I will say this one other thing. I am not directly saying what tord is doing is entirely wrong. Do i think it is an egregious manipulation of the clock yes. Do I think it is against spirit of the game, probably. However, it is hard to call it directly cheating when it is such a gray area. You can argue certain plays he did were not advancing the board state, or certain plays he made were to slow, along with the compartmentalization of his actions were to long which then would be consider cheating. It reminds me of the sticky stuff scandal in baseball where players were actively cheating and it was known but there was no direct rule against it until there was

@nuggetoftruth865

10 ай бұрын

(EDIT: Clarifying that I don’t necessarily think the judges *should* have penalized Tord, merely that they *could* have ruled either way because he’s walking a fine line. I am not saying the judges 100% made a mistake, there is a lot of interpretation and nuance in the guidelines regarding slow play.) Hey there! I’m an official TCG judge. Just a note, compartmentalizing your actions to fit the recommended time frame can indeed be called as a penalty for abusing the time constraints. Slow play is something that, at the moment, doesn’t really have hard set “rules” as much as general guidelines to consider. If a player takes 30-60 seconds planning out their turn, then blitzes out their game actions at once, the average time per action still turns out fine, so even though they took longer for one action than we want, we consider the game state as a whole. We also do consider whether a player is making moves to advance the gamestate or purely to waste time. In this game, there is just enough ambiguity that you can’t quite say for sure what Tord’s goal is here, but there are certain notable actions that don’t really line up with the gameplay philosophy of his other games. He put his board in a state where he was going down 1-6 in prize cards remaining by the end of the game. One can argue that he just had a bad game, but given the resources he had, it’s very strange he didn’t set up to take at least one KO if he were playing to win. Again, this is very hard to judge because we can’t see into the mind of the player, so we can’t use it as much more than supporting evidence when combined with other factors. What Tord did here could easily have ended up as a warning or DPL, and potentially a time extension to boot, but it’s simply up to the judges to see it, decide, and act on it. It’s one of the toughest things to call as a judge with the current guidelines.

@SmartTCG

10 ай бұрын

Thank you so much for this info! @@nuggetoftruth865

@dennisbernhard3117

10 ай бұрын

It's insane to me this is even a discussion. Everyone knows what he was doing there. Including himself. Maybe he 'played by the rules' but this was just wrong in my opinion. He should have been penalised, no doubt about it.

@s.acollectibles2118

10 ай бұрын

Not saying he's cheating, but clearly titling Tord caught cheating? Seems passive aggressive

@9lbloodnolast873

10 ай бұрын

@@nuggetoftruth865 bs, tord can be seen doing this over multiple games coincidentally without a clear goal for us to see and when he has a win and the opponent does not he's cheating and the organization doesn't have the spine to call it he's been using it as a win con

This is why chess has player clocks, not round clocks.

The saddest part about this whole thing is that its on stream. There are 2 judges sitting there watching the match, doing nothing about Tord's pace of play. I think if there are signs of slow play with judges watching, especially on stream, they should at least take some action. Tell the player to speed up a bit. Give them a time limit on how long their turns can be. Integrate chess clocks; something has to be done.

@yarnovanderfraenen2585

10 ай бұрын

They have 15 sec per action and aslong as hè is playing on time judges can’t do anything

@Blahblah-oo7lk

5 ай бұрын

Judges cannot do much if the average pace of play is around 15 seconds. The rules state that a player has 15 seconds (on average) to make a decision (i.e. search, refinement, ultra ball, promoting a Pokemon after KO, shuffling, etc.) No rule violation, judges' hands are tied.

So he burn the clock just like the winning team does in a NBA game, it might look unfair but the top performers in any sport will take advantage of the rules without breaking them and that’s is the difference between a champion and a loser

@danielbermea7431

Ай бұрын

This a terrible comparison. In pokemon there is practically nothing you can do to interact with them on their own turn. While in basketball you have a multitude of options to make as a defender. Also no hate from this comment I just didn’t find this to be an apt comparison.

I'm not sure how I feel about this. It's playing to your outs like you're supposed to in any game, but it's such a gross way of winning a round. It's hard to fault Tord for wanting the win, but the ends don't really justify the means.

@danielbrunsch4196

10 ай бұрын

Playing to your outs is like thinning your deck and flipping the coins that might let you draw into a solution and not slow play which is specifically against the spirit of the sport and against the rules. Just "a little breaking the rules" is not okay either or strategic. Saying that people should play their outs by using unsportsmanlike behaviour is like saying soccer/football players should injure their enemies to win the game or block goals with their hands (which has totally happened before but is getting red carded immediately, any penalty would have let Alberto win here).

@swingkid9347

10 ай бұрын

@@danielbrunsch4196 No this is an "out", I mean obv. since he literally got out of the loss lol, so it is. He didn´t break any rules, not even "a little" is the point. At least not according to the judges. Don´t get me wrong, I think, giving a warning into a dlp if no change in speed is to be seen, would have been fair. I don´t think ur comparison with football is fair, since playing the clock is literally a strategy in that sports: counter attack, get one goal and then just close down in defense and pass around till the clock runs out. Is it fun? Fuck no, is it legal? sure. The kind of plays u talked about on the other hand, are highly penalized in football for a reason, cause everyone would be doing it otherwise, because it´s technically worth. If it can be abused, it will be abused, such is the competitive nature and I kinda think it´s fair (not honorable nor entertaining) But yeah at the end of the I also think, I´d like to see it penalized stronger and or defined better in general.

Without commenting on the time taken for any individual action: Two things: 1. Players are allowed to take legal game actions. Playing the Lost Vacuum was totally legal as was benching Basics. Judges cant tell a player that theur move was not optimal. All they can judge is whether or not it has advanced the game state. And advanced just means it is not identical to a previous game state. 2. Players can not be made to take short cuts. If he had played one Level Ball, shuffled, and then played another Level Ball, that would have been legal.

We have this kind of issue over in Magic, but the reality is that any competition with a timer is going to have situations where running down the clock is part of the game. Spectators can say what they like about Slow Play but there has to be some acceptable limit, and that limit is always going to be tested and gamed at the top level. Slow Play issues are purely "hate the game, not the player" because they are entirely caused by the combination of the meta and the tournament regulations. p.s. If you doubt me, ask the YuGiOh community what happened when their tournament regulations changed from awarding a tie when time was called to awarding a win to the player with more life points...

@WhyDoBabiesStareAtMe

10 ай бұрын

That last little bit might be a good idea. Awarding the win to whichever player gets the most prize cards in game 2 doesn't sound like a bad at all, and it will keep situations like this from coming up.

@Michael_Raymond

10 ай бұрын

@@WhyDoBabiesStareAtMe The issue is that it completely changes the incentives for playing and just moves the slow-play issues to a different spot. Imagine trying to play any of the many comeback cards when your opponents start slow-playing the instant they have a Prize lead in game 2/3. Or, as happened in YuGiOh, the meta entirely changing because time out becomes a viable option for decks that do small amounts of damage and then stall forever. Pokemon would also have the issue that this rule change punishes single-prize decks like Regigigas because having a VMAX down to 10hp when time is called doesn't matter if they've lost a prize card, even though they're about to take three

@stolatoskc

10 ай бұрын

Pokemon should find a middle ground and firm ruling for this so that players will follow it strictly. There are mill and control decks that dont take prizes so if you made a rule that who has the most Ko’ed pokemon wins then mill/control decks are automatically screwed.

@BlazinBobs1

10 ай бұрын

Any and every TCG should have chess regulated timers. So each player's turn, the timer is going on their side, and once they're done their turn, they press the timer to switch it to the other player's. Many chess tournaments will have faster games at 1 hour per player, 30 minutes (Action Chess), 15 minutes (Quick Chess), or 5 minutes (Speed or Blitz Chess) I'd reckon 15 minutes per player max should be the standard. This would stop this kind of play and cheating. Problem solved. That way, any slow play is penalized and results in a loss. Whether we're doing it by current rules or by prize lead rules.

@Michael_Raymond

10 ай бұрын

@@BlazinBobs1 Luckily they're extremely common in digital implementations of TCGs

Pokémon should have a chess clock type setup where each player has to manage their own time. Problem solved

@leokiralla4449

10 ай бұрын

it would be hard to make work in Pokemon because some decks play much slower naturally than others especially Gardevoir and Lost Zone. Edit: and I think it's good for the game to not have every deck be a hyper aggressive fast deck like Miraidon and fusion Mew

@chiefgaming7692

10 ай бұрын

Wouldn’t work in a best if 3

@nuggetoftruth865

10 ай бұрын

I hear this constantly, and people really don’t understand the plethora of logistical issues this would cause (Context: I am a certified TCG Judge). First, there’s simply the problem of making sure every single table has a functional clock at regionals. Time needs to be set properly at every match, time has to start for everyone at the same point, timers will be knocked over and broken, etc. This has major potential for delays at every round, and those add up a lot over the course of a long tournament. Aside from initial setup, there are other problems that would arise. It’s unclear how the clock should progress when cards like escape rope are played and require opponent interaction during your turn. In addition, requiring yet another thing apart from the game to focus on will cause many judge calls and issues. What happens if a player forgets to hit their timer, or hits it for the other player on accident? How do you know how much time is actually left in those cases? What kinds of penalties need to be applied? The sheer number of judge calls that would result from improper clock handling would also cause major problems for tournament pace and integrity. While current solutions aren’t perfect, having a single shared clock is by far the most efficient way to run these large tournaments, and you can always call a judge over to spectate your match for a bit if you suspect a player is slow playing.

@laitrs1

10 ай бұрын

@@nuggetoftruth865 everyone should carry their own clock just like they carry their decks, mats, dice, and whatever else they carry in their backpacks. Just like a decklist is a must, decks being sleeved is a must, a clock should be a must also.

@zacharyzuniga1599

10 ай бұрын

@@nuggetoftruth865 so how does chess do it? Could also be like magic where if time is called the game still goes on by x turns. As a judge would you call this obvious slow play out?

The biggest problem I see with this, is that those decks who already take more than half the time to finish game 1 and already give you the match win when winning game 1, tend to already have the higher winrates and since you know that games will take so long and game 2 won't finish, you will have to insta scoop when you have a bad start but could still win. So you cannot even play out game 1 because you need to scoop to increase your chances to win the match. Giving these decks an even bigger advantage and it's an extremely frustrating situation to be in as the opponent.

@swingkid9347

10 ай бұрын

same goes for the gardi/lzb player tho. if you loosing game u even more so are pressed to scoop, since you have to go through two more games to get a win. Learning when to scoop is simply part of the pokemon tcg at the moment. Id take interesting and choice heavy decks in a best of three format over best of one and simple fast coin flip decks any day of the week, even though I get you point. But no clue what the solution should be

@SantiagoMarzano

10 ай бұрын

true, omg

@danielbrunsch4196

10 ай бұрын

@@swingkid9347 The key difference is that the slow deck player magically speeds up enough wen they need to. That's what makes this unfair and frustrating because the slowplayer is in complete control of the clock and the opponent cannot do anything against it.

The clock gives and the clock takes away. The clock might be the main reason Tord lost the worlds final recently. Maybe in the past month he decided he could be the one to use the clock to his advantage.

@sdrawkcab190

10 ай бұрын

Tord has been doing this sort of play for a long time. This isn't a new revelation for him.

@osueboy

10 ай бұрын

I think the final was really anticlimatic by ending in turns, why not have a final without time limit...

@sdrawkcab190

10 ай бұрын

@@osueboy It wasn't the first finals that was decided by time. Tournaments have schedules that need to be followed. What if the juniors match ends up taking 3 hours for a best of three and now Sunday doesn't finish until 10pm.

@jeremyarcus-goldberg9543

10 ай бұрын

@@osueboy Without a time limit, players could stretch out their turns as long as they like. Win by basically putting their opponent to sleep. That’s not good for the game or for the audience.

@osueboy

10 ай бұрын

@@jeremyarcus-goldberg9543 im talking about the final... not top8 not top 4

His whole plan was obviously slow play. I'm just getting into the Pokemon TCG, so I don't know the rules that in-depth. That said, I do know most games have rules against slow play, and I think he should've been called on it and possibly game loss with how blatant it was.

@arielvazquez1372

10 ай бұрын

In short, the rules allow you to use 15 seconds for each of your actions, Gardevoir exploits this a lot since it abuses a lot of skills and search items. The problem is largely that the rules allow this

@TreYay83

10 ай бұрын

​@arielvazquez1372 still shouldn't allow you to take 5 minutes to do absolutely nothing...

@arielvazquez1372

10 ай бұрын

@@TreYay83 The rules allow it, although it is wrong and should be reviewed

@iamlegend3007

10 ай бұрын

How is this wrong? Do you want to give everyone a maximum of ten seconds to think about a decision? Maybe with a clock at the table? The problem isn't the pace, it's the amount of time available for bo3. I think TPCI should think about adding more time per round. 60 minutes is appropriate meanwhile, there's too many decision-heavy decks.

1:54 can you elaborate on what you mean at this time stamp? If you’re playing against someone whom has let’s say accusations of slow playing, and you’re noticing he is playing considerably slower, by your own admission not progressing the game state I see ZERO problem with asking your opponent to speed up, if they decline call for a judge to have them observe the pace of play and make an objective decision.

@SmartTCG

10 ай бұрын

All I was saying is that tord opponent is increasing his pace of play which is totally fine however you cannot pressure your opp to play at that speed as well. That is all I was saying to that. However, if you decrease your pace of play based off a scenario that is consider cheating. Dont hesitate to ask them to increase pace and if they dont you can call a judge

@zarfies23

10 ай бұрын

@@brianortiz809 yea you can’t pressure your opponent to play faster, BUT if it’s in the context of them slow playing I think asking them to pick up the pace a bit is fine. They may not be be cognizant of it in actual play.

@zarfies23

10 ай бұрын

@@SmartTCG okay just wanted clarity! I totally agree 100%

I was really disappointed in Tord for this. Respect him, but this was intentional and not being a great sport.

Finally someone is not afraid to talk bout this, tord is well known for being a good player but he is also well known for slow playing and using the clock to his advantage, if the casters would stop sucking him off they would see this and either ban him or talk to him bout slow playing but ppl r to afraid to approach him on the situation, thank u for brining this up bc now ppl will b more aware when playing him

@swingkid9347

10 ай бұрын

ppl gotta chill and start hating the game, not the player. it´s such wishy washy rules, in a game that is getting more and more competitive, with more money involved than ever too. If anything hate the rules and or judges.

@monarch2500

10 ай бұрын

@@swingkid9347 nahhhhh can’t hate the rules or judges and not the player , if the player is abusing the rules then something gotta change, I hear wat ur saying bc the judges should have def said something but since tord is a player they respect they didn’t see wat we saw u know, just hopefully he sees this video and hears the community, I’m not saying he is a shitty person but wat he did was pretty shitty

@swingkid9347

10 ай бұрын

@monarch2500 I personally would have liked to see a warning into dlp if continued myself. But if that don't happen than we ought to change the rules (which allow the abuse in the first place) not the player. Yeah sure we can have our opinions and it's no fun to see, but competition at this level will always lead to win maximization over entertainment. Look at any sport rly, if a team in soccer is ahead and close to the clock, they will close in on the defense and pass the ball around or even take a knee. Btw: as a judge pointed out in the comments it rly is extremely hard call these situations and I don't think ppl are too afraid to shit talk about pokemons poster child, he stayed withing the rules, so all the power to him, at least his play is poiting out room for improvement in the rules. I think it's fair to say he's a shitty sportsman, just as it's fair for him to say so what, I am making bank and more trophies than anyone.

@monarch2500

10 ай бұрын

@@swingkid9347 lol yeah I hear u , we will have to see wat happens in the future

@swingkid9347

10 ай бұрын

@monarch2500 yeah, I am hoping for change too. Esp. With tournaments getting bigger and bigger we technically need more swiss rounds. Maybe BO1 is the answer after all 🤔 I think nobody wants three day events. But with BO1 we'd need some sort of new mulligan rules or something.. going second simply too punishing still. Also am I the only one that thinks prizechecking is a timewaisting boring ass skill to have? It's bot hard yet timeconsuming, just let ppl see their prizes, i don't see why we can't safe the time in game that is this pressed on time.

I think its really up to the judges to call a players attention for things like this: a caution then a warning until a penalty for repeated non-sense. Otherwise it's the players prerogative on how to win a match and for your opponent to beat you, as long as it is legal(even borderline legal, it's still legal). You have thousand of dollars at stake. It's so happen this is on stream so it was seen. But in IRL no cams, good luck catching this. If it's within gray of the rules, it stays gray area until Pokemon enforces a rule to change this. This is so common in MTG pros. True that it's sad when spirit of the game becomes optional over winning. Cheating starts on the intent they say. But... also... the hardworking car salesman will throw you a small lie to make the sale.

@danielbrunsch4196

10 ай бұрын

The only thing that really warranted judge calls were the last 5 minures so even if he would have gotten a caution and warning it wouldnt have dont anything. The stuff before that was questionable but still reasonable because he was still playing faster than the average player. Just that last turn where he realized that he can't allow the opponent to have one additional turn, was straight up foul.

@ 12:30 is there a rule that says you shouldn't shuffle as the card says after doing a search if you are going to play another search card? Or that you are penalized for doing so? I have made that mistake plenty of times, but I am not as skilled as Tord (obviously) and not playing at that level of tournaments. It just seems like a weird ruling. To me, this "slow play" is the equivalent in sports where a player may purposely draw a foul in order to prevent the opponent from doing something. Do we like it when that happens, no but it is technically allowed in the rules. While it may not fit the spirit of the game, it does fit the letter of the game rules. That being said, the Judges are kinda final say. They didn't step in, so the game was completed fairly according to the Judges.

why is the clock shared?

Wouldn't what Tord did fall under the Major Unsporting Conduct penalty using this example given in the Tournament Handbook? "During a match, a player makes legal plays that have no effect on the game in progress, or plays unreasonably slowly, in order to manipulate the time remaining in that match (TCG)." It seems to me that the key is intent. When I was an MTG judge, we could conduct an investigation and ask the player questions after the fact. If he admits to trying to manipulate the time remaining then it's cut and dry. I can't think of a reasonable explanation for burning off 5 minutes of clock that doesn't involve an obvious lie. Pace of play penalties seem to cover scenarios where someone isn't intentionally manipulating the clock, they are just taking way too long to think or do things. Intentionally trying to manipulate the clock isn't slow play, it's cheating.

I dont know if rechecked your hand between actions is too egregious, I know I sometimes have to double check my hand mid search sometimes to remember exactly what I wanted to be grabbing. I think the biggest thing that bothered me in this game was taking several searches where he failed to find anything in the same turn. I understand doing it once to see whats in the deck, I also get emptying dead cards from your hand. But searching your deck for a pokemon 3 times in the same turn and not finding a pokemon all three times feels fishy.

This is one of those situations were it does seem to be alot in that grey area. Myself personally at times have found myself playing with some of my friends/testing partners and I need to speed my pace of play up (granted I have been playing for about a year since BST release). I have played alot of lost box decks were I have several actions to do to at times and most games I am able to complete three games in mirrors recently. I believe that this is a product of the meta with so many decks out there that use the lost zone and Kirlia engines and those decks can run long games and not finish BO3 in 50 min. People keep bringing up chess clocks but that is not a balanced situation to things. This has to be something that Judges have to be aware of especially on stream is you see someone like Tord going back and forth between their deck and hand or shuffling their hand between actions that should be given a warning. I believe Tord and Pablo Mesa were given a Pace of play warning during there match during game one and that was the only reason that they finished 3 games because if Pablo started to bleed clock to only play one game he would have been penalized. If you are a well known player that has seemed to be centered around all these discussions something should happen

the time consuming play style is not a slow play. it is a fact that you can't negate/deny/name as "cheating". it is a strategy. yes, it is. so, if you can win, but can't do it in your time slot - you lose. nothing else. nothing more. and this is a what we saw. time is a weapon too.

I'm sad to see it for Alberto, Tord just played it like a quarterback kneeling at the end of a football game.

Just look at Tord's body language after that last turn. He knows what he did was dirty and he clearly looks ashamed about how he played that out. But it's Tord, Pokemon's posterboy so nothing will change until the rules change.

Here's how i see it... you have 50 minutes to play 3 matches. The first match must have taken 35 or so minutes... I play against lost box and usually they take the majority of the time... if the opponent and tord took 35 minutes for game 1, what's the chance they complete game 2 in 12 to 15? Maybe that's in his head from the get go. Second thing is in most sports, football basketball etc... all these sports take knees to run out the clock or dribble out the clock.... I think everything depends on game 1 and what time Alberto used in that one. If tord played more than 50% of the 50 minutes then yes but if tord lost the first game and it took 35 minutes... you think lost box is going to let him finish game 2?

In a game of randomness. The only way top players are top players are by being ungodly strategizing or some form of manipulation/cheating. I learned this early in Yu-Gi-Oh with jeff Jones. He placed really well when he brought new strategy decks, but otherwise placing is just solid. If someone is winning over and over then it's probably not a good sign.

I new to pokemon tcg, so your saying that since told won game one he gets awarded game 2 even if he is losing that match currently? Or does this end up a draw?

@nuggetoftruth865

10 ай бұрын

Nobody can win the game in the +3 turns, so game 2 doesn’t resolve. That means Tord wins 1-0 since he won game 1.

I’m not calling anyone out. Calls out Tord. 😅

all pokemon has to do is make the rule where if time is called player with the most prizes taken wins the game and then you compare the score to determine the match winner should have been time called score is 1-1 match is a draw, that is ridiculous that a fully turn based tcg like pokemon allows a player to stall like this to run the clock and the other player can do nothing but watch

@swingkid9347

10 ай бұрын

have fun playing int. urshifu or gardi or any other deck that plays around comebacks. Ur literally begging for a stall meta then lmao

They literally have it on tcg live where each player has their own time they can find a way to incorporate that into best of three play!

I dont think this is cheating. But to avoid all this time/slow playing BS tourneys should start having player timers vs game timers just the same way PTCG LIVE has it. Your time runs out you lose. This will eliminate alot of slow playing players

@chiefgaming7692

10 ай бұрын

Those don’t encompass BO3. Those clocks would still need reset after each game. So it would result in extremely longer games especially those going into game 3

@laitrs1

10 ай бұрын

@@chiefgaming7692 not if they set the timers to 15-20mins. Ppl dont go online and practice slow playing or go check to see whos gonna slow play you for that game. Theres more ppl attending the these tourneys and eventually its gonna come dont to them having a 3day event vs 2day event, so clocks shouldnt be an issue to implement

@EtherSword

10 ай бұрын

@@chiefgaming7692 A heavy thinking board game called chess has timers, ptcg can too.

@swingkid9347

10 ай бұрын

@@laitrs1 lol that would result in 90-120 minute games at a point where the game got so large we technically need more swiss rounds anyway. Maybe BO1 for swiss is the answer after all.. they need to implement some mulligan rules or something in that case though. Going second is still way too unfavored.

@mastertrumpet101

10 ай бұрын

Actually a good idea. I wouldn’t mind a timer just like chess. That way you are forced to move at a reasonable pace. Enough time to do whatever you have to do per turn.

hahaha in my city, wasting time we call it doing "the great Tord".

So is this how Master League Players play to win matches in PTCGL? 😅

The problem with slow play is that it is by definition subjective and good players can take advantage of that. IMO this is a clear cut example of breaking the rules. However if a newer player did the same thing or even more egregious things I might not even call a judge because managing your hand, knowing your routes, etc can be tricky when you don't know your deck inside and out. And I would probably do the same thing as Tord in this situation. There is just no incentive to play with pace when there are legal actions you can take

@swingkid9347

10 ай бұрын

exactly, hate the game not the player. Or the judges if u must.

@Blahblah-oo7lk

5 ай бұрын

@@swingkid9347 i wouldn't blame the judges int his case.e the rules state that slow play penalty is for the AVERAGE pace of play. Notice how Tord takes 30 seconds or so for some actions when he needs to strategize or plan things out, but then blitzes things through, thus meeting the specific criteria of 15 seconds. The judges also are forced to err on the side of caution (and it is even worse in Japan where rulings are more lenient but the community operates more on an honor system than in the West) due to various reasons. This is more of a super grey area case where the judges cannot really penalize him because the rules have no penalty per se on this sort of situation.

@swingkid9347

5 ай бұрын

@Blahblah-oo7lk I wouldn't either. I Agree with you, just meant that if pace of play is a continuous problem, which it is, I'd have a new look at the rules. If the rules are actually good, but there is still time abuse happening (and it goes unpunished and thus against what the rules set out) then the next thing I'd look at is judges if maybe don't enforce the rules of the game, and I agree that it for the most part likely is not on judges, but the rules. My point is only that the players are the last thing I'd look at. This is a huge and competitive game that people spend tons of money for to be able to play (travel expenses mostly) and big prize money, we all would like to see people "just being fair", but If there is a greyzone or loopholes, the best of the best more likely that not will take every edge they can get, which at the end of the day should be a good thing, since it points out the flaws of the game and calls for improvement and updates on specific rules. Btw. As far as I know the is no such thing as 15 secs per action mentioned in the official rules, I don't where that Idea comes from since everyone always says that. But yeah good players will think out their turn in advance for a while and then execute quickly up until the next relevant drawbased "crossroad". My two cents, have a nice day

@Blahblah-oo7lk

5 ай бұрын

@@swingkid9347 I believe the "15-second rule" is a guideline created in the Official Tournament Rules handbook, Section 5.8.5. But the rule isn't a hard-line rule but rather a guideline TPCi created to determine "reasonable" and is of course super based on the "context of normal play." The 15-second rule was derived from those guidelines and is in the rulebook for Japanese judges (which operate separately from judges from NA/EU). Professors (according to a professor friend) are taught that context means accounting for a wide variety of factors such as experience, history (which is not accessible for the average judge, and no access for judges on stream), timing, average pace of play, the type of deck played, player ability or disability (i..e you assume more time for kids or players with developmental disabilities), etc.

Each player should have their own clock and if they run out of time they lose

@nuggetoftruth865

10 ай бұрын

Aside from the unnatural advantages this would give to low-action decks like Arceus, there are many logistical issues with implementing a chess-clock in large tournaments. I won’t type everything out again, but I left another reply to a comment on here detailing some of the issues.

@NilahxNightmare

10 ай бұрын

Each player getting their own clock works fine on live

@nuggetoftruth865

10 ай бұрын

@@NilahxNightmare there are a LOT of reasons why Live is different. First, the time given is way higher. Each player gets 25 minutes to finish 1 game, for 50 minutes total. If you want it to be feasible for a tournament, you’d need about 16 minutes per game, which only allows 8 minutes per player to finish each game in a best of 3. Second, time is kept automatically on Live. In tournament play, each player would have to remember to accurately switch time over every single turn, and additionally whenever there is any sort of opponent interaction like escape ropes. This is an additional unneeded thing that distracts players further from an already mentally straining game. Third, Live doesn’t require physical clocks. At a tournament, organizers would need to keep a physical clock at every single table, along with replacements for when they break (which is a whole other issue of resetting the correct time when a timer breaks). It also takes up table space that players really don’t have. Fourth, Live doesn’t have misplays and judge calls. With all the above problems with physical clocks, there will also be many additional time-related judge calls, penalties, and delays, which makes running a tournament all the more of a headache.

@darionelifritz9961

10 ай бұрын

live isn't best of 3....@@NilahxNightmare

I've been comparing this to a similar thing sports teams do in soccer or football. The winning team will purposefully waste time, and it's completely legal..to a degree. For example; a keeper will get a yellow card if they take too long to set up a goal kick towards the end of the game. I don't think it's cheating, what Tord's doing. It's definitely unsportsmanlike. However, the judges should have used their discretion more appropriately and issued warnings or a penalty. If you want to solve the issue altogether, use timers/chess clocks.

It's not cheating but the judges should have done something about the obvious slow play. Sad to see.

Why not add turn timers? Like every turn you get 1 min or somthing like that? If you go past the timer 1 time it's a warning 2 times it's a prize penalty?

Pokemon really needs to implement the same time rules as top cut to Swiss rounds. Go by prizes on an incomplete game. Not only would it help fix situations like this, but it would make control decks a non-viable strategy. I recently saw a video on the top cheaters in magic, and the #1 player on the list did everything Pokémon players do regularly, like double attach and draw extra cards. Pokemon needs a true penalty overhaul, clearer rules guidelines with no room for gray areas, and should expand their banned players list.

@alex77195

10 ай бұрын

Control decks are part of the game

@NinjaNickTCG

10 ай бұрын

@@alex77195 that’s what I said yes

@justsomekirbowithoutamusta1852

10 ай бұрын

@@NinjaNickTCG They are a part of the game, that's why they should be as viable as any other deck.

@NinjaNickTCG

10 ай бұрын

@@justsomekirbowithoutamusta1852 they are not an intended part of the game by game design.

@justsomekirbowithoutamusta1852

10 ай бұрын

@@NinjaNickTCG Right, they introduced ability blockers and hand control accidentally. What are you on about?

I would have been pretty irritated and not played it out the minute they called time and he passed no point why waste anyone’s time. I imagine that would get it more talked about then what happened

Cheating in Pokémon is a low Never want to see this especially in a regional Disappointing Time abuse feels the worst when it’s being done to you because you feel absolutely helpless I think it should be more of a chess-type clock but it doesn’t really matter

@swingkid9347

10 ай бұрын

its not cheating tho. hate the game not the player

Why does ptcg have an overall clock rather than a player clock? This is an issue in plenty of tcg games so why don’t they solve it by instead of everyone getting an hour for their matches, each player gets 30 min and they hit the clock to pass turns?

You can’t really say that using all the cards in your hand or on field is cheating. Because it assumes that you know their game plan, even though you don’t. What if I needed to play all those cards to win, in my opinion? What if I feel that I needed to do all that ball searching to thin the deck? It’s super subjective. It’s a problem that needs to be solved, but it won’t be solved by assumptions. It could possibly be solved by turn timers or something, but that might be hard to implement.

@GeneralWarfield

10 ай бұрын

Well if you look at that Turn and know how both decks work, it's very obvious that Todd didn't even try to attack at all that game, he literally just played towards the clock.

@nuggetoftruth865

10 ай бұрын

There are a few obvious red flags in this. First, he made many choices that straight up conflict with the point of the deck and how he has played the deck himself in previous rounds. His refinements don’t make sense given the energies and such he has in hand, and he really does nothing that whole game to advance towards a win. His setup by the end was leading towards a 5-0 prize trade against him. That isn’t playing to win. The other red flag was his compartmentalization of his game actions. Taking the maximum time every time to search through deck, shuffling the deck every time even when about to go back instead of combining game actions, using Artazon right after a deck search just to fail, then bench another Pokémon from hand anyway, etc. Doing this is an abuse of the time rules and can be penalized via warning or DPL. It’s clearly odd gameplay from him that was directed at wasting the maximum time possible. 5 minutes on a single turn is awful given how little he actually did.

Official Pokemon should give seperate timers for each player, like speed chess.

Something that surprises me from pokemon is that the game allows you to take pointless actions. In other games you wouldn't be able to use artazon without a legal target. Meaning that if you don't bench any pokemon, you would get a warning/minor penalty.

@Tvboy777

10 ай бұрын

Nah dude, Magic is exactly the same. It's called the "fail to find" rule. It's because if there are no targets in the deck, it's impossible to prove that to an opponent without letting them look through your entire deck, but also it's extremely easy as a player to lose track of how many of a specific type of card is left in your deck, so then you'd be constantly giving penalties and rewinding game states for that. Not to mention Pokémon also has the prize cards which are hidden information to both players, so you'd have to also check the deck and the prize cards to know whether or not there is a legal target to search for in the deck.

This is not cheating, Tord it's just exploiting the rules. The problem are the rules, not the players. Cheating is when you do something not permitted by the ruling, like hiding cards or using external means to benefit your play. Tord is not cheating.

Tord is a very talented player who wants the win just like anyone else but using the clock to your advantage and not actually trying to play the game but just waste time is in my opinion very unprofessional and not being a good sport. Not sure if you would know Smarttcg but why isn't there a timer for a players turn instead of just one overall timer for the whole set? I feel like it might fix the problem if a player has a time limit on there turns rather than the whole set.

Give people chess-like stop clocks and separate timers - like how PTCGO or PTCGL do it. Having a joint clock is just silly in 2023.

One thing I think tcg card games like yugioh, pokemon, and mtg should implement is that each player have their own time like they do in Chess. Your time runs out, you lose. You end your turn, you click the stop buttom like in Chess. This would end slow playing.

there is no honor in the way Tord plays this game. Period

Pokemon needs to implement the 5 turn clock after the timer ends. It stops this type of play cos if your opponent is going to win they will win.

unpopular opinion: did Tord do effectively nothing in 5min? yes. did Tord break any rules? no. he played the game within the confines of the rules. at the beginning of this you state that "your opponent should never feel pressured to play faster" and then immediately "Tord did nothing and should have played faster". you cant have it both ways. he's either allowed to play at the pace allowed by rule, or the rules need to change. welcome to top level play of anything, where the clock is just as much part of the game as taking 6 prizes.

Glad you made this video although the title is very clickbaity. I wouldn't blame Todd that much, he's just doing what the game is allowing. Still felt really bad to watch.

I feel like a simple fix to this would be after turns are done whoever has taken the most prizes wins the game. If time is called on game one and turns end the player with more prizes taken wins the match, if a player has won game 1 and time is called in game 2 (like this sinareo) the player who's taken more prizes wins (if that was the player who won game 1 then he wins the match as a 2-0. If it was the other player then the match ends as a 1-1 tie). If time is called in game 3 my previous stated rules apply. If both players have the same prizes by the end of turns the game can be a draw if the game is a draw the player who was up a game wins the match.

@yugiohduallink681

10 ай бұрын

I don't think this is going to be fair for late-game decks, I suggest them to have a timer like chess. When turns end press the timer to switch it to the other player's.

@TheZuggernaut

10 ай бұрын

They won't implement a chess clock. They'd need to supply one for every table in the venue and they'd also need go come up with a universal time each player is allowed per game. It makes way more sense for them to go by prize count especially because that's often a gentleman's agreement between the players anyway. Which would make it an easier transition.

Alright, my two cents on the matter is this. First off if I was Alberto trying to finish and win a game two I would be very frustrated I get that 100%. But imo how Tord played game two is legal and within the rules of the game. It's really not much different than playing against a stall/control deck in the sense that it keeps the opponent from playing the game. It's super annoying its not much fun and it feels bad but its all legal and fair. Everybody gets to bring whatever standard 60 card deck they want to these tournaments and its all part of how the game is played. Also give Tord credit for winning game one, which as a side note if you don't want to be in this situation don't lose game one right. I think TPCI should address clock and overtime rules as I think it could make the game more fun, fair and competitive. For instance I think for a game two that goes into time you should get the +3 turns as we do now then whoever is up on prizes after turns wins the game two. That would incentivize both players to play hard and fast which is what we all want. But TPCI hasn't done that thus far and I am sure they have their reasons why. Good video this stuff needs to be talked about so that we can all move the game forward together.

Pokémon should change the rule to whichever player has less prizes after time and turns just wins the match

TCGLive makes each player manage their own time. That's a good way, in my opinion. I shouldn't have to worry about how much time my opponent is burning.

This problem is easily solved if both players had their own clock.

I’ve very little experience with the tcg. However it seems every tcg I have played have issues with this. To a point where players will build decks just to do this. The issue comes down to the design of the rules. It’s the players job to do whatever it takes within the rules to win. This style is bad for the games in general in my opinion because it’s not beneficial to anyone except the player using the rules to their favour. Spectators don’t wanna watch this style and it’s irritating as hell to play against.

I think this title is way too clickbait for an analytical channel like this one. The point is to discuss if what Tord did is cheating, right? But with the way the title is worded, some viewers are going to be primed to think that he did from start. Personally? I don't think he cheated. Sure, you can argue what he did is unsportsmanlike, but it's not something worthy of a ban. I do respect your channel and content a lot. The title on this video just happens to be sus to me. I get it's for the algorithm, but man I just can't get behind it after reading some of these comments

Now this is maybe just me that feels it but not sure about what other feel about it To me what Tord did was not keeping up on the pace of play because he was doing unnecessary actions to burn the clock as it was showing clearly his goal was to do, but obviously Tord is trying to win here as everyone else is trying to do so he abusing the clock to make it his win condition here at this point because he knows that they don't have time for a game 3 here I also can't really call it slow playing but i can see why people will call it slow playing (i just call it not keeping up with the pace of play here) but i found it hard to call it slow playing only because Tord does play at a reasonable pace he just use as many card ability's as possible to burn the clock down, but he doesn't take 30+ seconds everytime he takes a action to do stuff Also can't really call it cheating as well because there's nothing illegal happening here at least what i can see, he does everything right here but not in the sense of pace of play which is not cheating imo Again i'm not saying everyone is wrong about it and i'm not trying to defend Tord for his actions because it is not okay to abuse the clock as he has done lately the last couple events, i think Tord should have gotten at least a warning for the pace of play or a dpl if he haven't already got a warning for it

When watching this live, i remember thinking he's not even trying to play hes just not losing this game. But Tord knows where he is in the game and is just playing each card. I dont like it. It's frustrating for the other players and the viewers, but it's the same in all professional sports. Its up to the referee to make these calls or the other player to call it out to the ref to make a choice.

The way he play it out give him possible deniability but is very scummy. With how the rules are currently layout they are first given warning (can even be just verbal pick up the pace of place) or an official warning, but nothing else is done unless that player has been warned before then it be a double prize penalty. The big issues is it hard to even get given a warning for slow play when there are only so many judges walking around.

I've had oppents kill the clock to get a tie because they knkw they're gonna lose. If TCG Live has a time limit then IRL tournaments should have time limits as well.

Tord did use Super Rod and didn't shuffle because he went into the deck right away afterwards. So I wouldn't say he abuse that.

I think rounds should be 75 minutes or be best of one.

The judges should've payed more attention and taken action against this kind of slow play. It's not a fair and sportmanlike way to compete

On TCG live, each player has there own clock. Why don’t they do the same on tournaments

This makes his DQ all the more deserved honestly. He keeps abusing his luck

Whether u beleave it is unsportsmanlike is another question

If you play lost box, just know that you're waisting everyone's time and you'll either lose or tie. I say this because lost box players spend 30 mi tunes every turn to set up their board, knowing that their opponent will take a prize card every turn, and they will spend the whole clock trying to pull a 6 prize K.O out of their ass. By the time the 2nd match comes, neither player have enough time to win, so the lost box will lose if they lose the first round, and then if not, they will tie. Players like this waist everyone's time.

was his use of Artazon actually legal at around 7 minutes remaining? Tord had a full bench already

@PredatorTheStealth

10 ай бұрын

He had 4 on the bench

@Sam-lr9oi

10 ай бұрын

@@PredatorTheStealth oh yeah I didn't scan far back enough lol I thought greninja was there already

Notice how right as time is called tord also just passes turn

Yeah I hate watching the 1-0 king in feature matches I’m ngl. He does it blatantly when he’s winning to win in time and when the opponent is winning he paces fast enough for the tie. You can tell by his day 1 records too, that’s when he has a field day. I remember seeing the 9-0-6 record and no one batting an eye. They definitely need to allow judge calls for slow play

where is his giant robot?

IVE BEEN WAITING FOR THIS

Playing the vacuum is irrelevant here. Yes, Tord grabs Mew and then shuffles (then goes back in later with a level ball). BUT, a shuffle is 100% required IF he intends to use Mew's ability Mysterious Tail which it appears that way bc he retreats and brings Mew to the active. Perhaps Tord was going to Mysterious Tail first but then decided to play level ball instead. Throwing around accusations and effectively calling someone a cheater (but chalking it up as a grey area...) is not any better of spirit especially when: 1) this play was justifiable if he planned to use Mysterious Tail (he can change his mind) and 2) the opposing player and judge say nothing, effectively not holding their opponent/player accountable if in-fact they suspected cheating. Also, are both players "at fault" for taking 37min (slow play?) for one game leaving 13 min left in a best of 3 only to have just started game 2 lol? What are we really talking about here… Our efforts and concerns should be directed to PTCG about updating their rules and regulations to better accommodate players as well as fairness as it relates to games, time, and turns, right? Not speculating players of cheating which is pretty egregious and defaming in itself. Every player is in the tournament 100% for their own self-interest: to win.

@SmartTCG

10 ай бұрын

No what I’m referring to is. Tord uses artazon and searches for mew and shuffles his deck entirely. He then vaccums and then level balls. Efficiently allowing himself to shuffle twice. If he had artazoned then shuffled then instantly played level ball and then shuffled that’s an easier warning or dpl for slowplay a judge can call. However if you play the vacuum in between both searches it becomes more difficult to call it out because it masks it. So yes the artazon does matter

@pfefferlp

10 ай бұрын

@@SmartTCG He used artazon and grabs Mew. Then shuffles. Then plays lost vacuum. Then attaches energy to Kirlia and retreats into Mew. He shuffled from artazone once...My point above still stands: he could have used Mysterious Tail first which would in fact warrant the shuffle before using the ability correct? Yes. It's possible he could have changed his mind on using mysterious tail first and instead goes level ball first. So, again, using artazon/vacuum is irrelevant. The vacuum doesn't "mask" it bc he very well could have tailed at any point there.

He played by the rules but barely so. He totally knew what he was doing by holding on until the last second

If I'm playing against tord and I'm down a game like this I'm just drawing and attacking. No other actions. It's unfair that I would be forced to do that but if his opponent did that tord would of had to scoop or do something way more egregious. Going back to the taking 4 prizes equals a win could help idk. It's a hard situation

@danielbrunsch4196

10 ай бұрын

But then he wins by playing regularily and taking his time. That's the thing. He already plays the best deck in format and if you are forced to play fast you might to mistakes that either gets you a penalty or lose you the game. It's straight up unfair on many levels.

As a newer player, this looks like it breaks the spirit of the game

@Megadeez1

10 ай бұрын

This is correct. But this winning. It's like walking the same batter every at bat in a baseball game

@MVPING

10 ай бұрын

While I do understand your point, I would just say that walking a batter is a sign of respect while slow play is disrespectful in my opinion @@Megadeez1

Look at the bright side, he never manage to get the trophy but end up in the runner ups. Either way, loopholes should not be go unchecked.

I think Tord is in the right due to Pokemontcg not making more strict rules about slow playing. More rules aren't necessarily better, but in the case of slow playing, if it feels like slow playing, looks like slow playing, it probably is slow playing. But since the rules are not 100% clear, nor does it seem like judges are exercising their due diligence when watching out for this type of stuff, can't blame people for taking every edge possible when money is on the line.

I think what he did was legal, but he definitely was stretching the time. He knew he wasn’t going to win, so he stalled the “legal” way. But I think the intent to stall a game should be a warning for sure.

How is playing cards in a card game at a reasonable pace slow playing? That's just dumb. You can't call slow playing based on the quality of the play.

Well, Gardi has enormous hands at time. Don't tell me you know every single card in your hand while searching your deck.. If we're under pressure, most of us won't even remember more than three or four cards. So if we start punishing that, we'll create a tense atmosphere everytime a deck focusing on one prizers is involved.

@iamlegend3007

10 ай бұрын

Edit: Of course time play exists in general, but in this case there's literally no point in playing the game as fast as possible so that your opponent might win game 2 in time. His opponent could have scooped earlier. So it's his responsibility as well.

Glad he was DQd recently. About time these cheaters start getting called out

Considering this is professional/high level competitive play, why is this even remotely ambiguous? The are stakes here beyond bragging rights and CP. Anyone who wouldn't play the clock like that is crazy. Especially with a Gard deck everyone already knows is glacial!

They need chess clocks

Ive always wondered why dont they implement chess clocks into these type of mayor league events. Individual time for each player would help reduce ties, plus incentivize players to waste less time.

@SoundcastStudios

10 ай бұрын

Cause different decks take up different amounts of time to play. For example lost box takes WAY more time for its turns than most other decks.

@hokey9175

10 ай бұрын

@rebirtbofkupp565 that should come into account when playing a deck. I think a chess clock is easier to implement and the judge can work out the finer details in a match

@rebirthofkupp565

10 ай бұрын

@@SoundcastStudios skill issue, ur choice to play a long ass deck

@Tvboy777

10 ай бұрын

Escape Rope: whose time gets used while the opponent switches? Collapsed Stadium/Avery: same question. Super Rod: opponent is looking through your discard pile when you want to play Rod, whose timer is running while you ask and wait for them to hand it back. Opponent shuffling your deck after you search, the clocks still on your timer while you wait for them to finish shuffling. And then whose clock gets used up between games while players are shuffling and setting up?

man that was painful to watch.

The rules should just be whoever has a prize lead after the 3 turns after time is called wins the game. Then nobody would try to stall with this tactic and always be pushing to draw prizes aka win the game.

THEY SHOULD INVENT A CARD SHUFFLING MACHINE

This is the type of thing that will keep people out of the TCG I know I hate playing against these losers

Any and every TCG should have chess regulated timers. So each player's turn, the timer is going on their side, and once they're done their turn, they press the timer to switch it to the other player's. Many chess tournaments will have faster games at 1 hour per player, 30 minutes (Action Chess), 15 minutes (Quick Chess), or 5 minutes (Speed or Blitz Chess) I'd reckon 15 minutes per player max should be the standard. This would stop this kind of play and cheating. Problem solved.

@Megadeez1

10 ай бұрын

This is an entirely great point. Also guidelines on how to shuffle so it's all uniform

@TiMEbeatsNoW

10 ай бұрын

Very hard to do when you account for interactions that require opponent input on your turn (escape rope being the biggest). Chess has one action per turn while pokemon has numerous. Players already forget to do certain actions on their turn already so how can you expect players to regulate their own chess clocks?

@danielbrunsch4196

10 ай бұрын

The problem with that is that this would kill a lot of decks and have many other decks with little to no actions abuse the clock, because you can essentially draw a card, attach and instantly attack. So we'd get an hyper aggressive meta which is even more based on coinflips.

@swingkid9347

10 ай бұрын

@@danielbrunsch4196 thank you

Tord is the one who manage time for play and do not get a waring from judge becoz he play just a sec then stop just a 3-4 sec then play again and hold 3-5 sec and play again and again. it is many action = many waste of times, ofc he win first game that something he must do is burn the time for running out .if he fast play (actually he can do) this game will go 1-1 and he will lose the rate for paring next and top cut and result score My answer is this is grey zone it's not wrong for sure if you take an action and hold game a sec not for long ,judge will not warning you but, i want the game make it clearly what is wrong ,what you can do and what you cannot do i think this Tord's behavior will be new standard for player who play "time lose strategy" coz of he can do 1st game and it's on his plan by respect he is a great player but his strategy i dont like too

Good video Gabe.

Imagine being a widely respected Pokemon player and intentionally choosing to enter with a stall for time deck. Massive L.

The very first thing showed in this video is slowplay. He's searching the deck when the video starts. Drops a card, searches deck, checks hand, searches deck, shuffles. By definition he is slowplaying and should be called right there. There was no reason to search the deck twice after resolving the effect. After that, idc how "legal" or "gray area" the rest is, he already clearly slowplayed beyond any reasonable doubt and the rest of the match should be considered cheating.

This happens alot like alot, its hard to solve he slow played on purpose but did it in away was legal. Pokemon needs to change this but quedtion is how? Add a clock like in chess? Ya way to complicated. Make a rule about double searching in a turn n shuffling each time? Its a hard one to do. Another option even thou gies to time game 2 make it so least prize cards taken gets game win. That would of caused a tie for match like in eliminating rounds. I do think tord 100% had a goal he knew he ciuldbt win the game n playing naturally it would of went to game 3 and a tie but tord knew there could be a small chance he got donked in game 3. Tord normally plays alot faster until it matters. Which is why he did the game 2 the way he did. If he thought he could won he would of done so but he knew 100% he had a greater chance to loss

Honestly, hate game not the player. There is tons of money on the line, there was tons of time to play faster or scoop for both players in game 1 and lastly the judges decided to let it pass. If I was Alberto, I would have asked Tord/the judges to speed it up and if I was the judges I would have given a warning and eventaully a penalty, yes absolutely. But even then, the play with the highest chance of a win is to slowplay, since for tord it´s a decision between play fast into an autoloss vs play slow into the potential of either a win or a two price penatly into a loss.

if prize denial and medium-slow play is cheating control has no grounds existing, The name of the game is take KOs get prizes, when we allow decks to win with mill strategy, energy denial and relying on winning game one and stalling the rest its the same as playing Pokemon VGC and only using Harden and potions to make opponent struggle himself out. Intentional slow play is suposed to be called out by judges and players, but at a big stake game as long as its within the legality of the game I deem fair play. I would not like to be on the receiving end but its clever use of game mechanics. Same as bluffing, as long as you are not lying about information it plays a role in card games.