That's a great point about the 16-panel pages. The idea that it was a solution to having more story than the allotted page count would normally handle.

The line about SIN CITY being the point at which Miller finally became confident in his inking makes a lot of sense to me.

Scioli is that Knowledge God.

Tom is on fire in this video! His observations blew my fuckin mind, man! I'm in my studio now, slightly disturbed, thinkin about pearls n shit...

@CartoonistKayfabe

5 жыл бұрын

It only gets better!

I think that probably one of the biggest artistical influences for this comic book is Hugo Pratt's Corto Maltese series, and Pratt's work in general. From the inking, to the panel grid, to even the colour, kind of resonate with Maltese. He even homages it calling the island that is bombed in the fourth chapter Corto Maltese. A great, great european comic book. Greetings from Spain!

@davescomics4824

4 жыл бұрын

Yes, great cartooning, my friend David Roach loves his work

*Clicks notification* Oh, wait. *Pause* *Gets up and grabs copy of DKR* Okay, I'm ready.

Scioli's genuine glee gets me so hyped to re-re-re-re-re-read this thing again.

I remember reading that Miller was mugged at least three times when he lived in NYC, so I can definitely see that being a factor with all the Bernie Goetz/Guardian Angels stuff in DKR.

Biggest influential comic in my life, hands down. Glad to hear such an in-depth discussion & looking forward to the next part

27:01 That panel seems greatly inspired by Trevor Von Eeden's Thriller 'shadow across the face' image: thrillerthecomic.files.wordpress.com/2013/08/thriller-03-00-fc.jpg

Cool episode. I remember buying DK issue 2 off the stands and what a profound effect it had on me as a 13-year-old. Also, how late issues 3 and 4 were, it felt like they took forever to come out. At my LCS at the time I remember the old timers complaining about Miller's art and how much they hated it, and how odd I thought that was. This book ushered in the 'prestige format,' which I don't think existed before Dark Knight and was followed by Chaykin's Blackhawk. People always talk about Dark Knight and Watchmen, but Chaykin's Shadow came out around the same time, and though it hasn't been referenced or reprinted as much (probably because of rights and the ownership of the character) I think it's as good and as influential as either, so big ups for mentioning Flagg and Chaykin's influence on comics at the time.

Huge fan of the channel but I was a johnny come lately, only got on board about a year ago. I decided a few weeks ago to go back to the origin and have been working my way through from the start. Have to say Scoili is the shiz at breaking these themes down and communicating it back, I was floored by his Domu-Akira/West Side Story reference but couldn't believe I missed that cum-shot in the origin-flashback especially considering we have the Elektra/SA reference with BullsEye only a few years earlier. Also just wanted to note for other future-flashbackers I just re-read this issue in the Absolute Edition and that bubble snaffo is fixed (didn't like that) and that the whole Frank Miller intro included in this format is about the moral panic so again Tom on the money!

@4:17 couldn't agree more with Tom's take on FM's "legibility". Elektra: Assassin was a good example of that, took me at least 3 reads to really grasp what was going on.

On Jason's death in this book and how him dying might have reflected voters for Death in the Family, the interesting thing is that Danny O'Neil talked about this shortly after Jason was resurrected in Under the Red Hood, but that the actual number of to kill votes winning was very slim -- something like 700 votes difference in tens of thousands of calls. He also talked about how he found out later on that there were people who were sort of scamming the process, who used a caller-bot or something to make dozens of calls in the "to kill" line, implying that the margin might have been even slimmer than that.

@CartoonistKayfabe

5 жыл бұрын

Still can be all Kayfabe. Wouldn't want people who spent $1.99 a minute to realize they had no say and threw money into a hole.

I always thought the mutants and their glasses were a dig at Cyclops and the X-Men more than the day's fashion.

@mcfoodstamp

5 жыл бұрын

Same. Of course I read this as a kid and that was my first frame of reference for the word (also TMNT) but it makes sense that Miller would play on that. I think Eastman and Laird were using the popularity of the X-Men at the time when they picked the word "mutant" in the title of their comic.

Love Cartoonist Kayfabe!! keep it coming!

Love this! You guys are so awesome. Keep it up!

Interesting to hear them discuss the EC influence at 41:27. Russ Cochran had been publishing those hardcover reprints of EC titles since the late 70s, which must have inspired a lot of those early/mid eighties artists, right?

If Miller is looking at psychology ironically can you read the doctors words on Batman literally? I always thought it read as doctors looking at everything but the violence Bruce saw, etc.

a worldclass education!

Bifurcate rolls off the kid's tongue but distributor makes him stumble. You're crazy for this one Ed!

I just found your channel, awesome stuff! I love hearing your insider comments and opinions EDIT also, this was one of those seminal formative works for me as it has been for many in their youth, thanks for breaking it down!

Wow. That original art must be like a million dollars.

40:00 following this train of thought does this imply Bruce witnessed the rape of his mother while being mugged? The pearls we always see in the origin may be code. Maybe Bruce has repressed this memory and instead remembers a necklace as a symbol of what happened to her.

Still a wow book

33:58 I have to disagree on Frank Miller making that into a case against capitalism, the scene is about a pimp paying the taxi driver to make use of the backseat to teach the girl a lesson- Batman comes in and takes care of the abusive pimp- now think of how if you were a penciller how you would handle the scene because you still have to complete the story- one Batman walks away - that would suggest the Cab driver got away with the money and profiting from being less morally scrupulous. two Batman takes the cash and walks away- cab driver gets his punishment but it comes off as Batman is pocketing the cash. the third as its been drawn and presented is the only way it can work out from what I gather, Batman showing the cab driver that its wrong to look away or not taking action when you can do something and be a person of principle not swayed by the base temptations or urges. Which doesnt equate to anti-Capitalism, which I would concede if the theme were more repeated. But I dont find it being a common motif.

Did anyone mention that Jaime Hernandez’s female Robin drawing inspired Carrie Kelly? Is that true?

What’s that gigantic, oversized, black and white edition in the center foreground? That looks even larger than the usual oversized dimensions.

10:58 regarding the art deco in 80s comics - agreed. Matt Wagner had the art style all over every page of Grendel: Devil by the Deed. 2.bp.blogspot.com/-k_W1BW8ZEBk/VPCziPHjMWI/AAAAAAAABPU/vNRWwwRmh6Q/s1600/Devil%2Bby%2BDeed%2B01.jpeg

Great format! Would love to see more "book club" style videos in the near future. Please give us a couple weeks heads up so we can reread/read for the first time in time for the video :D

@CartoonistKayfabe

5 жыл бұрын

Listen to our Weekly Shoots. We've been teasing this for a month.

@mrtang18

5 жыл бұрын

@@CartoonistKayfabe Oops... busted! 😭

The taxi driver also looks a lot like John Byrne did. Miller's commentary on jobbers?

i had to look up the word bifercate

The only panel recycle that I ever noticed was the Carrie Kelly closeup in the rollercoaster sequence, after the robot inventor gets decapitated. She's crying and snotting one panel, then being pretty chipper the next, so it seemed especially jarring.

@CartoonistKayfabe

5 жыл бұрын

There are plenty more of them, usually tv screens.

@drewweing

5 жыл бұрын

@@CartoonistKayfabe Oh no doubt, that's just the only one that ever jumped out at me.

Which Hawkeye book was Tom Scioli referencing in the beginning?

@CartoonistKayfabe

5 жыл бұрын

Ross Barnett the one with the dog. Can’t bother to google it over here to get you the issue number though.

@DforDembol

5 жыл бұрын

I think it's the Brubaker/Aja run from a couple years back. It's pretty cool stuff

@ShogunZIlla

5 жыл бұрын

Tom King & Mitch Gerard’s recent Mister Miracle series that won all the awards also uses similiar grids &repetition

I loved RONIN! always will! in some ways it is better then Dark Knight Returns. it inspired the $h!t out of me!