-finishing shit and relying on Tumblr users to fill in the gaps on what she didn’t feel like watching. She’s surrounded herself with the same Tumblr fandom mindsets and KZreadr critiques for YEARS, hence why her own mindset on what makes a character a Sue is, ironically, very dated with how progressive she likes to claim she is.

  • @alexrussell6399
    @alexrussell639913 күн бұрын

    The reason lily is not talking about the anime is because she's only seen 3 and all other are bad because BOY.

  • @angelorosso4871
    @angelorosso48715 күн бұрын

    17:07 I think it's also worth noting that when Elle does "Swagger" it's fashion related. like her dramatic success was because she re-heard the witness testimony and realized it made no sense because they were Permed and had permed their hair for years

  • @del3496
    @del34964 күн бұрын

    Imagine having so many trash takes you still get analyzed and made fun of even after falling off Lily Orchard moment

  • @vidmanandrew09
    @vidmanandrew096 күн бұрын

    Here’s an easy shorthand to handle dealing with Lily. Ready everybody? *clears throat* Lily never does her research.

  • @wachyfanning
    @wachyfanning14 күн бұрын

    I think a more accurate definition of the trope (more of an archetype at this point) is a character who is not subject to the laws of cause and effect established either by the text of the real world. That is to say, there is a dissonance between the effort the character must use, and the effectiveness of the desired result. A couple days training gives them more power than the masters of the art. Actions which are supposedly character flaws do not actually impede their progress towards their goal, but often further it. Being a jerk, an idiot, or a fraud, do not deter other characters from adoring and praising them. Some Mary Sues may possess one of these traits and not others, multiple, or even all - the one thing unifying them is that dissonance between cause and effect. Rey, for instance, is a Mary Sue. Within a couple minutes/hours she accomplishes a Jedi mind trick, a technique even masters of the art struggled with. In the span of a few days, she was able to pull a lightsaber to her hand, in contest with a trained force-user - something Luke struggled with after 3 years of training and no other force-user fighting him for it. Perhaps a few weeks later, she is able to lift a number of rocks which are likely greater in weight than the X-Wing Luke would fail to lift. And then, after finally getting substancial time to train, she literally achieves an ability so rare and difficult to accomplish that the seeking of it literally drove the plot of Episode 3. But I disagree with defining the trope as inherently bad or detracting from the text. While dissonance can detract from a text, it is dissonance which drives them. The reveal that Darth Vader was Luke's father, for instance, would not be a twist at all, if there were not such a distance between the described heroism of Anakin and the evident villany of Vader. The archetype of the Mary Sue has been used to great effect. Take American Psycho. Patrick Bateman is a Mary Sue. He openly discusses his lust for violence and murder; he is openly seen carrying blood-soaked sheets and bodies in bags; he is a terrible liar, who by all means should have been caught by the detective; and he literally got into a shootout with the cops during a killing spree. And yet, the film ends, and Patrick Bateman remains free. This works, however, where Rey does not. Because American Psycho is ABOUT this dissonance. It is about the power of the wealthy, how untouchable they are, how tyrannical they may be and suffer no consequence. It is also about the instablity of the psyche, and we frequently question whether or not certain events even happened. Rey does not pull off the trope, because the films have literally nothing to say about it. The dissonance between her actions and their consequences is a result of Disney's strict 'guidelines' of how a "strong female protagonist" must look. They are scared of having her grow stronger over the text, because she must therefore begin weak. They are scared of having her decisions inadvertantly harm people, because then she is made to look like a fool. They must at all costs avoid alienating the female audience member - but in doing so, they infantilize her. However, It is evident in real life that plenty of women have outstanding potential and are continuously held down by patriarchy. It is therefore no wonder why even facile attempts at 'strong female protagonists' resonate with women who have had their potential squashed out of them. The narrative of a woman's discovery of her own existing potential is a powerful one - I only hope that it is told through better means in the future.

  • @secondmemelord8859

    @secondmemelord8859

    14 күн бұрын

    There are also 2 other Points in Batemans favour. First is that American Psycho is a horror comedy. Its meant to be darkly humorous how he is able to get away with the things he does. Second is that alot of things happening in the Movie/Book may be just be Batemans Imagination, therefor he is only getting unpunished since he never did anything at all and is just a sad angry man.

  • @skyslasher2297
    @skyslasher229714 күн бұрын

    17:21 the musical is better by virtue of having There Right There in the sound track (AKA The Gay or European song)

  • @terribleexampleofacat
    @terribleexampleofacat13 күн бұрын

    22:39 OSP MENTION

  • @Nova-rd3hi
    @Nova-rd3hi4 күн бұрын

    Does Lily even realize that there are characters in DC that can challenge or even demolish Superman physically? Darkseid is basically his Bane.

  • @tailsspin621
    @tailsspin62114 күн бұрын

    Oh my god you are angry in this... ...and for good reason. I mean, how can anyone say the things Lilly says with a straight face? I have a burning passion for storytelling, so much so that i would try to become an author if i had anything resembling a single creative idea in my entire body. I live for the story, i would give my life if that would further the art in a meaningful way. To see somebody misrepresent the fundamentals so brazenly makes my blood boil. So yeah, good video.

  • @KaiserShounen

    @KaiserShounen

    14 күн бұрын

    You got that right

  • @nevaehhamilton3493

    @nevaehhamilton3493

    14 күн бұрын

    Her very existence an insult to the Ancient Greek Muses.

  • @SearedBooks
    @SearedBooks14 күн бұрын

    When I started writing, I was worried about my MC actually being a gary stu. He is abnormally competent. He just so happens to be related to powerful people. He is a perfect little experiment by chance, and some times events just fall in his lap. But, is that normal? It feels like it's too perfect, like he's being set up. And the other side of hyper competence is that each time he fails it hits him hard, and no matter how many times he tries to feign humility, deep down he's got an ego that hurts him and others. And then imagine the shock when he finds out that yes, his life was the result of manipulation from before he was even born, and not all, but a lot of the horrible traumatic events that made him stronger both physically and magically, but crippled him mentally and emotionally, were because he was a pawn in someone's game. If I played it completely straight, if it really was just a big coincidence, he'd be boring, another bland gary stu that wins everything because he was just born better. I didn't have everything planned out, but the basis for the story at the start was about how someone born into power and forced into a larger role he never wanted. For every hero that saves the day, you also risk breaking a young person who couldn't handle the pressure that comes from having that much weight up on his shoulders. More specifically, I was thinking about someone like Harry Potter. Let's say he actually had a great home life, and while he thought magic was cool, he was content with staying because of the disconnect between magic and muggle society. But Hagrid puts him in a burlap sack and takes him to Hogwarts anyway because they knew he was special and destined to killed Voldemort.

  • @KissatenYoba

    @KissatenYoba

    14 күн бұрын

    nothing of this matters, probably. Young authors worry too much about useless stuff they don't need to worry about at all, they'll probably write better stories if they just don't worry about appearances. I find it the best practice for myself to just move the character's backstory to present time and make it into the actual story, while keeping the current theme. Backstory is just lore, it doesn't have emotional weight that the actual story is built atop, so it's better to cannibalize backstory's structures because they tend to be thought out.

  • @krraika1847

    @krraika1847

    14 күн бұрын

    I can understand where you're coming from, but based on what I've read in your comment, you seem to have an overall good hold on your character. Like Kaiser and Pete mentioned in their other video covering Orchard (on Kaiser's channel), if a character is too competent, then give them something that cannot overcome. Keep in mind, you don't need anything complicated. Sometimes, simplicity is easy. You could write your character like the star student at a high school who doesn't really have any friends. Or look at examples of what you're looking for, e.g. Paul Atreides from Dune (more so from the Sci-Fi adaptation and recent movies since I haven't read the book). In any case, best wishes with your story.

  • @SearedBooks

    @SearedBooks

    14 күн бұрын

    @@krraika1847 Thank you. And yeah, I get the thing about simple sometimes being best. Not everyone needs to have a backstory at all, and they don't need to have anything complex even if they do have a backstory. On my story, one of the things that consistently gets mentioned as a strong point is my characters, even in short stories that only imply the existence of their past. Sorta funny, but one of the things I hear the most as a point against my web novel is that I don't explain everything all at once. I don't consider it valid really, because they are really just asking for me to exposit at them instead of letting things be explained when it's proper to do so because I don't want to bog down the pacing.

  • @channel45853

    @channel45853

    13 күн бұрын

    Writing is more fluid then most detractors would have you believe, you shouldn't forget to not bog yourself down with the "right way" to write, otherwise you could make something that works formulacially, but maybe you want your story to work in a different way and remember, just because something is a critique doesn't mean it's a critique that is an objective flaw for example, people love to throw around "show don't tell" yet Kojima tells a lot more than it seemed like he was showing in Metal Gear Solid games, and people loved that style

  • @anotherrandomguy8871
    @anotherrandomguy887110 күн бұрын

    27:40 so this was kinda your entire point, but this does emphasize that I guess Lilly’s idea of character might just come down to if the character is a badass that destroys everything, because I don’t see how Rey not killing Ren means that the series took away her character. If anything, Rey never had much character, they didn’t take away from it in this movie. Hell in this movie they tried to actually give her a semi backstory that was honestly forgettable, not take away character, it’s just that she never had much of one and abandoned her conflict.

  • @zeogold
    @zeogold14 күн бұрын

    1. 21:59-22:36 Let's add Nico Robin, and Yamato from One Piece, Bijinder from Kikaider 01, Android 18 from Dragonball, any of the female rangers in power rangers/super sentai, Arcee, Windblade, and Elita one from transformers, and Pike, Vex, and Keyleth from legend of Vox Machina to the list of cool female characters that people like. 2. The fact that Lily thinks that Luke is a poorly written character while praising Rey goes to show that Lily was never really a fan of Star Wars. 3. 34:58 Lily really really really hates Eastern animation, did you hear what she said about studio Trigger?

  • @KaiserShounen

    @KaiserShounen

    13 күн бұрын

    That I did

  • @ak9k472

    @ak9k472

    10 күн бұрын

    Funny how she hates anime yet writes the shit she goes at the entire medium for doing. Rules for ye and not for me

  • @jamesdigennaro6705
    @jamesdigennaro670514 күн бұрын

    I'd add Pyra and Mythra to the list too considering both of their cases of PTSD and DID.

  • @greencomet2011
    @greencomet20116 күн бұрын

    Lily doesn't understand a lot of things. She only thinks she does.

  • @vidmanandrew09

    @vidmanandrew09

    6 күн бұрын

    She thinks the world works how it does in her sad and twisted little mind. How quick she’ll withdraw from any interacts when she takes off the blinders and sees the world in all its grey glory.

  • @x7heDeviLx
    @x7heDeviLx14 күн бұрын

    I kno you want the term Mary Sue to mean what it used to or the version of the definition you first learned. But As a species, we have an innate need to express ourselves and on this level, the pace of linguistic change is not only a good thing but a faster pace of linguistic change is essential to evolution.

  • @KaiserShounen

    @KaiserShounen

    14 күн бұрын

    Ok but we need to change words in a way that is useful for us to use. Words can change due to culture but also because of utility. Our definition has utility and most others don't.

  • @Ramsey276one
    @Ramsey276one13 күн бұрын

    The music choices are great, and kinda distracted me trying to remember the titles/sources! XD

  • @periodicpete

    @periodicpete

    13 күн бұрын

    Thank you! It means a lot. Though, Kaiser picked out a lot of the song choices. Any that you want the name of? Best to ask now while they're still fresh in my mind.

  • @Ramsey276one

    @Ramsey276one

    13 күн бұрын

    @@periodicpete I think I remembered them all XD

  • @stargate4625
    @stargate462514 күн бұрын

    glad im here (:

  • @plaguedoctor2882
    @plaguedoctor2882Күн бұрын

    Loved when you dropped the beloved female character list, truly banger after banger there

  • @gabrielcancelado2490
    @gabrielcancelado249013 күн бұрын

    31:16 well... she technically is writing some fanfiction about trauma and reconciliation about siblings on the real world... wich it evidentiates this: To her, is either a melodramatic sludge set in the real world, or power fantasy were cool character do cool things.

  • @titanthelestrandom6614
    @titanthelestrandom661413 күн бұрын

    I don't pay much mind to the mary sues trope, but I will say my favourite Mary Sue is the character Mary Sue from Youjo Senki. Good light novel will recommend also an anime if your interested in that more then the Light novel. Anyway have a good day everyone

  • @dannysdungareedanceoff8481
    @dannysdungareedanceoff848114 күн бұрын

    Half the time things like the stakes not rising or something isn't even a good criticism because it isn't necessarily Doesn't matter if we know ___ will be saved, the point is to see the process and characters

  • @zemufinman1639
    @zemufinman163911 күн бұрын

    Lorax quote

  • @josephercanbrack8393
    @josephercanbrack83933 күн бұрын

    38:06 I wasn't expecting Mauler to be referenced, but I'm far from disappointed. I don't think I've seen any other critic thoroughly go over nearly each line of dialogue and explain its problems.

  • @Xer0Kai225
    @Xer0Kai22515 күн бұрын

    W video

  • @bepisthescienceman4202
    @bepisthescienceman420214 күн бұрын

    41:57 okay can we just pay attention to this wack part? Like yeah capitalism did delude feminism by making it be "women should be allowed wear the boot that crushes poor people"

  • @comfyghost
    @comfyghost14 күн бұрын

    i'm actually a bit surprised korra wasn't one of lily's examples of "good" mary sues, because despite her being a clear example of a mary sue, even one used in kaiser's video, she's probably the easiest to defend. now that's not saying much, and when korra unlocks life bending because of a story breaking deus ex machina, then really there's nothing that's gonna save her from the label, and having metal bending without seismic sense doesn't help either. but her starting the story already having mastered all 4 bending styles, while still mary sue behaviour, actually does make a meta amount of sense, since it allows the story to start where the last one left off, without fear of retreading stuff we've already watched. like a video game sequel that starts you off with all the abilities from the last game so you aren't waiting to unlock them again, or where the first level is just as hard as the last games final level so you aren't waiting for the tension to rise back up. now, this isn't a perfect defence, but it's not a hard one to make, especially since i could've just left out how the life and metal bending is still bad writing, cherry picking out a stronger argument on why mary sues can be good sometimes, and i'm surprised lily didn't make it herself. except i know why she didn't, because if the fact she titled a video "korra is garbage" means anything, i assume it's that she doesn't like that show, and her video wasn't actually about arguing for the sake of the trope, but an excuse on why she's allowed to like the poorly written characters she likes, which is honestly pathetic. you don't need an excuse to like something, even if that thing isn't good.

  • @imgkaizer

    @imgkaizer

    13 күн бұрын

    I do agree with most of what you said, the only thing I disagree is the least important thing I could. Does someone really need seismic sense to metal bend? I don't really remember that being said anywhere, I think metal bending was only discovered because of toph's unorthodox way of seeing the world and the things she could bend, and that's why she was the one to discover it, I might just be misinformed though.

  • @comfyghost

    @comfyghost

    13 күн бұрын

    @@imgkaizer to be honest, i don't remember either, but it was stated in kaiser's video when they touched on korra, so i sorta just went with that, since it's minor point anyway.

  • @imgkaizer

    @imgkaizer

    13 күн бұрын

    @@comfyghost Yeah, guess I wasn't even disagreeing there, just confused really

  • @siobhannoble8545

    @siobhannoble8545

    13 күн бұрын

    Korra constantly faces negative repercussions for her actions and choices. Mary Sues do not. Powerful female characters are not Mary Sues by default.

  • @comfyghost

    @comfyghost

    13 күн бұрын

    @@siobhannoble8545 i never said she didn't face consequences or challenges, but that doesn't make her, or any character not a mary sue, because that doesn't mean the plot isn't bending around them in other ways. besides her just being a prodigy, korra getting life bending because a previous avatar gave it to her not only devalues the ability, but all the training she and any previous avatar ever put into bending. that's her being a mary sue, no matter what else happens to her. a stories flaws are never binary, and just because korra isn't nearly as much of one as characters like rae skywalker, or mcu captain marvel, or some random 14 year old oc, doesn't mean her story doesn't suffer from it at times, and even if she's only a mary sue sometimes, that still means that she's sometimes a mary sue. i still like korra, both the character and the series, i seriously hope the fact my original comment was actually about defending her made that clear, but i can still find flaws in something i consider good.

  • @awiedhuman159
    @awiedhuman15913 күн бұрын

    Your guys are cool. :)

  • @austinlarrimore6542
    @austinlarrimore654211 күн бұрын

    What’s crazy is up until this video all I have seen from lily is the legend of korra video where I agree with a majority of that video, and now I see this video and I’m like wtf is the person talking about😂most if not all of these examples aren’t Sue’s and they are liked

  • @jerbear8884
    @jerbear888412 күн бұрын

    28:20 TWEWY music detected. Video instantly based

  • @periodicpete

    @periodicpete

    12 күн бұрын

    You can thank Kaiser for that. He recommended it

  • @rotomfan63
    @rotomfan637 күн бұрын

    It's all been about her fanfcs the whole time, hasn't it?

  • @icebirdj5935
    @icebirdj593514 күн бұрын

    In my opinion, Ken from the barbie movie isn't a marry sue... but can someone explain to me why people think he is?

  • @periodicpete

    @periodicpete

    14 күн бұрын

    People think he's a Mary Sue?

  • @versus22REALLY
    @versus22REALLY11 күн бұрын

    I’ve been seen this idea a lot if there hot their a sue, even if they constantly get beaten up and shoved in the trashcan

  • @StanoKovacik
    @StanoKovacik14 күн бұрын

    Great video! I am still convinced Lily is a paid actor, hard to believe someone like that actually exists.

  • @StarlightUmbra
    @StarlightUmbra14 күн бұрын

    21:59 - 22:36 the worst part is half the characters you showed during your compilation she hates. like i know she hates most anime even if it fits a lot of her preferences for viewing (ie dungeon meshi), she despises 2b, and her opinion on bell/beauty and the beast is low in general. i think the one character i see in this line up that the would praise is aqua from kingdom hearts because that series is her baby even though she cannot pick up the themes and thinks that the games on the side systems are not relevant to the story.

  • @KaiserShounen

    @KaiserShounen

    14 күн бұрын

    Well we showed plenty of cartoon characters and movie characters as well. So unless Lily wants to be a massive contrarian (again), she will not questions those parts of her list.

  • @KaiserShounen

    @KaiserShounen

    14 күн бұрын

    Also what did she say about 2B?

  • @periodicpete

    @periodicpete

    14 күн бұрын

    That's news to me. I had no idea that she disliked that many characters and I'm a little skeptical that she's even aware of that many of them. But the ultimate point is that there are tons of competent female characters people like, disproving the notion that fandoms hate female characters because of misogyny.

  • @StarlightUmbra

    @StarlightUmbra

    13 күн бұрын

    @@KaiserShounen she called 2b a "yor forger as a french maid fetish robot" this is in her dungeon meshi video

  • @KaiserShounen

    @KaiserShounen

    13 күн бұрын

    @@StarlightUmbra why am I not surprised

  • @B3N_Youtube
    @B3N_Youtube14 күн бұрын

    Korsica got mentioned, based

  • @KaiserShounen

    @KaiserShounen

    14 күн бұрын

    Hell yeah

  • @officerbucktuddrussel394
    @officerbucktuddrussel3944 күн бұрын

    I like 'In Another World with My Smartphone' and harem anime/manga in general because while the main protagonist 9/10 is just a boring, paint-by-numbers self insert that stray's into Gary Stu territory the side characters and the members of the harem usually are very unique, interesting and personable.

  • @conradvallon5661
    @conradvallon566114 күн бұрын

    Wait what did Kaiser mean about Shirou Emiya being a Mary Sue? He isn't one from my perspective (Have only watched UBW Route)

  • @defineanime5549

    @defineanime5549

    14 күн бұрын

    Did they even specify which route cause he's only kinda the only protags during the first route

  • @KaiserShounen

    @KaiserShounen

    14 күн бұрын

    Stick around in Pete's channel and you'll find out why

  • @KaiserShounen
    @KaiserShounenКүн бұрын

    32:24 Cameo

  • @ak9k472
    @ak9k47213 күн бұрын

    The shadow boxing is none stop with this broad

  • @KaiserShounen

    @KaiserShounen

    13 күн бұрын

    She's the shadow boxing heavyweight champion

  • @onesmart229
    @onesmart22914 күн бұрын

    38:08 everyone giving a personal interpretation of what the term means putting different characters in and out the box based it. It’s not a term useful for general discussion. Only used in video essays under a single individuals interpretation at the time.

  • @channel45853

    @channel45853

    13 күн бұрын

    yeah, if a term is so badly used that many can't agree on a definition, then that term should be thrown out

  • @dtkedtyjrtyj
    @dtkedtyjrtyj14 күн бұрын

    Is Jake Sully from avatar a Mary Sue? He's the protagonist, the story bends itself into a pretzel to make his decisions work. Nothing he ever does is wrong, everyone likes him except the antagonists, and everything pretty much works out for him. One could argue that he cannot be a Mary Sue because he is the villain, but I don't think that is correct. Villans can be Mary Sues, it's the antagonists that cannot be Mary Sue.

  • @TheDisquietingNight

    @TheDisquietingNight

    14 күн бұрын

    ...huh...i think he is, now that you say it...

  • @Nameless-ln5mr

    @Nameless-ln5mr

    14 күн бұрын

    About your whole villain point… There’s a term known as Villain Sue, so you’re right. Villains CAN be Mary Sues/Marty Stus.

  • @landaclay9331

    @landaclay9331

    13 күн бұрын

    ​@@TheDisquietingNight yea he is he betrayed his planet killing thousounds all for blue giant cat cheeks

  • @onesmart229
    @onesmart22914 күн бұрын

    40:43 that doesn’t mean it’s not a buzzword.

  • @galaxydacreature
    @galaxydacreature13 күн бұрын

    43:02 did. Did Lily Orchard ACTUALLY just imply Ebony Dark'ness Dementia Raven Way is only called a Mary Sue because she has a ridiculous name? Like is that what she's implying or am I just severely misreading this moment? Because if she is, she doesn't know ANYTHING about My Immortal oh my FUCKING god- wether she's a parody or not(which this is even worse if she IS a parody), Ebony Dark'ness is the fucking TEXT BOOK DEFINITION of a Mary Sue in EVERY WAY POSSIBLE- Lily wouldn't be referencing her if she didn't KNOW THIS because that is what Ebony is FAMOUS FOR- does Lily genuinely think she isn't a Mary Sue!?!?!?!?!?! Hello!?!?!?!?!?!?

  • @KaiserShounen

    @KaiserShounen

    13 күн бұрын

    The mary sue is a pathway to many things some consider to be... unnatural

  • @MissCaraMint
    @MissCaraMint14 күн бұрын

    Oh interesting. I did wonder what criteria she actually uses to chose which characters she likes and which she doesn’t.

  • @KaiserShounen

    @KaiserShounen

    14 күн бұрын

    And now you know, and knowing is half the battle ;)

  • @MissCaraMint

    @MissCaraMint

    14 күн бұрын

    @@KaiserShounen Ok so I watched this video and your video, and I'm still confused about her logic. Her standards for what she likes seem so damn arbitrary. It's like she doesn't like stuff because of a certain set of criteria, but rather she has to apply arbitrary sets of criteria onto things she happens to like for whatever reason. It's backwards justification forced to fit. God damn it I thought my brain was melting listening to Sai's livestreams the other day. I think this just aded to it.

  • @KaiserShounen

    @KaiserShounen

    14 күн бұрын

    @@MissCaraMint And it only gets worse with each passing video. Here's the evidence. You decide

  • @vidmanandrew09

    @vidmanandrew09

    6 күн бұрын

    @@MissCaraMint *like a man with only a half hour’s worth of sleep and fifty cups of coffee* Thaaaat’s Lily!

  • @Wubster649
    @Wubster64914 күн бұрын

    22:04 ya cooked her

  • @KaiserShounen

    @KaiserShounen

    14 күн бұрын

    Buddy, we turned her into BBQ lol

  • @imgkaizer

    @imgkaizer

    13 күн бұрын

    ​@@KaiserShounenYou guys carbonized her bro

  • @snakewarlock5291
    @snakewarlock52914 күн бұрын

    Its just a jump to the left

  • @GuitarrAssassin
    @GuitarrAssassin13 күн бұрын

    There's drama with Lilly Orchard? I only came here because the Almighty Algorithm recommended this vid to me.

  • @themechanic9974
    @themechanic997413 күн бұрын

    Good videos I do think that if you changed your definitions of marie sue to hers you would agree with her. Except that last part that last section is stupid af

  • @avochao
    @avochao13 күн бұрын

    I think that calling game protagonists (that you control, make decisions for and etc) a Mary Sue is kinda the point? Like ofc they are the protagonist, we play this game to feel important and be a hero so developers want to make it fun for the players. Its the kind of the game you play to be a absolute unit of a human and have fun while still going through hardships, thats the point of the game. Though ofc you can make bad decisions if you want.

  • @saltysocks1074
    @saltysocks107414 күн бұрын

    Wait, people call korra a mary sue?

  • @darknessrising2453
    @darknessrising24537 сағат бұрын

    Unfortunately by this point, the term "Mary Sue" has become synonymous with "character I hate and want EVERYONE else to hate". The female character improves in any way shape or form? She's a Mary Sue. If she has flaws that she's working through? Also a Mary Sue. There's just no winning in certain cases because someone WANTS an excuse to hate the character.

  • @MisterBones223
    @MisterBones22314 күн бұрын

    Addressing the drama: If she committed a crime, send her to court Otherwise, who cares?

  • @olserknam
    @olserknam7 күн бұрын

    Of course you can justify a superhero using their powers to mess with people. Spider-Man would occasionally web up Jameson's mouth or glue him to the ceiling for writing defamatory articles. Daredevil tied up his friend's bully and left him naked in the Winter show for an entire night (and this doesn't just come from a random comic book, this comes from Man Without Fear, one of the first comics you'd find if you looked up Daredevil's most famous and iconic stories). Half of JoJo protagonists use their powers to mess with normal people at some point. And a super-powered protagonist finding a clever way to embarrass or scare some normal loud-mouthed jerk is a shonen staple trope. And while I'm on the topic of anime protagonists, it's pretty interesting how they are rarely ever the subject of Mary Sue discussion despite oftentimes being overpowered, having gung-ho attitudes and not having to struggle with moral choices. I'm guessing it's because these kinds of characters are more normalized in the medium. A lot of manga, especially that are aimed at younger demographics, are gratuitous wish fulfillment fantasies made to be read on a commute train and thrown away. It's not made to be high art. If people were to apply the same strict standards to anime characters they apply to Western ones, they would have to do lots of mental gymnastics to justify why that doesn't make them Mary Sues, according to those standards.

  • @KaiserShounen

    @KaiserShounen

    2 күн бұрын

    Hurting a bystander doesn't make a character a Mary Sue... I feel like that's obvious, it just kinda makes them shitty depending on the context.

  • @periodicpete

    @periodicpete

    2 күн бұрын

    Just so I'm clear: You can justify a "hero" stealing a $10,000 motorbike from someone (and break their hand, if we're counting the deleted scene) just for [checks notes] Asking a woman to smile?

  • @krraika1847

    @krraika1847

    Күн бұрын

    @@periodicpete People can try to justify it. Doesn't mean it's right. It's like trying to justify a guy murdering women and children for a mom he ignored until the last minute--as well as the same guy not dealing with any consequences (*cough* Anakin *cough*).

  • @olserknam

    @olserknam

    Күн бұрын

    @@periodicpete Of course I can. Here's my justification: this scene doesn't matter and there are more substantial things to criticize. It's a throwaway joke where the hero uses their powers to take down a guy who's unpleasant to them. Like I said, a standard trope. The main reason people might complain about this particular instance of it is because the movie is controversial to begin with and people are more eager to scrutinize every aspect of it. When generally beloved media features a potentially questionable trope, people can wave it away and ignore its implications. When controversial media features the same trope, people are going to deconstruct and scrutinize this trope and demand the piece of media justify the trope's very existence. I could feign outrage over something like Josuke Joestar using his powers to scam legitimate lotery winners out of millions, I could question why something so immoral is being put into a comic aimed at actual children and why are we expected to take a character who does this as a role model. I could feign outrage over Spider-Man initially using his powers for wrestling matches with non-powered people who were weaker than him, in a way robbing them of the prize money they could've used to feed their families and whether you could call him a hero with this in mind... But I won't, and neither will anyone else ever, because it doesn't matter. It's a lighthearted joke that was never meant to be thorougly scrutinized and deconstructed for its realistic implications. I can tell with complete, 100% confidence that if the exact same scene with the motorcycle guy was put into a generally beloved work, people would be willing to wave it away as a joke instead of getting offended on behalf of a nameless character with two lines of dialogue. I'm not writing so much about this to defend CM. Like I said in another comment, I barely remember it. It's more that I'm annoyed with this tendency to only care about a trope's potential implications when it shows up in a controversial work, while ignoring what it might imply in similar but more well-liked works. Maybe we should be more conscious of this as a whole and recognize that superhero stories are inherently power fantasies for children that simply weren't meant to be interrogated from the perspective of mundane everyday life morality. Instead of only bringing this up to lambast a specific work that's far from the first one to use the trope.

  • @periodicpete

    @periodicpete

    Күн бұрын

    @@olserknam So I see you've not actually answered the question. In your own words, all you've done is "wave it away and ignore its implications". You've not justified anything about the scene Let's suppose I'm willing to concede to your point on all the other examples that you've given and admit I don't think it's good for Spiderman, Daredevil, Jojo, or any other character to have done something similar. How do you justify Carol's actions? You don't need to know anything else in the movie. All you need is what's in the scene. You say that it's used for a joke, but I'm not getting the joke. Maybe you could explain it to me? A man asked her to smile so it's funny to watch him suffer as he's beaten and robbed? If someone said something mildly annoying to you, would you take pleasure in their suffering if someone else brutally beat them until their hand was broken before stealing their car? I don't think you would and I'd like to believe you'd see the scene the same way I do. I think there are instances where stuff like this is ignored by others as well when it shouldn't. A lot of Tom and Jerry skits I feel are built on the idea you have to ignore that Jerry is being a piece of shit in order to enjoy them. But I don't think that makes them well written. If you admit maybe the issue is with the biases of people who are willing to ignore these kinds of problems, are you willing to admit your own bias, or do you want to try justifying Carol one more time?

  • @onesmart229
    @onesmart22914 күн бұрын

    31:55 so 3 characters with no similarities what so ever?

  • @cosmicwooloo
    @cosmicwooloo14 күн бұрын

    I think Ava from boarderlands 3 is a marry sue, she becomes a siren out of nowhere, knows how to use her powers despite not knowing what they might even be or have any training. Not to mention she’s annoying as all hell and blames Lilith for Maya’s death when Ava caused it

  • @channel45853

    @channel45853

    13 күн бұрын

    aren't women in borderlands just born as sirens, so she never technically became one out of knowhere, and a wasn't Lilith training her because she had that power? being annoying doesn't make one a flawed character nor does her doing actions you do not like make her one

  • @cosmicwooloo

    @cosmicwooloo

    13 күн бұрын

    @@channel45853 Ava wasn’t born as a siren. She got her powers from Maya when she died and had them stolen by Troy

  • @becuaseimbored3481
    @becuaseimbored348113 күн бұрын

    I think the problem is that the term "mary sue" is so overused with so many different meanings that the term is practically useless

  • @Waaagh40KRed
    @Waaagh40KRed14 күн бұрын

    Question: Would Hajime Nagumo count as a Gary Stu?

  • @defineanime5549

    @defineanime5549

    14 күн бұрын

    I like to see Hajime as competent, but he has his moments where his confidence really gets him to undermine his appointment, or he really has to play a strategic game against a overwhelming force like in the final story arc

  • @Waaagh40KRed

    @Waaagh40KRed

    14 күн бұрын

    @@defineanime5549 Are you referring to the manga. Because the anime makes him seem like a Gary Stu.

  • @defineanime5549

    @defineanime5549

    14 күн бұрын

    @@Waaagh40KRed oh, no I'm referring to the light novel, I read the Manga before the anime was out than jumped to the light novel

  • @Waaagh40KRed

    @Waaagh40KRed

    14 күн бұрын

    @@defineanime5549 What are your thoughts on the anime?

  • @defineanime5549

    @defineanime5549

    14 күн бұрын

    @@Waaagh40KRed there's cut content that kinda builds his character or those little moments that make sense later in the series, and as you mentioned that anime blurs the lines between the his competency and Gary stu moments, there's also tios moments (honestly the authors teases us with a really compents/ less masochistic version of her when the situation is calling for it) but even with all of the things that I mentioned I still find it enjoyable

  • @terribleexampleofacat
    @terribleexampleofacat13 күн бұрын

    21:04 Is this interaction bait?

  • @onesmart229
    @onesmart22914 күн бұрын

    46:15 I thought you agreed it was story issue not a character issue definition now you are saying that it’s a character issue harming the story. You never actually gave a proper reason why captain marvel or Rey fit that mold.

  • @ZAllen-bt6kb
    @ZAllen-bt6kb14 күн бұрын

    Why am I hearing TWEWY music?

  • @ma.2089

    @ma.2089

    14 күн бұрын

    Cuz it’s awesome

  • @KaiserShounen

    @KaiserShounen

    14 күн бұрын

    Cuz we cool like that lol

  • @user-xz2cv8ji4s
    @user-xz2cv8ji4s14 күн бұрын

    IM GOING TO ALICE (Like if you get this)

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