I think hearing the cutting of the throat instead of hearing Helena scream was a lot better

One of my biggest critiques of HoTD is they never let their characters make intentional acts. Aemon unintentionally Lucerys, Daemon sending B&C after Aemon (lol) and only implying Aegon's son, Alicent not actively plotting to usurp the throne, etc. Super frustrating since there is plausible deniability for all these events.

@jessjess23brooks89

10 күн бұрын

It's like they are afraid to pick specific paths. But it's theirs to pick. I would be having a field day in the writer's room.

@OcarinaSapphr-

10 күн бұрын

And one occasion where the show _could_ have used that 'plausible deniability', creatively - with the death of Joffrey Lonmouth in the wedding tourney, they chose not to- it felt like an uncomfortable callback to late-stage GoT, where stuff had next to no connection or impact to or on earlier scenes, let alone previous seasons' development - as if just time-skipping past all the drama means there's no reaction to it, or trauma from it -- It was genuinely a baffling choice to me...

@GlenDivo

10 күн бұрын

I actually like that they are doing it this way. F&B is about what is written after the tragedies have happened years later and we have a version of the story that I think tells us more about how we should read F&B as unreliable rather than hold it up as the standard for HotD's depictions. We know objectively that certain things happen but the colour of it is different and it makes us ask ourselves, who is right in the end which is the point.

@LaurenLumsden-mx4hu

10 күн бұрын

@@jessjess23brooks89 that’s what I said. And I think they’re doing this to create Grey characters but that’s not what a grey character is lol

@Umcarasemvideo

6 күн бұрын

@@GlenDivo Look man, i'm sorry but people do stuff. Sometimes things get out of hand and do'nt go to plan. If every now and again characters didn't take decisive action and things play out that way it's ok but when it's every fucking time it gets old. Having Aemond kill Luce because he can't trully control a dragon and then in response Daemon orders the death of Jahaerys, of vice versa, is much more interesting because then people are doing things in response to what happens arround them. It feels like they are real people reacting to the world. This is just pathetic because every single person is an indecisive idioti and then everything magically goes the worst way possible.

Everything is softer in the series compared to the book. Like many people said I don't miss the gore in the blood and cheese scene, but the tension and emotion to it all is missing. Alicent is certainly missing as she's on a joy ride with Cole. They are making the blacks look better atm as well, softening their blows.

@manvirshergill1739

10 күн бұрын

Tbh I don't mind Alicent not being involved in the show version, I already like the route they are going with her. it's understable why Alicent is fucking Criston., look at how her life has been since she was a teen, forced to marry someone half her age, forced to make heirs while doing her duty, making sacrifices... but now slowly losing her power over Aegon, she's latching on to Cole for control but at the same time fulfilling her needs and certain desires that she never fulfilled unlike Rhaenrya but again it makes her feel shameful, and sinful... yes she is being hypocritical but she's definitely not without her own complexities. Olivia Cooke's performance is really good. character and don't forget Daemon is definitely making team black seem more villianous this episode but i do agree as a whole blood and cheese was definitely better in the book, more darker, more haunting and you couldn't help but feel dread when reading it and your heart breaking for Helaena when she had to make that choice, Honestly it's about my only issue in an otherwise good first episode.

@jessjess23brooks89

10 күн бұрын

​@@manvirshergill1739I don't mind Alicent shaboinking Cole. Good for her, but obviously she's gonna be dealing with all that sweet hypocrisy and scrubbing her skin off lol. I wish she could have chosen anyone else to shaboink, since Cole is a nasty little dude, but slim pickings in the Red Keep during wartime. However, we didn't need that shaboinking at the end of THAT scene. It cheapens it. This isn't Alicent's moment. It's Haelena's. Even if Alicent was gagged in the corner, the moment is still Haelena's and I feel like they stole that from her.

One of the most baffling things I perceived about the show is that they avoid at all costs to portray Daemond Targaryen as pure evil. In the first season, writers were much more clear about his psyche, and his violent, vengeful nature (he killed his wife just to get remarried). However, in the second season, they refused at all to have him murdering a child. They made it look like he was targeting and adult and the child was murdered not because of him, but because of third parties and circumstances and whatnot. Girl, bye. The show was interesting when it had nuanced characters, when good and evil were in both factions, the blacks and the greens. The second season, however, just started wanting us to simp the blacks at all cost. In one episode, they have already ruined both Daemon (no longer evil) and Alicent (no longer pious). What an awful bang to start.

@coldhands2802

10 күн бұрын

They been simpin for blqs since day 1

I think what ruined it for me is Helaena’s muted reaction to just having witnessed her son be murdered. Then followed by her walking in on Alicent and Criston having sexy time for “comic relief” purposes also really just ruins the tension

I think the writers of the show declawed the characters in an effort to make them “grey characters”without actually understanding what grey characters are.

I think the best word to use for what is happening with HOTD vs Fire & Blood is that the show runner is DILUTING key events that if told with more conviction will sway opinions to either side. We needed more of an emotional response to such a heinous act

Completely ruined it. It's not even about the gruesomeness that makes blood and cheese impactful in the book but the dynamics and that little bit of dialogue that makes it such a psychological horror for Alicent and Helena. The blood and cheese in the GOT lore video had more impact tbh.

Dude they absolutely butchered this iconic moment (pun intended). I mean why tf did they have Helena not even react or scream like that? And also I despise the fact that Mysaria & her spy network is already dismantled & apparently Daemon has no influence left in the City Watch in the show which is infuriating bc it was his connection to Mysaria & the City Watch that helps him first find Blood & Cheese to get a “son for a son” & then later the City Watch helps Daemon & Rhaenerya take Kings Landing from the Greens. It seems like they totally have done away with that epic plot point in the show and it’s like they’re trying to take power away from Daemon & make him solely reliant on the women in the show which is really annoying. Not bc they’re women but bc it takes away from Daemons character & the fact that he’s such an essential player in the Dance & in the books he didn’t need permission or sole reliance on Mysaria & also his word was respected by everyone in the Black faction. Plus Mysaria already being taken out of the game is such a waste bc she’s like the Varys to Larys who’s the Littlefinger of this time period. This was a tame & lame ass premiere and really killed a lot of the hype for the remainder of the season. Also Alicent not being there was a terrible decision bc seeing that & having her witness such a despicable act (not just hearing about it) would really light a fire in her & let her become her “all bets are off” character like she is in the books. Yes she didn’t initially want war in the books either but she only wanted to take the peace offering so far. I just can’t believe how bad they botched this moment (and episode) after last season was so amazing & stuck so close to Fire & Blood (until episode 9 which sucked). Also Alyn looks nothing like he should. I’m not talking about him being black but he looks nothing like Laenor & is way too old. This just doesn’t look anything like the Alyn Velaryon we know from the books.

@RealTalkOrWalk

10 күн бұрын

Also the biggest problem about what they’ve done with Daemon in the show was the fact that they didn’t even give him the title of Protector of the Realm like he was in the books. That totally takes away all of his power in the show & completely neuters him. He has to get permission from Rhaenerya for any act but in the books, as Protector of the Realm, he has control of her armies (as he absolutely should since she’s just “a young girl and has no knowledge of war”) but this show even though it’s overall been great, it’s still woke but the only difference is a lot of the “yasss queen” is based off the source material that wasn’t so that’s why they’ve gotten away with it, but the more they neuter Daemon, the more damage they’ll do to their enormous potential imo.

@internettroll1344

10 күн бұрын

​@@RealTalkOrWalkcalm down nerd

Blood and Cheese in the show was underwhelming, they even took out Halaena offering her own life. Compare this scene to GOT s2 e 01 with Joffrey ordering Roberts bastards death. The baby in Little Finger's brothel is the first to die. They did not show it but the mother's scream sold the gruesomeness. When Ramsey fed his stepmother and brother to his dogs, you felt the gruesomeness through Wilda's scream even though we did not see the visuals. Even the animated retelling of The Dance by Shireen sells this much better with he ending showing Halaena crouched on the floor clutching her child and she screams while we only see the child's legs. That is what the show should've done instead of having her being calm and then announce the news of her son's death as if she is announcing the arrival of Daeron.

I agree completely! Also with all the other changes you mentioned. All these emotional impacts could have hit way harder but it seems like the want to sand down the sharpest edges.

I do not mind most of the changes. I don't care about Alicent not being there, cause she and Criston will most likely carry that guilt for the rest of their lives. I also don't mind not seeing Jaehaerys' death. Just hearing the sawing is just as gruesome and lets your imagination fill in the rest. What I do mind is not having Maelor there. The choice between Maelor and Jaehaerys was written so well in F&B and was also the perfect reason for Helaena to lose her mind. Imagine picking one son to die, only for the other one to be killed. Instead, in the show, Helaena has to say which of her twins is a boy. It has not the same effect

@TheGreaseGoblins

6 күн бұрын

I definitely agree with u on certain stuff. Like I said in the video we don’t need to see a child die. That should be off screen similar to like shireen dying u only hear it and see the reaction. I agree Maelor not being there hurt it. I just think bc of the nature of the death u need some kind of reaction to it to make the scene. Which Helaena just isn’t in the show she is a character that is not prone to reacting to things like for instance Alicent would be. I get the guilt thing for the two, but I think that hurts the actual impact the audience feels as Alicent is one of the two main characters being horrifed by the scene unfolding.

I was about to rate this episode very lowly due to the scene. Then I stopped myself and realized I was falling into the same trap I have accused book readers of falling into. Which is that we negatively review a show strictly because it did things differently than the book. So then I looked at it objectively and it was okay enough for me to give the episode an 8/10. So for the show itself, it was well done. My only knock against it in totality was the lack of any sign of guards outside the rooms or on the floor anywhere. One other thing. Speaking as a writer who is in the process of having my own works on screen. They seemingly changed it mainly due to either the directors or the discomfort of the actors involved. Now THAT I am not a fan of. They can't behave like horror movies don't exist. Worse stuff happens in those shows. So I instantly thought, if anything in my story is going to be altered just for the sake of the actors, & I have any power, I would rather swap them out for AI rather than change my story. AI tools have gotten to a stage now where they can be credible replacement.

@jessjess23brooks89

10 күн бұрын

I agree. I was, and I'm a little ashamed to admit it, sharply fucking livid as soon as the episode wrapped. But I calmed down after seeing my husband's expression lol. I rewatched the episode with fresh eyes and tried to blank out my prior knowledge and it was actually very good. My fear is that I'm gonna have to keep doing that to enjoy the rest of this show. And I don't think even I'm that skillful at dissociating. I think the hardcore fans are freaked out mostly because we left season 1 with full trust that these writers and this showrunner could do this. We wouldn't be put through another season 8. It was in good hands. And this is the first sign of trouble, so we collectively are kind of losing our shit. And to casuals it seems crazy, but they don't understand the sum of the story, the small things that seem silly that are missing but will have a grave impact if not managed. I'm swallowing all my misgivings and going in with blind hope. But if they mess up Rook's Rest, there will be no stifling the fandom. It won't kill their show, but they are gonna have a ton of hate watchers. And that is gonna suck to be a part of all over again.

@diegobromfield

10 күн бұрын

@@jessjess23brooks89 when I heard about why they might have changed it, that was what I disliked the most about it. The scene by itself in a vacuum on the show format is fine. But if they are changing scenes mainly due to the reasons I've heard, that is really dumb. I'm even hearing that had the Red Wedding come out right now in this era, it too would have been watered down to soften the brutal moments. If we continue to go down that path, eventually this story and adaptations like it, will only get worse and worse until people stop caring. Basically if the Red Wedding was done for 2024 with these showrunners instead, Cat would have died offscreen. Talisa wouldn't have been there. Rob's wolf would have run away and Rob probably would have just died by food poisoning or maybe 1 arrow and thats it. Lmao. I just hope that the news going about is just for this scene. And not for future tragic/ horrific events being changed in the future.

@jessjess23brooks89

10 күн бұрын

@@diegobromfield 🤣Robb dies of a brutal tummy ache from Walder's shitty cook. It was all an accident and misunderstanding. Cue the Seinfeld outro.

i first watched it in the show and it was very tense but it really wasnt that sad i think it was mostly due to the lack of reaction of whats happening For example jace reacting to lukes death by breaking down when reporting what he did was so much sadder

@TheGreaseGoblins

10 күн бұрын

Agreed I yhink Alicent is key to that scene she is a main character we have watched grow into the character she is having her react to this first hand would have greatly improved scene alone

Loved the first episode I read the book too. I watched it with my family they thought the scene was brutal and horrifying. Seems like it was just a disappointment for book readers who expected an execution.

@TheGreaseGoblins

10 күн бұрын

So for me it has nothing to do with actually seeing a kid beheaded or anything like that and I totally agree it is a book fan the thing for why people like me did not like it. As I said in the video I just think the moment could have been significantly better than what it was if it had made Haelena chose one of her sons, and Alicent being present it changes the entire dynamic of the scene.

Look, was it what I and other book readers wanted? No. But, non-book readers (aka most of the viewership) did largely find it a very impactful moment.

@TheGreaseGoblins

8 күн бұрын

Agreed, that is why my opinon is that it was solid good enough, but could have been much better a lot of room for improvment!

I’ve got a lot of shit in comments for wanting it to be more similar to the books lol. I just think not having Helaena make that soul crushing choice isn’t as interesting.

My issue was that it was buikt up to be like the Red Wedding but then they also diluted the moment so much. Like it should have had longer build up and tension like the Red Wedding. It wouldn't be exactly the same if course, for several reasons but I do wonder if it would have been more impactful.if they let it draw out more. Not the actual scene, but the knowledge of something major happening and the Greens are unaware and going on like normal.

They definitely screwed the Blood & Cheese scene. First Daemon still had influence in Kings Landing & the white worm still had her network. This was a well planned attack & nothing like the show. Then not having Alicent there was a mistake cause that event is what makes both Helena & Alicent mentally start to go downhill. Also Daemon is actually a really good strategist in the books & as of now the show makes him look just impulsive & evil. Will see how this develops but I hope they don’t get too far from the book

I have a theory that Jaehara will take Maelor's book story somehow.

im mostly team black but i wanted to be torn. i want to root for both side , i want to be conflicted about who i should support. but this just seems like the creators wanted us to root for the blacks?. idk. i miss the greyness. thats what made GOT great. GoT’s spoils of war s07e04 was so great because i root for Dany but im worried about Jaime too. i want that feeling when the big war comes. sadly so far they cant pull that off

The scene reminded me of GOT season 7 beyond the wall when the nightking kills Viserion and Daenerys doesn't even care

I agree - the way they are fleshing out the novella, so far, is not impressing me. It's not a crap show or anything, but they are making things a lot different. Alicent is just a sad sack in a world of men - not a character with her own agency, the way she seems to be in the story. The excuse for the changes in season-1 was: 'the maesters wrote the story, and they are anti-Targaryen.' Okay, but they painted a picture of Daemon to be less petulant than he seems in the show. So, were the maesters anti-women-in-power? Or anti-Targaryen? Which one? The whole 'maester conspiracy' theory is just that: a conspiracy theory. To be sure, there was probably a small faction of maesters who were anti-Targ. But clearly not all the maesters were in on this conspiracy, based on (spoiler) the maester warning Daemon later in the story. Idk - I think every change, great and small, does not work to the benefit of the story. Why change the Blood and Cheese scene? It's way more interesting and maddening in the original novella. It's not bad - there's a creeping feeling of dread, for sure, but I don't like the change they made. It was done better in the story.

Is the intro not playing for anyone else?

I didn't like it for 2 reasons, 1- the assassins were basic I don't know if they are like that in the book but they wasn't compelling. 2- Why they didn't just went room by room killing everyone and single handily end the war like the lanisters did in the blood wedding? Weak, the show gets one more chance with me and I'm dropping it, saving myself from the disappointment.

@TheGreaseGoblins

9 күн бұрын

Yeah in the book it was more planned out and they couldn’t just walk where ever. It was a calculated assasination as they used Maegor’s passages and took Alicent hostage in her room bc Haelena took her kids to visit her every night at a certain times it isn’t clumsy and lucky like in the show

HOTD is a commercial product that’s going to be viewed by millions of people. Ofcourse they watered down the sadism

@AtkinsCee

9 күн бұрын

Can’t use that argument when Game of Thrones was even more commercial and had more gore

@harryadam7679

9 күн бұрын

@@AtkinsCee Game of Thrones did not feature sadistic child decapitation

@radicalz2501

8 күн бұрын

@@harryadam7679 they featured child murder though. Also, it's not that we wanted to see a child be beheaded, it was not having helaena choose who to kill.

@harryadam7679

8 күн бұрын

@@radicalz2501 There’s no sadism inflicted on children in GoT. People don’t really like watching kids get their heads cut off in front of their mothers. Watching something that intense would have chased away a portion of the audience. They made the right move by watering it down

im happy maelor isnt in this show tbh

@made-line7627

5 күн бұрын

How come?

@AniSwiftTVRecaps

5 күн бұрын

@@made-line7627 because maelor has the second worse death in the entire franchise right behind elia martel

I thought it was done well personally, but I never thought it would follow the book super closely, that scene is way too gnarly to adapt accurately

Do you think the episode as a whole was underwhelming or just the Blood and Cheese incident?

@TheGreaseGoblins

10 күн бұрын

Blood and Cheese but given it was a huge moment it also kinda makes the episode underwhelming. I was expecting this to be a step up from season in quality and it kinda stayed around the same in terms of my rating if the episode

So they watered it down? You know for how pro green the show is they should have gone into more detail in this scene in show if they wanna make the story "grey" not black(white) and green(black)

I liked the blood and cheese scene but the buildup to it I didn't like. cheese seemed like an idiot.

The absolutely butchered the Blood and Cheese story.

Blood and Cheese were paid for a verified murder, not for a feat of sadism that exponentially increases risk without directly contributing to the tangible results of the assignment.

@hclw3589

10 күн бұрын

The sadism came with them being in character pieces of shit.