I can't comprehend how anyone would not be ABSOLUTELY impressed by what was achived with Headless Cross. It combines the best elements of the Ozzy and Dio eras. Listen to Black Moon as an example. Martin's performance on HC is divine. He dethrones Dio essentially. Compositionally this is one of the best heavy metal albums of the 80s, going against the best of them.

@iancocks9408

Ай бұрын

I thought the eternal idol was better. And black moon originally was a b side from that album.

I think a Cross Purposes is the most varied musical Sabbath album since S.B.S. in 73 love it and Bobby Rondenelli's drumming is amazing. A very different but great album.

I'm more on the John side on cross purposes I prefer the first three albums of Tony Martín... The production is too 90s for me, but still like every black Sabbath. Love your Sabbath podcast into the void ...I can listen too Sabbath debates, reviews ...all day...keep it going.

Love the Sabbath conversation.❤ Everybody is well spoken and has some great input and well thought opinions. I think Cross Purposes is a little too long and would be better with another song sequence. I made my own playlist and have taken out Psychophobia and Virtual Death that I think sound too plodding and ”grungy” then replaced them with What’s The Use instead. It flows better this way I think. What’s The Use Cross Of Thorns Back To Eden Immaculate Deception Dying For Love I Witness The Hand That Rocks The.. Cardinal Sin Evil Eye

Cross Purposes is my favorite of the Martin era albums. It has Geezer Butler for one, unlike the others. It's the best produced, and would sound even more awesome if it got a remix like Forbidden. The Hand That Rocks The Cradle is a highlight. So melodic and well arranged.

I love the Martin era. Super glad it's getting the exposure it's getting now. Fans who always liked it, still do. Some who never liked it, might or might not like it now. Regardless, it's a fun era that deserves more attention.

I agree with John on this pretty much. Although I did get the new box set and trying to focus on listening to Cross Purposes more to see if it will finally click with me...

Cross Purposes is my 2nd favorite from the Martin era (Eternal Idol would be my favorite). Psychophobia is my favorite track. I like the more raw guitar sound on this album. I hear a little grunge influence, but it doesn't bother me.

Good news is that Tony Martin himself has said there looks to be plans to release Cross Purposes Live plus “other stuff.” Would be great if there was a box set with other concerts and perhaps the bonus tracks that weren’t available on vinyl this time. The issue of course will be ‘band politics.’☹️

I came in to the Martin era on Cross Curposes too. It was their latest album and I was 21 years old had recently fallen deeply in love with their early catalogue for the first time. And I found Cross Purposes appealing, I liked the name and the cover art, I wanted to like it. But I couldn’t get past the grunge influence, and the songwriting and performances seemed mediocre. I liked a fair amount of grunge but I didn’t want it in my sabbath. Idol, Cross, and Tyr for me. I still don’t like Cross Purposes, and Forbidden only has its moments, even after the remix. But I love any Martin era live material. Top tier singer.

I agree with John McEntee on Cross Purposes.

Darin I couldn’t agree more with your comments about the Tony Martin era. I love it, but it’s a different beast from Ozzy and Dio. However…I think I actually like it more than the Dio era. Never became really enamoured with Dios voice. Love Dehumanizer though.

Excellent points by John. On Headless Cross, Martin sounds like an over the top Dio. On Cross Purposes he sounds like Coverdale.

I'm with McEntee here. I love those first 3 Tony Martin albums but I'm not a fan of Cross Purposes and Forbidden. Tony Martin sounds like he stopped trying on those last two, which makes sense because Iommi was dicking him around with the Dio reunion and the soon to come Ozzy reunion.

Headless cross and Tyr straight up melodic heavy metal almost power metal

Cross purposes does sound grunge with some 70sish reprises to earlier years but I loved dehumizer with dio better.

I couldn’t get into Cross Purposes. Just didn’t do a thing for me. Will try again .

Fuck yea

FYI Tony and Geezer did not speak for 3 years after the CP tour because Geezer felt Tony wanted a lighter Rainbowish sound instead of what Sabbath was known for...he basically sided with TM instead of Geezer.

By 94 iommi was using laney amps again and he was using marshall on hc and tyr and yes there's echo it's an 80s thing

I agree

@Vincent-The-Attorney

Ай бұрын

This is a nearly two hour video, you agree with every point made in the whole god damn thing??

It’s funny because I love the Tony Martin albums, yet my least favourite would be The Eternal Idol. It always sounded a bit too 80s for me. Hoping I will in the future though

What's going on john

I like the Tony Martin version of Eternal Idol, but I LOOOOOVE the Ray Guillen version. Blessed with one of the greatest voices in rock/metal history, too bad Ray was such a selfish prick, or he probably would have lived a lot longer.

John has the classic metal guy view on Grunge from that era. There is a lot of amazing grunge music. I understand why he feels the way he does about Cross Purposes, but do not agree with his opinions. You should get Martin Popoff on the show. He referred to these albums as “crappy”. The nerve😅

Love the Martin Era material overall but Forbidden was weak….

The question I ask myself sometimes Darin, is would I like these albums the way I do if they weren’t Black Sabbath albums. I definitely tried harder to get into them because they are. I would say initially, the sound wasn’t what I was looking for. I just wanted to enjoy all eras of the band. It is a confusing era for Sabbath fans. It is 20+ years since the beginning I guess. To replicate the magic of the first 2 eras might just be too much to ask, I don’t really know.

@LairoftheAlchemist

Ай бұрын

It’s funny you mention this because Darin and I have had this exact conversation after we made the video, asking ourselves. “Do we like this more just because it’s Black Sabbath”. And I guess there is some truth to that, but I would say that, although it’s very different from the earlier stuff, it’s still retains some elements of Black Sabbath just because Tony Iommi is involved and we’re both such big fans of him that makes these albums, more enjoyable than maybe if they were done by some random Modern band

@darinmccloskey9906

Ай бұрын

I think it's the Iommi factor that carries a lot of weight. I would still like it, for what it is, but it definitely wouldnt carry the same amount of importance. Then again, maybe it being completely independent from Black Sabbath would make it more palatable. In the end, I do enjoy the music on the Martin albums....the only thing I grapple with is its association with the Black Sabbath legacy. Hopefully, that makes sense, haha. Cheers!

@thomasmandeno2776

Ай бұрын

Yeap true. Not sure I would’ve ever known about them if it wasn’t Black Sabbath, as the sound was a bit different. Though listening to this box set, I’m enjoying it more and more and I hear that Iommi guitar tone coming through. Darin talked about god-like, and Iommi is truely that

@thomasmandeno2776

Ай бұрын

Yeap sure does Darin. It confuses me at times too. What I do love is that I have 3 different eras to choose from. My first love will always be Ozzy, but honestly I’m enjoying the era more and more and now see it as part of Black Sabbath. Loving the Forbidden remix. Ps. I woke up this morning disappointed that I had already watched the show. I could listen to you guys talk about Sabbath all day lol

I don't understand this John McEntee guy, like him I absolutely love Born Again, and listen to it a lot, but unlike him I think Cross Purposes is the best Tony Martin album and it's easily the "heaviest" of the Martin albums. How he can say the other 4 are heavier is beyond me. Really? Tyr is heavier than Cross Purposes??

@thomasmandeno2776

Ай бұрын

I think he’s just super sensitive about the grunge thing

@MichaelZanette

Ай бұрын

@@thomasmandeno2776 yeah I don't begrudge his opinion,I'm just surprised that we could be on the same page for Born Again, but he doesn't get or like Cross Purposes. For years that was literally the only Martin album I would even listen to 😂. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions

@LairoftheAlchemist

Ай бұрын

The more I talk with people about music the more I realize how much of an impact "when" you hear an album is, where you are at that time in your life musically etc. I know for myself that has affected how I like or dislike certain albums.

@MichaelZanette

Ай бұрын

@@LairoftheAlchemist I agree totally. I was in high school in the 80s when I first discovered Sabbath. I actually knew Ozzy as a solo artist BEFORE knowing he was the lead singer of Black Sabbath. Once I found out, I went and listened to the albums basically in order and became a huge fan of the original lineup. I then got into the Dio era as well and the lone Gillan album. Tony Martin I could never listen to at first. Someone who was a huge Sabbath fan told me to avoid those albums as they were "bad" so my opinion was skewed from the beginning. I basically ignored those albums until hearing that Dehumanizer was coming out with Dio back in the band. Once that happened I gave Cross Purposes a chance since I knew Geezer was also still in the band for that album, and guess what, I actually liked it! Still took me a long while to finally appreciate the earlier Martin stuff though, and it wasn't until the Anno Domini box set that I picked up where I really enjoy those albums now

I'll admit I haven't heard much of the Martin-era, but I wanna check it out.. "Headless CROSS".. "CROSS Purposes".. man I get fuckin confused on which one they're talking about a lot at any given time.. maybe that's a problem with this era of the band

@iancocks9408

Ай бұрын

It can also be that a lot of the songs on the first 3 Martin albums from 1987 on sound similar. And some of the songs from 94-95 too.

Ive done my best to wipe the Tony Martin era from my memory, l bought each of these albums as they csme out in good faith hoping for the best but l just couldn't get past the vocals which imo didn't suit the band, the sound was to clinical/ sterile & the music was out of step with what was going on at the time & just didn't get me where l live, Sabbath is my all time favourite band but this era was a severe let down for me, as was the album 13 for that matter, im just glad Dio came back (briefly) for Dehumaniser, that album came out of the blue during the 90's period with full on Classic Sabbath aggression, Sabbath Marque lll back together again all guns blazing back with avengence l couldnt be more happy with the lineup or the album, then what happened? back to mediocrity with dumbed down lyrics & riffs with Cross Purposes which had nowhere near the success Dehumaniser had & meanwhile Dio comes out with the balltearer Strange Highways , Sabbath's magic had disappeared & hit the wall hard with theven more feeble & totally embarrassing Forbidden.

Imo I think the albums with Tony Martin sound dated nowadays. Also the way he sings is like a opera singer ( get a little nervous ), it is not Dio or Ozzy with their dark and powerful voice, the bass player is mediocre. Wish Geezer was there. Cozy is top. But when you a great Tony Martin fan enjoy. I only have the box because I am a completist.

@jimmycampbell78

9 күн бұрын

Geezer Butler plays on Cross Purposes (the only Tony Martin album he plays on).