Thanks for having me! The editing on this was amazing.

@SSJ4Brohan

8 ай бұрын

That was super fun to watch! Thanks guys!

WIth the battle of these two broken, complicated and extremely expensive decks, I am reminded of one of Negate's flavor texts: "Masters of the arcane savor a delicious irony. Their study of deep and complex arcana leads to such a simple end: the ability to say merely yes or no."

@darthparallax5207

Жыл бұрын

Honestly you can bring these decks down to reasonable costs with two changes: 1. More Petals for mana instead of P9 2. Switch Recall for Brainstorm That basically makes them reasonable for how much $ vs how powerful the decks still would be. Being allowed 6 Petals is more likely than 4 Lotuses anyway

It figures in a format where you can run ANYTHING, Nikachu would still pick a wincon that uses merfolk.

@icedragonSg

Жыл бұрын

They both do..

I love the amount of actual interaction here, makes it far more interesting than "oops, combo'd first"! Makes players have to think! Just a bit annoying that Thoracle is so broken that every best deck now revolves around it.

Fairly certain a larger scale experiment was done on this a few years ago, and it was determined that Chalice of the Void was the best card in a fully unrestricted meta. It basically devolved into games being determined by who went first because they could drop Chalice for 0, 1, and sometimes even 2, leaving the opponent mostly unable to do anything.

@Blacksunstoneful

Жыл бұрын

It would be kind of funny to chalice for 0 on a deck like that, then start laying down tron lands and sweep them with a 15 mana emrakul

@heraldofv3379

Жыл бұрын

​@@Blacksunstoneful lmfao

@Trisket

Жыл бұрын

@@Blacksunstoneful once the Chalices are in play you resolve a Monastery Mentor (currently restricted in Vintage, for good reasons) at which point every non-creature you cast into Chalice still generates another 1/1 with prowess, closing out the game very quickly.

@JohnFromAccounting

5 ай бұрын

That's why Chalice is restricted in Vintage. Chalice on 1 turns off so much.

@GodzillaFreak

3 ай бұрын

Well to beat chalice you can just play more lands, which is fine because moxes only really become so much better than lands when you are already playing a land every turn. Opening exactly one land is just like opening a mox, but with better properties.

This goes to illustrate a good point which is that if two people both have very strong decks, even if they are both illegal, as long as the power levels are similar it makes for an entertaining match.

Surprised we didn’t see any reversals with ancestral recall after they exile their library with thoracle on the stack to make them draw 3.

When Force of Will was first printed there was a massive discussion around the power level, how much it had changed the game… Seeing both players afraid to go off till they have 100 free counters in hand sure brings back memories of those talks.

I remember when Flash Hulk’s main strat was disciple of the vault + x cost artifact creatures.

@anonacc3067

Жыл бұрын

Despite that being probably the best known flash-hulk kill, it was never actually played competitively or the "main strat". The deck was only legal for a month in Legacy and a little over a year in vintage. In Legacy Flash-Hulk used the combo of hulk - Carrion feeder + Karmic Guide - return hulk, sac to feeder - get kiki-jiki - kiki copies karmic, response sac kiki to feeder - guide enters return kiki - kiki copies karmic, repeat. Doing this makes infinite karmic guides with haste. The vintage hulk decks just used 4 virulent slivers and a heart sliver.

I wasn't 100% sure if Thassa's Oracle or Thassa's Oracle would win the match, but I was strongly leaning towards Thassa's Oracle. The fact that Thassa's Oracle won was more than a little surprising.

There’s probably an argument for letting the thasas resolve sometimes, letting consultation resolve then targeting them with ancestral, fight over that to win the game instead of merely not losing

@NikachuMTG

Жыл бұрын

That's a great line!

It's crazy that a card printed as recently as Thoracle belongs in the same pile of broken cards as the moxen and other cards from mtg's beginning

@darthparallax5207

Жыл бұрын

The first year I would say "wow, that's good with year 1?!?" As a surprising commentary would either be 1997 (Tempest block, because 94-96 were much more muted than 93), or, jump ahead to 99-00? Let's jump post-Urza: Mercadian Masques block is not awful but it is pretty balanced not broken. Food Chain is a card, though. Rishadan Port has utility but still seems fair just good. So maybe skip Masques? Invasion block is the first obvious stop: 1. Phyrexian Arena. No it's not Necropotence but it is good enough that it's impressive and surprisingly so for being, at the time so new and so far removed from 1993 as well. (Almost a full Standard rotation after Urza. Had the insanity dust finally settled?) 2. After Phyrexian Arena it's really not a contest: Mirrodin block entirely was a return of Urza block and the coast was Not clear. 3. After Mirrodin block: DREDGE. Let's first explain why I didn't bring up Storm: honestly Force of Will planted back in Ice Age was the hero keeping people safer from Storm. Force doesn't help against Dredge so much And Dredge specifically put an Arabian Nights Reserved List Land on blast after it seemed like Library's days were finally over: suddenly an *entire mechanic* besides Black Lotus and Lightning Bolt were really on people's radars for "how to be silly in Vintage" -- not just draw, specifically self mill. 4. So, '93, '98, '01, '03, '05 Time Spiral block was obviously a huge celebration of 15ish years of tradition What's the next truly unexpected Surprise silliness? Well definitely not Planeswalkers, because the Lorwyn 5 were Fair. Tezzeret was also not the first card to throw his hat in the ring to combo with Time Vault. The M10 Era looked on the surface like it was Stable and Fair and nothing would outrageously boat rock Vintage. Jace, TMS and SFM sure made a splash on every other format, but Vintage didn't seem as bothered by them, and you weren't -12ing in Vintage. I think "after Dredge" it has to be: Classic Broken Oldies '93-'94: ABU, AN, AQ Classic Broken Modern '03 Mirrodin '06 Dredge '12 Emrakul the Aeons Torn '13 Griselbrand

@darthparallax5207

Жыл бұрын

Classic Broken Oldies '93-'94: ABU, AN, AQ '97-98: Urza-Necro stupidity '01: Invasion's Phyrexian Arena was pushed a surprising amount for its exact timing. Someone else might put Psychatog or another card here. This era was calming down to relatively *fair* though. Exciting, fun, skill testing, and fair. Classic Broken Modern '03 Mirrodin '06 Dredge '12 Emrakul the Aeons Torn '13 Griselbrand and Phyrexian Mana writ large, but infect didn't damage Vintage much. So you can make a history of "honestly broken cards" to show an almost even sprinkling of Busted years going up to 2013 clear as day. Innistrad also contained Lab Maniac so probably Psychatog really does belong on this list. From 2015-2018, does anything wreck up Vintage a lot, or do we merely observe an aggressive evolution of Original Modern to the Modern we know today? Pretty sure Broke-o Thief of Crowns at least has to make the list. Honestly forgot if Kaladesh was Vintage good or *only* Modern good. There were periods of up to 5ish years in a row they did not accidentally/(on purpose?) print a new Vintage archetype. Companion is silly. The story from Shards of Alara up to War of the Spark seemed to avoid affecting Vintage when able to and now they are willing to on purpose shake up Vintage more frequently I believe. In fact Theros Beyond Death 2020ish we are about due in the next 2-3 years for something absurd.

@LyleH-13

Жыл бұрын

​@@darthparallax5207 Marques is one of my favorite blocks. It was very powered down, but as a block it was very fun.

This format zibers so hard! Hope it becomes a new series!!!

You should make more of this type of video! It was really interesting watching you play the game for a change (not that the discussion content is bad or anything).

Great video and idea - looking forward to more broken content :P If there is one thing I love about MTG, it's insane stacks full of counterspells.

Really cool seeing both sides of the game

Cool! Love watching the videos before I go to sleep!:)

Awesome! Your videos are always entertaining and well made.

@NikachuMTG

Жыл бұрын

Thank you very much!

If they're both Thassa's Oracle + Demonic Consultation decks, are they really considered different decks?

@estebanmarco8755

Жыл бұрын

Yes because if you wanted you could do the flash deck in bant only using breakfast combo (Cephalid Illusionist + Nomads en-Kor)

@OneEightZeroZero

Жыл бұрын

Kinda are cause the Doomsday one you can also win with just Doomsday + Ancestral Recall instead of Demonic Consultation.

I love how they don’t play lands

great video as always

That was awesome

Bryant: best deck ever, wins on Turn 0 in Grand Prix and is still banned like 15 years later. Nikachu: I have a Merfolk 🍣

@xenonhero126

Жыл бұрын

They both have a Merfolk 🍣

@SpiritSquadMTG

Жыл бұрын

I mean, yes. They’re even the same one. But the joke was right there. 🤷🏾

Do you guys also hear a Space Marine screaming through his vox emitter aggressively when reading "abandon reason"? I do. I like it.

this game with those ludicrous decks is like a odds or evens game with extra steps

YES. A hypothetical "if you could have 4 of any card" deck. I love thinking about these kind of decks. I've built some already just haven't printed them out/ordered proxies. I love getting to play with powerful cards-one way or another.

@XYGamingRemedyG

Жыл бұрын

Also, what game/website is this?

@thomasbelcher6921

Жыл бұрын

@@XYGamingRemedyG mtgo

Great Games!

The better line on game 3 was to do the combo on their upkeep. avoids mindbreak trap and force of neg

Is there any reason (except rule of cool) not to replace one petal or mox by a land instead of playing with 0 land?

@JoshKeeling-lt7xl

Жыл бұрын

I imagine that the artefacts are played instead of lands because you can only play 1 land per turn, but multiple petals/ moxen per turn

@NikachuMTG

Жыл бұрын

Now that you say so, a Mox Sapphire probably should be a basic island.

@t3st1221

Жыл бұрын

@@JoshKeeling-lt7xl Yes but if you only play one single land then it does not matter and unlike playing a mox playing a land allows less interaction. You could even play a dual land instead of a mox to slightly improve color fixing. I could see it be a drawback if you gain something by having artifacts in play (e.g. affinity or Urza's Saga style token) or or casting spell (e.g. storm) but here that's not the case so I asked because maybe I'm missing something.

@brizobst

Жыл бұрын

I'd probably put in a Tolarian Academy

@OneEightZeroZero

Жыл бұрын

Blue/black dual land might be better than Mox cause you can pay for Ancestral Recall or Demonic Consultation with it in the Doomsday deck. Problem with lands in a deck like this is you get a card in your hand that you can't play until next turn instead of a broken 0-cost artifact or free counter or that you could be using to win right now.

Why not have a Shops deck for the contrast? :D I would love to see a pillars matchup with a combo deck, a shops deck, a tempo deck, and a control deck. Would be fascinating!

If i coukd subscribe a 2nd time i would, awesome video!!

cool video :)

Nice

I only watched this video cause Byant was in it. Great Video!!!

I remember on cockatrice this dude told me he wanted to play a casual game with no banlist. He had found a deck online that could win turn 0 with the right hand. So I asked him you’re saying 4 black lotuses is fine? And he’s like yeah. So I make a 4x power 9 deck. Some tutors and channel emrakul. Yeah I stomped him

I had an idea. Create a deck using 4 x Chancellor of the Annex and find a way to play them out fast too.

I wish we could do this on arena.

45 Ancestral Recalls and 15 Black Lotus' (when decks had no limit to the number of copies)

@battyrae1398

Жыл бұрын

whats your wincon? bankruptcy?

@VictorTheLegend

Жыл бұрын

@@battyrae1398 mill

@kevinconnors2430

Жыл бұрын

pretty bad deck

@taylon5200

Жыл бұрын

@@battyrae1398 I snorted

@aaronsmith6632

Жыл бұрын

Don't forget Thassa's Oracle!!!

Great match ^^ It's awesome to see type 1 decks rock the boat. If it's still called that? Type 1 = alle cards allowed? Dang... it's over 6 years now in which I didn't play MTG anymore. Stepped out of the money-game and forgotten nearly everything. Stay crunchy.

@v3ck1n

7 ай бұрын

In Vintage, Black Lotus and Ancestral Recall are restricted to one copy each. In Legacy, they're banned outright.

the named cards make all the difference ahahha "You are already dead", "Abandon Hope" that's priceless.

How are you mindbreak trapping off of 3 spells on the stack when your opponent only cast 2 of those spells?

Go back to when Alpha was first printed, and before the announcement of the first round of restrictions for the very first Pro Tour… 4x Black Lotus 4x Mox Sapphire 4x Mox Ruby 4x Sol Ring 4x Ancestral Recall 4x Psionic Blast 4x Timetwister 4x Time Walk 4x Lightning Bolt 4x Wheel Of Fortune Unlimited extra turns, fast mana, card draw and damage. If you get to go first and your opponent doesn’t have a Force of Will in their opening hand, they’re probably hooped. You can keep cycling through your deck and repeating burn spells ad infinitum

@NikachuMTG

5 ай бұрын

Well back then there was no Force of Will. So they were hooped.

So, what I'm seeing is that recall should just be reprinted as UU and sorcery.

What did you guys use to play this match like a website or?

I remember reading an article about this a while back, they said that the most broken deck was shops because turn 1 trinisphere shut down every combo deck

@LyleH-13

Жыл бұрын

I played shops with 4 trini before it was restricted and it was hard but not impossible to play around

@unstopable_rob

Жыл бұрын

@@LyleH-13 yes but did you have 4 black lotus and could you get them out on turn one with a force backup most of the time

@unstopable_rob

Жыл бұрын

@Lyle Hawkyard the only way to beat unrestricted shops is with an aggro deck, combo decks are week against it

@LyleH-13

Жыл бұрын

@@unstopable_rob ive played vintage since the 90s, its not impossible.

@unstopable_rob

Жыл бұрын

@Lyle Hawkyard it's not impossible but highly unlikely especially in best of 1

Id probably play this as burn. Fast mana fast card draw, counterspells and bolts. Thats it.

I would have played simething like: 4x paradoxical outcome, 4x academy, 20x original mox, 4x mana crypt, 4x sol ring, 4x lotus, 4x timetwister, 4x ancestral, 4x tinker, 4x memory jar, 4x wheel of fortune, 4x underworld breach. Maybe a couple of volcanics and a set of mox opals to improve the mana base. And some kill condition. Sideboard 8x forces if you are going second…

How about: 4x Black Lotus 4x Lotus Petal 4x Mox Opal 4x Mox Sapphire 4x Mox Ruby 4x Mox Pearl 4x Mox Emerald 4x Mox Jet 4x Ancestral Recall 4x Time Walk 4x Mystic Forge 4x Leveler 4x Thassa's Oracle 4x Wheel of Fortune 1x Sensei's Divining Top 1x Folio of Fancies 1x Tolarian Academy 1x Jace, Wielder of Mysteries

Also blue laylines could be improvements

LOL you guys cooked yourselves with the packs

How good would be angel's grace because both decks are based on selfmill?

@electra_

Жыл бұрын

seems pretty useful in my thoughts on similar kinds of things. that's why i concluded something like ad nauseum would be better than thoracle as a win condition so you could draw your whole deck and then set up a boardstate where they couldn't win (somehow infinite combo to give the opponent 10 poison so they lose as an SBA next turn maybe? also worth noting that Trickbind would allow you to counter the ETB of thoracle, serving basically the same purpose though you could also angel's grace in response to your own pact triggers to avoid losing that way, too

Why not just let the opponent's pact of negation resolve? Good luck paying 3UU

Nikachu is like if John Mulaney played Magic.

Also do one with no card limits. A deck with 20 lotuses, like in the very beginning of the game.

@trubica

Жыл бұрын

He already did that

@TheSillySils

Жыл бұрын

@@trubica Hell yeah

I wonder how good dovin's veto would be in these decks, would it be worth it? Blue white for a UNCOUNTABLE counterspell. It seems pretty good but would require building around it

@twitchster77

Жыл бұрын

2 cmc for a counter in these decks is too expensive right?

@camael4209

Жыл бұрын

@@twitchster77 yea I think so as well especially since it's 2 different pips, but uncounterable interaction would mean the card you counter will most definitely not resolve.

@camael4209

Жыл бұрын

@@twitchster77 maybe flusterstorm then?

@twitchster77

Жыл бұрын

@@camael4209 Oh no, I absolutely agree with you on the power level of Veto, I just think that it's difficult to play in these decks as holding up the UW while also trying to combo off is rough. Flusterstorm is nice...but I think Mindbreak Trap holds the same role and can be cast for free. I really feel like playing nothing but 0cmc counters is the most optimal way to go in these decks.

@thomasbelcher6921

Жыл бұрын

@@twitchster77 Pact of negation is a lot worse than it looked in their games though. If you cast it on your opponent's turn they can just let it resolve and win. Dovin's Veto would be mana neutral countering Thassa's oracle or flash and if the library was empty for Thassa's Oracle you could win by decking them.

Doomsday seems better cause you don't need so many cards for the combo itself so you can bring more utility. But also that Hulk deck has 6 spirit guides just to cast Wild Cantor if it's in your hand instead of your library instead of just bringing more Wild Cantors or Mox Jet.

Actually if you wanna do it truly go with squee as vanguard and have 10 cards hand lol (conspiracy too but a few notable choices)

Magic as Richard Garfield intended

And 4 lavinia azorius renegate

Thoracle really is insane

Yikes. I never realized how broken Gitaxian Probe is. Anyway, the sound effects added to the video's entertainment.

you gotta play with the ante cards allowed too, contract from below is possibly the strongest card ever printed

@smegmalasagna

Жыл бұрын

That is true but you might as well say that it isn’t even a card. You just reduce your decksize before the game begins. It would be less interesting.

@KILLUNOW5TIMES

Жыл бұрын

@@smegmalasagna no no, I'm saying they do play for ante, you don't remove it before it begins, you just play with the best wheel effect in the game available to you

@smegmalasagna

Жыл бұрын

@@KILLUNOW5TIMES Ah that is a very cool idea :p I'dd like to see how that would play out. I could see a storm deck with that card.

@NikachuMTG

Жыл бұрын

Sadly the ante cards don’t exist on MTGO

Where can I download this online Magic the Gathering Game?

@NikachuMTG

Жыл бұрын

Look up “download Magic Online” into Google.

@zcrixs_1780

Жыл бұрын

@@NikachuMTG Thanks 👍

They're playing a "Combo: the gathering" match.

Missed opportunity to not play 4x Mind's Desire or Trinisphere.dec.

Looks like they forgot about channel>banefire

Wait... Did you counter your own ancestral recall?

And I still say, and will always say; The best banned deck in MTG that existed is, and was: 10 black lotus, 10 channel, 10 mox emerald, 10 mox ruby, and 10 fireball. Where you sacrifice 19 life, and do over 20 damage in turn zero almost every time (the odd 'bad first draw' being the exception). It's the best banned deck, because it's the most reliably unbeatable.

@jamesharpur2246

Жыл бұрын

39 Timetwister, 20 Black Lotus, 1 Lightning Bolt

@anonacc3067

Жыл бұрын

There is a format called Alpha 40 which plays by the original rules (both deck construction and gameplay), 40 cards, no limit on number of copies, no ban/restricted list but only allows Alpha printings of cards. In this format they have gone well beyond the channel fireball plan: the mathematically optimal deck is thought to be 19 Black Lotus, 11 Timetwister, and 10 Braingeyser which wins on turn 1 99.0118% of the time. However; afaik the best deck ever actually played is Stephen Menendian's deck of 12 Ancestral Recall, 10 Mox Sapphire, 7 Time Walk, 4 Black Lotus, 4 Timetwister, 2 Black Vise, 1 Tundra. The problem with the channel fireball deck is that you have no card draw so you can't turn 1 without Channel and Fireball, plus mana sources in your opening hand. The fact that Blue Vise is 23 card draw spells and 15 mana sources makes it extremely unlikely to have a dead opener.

@buckrodgers1162

Жыл бұрын

@@anonacc3067, Like I said; It wins on turn 0 most the time. There is the odd 'bad draw' where it might take more than that. But you also have mulligans you can attempt to fix with. Turn 0 being they can't even play a single land, and have no turn. I have even built this deck in Shandalar and tested it, with very good results. And Shandalar has awful shuffle mechanics; As it loves to deck stack. With all mana grouped, and all everything else grouped.

@anonacc3067

Жыл бұрын

@@buckrodgers1162 It's not a bad deck, I'm just saying when you remove the 4x copy requirement you can much closer to a 100% turn 1 than that, therefore it's not the "best banned deck in MTG". It's also impossible that it wins on turn 0 (by your definition) "most of the time" since you're on the draw in 50% of the games and can't win in the opponent's upkeep. In fact if you include newer cards, I would bet that you could build a deck that can win in your opponent's upkeep more consistently than your deck wins on turn 1. Also lmaooo at the idea that the Shandalar shuffler stacks the deck

@buckrodgers1162

Жыл бұрын

@@anonacc3067, Well first off: If you want to take the 'coin flip' into account; Then even that is not a 'true 50/50 chance'. As even coins have a weight distribution problem, and depending on the coin design, one side will always be heavier than the other. Thus resulting in more of a 4X/5X chance. And you would be surprised at how many time I have personally seen the Shandalar shuffle mechanic result in draws that had one of the following: 1: Nothing but mana/land 2: Nothing but spells/creatures or other castables. Or 3: 2 land in the first hand, and then nothing but the aforementioned castables. And these are with decks built with the standard '60 card layout'. 30 total mana/land cards, and 30 castables.

"We built two of the most broken decks possible in MTG" but they both still share a lot of cards which says a lot

What do they use to play like this??

@NikachuMTG

Жыл бұрын

It's a client called "Magic Online"

Uh.. channel fireball is the ultimate combo deck... sheesh

Best youtuber possible?

4 x trinisphere owns you both, and being a online game your win con could be Ashnod's Coupon. 0 mana: win the game.

Hard countered by Opposition Agent lol😊

Where are the time walks?

@NikachuMTG

3 ай бұрын

I guess if you’re trying to win on turn 1, you don’t need another turn.

I think a single cavern of souls should be added

flash is legal in oathbreaker, but that format is already broken so it's fine

Paradoxical would be so broken with 4 sapphires...

Was channel banned or are these combos just better?

@NikachuMTG

7 ай бұрын

These combos are theoretically better

Imagine playing 4 angel’s grace

Now you just Flash in Atraxa instead of Protean Hulk.

@NikachuMTG

Жыл бұрын

but what is the Atraxa win?

Why isn't Thassa's Oracle banned like, everywhere?

@NikachuMTG

7 ай бұрын

A great question no one has an answer to

with the right hand, flash hulk can win on turn 0!

Nah black lotus and mox jet in ad nauseum tendrils storm. Consistent turn 1 wins.

What i have noticed is that without the free counters magic will be a HORRIBLE world

@mikotagayuna8494

Жыл бұрын

It goes both ways. Free counters also tend to protect degenerate combos. I think what makes a horrible world is having no B&R list.

Honestly hulk seems like a wrong deck choice here. It's infamously broken in fair-ish formats, but it's way too many pieces compared to doomsday. Also Angel's Grace would've been good here, as it can save you from pact triggers AND split-second thassa's effect.

a storm deck with 4 ofs would win turn 1 every time.

This is just YuGiOh

I think if you really study this format angel's grace becomes the new meta

First game was just a Mexican standoff

I should proxy these decks

First

No Rats/10

Imagine spending that much money to be bored out of your gdamn mind 😴

This just proves how much of a mistake Thassa's Oracle was. Hope it gets a ban someday

Since you flubbed game 1 (which was actually a guaranteed win despite starting on the draw), doomsday arguably won 6-2. Definitely seems better than protean hulk.

You cannot say you are playing the most powerful decks in magic if you are not playing Contract from Below

@NikachuMTG

Жыл бұрын

Well, as much as I wanted to play that card, it just doesn't exist online. As with the other ante cards.

@chrisp1946

Жыл бұрын

@@NikachuMTG I didn't know that. I have it in my cube. We just don't use the ante part. It is just a 1 black draw 7.

black lotus the most popular card in the history of magic, excuse me thats putting the bar way to low. black lotus is the most popular card in all of card gaming. its so famous that it doesn't matter what card game you play black lotus is something you recognize.

What's the most powerful deck, let's use the same deck twice... Oh wait it's the same deck, I guess we know which is the best deck

Ok so...flash hulk is worse imo because of the random creatures that do nothing while just normal oracle had all the interaction and really only lost 1 game if you actually think about it