Fantastic research and discovery. Been interested in these modules for a while. I’m surprised that behringer didn’t officially come out with this information, because so many forums discuss the bad tuning

The “Ralph Nader” of synthesizers. Spot on Tim. Great work.

Thanks for this Tim, I had a ticket in with them, but they stopped replying to my last 3 messages. You would have thought they'd let registered owners about the issue and that it was a hardware fault/tolerances

That is good news, thanks Tim. I was holding off on buying, but may reconsider one for my own KB37. Thanks for taking the time to do this for the synth community and share your findings. We really do appreciate it.

excellent video Tim, super presentation. I tested my VCO and it was showing the very same symptoms as you demonstrated here. I am slowly building my system 100 and have not used it properly as I am waiting on more modules, but after seeing this video, I decided to run the VCO through some tests, thanks too you I found out just how badly out of tune it was, my supplier happy exchanged it for me , but I am still waiting for the next shipment to be delivered, thanks again for all your great content.

Very impressive analysis Tim, thank you.

Very nice, thanks for doing this Tim! Glad to know that Behringer got this fixed. Great testing!

Very good to see Behringer fix the 112 tuning issue quickly and supporting customer returns. Not every 112 module has this problem, but its very obvious if the tuning is wrong and you need a replacement. My understanding from Behringer is that it was a component tolerance issue and not an incorrect design. Looking forward to hearing some music from these modules...and the KB37 is a great bit of kit!

Excellent video, thank you!

When I had my Yamaha CS-40M (in at the time an unheated garage studio) I did an experiment at 4 degrees celcius. From a cold start, all octaves were only off by about 12 cents. In about 4 minutes the deviation was gone. Something to be said for those old LINEAR Yamaha VCO synths. My MS-20Kit, even though linear as well, has no such awesome cold weather starts!

@roberttingelof6169

3 жыл бұрын

I've had my CS40 for 20 years and it still hasn't gone out of tune.

@DestroyER82

3 жыл бұрын

Tim actually tested his CS-15 some time ago along with other both old and new synths. CS-15 was on completly different level and not even comparable against other VCO's how stable it is. And I have same experience with both my CS-15D and CS-10, amazing hardware.

@AdamTheAd-vanc3d

3 жыл бұрын

@@DestroyER82 Oh ok. From what I've heard volts/hz is supposed to be more stable.

@DestroyER82

3 жыл бұрын

@@AdamTheAd-vanc3d Yes it definitly is, because you are completly skipping exponential converter which can be one of failing points for drifting. Also Yamaha CS VCO's are absolutely unique and completely different from others how they are designed. If interested - more to see and hear in this vid by GOLT!: kzread.info/dash/bejne/mGSYsZmkeM_HnbQ.html

Thanks for your input, thanks for your being thorough. I'd love to seeif they're moog inspired ones have any issues

I'm glad to see this, because I was very interested in the System 100 modules but decided to hold off until there was some clarity on the tuning issue. I did notice that there was some variance in the tuning on my Poly D- lower notes were a few semitones out of tune low, and the higher octaves were a few semitones out of tune high. I didn't m measure it as thoroughly as this, as I was unsure whether that was expected behavior or not. Now I am curious to know whether anyone else has noticed it with there Poly D, and to be a little more methodical about documenting it.

Thank you very much for this video! Great research!

I'm very glad this video had a happy ending.

Funny thing is I had this exact same problem with my original Roland System 100 that I bought in the late 90s. It was the semi-modular one (101 & 102). I never opened it up, or resolved it but there probably were little trimpots inside!

The problem is procuring the required high tolerance resistors I would imagine, that have the required temperature stability. And of course we know that some foreign suppliers do not exactly have quality control. I have the warm up issue with the Model D. But hey that is true to the original design. Thankfully in the UK at this time of year we can heat our homes to the perfect 22 degree C. If it gets really cold watch those VCO drift, like wise when we had 30+ degree C. Solution as is the case for server rooms and telecoms equipment rooms air conditioning. But indeed for that bad batch, either a circuit mistake or bad components not meeting spec.

Thanks Tim, I had the same problem with my 110's. Phoned my retailer and they have agreed to either refund or swap

Thanks Tim I thought I was going mad or that the modual needed some kind of pitch quantiser to make it work properly .

Great video

I did a video on the module on 23rd July and identified the tuning issues. I sent a support ticket in to them 3rd August regarding the tuning and calibration. What I find extremely disappointing is the response I received was: "Unfortunately we do not have a calibration procedure as yet for this unit, however this is somethingwe are looking at. I will forward this information to our development team to look into further." ... I have not received a follow-up. Nothing. Yet other people have received calibration procedures, and you seem to have some special relationship with Behringer to get this sort of answer out of them. I'm still waiting on an answer ...

@TimShoebridge

3 жыл бұрын

I have not personally heard of anyone being given an official calibration procedure from Behringer/MusicTribe, but I have heard of people successfully calibrating their modules based on their own eurorack expertise and shared experience. Check out this page and the others in the topic for plenty of helpful information: www.gearslutz.com/board/modular-mania-all-things-eurorack-and-modular-synths-effects/1294855-behringer-system-100-modular-synthesizer-15.html

@KNHSynths

3 жыл бұрын

@@TimShoebridge I've got the same problem with my first 112 and I got a calibration procedure from Behringer, but frankly, despite my experience, I did not succeed to tune it correctly on several octaves. So I returned my unit and was refunded, then I find another one elsewhere but it seems to be of the same "bad era". I have not tried to recalibrate this one because I was sure the problem was bigger than a simple bad tunning. Your video is a good confirmation of the problem, thanks! I'll wait a bit to buy another one to be sure it is a currated one. (here a link to the calibration procedure I received , this can be useful, the link is pointing to the file in my dropbox, it's a Word DOC file : www.dropbox.com/s/pnvcmvujk3qditl/P0DW2%20%28112%20Dual%20VCO%29%20Tuning%20procedure.doc?dl=0)

@TimShoebridge

3 жыл бұрын

@@KNHSynths Thanks a lot for sharing 👍

Thank you, good to know !

Thanks for the information Tim it was very interesting. I was hoping for better quality control from Behringer regarding their clone modules, especially as they appear to be really trying hard to make their mark against all the naysayers, so to hear this is rather a disappointment. I sincerely hope you have had no other major issues with the other modules... if you have it would be equally illuminating to know about those too. I must say also, I feel Behringer should have recalled the earlier units if they were that faulty.

Glad Behringer fixed it, and so promptly, but there are other issues arising in other products, MIDI sync on the RD8 for example. There's room for Behringer in the marketplace and I'm happy for them to do what they do, for the most part, but maybe slow down a little on the release cycles Uli and get things right first time!

Great videos Tim. I’m about ready to invest! I love the reverb/delay processing you use. Can you tell us what brand/model(s) of effects you use? Thanks

Unfortunately, I was one of the early adopters so also have a VCO module that doesn't track that well either. However, I've found a fix which is to calibrate the tuning using the Expert Sleepers voice controller plug-in with my DC coupled audio interface (UA Apollo 8) then save the tuning as a patch for the plug-in. It tracks really well now and probably would track better than the module would itself as it compensates across the range. Technically, I'm calibrating the interface rather than the specific VCO but it works the same. This is fine for playing via a DAW but the issue would remain if I wanted to use the 182 sequencer or indeed any other Eurorack sequencer.

I reckon after more and more hours of use and, the components mature tuning will be become alot more stable/ predictable. I dare say Behringer gav e the modules a burn in. Anyway fantastic analysis Tim.

Thanks for taking the time to calmly explore this issue. Do you know if there is a serial number/ batch number after which the 'new' modules can be identified?

@TimShoebridge

3 жыл бұрын

You're very welcome. There are bar codes on the packaging but I don't see a serial number as such so I'm not sure if there is a way to tell without actually playing the module...

How do I know if I purchased an old 112 VCO ?

Trouble is - every retailer (including the one I ordered from) is saying the VCO is out of stock, so how can we get it replaced?

Just out of curiosity, what brand and length of cable do you use? Looks like Hosa cables, in two different lenghths.

I had this with both the Model D and Neutron they seem to have got a huge amount better over the last 6 months over time, they still have to warm up, but whwn warmed up they return to pitch and hold over 3 octaves, I have thought about calibrating but TBH Im just using them in that range anyhow

@AdamTheAd-vanc3d

3 жыл бұрын

Hmmm intresting. Perhaps as I said in my comment the components need a little time to mature and settle. I defonitly had this experience with a VCO I designed ish and built myself. I dont think any of the VCOs in the Neuteon or the Model D use a heated transistor array in the expo converter . Bring back the ua726 I say.

@wolfgangmerx

3 жыл бұрын

I discussed this with Stuart on Twitter, too. My Neutron also had tuning issues, but somehow the OS update fixed those as far as I can tell.

@err4071

2 жыл бұрын

My Neutron tracks dead-center pitch across 7 octaves. it doesn't seem to drift whatsoever. i give it a 10 to 15-minute warm-up after that it's perfect. i use reason 12 with the built-in tuner active all the time and it doesn't move from dead center.

@StuartRussellsynths

2 жыл бұрын

@@err4071 Yes my two are now stable- firmware update seemed to help quite a bit. I have a plug in chromatic tuner which I use to monitor the oscs

thanks!! so Ho do we know what version of module we received? any part number (or anything else) so we can recognise is it new or old version

@TimShoebridge

3 жыл бұрын

I don't think there is a part number or serial number to distinguish. I guess you'll only know by the tuning when you start playing it...

did behringer give you the new module or did you have to buy it? in the US it's a huge pain to get your hands on these so i ended up getting an older one.

The old module could be synced to the new one, so you can still make use of it.

Any chance you could put a close up picture of the back of the module showing the circuit board? I'd love to see what they've done.

@TimShoebridge

3 жыл бұрын

The only difference I can see on the rear relates to soldering. I think the real differences are going to be on the inner side of that PCB and so not visible without taking the thing apart.

@TaklaMakanMusic

3 жыл бұрын

@@TimShoebridge Yes, it was the soldering that I was interested in. The single circuit board has both VCO core circuits on it, one on the front facing side, and one on the rear. However, the rear side also contains the circuitry that controls the pitch of both VCOs, in particular that bit that has the temperature compensation. The old one had only one type of temperature compensation (that controls absolute frequency), while the new one, presumably has both types of compensation needed for relatively drift free tuning (ie. for both scaling and absolute frequency). That should be visible on the rear side of the board so should be seen without taking it apart.

@elbalajazz

3 жыл бұрын

@@TaklaMakanMusic I was wondering the same thing, by chance the changes according to him, are seen on the other side of the circuit (???) ... if he were more meticulous he would have opened the module and would have shown us the changes, for my part I think this information is false; no official information has been said and on top of that he didn't answer you

@TaklaMakanMusic

3 жыл бұрын

@@elbalajazz I have been in contact with Tim and seen a picture of the underside of the module. I can confirm that work has been done and it does look similar to the temperature compensation modification I presented on Gearslutz and Muffwiggler. The reworked modules that Tim has are engineering prototypes from the UK design team and are not representative of the next revision of manufactured modules. How one will be able to tell between the new versions and the old I do not know - other than using it for a short while.

Is there a reference number / product code that can be used to identify what the retailer is actually selling? So that when we buy it, we can recognize its updates series, go to the checkout and have a good night of sleep?...

@TimShoebridge

3 жыл бұрын

I'm not sure that there is to be honest. Personally I think the best thing to do is talk to the retailer before purchasing, just make them aware of the issue with early modules so they can be prepared for a return in the event that the one they sell you is old stock and has the issue. You'll definitely know if yours has the issue after playing it for half an hour or so.

The Roland System 100 is not famous for keeping the tune. The fault lies in the exponetial converter you can trim all you want it wont matter much. You have to add a temco 3300ppm ( though i have to look at the schematic to give a real answer). this is only a guess. Good to hear that they fixed it.

Hi Tim, I know I'm a bit late to the party, any chance you can add images of the back of both units so we can make comparisons?

Thank you Tim, any idea about the 110 oscillator, are they stable?

@TimShoebridge

3 жыл бұрын

I have not heard of any problems with the 110, and all the 112's now in production are stable too.

V Interesting - I have a brand new System 35/55 B921B which is doing EXACTLY the same as your 112 was......

thanks Tim, I will do a follow-up article about it with your video :)

From the looks of my 112 which I purchased in August '22 there is no way to check the manufacturing date. Neither the box or the module shows any info on this. Is it purely drift over-time that tells you or the positioning of the tuning dials? Both tuning dials on mine are pointing in different directions when they tune in. Is that normal? one is pointing at roughly 2 o'clock where the other is more like 3 o'clock. Any help or advice would be appreciated. I doubt that an older revision could still be available in 2022, but there's no easy way to check.

@TimShoebridge

Жыл бұрын

Hi, it's normal across all purely analogue gear for the potentiometers to not be exactly aligned. It either bothers you or it doesn't but it's not a fault. Basically the way to tell if your module is an old copy with the fault or not is to see if it keeps drifting out of tune all the time. Give the module 30 minutes to warm up, then tune it to a reference tone from a keyboard, synth, or use a tuner. Then check again after another 30 minutes. If your module has the fault then it will have drifted out of tune significantly to the point that it sounds just plain wrong.

@t3chnod3lic

Жыл бұрын

@@TimShoebridge Wonderful Tim, thanks for your help. I thought the pots being in different places seemed odd when they are both the same VCO. I have a tuning app on my phone, so I will check this out. Huge thanks again! P.S Please do more System100 videos. I would love to know how to link other synths (crave/neutron) as I don't understand how triggering works, whether it's automatic or manual. I don't have a midi to cv module, so have to do this with patch cables. Hope you find the time.

spreadsheets, now we're talking... I hope there's a pivot table.

There's no global & automatic replacement policy from Behringer? At least are they thinking to give us the serial numbers of the bad modules?

@elbalajazz

3 жыл бұрын

there's no confirmation from behringer that there are a "new" module 112, this you tuber says fake news

Hi Tim. I am having this issue with two of these modules that I purchased. Who did you speak to at Behringer? I need to have mine fixed as well. Thanks.

@TimShoebridge

2 жыл бұрын

Hi, your best bet is to contact the retailer you bought them from. It is their responsibility to replace any units that are not functioning as expected. If they replace them with new stock then there will not be a problem.

My Micromoog is a wilder detuner .

I have tested two of my 112s up and running for more than 15 mins. Tuned in a C3. C2 and C1 gave me a +2 cents, C4 -4 cents, and C5 -5 cents. Is that an expected result for these oscillators (bought in 2021/2022)?

@TimShoebridge

2 жыл бұрын

What's the tuning like after 90 minutes? If you retune after 90 minutes and they hold their tune well from that point on then I think you are good 👍

@dustop3r

2 жыл бұрын

@@TimShoebridge After 2 hours I had C3 +2, C4 -4 and C5 -6 cents.

I just got a 112 module and the PCB is green instead of the brownish colour of the other ones I've got from this series and the one you're showing. Does that mean it's newer, older or it has nothing to do? Do you know? I got it new from Thomann, but I remember buying an MS-101 long after it was rebranded as MS-1 and I got the 101, so you never know.

@TimShoebridge

2 жыл бұрын

To be honest I'm not sure how significant the colour of the PCB is. I think there will be a version number, or a revision number, stamped on the PCB somewhere which could give the best indication of how old or new your module is. Let me know and I can compare it to mine. But the simplest thing to do is to just use it, either it will stay in tune or it won't, give it time to warm up of course but you should be able to tell how usable it is.

@juanmico4085

2 жыл бұрын

@@TimShoebridge Thanks Tom, yes the calibration is way off. Even the adjacent semitones from the one I tune are already significantly out of tune, but it doesn't seem to be affected by temperature at all. I'll just take some time to calibrate it. Edit: For the record, the 112 was perfectly fine. Turns out it was the 2HP midi-to-cv module that tracks like s**t and is on its way back to the retailer.

It wasn't a bug, it was an un-documented feature. The old versions, with the 'feature', are probably going to become collector's items one day.

Show us your favorite patches!

It sounds SO rich

Since the deviation between the tones did not change, it seems your first unit just wasn't calibrated.

@TimShoebridge

3 жыл бұрын

Not sure what you mean by deviation between tones...? My understanding is that all units are calibrated at the factory. The issue is temperature sensitivity. If the conditions were different when calibrated to those when the module is actually used then the calibration is basically void.

@flightvision

3 жыл бұрын

@@TimShoebridge Yes I think the calibration was missing, too and that shouldn't happen of course. But it looks to me that the spread between the notes was pretty even after warmup so this would maybe have been fixable by calibration with the trim potis alone? Or was the hardware really changed in the 2nd batch you got?

@TimShoebridge

3 жыл бұрын

flightvision They confirmed to me that they identified an issue and have replaced components 👍

Is this you playing in the new Eels video? : kzread.info/dash/bejne/d4aYqrCnYdfNl6Q.html

Warm up for 15 minutes to (!) an hour? Isn't that a deal-breaker to some of you?

Why would they sell something they KNEW was broken….

@TimShoebridge

2 жыл бұрын

Products can get into the distribution chain before a fault is detected or reported. Unless the product has a serial number, which these mass produced modules don’t, then there is no practical way to identify those with faults. It’s the same for all manufacturers and products.

The first module was fine. You just didn't adjust the CV in attenuator correctly, making the octaves too wide. On mine you have to set it at around 9.5 to have it track properly. If there was second version of the module, it was only to make it foolproof for users who have less experience with tuning and calibrating oscillators

@TimShoebridge

3 жыл бұрын

I did actually spend thirty minutes or so fiddling around with that tiny attenuator to see if I could get the module to play in tune. There was simply not enough fine control to get it right, and to be honest I think it might be fair to assume that a VCO module should play in tune without a lot of manual hit-and-miss adjustment on the front panel, at least that is my assumption based on experience with the other VCO modules I've used. I'm not at all against your suggestion, it's a workaround if you can get it to work well enough, but I couldn't.

Not surprising, you get what you paid for!