Pat Goodman is a Fayetteville local known for establishing hard, scary trad routes. We talk about one of his more memorable FAs, Ishmael 5.13 R/X, near Boone, NC, about the time he onsight soloed Scenic Cruise at the Black Canyon, what is was like to climb Lotus Flower Tower in Cirque of the Unclimbables again after 18 years, and what he's motivated about these days. Jessa Goebel grew up in North Carolina and started climbing at the age of 9. Soon after, she was competing in national and international competitions, before switching her focus to climbing outside, especially highball boulder problems. We talk about why she gravitated towards climbing, why she loves living in Fayetteville, WV, and how she deals with injuries as she grows older.   Music by Small Houses: smallhouses.band/