I have an older 135bhp Caterham, probably worth around £14-15k. I regularly get beaten by modern cars from the lights if I can be bothered to try. The great thing is after a track day who has the biggest smile on their face? People come up to you when you are parked and Caterham drivers always acknowledge each other on the road wirh a wave. Power to weigh or smiles per £, mine is the best fun that you can have with your clothes on. The moral is that you don't have to spend a fortune on a 7.

This is a comparison that no one asked for but we're so glad you did it 👏 Bravo

@Autoexpress

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks, Steve certainly enjoyed himself!

You have to bring the 620r to the track. Love the split screen video with nothing but engine sound 👍🏼

That Caterham is fantastic. I guess this shows the difference between someone who loves cars Vs someone who loves driving. For the price of the bloated M3 you can get a Caterham and a comfy daily. Shame they didn't use a 620, still around half the price of an M3.

@harrisr1018

2 жыл бұрын

Why have a caterham and a comfy daily when you can have both in one?? That's what the m3 is for lol

@IamDude2

2 жыл бұрын

@@harrisr1018 because the caterham is so much more involving to drive, so many more smiles, and you don’t notice the difference in pace when you’re in it, that close to the ground. A decent daily and a caterham in the garage for the weekend blasts is all you’ll ever want, once you’ve driven one. Don’t forget how much help the driver is getting in modern barges, point and shoot, let the systems keep you on the road, in the caterham it’s all about you, M3 is about “look what I can afford” (shh it’s on finance and I don’t have kids), caterham is about “I just love to actually drive”. Which is I believe what Rhowhat is rightly saying.

@RobManser77

2 жыл бұрын

@@harrisr1018 I thought that before I'd driven an M3, but despite the journalistic hyperbole, M cars (and RS and AMG cars, all of which I've driven on road and track) aren't really the focused feelsome driver's cars they're made out to be. The M3 is a very, very good car, but it just doesn't give the feedback, involvement and excitement that a Caterham, Elise or similar can. Absolutely nowhere near. The M3 is what a comfy family car would be if I was in charge of BMW - maybe that's a better way to put it. It's a family car perfected - a normal 3 series with nice bits. It is nowhere near - absolutely nowhere near - as good to drive as a Caterham.

@unrealeck

2 жыл бұрын

@@RobManser77 '3 series with nice bits' is being a bit dishonest there. Because if you've driven the M3, you would know what an M3 is compared to a 3 series.

@BigDuke6ixx

Жыл бұрын

@@harrisr1018 the m3 is a bit gay with all those driver aids. It's also a wanka's car.

Thank you Steve, as ever 🙂 I wish EVO had taken the XDrive to their recent ECOTY. Your comment about the change from power to weight, to more advanced systems reminds me how rally cars went from Group B 400-500 bhp monsters down, nearer to 300 bhp monsters and yet the cars were still faster thanks to clever diffs etc The good news for me is, thanks to your videos (and one or two others), I've been inspired to burn my life savings on an M3 Xdrive 😄

As a track machine I think the answer is clear, if for no other reason than maintenance and consumables. But that M3 would been a lot nicer on a cold rainy morning!

Steve the man..The best as always...We want more this weight vs power track battles!

Happy new year Steve. Your videos have been one of the best thing in 2021.

Another great upload I hope Steve will be doing lots of these over the coming year and years to come 👍🙂

Show the tyres after a few laps on the m3. So far all the reviews say only positive things and zero downsides. Bmw really upded their advertisment game

@mc1996

2 жыл бұрын

It's an M3, it's almost a perfect car...

@superseven7947

2 жыл бұрын

Spot on this video looks like it's a BMW add... Try the same two cars on same tyres over 10 laps.. The BMWs brakes would be gone long before that

power to weight are calculated without the driver... normally not an issue, but for the caterham, a driver lowers the power to weight by quite a lot

@GeordieAmanda

2 жыл бұрын

Yes but Steve has lot a bit of weight during lock down 🙂

I would like to see how the M3 (or any heavier performance car) performs over a course of 10 laps when the whole thing starts to overheat and tyres being shredded under the huge loads of weight, torque and braking forces.

@pollumG

2 жыл бұрын

Brakes would probably be unusable by lap 3

@Master321v

2 жыл бұрын

Also interesting thing..the cost/lap...if you regular trackday guy...the cost of consumable parts are also important..

@marioturkalj3126

2 жыл бұрын

M3 main purpose is driving on normal roads....If you go on track,you update it with better brakes,tires.......make it lighter and so.....

@mattipuh

2 жыл бұрын

Amg 45s lost to GR Yaris - at least. Even much more powerful

@davidcolin6519

Жыл бұрын

@@marioturkalj3126 Making it lighter etc. then compromises the every day nature of the M3. And there is still no disguising the fact that it's still a (fast) luxe barge, and the only reason it still goes fast is the brutishness and electronics. There is no disguising the fact that driving enjoyment is directly affected by higher weight, anywhere the weight is. That Beemer weighs nearly 2 tons, you're not going to be able to lose 500kg, let alone 1000, and the weight is still going to be approx. at the height of the 7's bonnet line.

No mention of aerodynamics. Sevens really suffer over 60 mph, and power to weight won’t help. A tighter course would favour the 360.

Would love to see another race with the 620r. Sort it!

@ralphgascon7337

2 жыл бұрын

My thoughts exactly

@davidlloyd-cx3er

4 ай бұрын

This test is a total waste of time 😢😢

Power to weight ratios much closer when you factor in driver weight, but still surprised the M3 was so much faster.

@steverabbits

2 ай бұрын

Without driver aids and 4wd the M3 would get thrashed I reckon.

Another big difference were the tires, the Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2's are brutal for the track and I think the Caterham would've been a bit closer with those tires (if there are Michelins with the right size of course)

@basketball798

2 жыл бұрын

The tires alone would subtract 3 seconds. The tires are a cheat code

@codyepperson6796

2 жыл бұрын

@@basketball798 probably only 1-1.5 seconds vs 4S ...now the cup 2R would close to 2.5-3 secs on a short tack

@damncritics

2 жыл бұрын

Avon zzs is nothing to sniff at though. They're certainly faster than the 4S, which itself is only about 1.5s a lap slower than the Michelin

@bencrowley689

2 жыл бұрын

@@damncritics Agreed, the Caterham tyres should be very similar to the Michelin’s on the M3. The Cup 2’s are decent, but they’re not a proper R spec tyre. Given the Caterham is built with track work as a primary goal, they’re not running a bad tyre on it.

@gaycha6589

2 жыл бұрын

Too cold in UK for those tyres to work properly at this time of year

Nice and interesting video. I think that this is due to the progress we had in tyre technology in the last years.

First and foremost, more of Steve Sutcliff please. One view would be that on a track, lap time is most important. Another view would be that driver experience is most important. Under the first view, obviously the BMW wins. Under the second view, the Caterham likely wins. As a another commentator pointed out, over 10 or so laps, the tire degradation and perhaps brake fade the BMW would undergo might well undermine its advantage. There is no substitute for light weight and analog controls for driver experience.

@felixalbion

3 ай бұрын

BMW would probably break down.

Wow, I didn't expect this result!

More Steve please!

Also, on a circuit with some fast straights, as this one seems to have, you need to factor in the ratio of power to aerodynamic drag, and the Caterham lags way behind the M3 on that metric.

@XstaticState69

2 жыл бұрын

TAKE 2: Caterham windscreen and doors off!

Great video, but I would rather have a 330d touring and a caterham than the m3 . Even if it’s slower it is much more fun.

@johnpollitt4456

2 жыл бұрын

Exactly. I have a 335d M Sport xdrive touring and its rather fast and frugal plus a lovely 7. Still half the price of an M3 to have both. But if you are feeling inadequate in the p**is dept. go M3🙂

Excellent!!!!

This great 4WD system that acts only when needed isn't a first of its kind though; Skyline R32 GTR had a similar behaving one it back then (1989).

Ooh great video! Rematch with the 420R please, reckon that would be close!

What about the smiles per miles! Great video as aways

Right on New Year

Video reads 6 speed manual, but he tells us it's a 5 speed manual while introducing the cars.... which one is it?

While power to weight is important , dont forget the turbo torque of the BMW which is too much for this Caterham. Would need a 620R I'm thinking.

@Kavafy

Жыл бұрын

Torque doesn't make a car fast. Power is what counts.

I can not wait for the M3 Touring…. Recon my F82 CP might be being traded! Looking forward to seeing the 620R comparison with the M3 Comp X-Drive….. Soon hey Steve?

It would be really good to have the telemetry here so we could see speeds at apex's. I'd love to think the Caterham was faster at certain points but 4 seconds on a short track is an absolutely massive gap. There's no way I'd back the Caterham 620 to make up that difference in anything less than perfect conditions. Come on Auto Express, lets see that one!

If you can test it against the other 2 would be good to watch 👍

Does the power to weight count the driver?

I'm sure the 620R would win but then that's basically a stripped out track machine on steroids with a F2 level of power, if that couldn't beat a executive saloon on a track then there's something fundamentally wrong with racing car design, but then would a 620R even beat a GT3 car though?

À BMW M4 XDrive vs the Nissan GTR would be interesting ! 🤗

Love to see a 620r or Ariel AtOm 4 vs the M4

Wow, I'm genuinely surprised. I thought the 360R would kill the Bimmer. I know which one I'd pick for auto crossing though!!

@RobManser77

2 жыл бұрын

Or track driving!!!

Holy sh$t - I was expecting the Caterham to be quicker, or a match at worst. That M3 is mind blowing..!!

@Saif0412

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah, very impressed with the M3

Actually, this is exactly the comparison I have been interested in. I built my GBS Zero (same as the Caterham, just a different company) and I always thought the power-to-weight would slay other cars on the road but I continually find myself beaten from the lights by modern hot hatches. Biggest problem for me is the ancient gearbox I have (from a Ford Sierra) BUT modern cars are so clever with their dynamics these days, that PW ratio is much less significant.

@Garf2O

10 ай бұрын

Yeah the issue is always how efficient the car runs, usually what people do to get around that is putting modern drivetrains into older lighter cars, ive been to a track day recently where somebody had a factory 5 shelby cobra replica with a 5.0l coyote V8 out of a 2016 mustang GT, stock engine, but man that thing absolutely flew when they got in it imao.

Be nice to see this with the Stig driving the 7!!!

If you wanted part 2 you can compare a model 3 with brakes and cooling vs the M3 on 1 hot lap...

So, an M3 or a caterham, trailer and focus ST estate (or Leon, golf, corolla - your choice). We could debate that all day every day until both are outlawed😥

That's a decent two car garage. M3 as a fun family daily and the Caterham for enthusiastic track days 👌 (Although the M3 is trackable but oh well 🤷‍♂️)

What was the BMW designer smoking? That front end is hideous. Caterham is a real track car and I love them

Nice BMW ad

@michaelarchangel1163

2 жыл бұрын

Yes, the conciliatory nods at the video's conclusion towards the more powerful Caterham offerings seemed more like a denial of impending comps for a BMW champagne bash.

Would be interesting to see 420 and a 620 with aero screen and sticky tyres compete with the XDrive on track

That power to weight ratio...does that include the driver? The driver weight affects the ratio much more in a light vehicle! And...one has to understand that a turbo charged engine releases a lot more energy compared to a n.a. engine compared to their top effects...

I am a M3 fanboy but this wasn’t a fair comparison. You should have compared the top-of-the-line M3 with the 620R

Cross between William Shatner & Frank Sinatra.

Hmm, choosing a 360 as opposed to 420 or 620 which are both still tens of thousands of Pounds cheaper than the Beamer. I guess BMW has by far the greater advertising budget...

One thing kinda bugs me. And I think it is the reason the Caterham lost. You are only comparing the PEAK power to weight. But what wins races is the whole powerband/ curve to weight ratio through the transmission! :)

I can confirm that round oulton park, a 420R and lightly modified F80 M3 are all but the same pace.

I would have used a set of Avon ZZRs for the Seven

@LeeJF1

2 жыл бұрын

Especially if it was the softer compound race R's 🚀

Still love the Caterham best. So exciting!

great piece....steve delivers once more

The track also suits the M3 way more. Quite long straights not many sharp corners. On another track it would look totally different.

@davideyres955

Жыл бұрын

Yep with a screen and that engine it’s probably going to top out at 120, I struggled to get more than 130 out of my VHPD 193 bhp 7 where as I suspect the BMW had quite the legs on the straights.

Pointless comparison... 420r / 620r S3 chassis with aero screen would destroy the m3.. On track... Watch the utube video of battle between 500r caterham and porsche 996 GT2 on the 'ring' .. Maybe this video is set up to show the BMW in a better light

The Power of Traction

Which puts a bigger smile on your face at speeds that won’t cost you your licence. So many over assisted panzer cars rob you of any driving pleasure ultimately just designed for autobahn and traffic jam comfort.

Not sure if the driver has a proper “racing background” but I think the Caterham was not driven well. The M3 is a street car and it can almost drives its self. Power-weight ratio is king. This is physics. The caterham can break much better, accelerates faster and corner faster.

Cooles Video, aber ja, der Vergleich auf so einem Kurs hinkt etwas und der 180PS Seven ist auf den Geraden aufgrund der Aerodynamik zu langsam. Ich habe selbst einen Caterham, leider nur mit 130PS, aber würde diesen jederzeit dem M3 vorziehen. Was man auch immer wieder vergisst: ein Seven erfordert echt fahrerisches Können, weil jeder Fehler sofort bestraft wird! Bei dem neumodischen Krams bleibt man einfach auf dem Pinsel, die Elektronik regelt das dann schon :D das macht n riesen Unterschied aus, aber ratet mal, was mehr Spass macht. So direkt und ungefiltert man den Fahrspass im Seven erlebt, kann man jeden anderen Sportwagen dagegen wegwerfen. Bei nem engeren Kurs mit mehr Kurven und zick Zack würde der BMW selbst gegen den kleinen Seven im Video keine Chance haben.

Caterham is a far better car as far as I am concerned. It would not matter how fast or slow it was, its how you feel driving it thats important. I have driven Caterhams and love the feeling you get.

I would choose the Caterham due to more driver imput. I like the four cylinder and the stick shift. I'm not a fan of auto trans a=with paddle shift.Had one in a new Camaro and sold it. No fun.

This is an interesting comparison, but not the right conclusion. Power to weight is still (almost everything). By picking the 360, when you add a 70kg driver, you effectively bring down its power to weight ratio to match that of the M3 - and with all the tech and gizmos the M3 has, there was always going to be 1 winner. I bet the result would have been different with the 420

To be fair, in Caterham’s range the 360R has about the same position as the 330i in BMW’s 3 series range…..

It would be really interesting to see something like an E46 M3 against current gen. It was the first fairly powerful M3, but obviously would be way behind the current gen on lap time….. but by how much?

Very odd match up. I have owned most models of Caterham and now own the 620r. Why didnt you put that up against the bmw 😢. Totally different car.

Did someone forget to mic the BMW up for the split screen :p

Comparing power to weight ratio only makes sense when it includes ALL weight 😉 Due to the low weight the power to weight ratio of a Caterham changes significantly to the worse when a driver of - let‘s say - 80kg sits in it…weight raises to 640kg and voilà…power to weight ratio of only 281bhp… Having the same driver in the M3 has a much smaller influence…just because it’s so heavy in the first place. I would go with the Caterham any day, but that’s something mostly people that actually drove one will understand 😉

The reason why you did this comparison and why so many people watched it, like myself, was : how is a super simple concept of last millennium doing against today's state of the art? Well it did go slower by a bit, but maybe you weren't asking the right question. How much fast/pound sterling...

Aerodynamics

Well, you have chosen a mid-high speed track here. The caterham turns into a brick aerodynamically much after 100mph. Most UK tracks are old school - tight, windy, narrow with lot's of braking zones. The Seven is at home here. Plus Caterham is expensive, I have an MK RX5 - a Seven kit car - pumping out 480bhp per tonne and built it new for £18k. Would destroy the M3, as well as most cars round anywhere.

Power to weight is only a useful comparison up to about 60 mph, above that it's power to drag that matters most, and the M3 would annihilate the Caterham on that metric (hence it's real top speed probably being double the Caterham).

You can tell the M3 X is much faster and a better daily car. But I'm pretty sure the Caterham is more fun. Good comparo.

For the price of the m3, you could have a m340i and a Caterham, just saying 😏

@djgtuk2012

2 жыл бұрын

True but no one is making the choice between a middle range caterham and a new M3. With 100k there are endless options... 45- 50k on a fancy spec 420r would leave enough change for a nice cayman and an E92 M3!

Put the M3 up against the 620r , then see if it's quicker !.

How about Shelby Cobra vs the BMW

Looks more fun in seven

I saw someone post a comment on a BMW video saying "BMW don't make the ultimate driving machine any longer" ye ok.

The 620 r on the sv chassis would have the bmw's pants down for less money and would be way more fun. It would also be worth more than the M3 after a couple years of ownership 😂

The 7 can turn laps all day long. Less use of everything, tires, brakes, fuel, less heat generated under hood, etc. These big heavy cars are like taking prescription drugs to counteract the prescription drugs that you're taking. Vicious circle. K.I.S.S. BMW left me years ago.

But it take all that technology bs to keep up with the 360 R

Stev-o take the brand new 420 CUP and see what happen...

Either disconnect drive aids on the M3 either call the 620. Really unfair!

Shame they didn't use a 620

Something is wrong with that catheram, there is no way an m3 can be faster on a lap time, despite being much slower in the straights

Caterham for LIFE ❤️

Put some zzr tyres on a 420R then rerun the test.

A £100k 503bhp twin turbo M3 vs the 180bhp 360r is really not a fair match. A 420r would have been fairer and a 620r would have shown it a clean pair of heels. ;-)

The BMW is a faster car, when it works. How long will it work? The simplicity of the seven is one of its principle virtues. The ability of the BMW to take three people to the airport is it's principle advantage over the Caterham.

Why donde you get someone who actually can drive?

I think this new M3 is gorgeous! My problem with it is the weight, after I drove, I gave up on changing my old M3 for it!

@stu4181

2 жыл бұрын

I can’t see why you wouldn’t buy a nearly new m5 and get the v8 twin turbo instead of the S6

@TheEryk03

2 жыл бұрын

It looks disgusting from the front

@Kelveron

2 жыл бұрын

Fully agree. I also like the looks (unlike many who constantly moan about the grille, I think it makes the car look purposeful and sporty), but over 1800kg for an M3? Even allowing for the AWD hardware, that's way too much and more than the the base 7 series! That said, the car's chassis does a good job of making the car not feel as heavy as it is.

if you do a 10 laps shootout, i am sure the m3 will fall apart.

Good video. The BMW will only last 50k miles.

@roadreg1820

2 жыл бұрын

My one lasted 200,000 and is still going. Where you getting that from? 🤣

Turn the driver aids off and see what happens.

Now try that with an r500, 620s or 620r for a real test. Bit unfair putting a 100k m3 comp with 4wd and a 8sp gearbox from nasa against a low power level caterham with a gearbox from the steam age 🤷‍♂️

@davidlloyd-cx3er

4 ай бұрын

Pointless test should have used 620r

now do 30 laps The M3 would of killed it's tyre and drained the tank while the 7 just carrys on

i guess the 7 will do this again and again while the bmw will be having tyres and breaks over and over again

420r be a better and closer race

Caterham is have the prices