Gahhh this is such a good analysis!!! I didn't know about the concept of death of the audience, but it definitely fills in some very important gaps when talking about the core themes of orv!!!

@stubbornjerk

2 ай бұрын

yeah!! it kinda blew my mind as i kept reading and immediately knew i was gonna have to give it a proper analysis later on. i guess i just didnt know how spot on these sources were gonna be until those epilogues hit 😭

As a graphic designer a talk about semiotic and ORV sound like heaven ❤

@stubbornjerk

Ай бұрын

SDJHFSD i actually tried to keep the talk as general as possible. ive been deep in academic texts for a majority of writing for this video so sticking to layman's terms to try and hammer in that parts of orv that have different intent vs its meaning as a general text was a little bit of a struggle

I have been waiting for a video like this for so long! ORV is perfect for discussions like this and you brought a perspective that was fresh and really solidified some of the perceptions that I had but couldn't name. When you talked about death of the audience and how probability is used to keep the scenario in check, and by extension Kim Dokja, I can't help but see it as another way for the author to break that fourth wall, to check in with the audience and kind of acknowledge those narrative devices they use (like deus ex machina) Like if the author wants to use something convenient to further the plot, it takes a cost from the audience. We have to buy into it. We have to think it's probable and to use that concept as a mechanic in the story, its just so good. When you talk about Dokja's fanon interpretation of YJH versus the intent of YJH by the author to teach Dokja, it's just so eye-opening. I always saw HSY writing TWSA as making something winding and intriguing enough that Dokja would keep at it, allowing him to use some of the determination of YJH to get through the trials of life, but I see it's so much more than that. But Dokja reads passively and doesn't apply any of these skills to his life. I think about that train ride with Sangah so much, that initial failure to have a genuine interaction to communicate and later on when you realize she's been tip toeing around wanting to reach out, it's like. Dokja used TWSA to survive but also as a crutch. Like you said, its saving him but also killing him. When you connected Dokja's reading as quantum superposition it was like a light went off in my brain! Like of course! Him changing YJH just by being there is obvious, but everyone else leveling up faster when he's not BECAUSE he's not is just ughslakdjf it's good! I just thought it was a funny little aside maybe some angst fuel to feed Dokja's insecurities, but I never put it together that it was his job to witness, and if it takes place outside of his view it both happens and doesn't happen. With ORV, I've always felt that we could spend more time with the characters with Dokja interacting with everyone but with this interpretation I can see how that could be intentional that we don't. It's the snow between the lines we read. The unobservable facts that we just understand happens. When you mentioned the paradoxical nature of ORV, I'm reminded of the square circle example in the novel. "It's not the issue with understanding it, but rather, accepting it." We can accept the paradox of HSY writing the novel even though she learned of it bc she was in the novel because of the power of stories, of language and communication. One of the first things I learned when studying linguistics is the infinity of language and how you can write things beyond imagination. Normally a paradox would be frustrating, but somehow in ORV it's balanced so well. Great video!!

@stubbornjerk

Ай бұрын

thank you! and thank you for watching and commenting through on points i made. i'm glad for your comment bc your input and comments do kind of brush up on why i wanted to make this video to begin with. i hop you don't take this negatively, i don't mean anything by it beyond just kind of getitng at what i wanted to put out there. a lot of the analyses i found on orv like to focus on dokja, which would make sense because dokja is literally in the title of the novel, and he IS the narrative character. his development through out the novel and his bond with the other characters makes it so it's difficult to have a discussion about any of the other characters without bringing him up at least once. he's both part of and haunting the narrative he doomed himself into. but the point of the video was to go beyond his viewpoint. it's in the title, it's why i started the video proper with a discussion on semiotics AND death of the audience because what happens in the text and the overall intent of the text have vastly different meanings. probability, textually, is there to keep dokja from powercreeping most of the star stream's scenarios. but since this is a novel written to make sure WE want dokja to survive, we have to understand that the concept of probability is doing more than just a barrier from powercreep or ruining the flow of a scenario. so from the end of the novel looking back, you can MAYBE reach the conclusion that probability is a narrative device keeping dokja and kimcom from further ruin (either by the star stream or by dokja himself). joonghyuk and twsa, textually, were both made to appeal to a suicidal teenager and that it sets the ball rolling for the apocalypse. but claiming that understanding would then erase sooyoung's love of dokja, joonghyuk, and the solace she finds in the act of writing itself. textually, we know sooyoung is motivated to write twsa for dokja's sake and to finally have a chance to be with the reader whose approval and love she wants. but we also have to understand that sooyoung wrote before knowing dokja, and before knowing joonghyuk. joonghyuk also existed parallel to them, having his own goals and purposes beyond fulfilling sooyoung and dokja's needs and wants. they're all three different characters with varying goals and wants. so it doesn't matter that dokja clings to death of the author when reading twsa or that sooyoung writes only a version of joonghyuk that would induce a death of the audience or that joonghyuk has traits and characteristics that exist wholly separate from sooyoung and dokja's understanding of him. it matters that those things existed, regardless of if they were interpreted by its readers. which kind of leads up to the quantum superposition point, no? whether or not dokja or us (as his fragments) understand or interpret orv the way s&s or sooyoung intended doesn't matter, the same way that their intent doesn't matter to our interpretation of these works. they both exist and don't exist, and any matter of analyzing both won't erase the fact that they do and don't. this reply.... got kind of long. im sorry if this comes off as preachy. i just want to be thorough in really hammering in the point of how orv exists as both a novel dedicated to its readers and as a novel that exists in spite of its readers.

EXCUSE ME, WHY IS THIS NOT POPULAR ToT

So in summary, they will never be happy, the only way for that to happen is if scenarios still exists so KDJ can keep living with all of them an other constellations but that will mean the apocalypse is still there, maybe they could adapt with time, but OD would never be saved and OD is jur a kid who deserves love, why does he have to sacrifice? It's unfair for him and for SP since they will never meet, like, or YooHanKim we know lives a tragic life or JoongDok from the past never gets a chance to live... I hate everything, why can't we becomes the readers? Why does it have to be KDJ? I'll gladly carry that burden and that's what I think would be te best resolutiom. We all are readers and we have to keep the story so KDJ can come back and they all can live together (my copium, let me dream)

Its very to se an analysis about orv and im so happy to find one.

really good work ! :]

I've been waiting for an analysis of ORV to drop since forever omg this is amazing thank youuuu!! ❤❤

Loved the video! It's so hard to find videos analysing ORV here, most of the analysis I've seen is scattered on different social media platforms. I'm very interested in hearing your thought on other themes in the novel, for example about Dokjas core characters, and I really wouldn't mind an even longer video on death of the audience since it's a pretty overlooked concept usually. Again, thank you for the great analysis and I will be checking out the podcast.

@stubbornjerk

2 ай бұрын

thank you so much! i really enjoyed making it (even if my hard drive didnt lol). abt dokja’s core though, i think i stumbled on it when i was trying to figure out why his first four lasted so long and became so important that they basically became channel mods. and it came to a head around the jttw arc and the reveal w ABFD being a teenager that, sun wukong, uriel, ABFD AND plotter!hyuk are all forms of the way dokja is a fan of TWSA. which sounds like a small thing, except that since he loves TWSA, they all are indicative of how he interacts with the scenarios and his company! - sun wukong read jttw over and over just to find himself again, to finally reach an answer that would explain his listlessness - uriel is thrilled by new developments and is an active participant in a lot of narratives by intervening through channel messages kind of like dokja’s comments that ended up affecting TWSA (jang hayoung is the biggest example of this). she also has the strongest bonds with the company’s incarnations, a bond she thrills over, esp her bond w jung heewon. - ABFD loves the power-scaling, not bc he thinks power is thrilling, but bc he himself hasnt felt the thrill of power in a long time. its stated that hes one of the most powerful dragons out there already, but why appear as a 15 year old? to me, ABFD is more indicative of dokja’s teenage self than kim namwoon, which is why han sooyoung ends up choosing him as her sponsor and why dokja seems especially dismissive of him. its also funny that ABFD has this weird fixation on dokja’s junk. thats nothing, i just think hes hilarious. - plotter!hyuk, based just on that extended description in the vid, is a little obvious already. hes looking for His reader out of envy of 1864!hyuk’s found purpose and relationship with his own. this is why he clashes w sun wukong a lot. but while sun wukong is seeking answers to why sanzang sent him away after everything, answers that would give him closure, plotter!hyuk wants connection and a reinvigorated purpose after finishing his own story. he wants a satisfying conclusion. put together, these constellations form a very clear view of a dokja after TWSA, wanting to feel what he felt while reading it the first time, closure after finishing it, control over the story, and a more satisfying conclusion. whether if its of his own making is irrelevant. it kinda blew my mind when i realized it but it seemed pretty obvious once i processed it.

@Xdis-cx5in

2 ай бұрын

@@stubbornjerk Thank you for the long and informative answer, as you said it does seem very obvious as I read about it. I was only able to catch Dokjas parallels with Sun Wukong, as two people who felt like outsiders and were despised in their own society. It's really interesting how jttw arc changes Sun Wukong ending, as he returns to his people renouncing to his titles and Dokja rejects living as a constellation like others in the Star Stream to reach his own conclusion, I'm pretty sure a knowledge of Buddhism would take these parallels further given how important it is to that arc. I also saw the similarities between Dokja and ABFD, since in the demon world arc it is implied that ABFD is also an incredibly lonely existence who longs for companionship and is, in a way, clinging to an image of a 15 year old just like Dokja is shackled to his trauma and experiences from his teenage days. They themselves have changed from what they present as but they cant seem to let go of a persona they present to others until they are put in a situation that requires it. Although this is my interpretation of them. The Uriel and SP parallels I have never catched though, so thank you for having shown them to me, the SP ones especially are very interesting. I really need to reread ORV asap. PS. Really hope you can read the side stories soon, to me they read like new elaborations on ORVs themes

@stubbornjerk

2 ай бұрын

gosh i wish i could read them but 😭 its a challenge of access and budget. i myself only really have access to the fan-tl of the novel thats been passed around (hence the technically incorrect romanizations in the vid, i kept them in there for posterity though) the only extra content ive ever had to read was another fan-tl abt yjh’s bday (made me cry. THATS HIS MOM!!) sigh maybe one day, i guess 😭

@stubbornjerk

2 ай бұрын

also!! i started reading jttw after orv. not really for research, it just seemed like fun. theres a bit in there wrt sun wukong and cultivation and really abt how much hes changed learned and grew for the sake of blending in with and integrating w human society in an active pursuit for immortality. its a cultivation staple. hes still ostracized despite his efforts (a trend that repeats all over the story). its really cool that he has that in common w dokja and that the story that really caught his eye was one that catered to making sure he had it easy throughout the journey. abt ABFD: my take on him really was just that he was a lonely teenager seeking connection, yknow? its why he was so quick to make friends w jang hayoung and took a sorta tsundere shine to dokja the same way dokja took a sorta tsundere shine to joonghyuk. hes pretty much teen!dokja-reading-twsa. its pretty cool that eventually, he learns to be more vulnerable and open while being sooyoung’s sponsor bc god!!! its right there!! theyve been telling us since ep. 73!!!

@Xdis-cx5in

2 ай бұрын

@@stubbornjerk So nice to meet someone else who has fallen into the jttw trap! I read about half of It before ORV, since it's such a big inspiration and staple to chinese literature. Also because I adore any iteration of Sun Wukong. I'm trying go get my hands on the translation published in my language but it's proving to be almost impossible. And yes to everything about ABFD, him trying to act cool in a very teenage way and eventually opening up to Jang Hayoung and relying on Han Sooyoung and the other constellations is so sweet. Glad to know someone else cried because of the Dumplings made by others side story, reading it made me realize just how much I care for Yoo Joonghyuk and his struggles.

love the thoughts omg. i'm also here to ask you for this! 26:09

@stubbornjerk

Ай бұрын

i believe i have! there's the response in the comments, of course, but i also posted this post on tumblr for easier reading/access. www.tumblr.com/stubbornjerk/747079575937433600/as-a-general-post-for-the-additional-analyses hope you enjoy and thank you for commenting!

Wow me encantó la manera que tienes de interpretar orv, también me gustó mucho los conceptos que usaste, un análisis así no se encuentra en todos lados, se nota el esfuerzo que le pusiste, porfa sigue haciendo más vídeos así!!

@stubbornjerk

Ай бұрын

thank you! though, i hope google translate managed to get your entire comment correctly lol. i've been sort of isolated since reading orv so, having the platform to talk about it as much as i wanted was fun. i'm glad people enjoyed my analysis, and that you did as well!

Pretty good 👍

@stubbornjerk

2 ай бұрын

Thanks!