My grandfather played on the Wizkid Philadelphia Phillies. He was my best friend and I miss him every day. He always said Willie Mays was the greatest ball player of all time, until Bonds came around... Anything Barry Bonds related reminds me of him, and I sincerely appreciate this series. I watched every episode, and enjoyed it immensely.

@devondawkins5492

Жыл бұрын

That's cool. I remember I met a member of the Bash Brothers A's and Birmingham. I love the older uniforms and hearing the stories they have

Pre Roids Bonds was already a top 30 baseball player of all time and may I add he was facing pitchers who were on steroids as well

@dukedematteo1995

Жыл бұрын

Steroids help batters more. But yes Bonds was an inner sanctum HOFer before steroids.

@lovelessissimo

Жыл бұрын

If he was so good, why did he roid up?

@dukedematteo1995

Жыл бұрын

@@lovelessissimo bc there was no downside to doing so at the time

@lovelessissimo

Жыл бұрын

@Duke DeMatteo apart from the rule violations, the negative side effects of steroid use are the same then as they are now. Like irritability, unstable moods, divorce, and a HOF snub.

@dukedematteo1995

Жыл бұрын

@lovelessissimo physical side effects ..yes. HOF snub? Absolutely not. Fans and media didn't give a shit about the morality of PED use until after Balco.... when hysteria ensued and the whole baseball world 180'd on the issue going from completely indifferent to zealous anti PED crusaders and Character Clause reinterpretation enthusiasts.

I traveled to Candlestick Park in April of 1994, and saw Bonds' Giants take on Ozzie Smith and the Cardinals. I had my trusty camera, and snapped a photo of Bonds at bat. I wrote him a letter, asking him to sign the photo. Not only was he the only player out of around 30 I did this to to send something back to me, he wrote a fairly long letter, and made me feel like he appreciated me being a fan of his. Steroids can only make you hit the ball harder, further, and faster. His plate awareness is better than anyone else, and steroids can do nothing for that. My experience with Bonds is different than others, but I think he deserves to be in the Hall. Thank you for this series. It's been awesome to revisit my teenage years again.

@Fnargl99

5 ай бұрын

" His plate awareness is better than anyone else, and steroids can do nothing for that" the cognitive affects of steroids are well documented. and yes testosterone does allow you to see the ball better.

That Barry Bonds and Dale Murphy aren't in the Hall of Fame makes the Hall of Fame completely illegitimate. If Bonds is out because he's a jerk, Murphy should be in because he was a two time MVP and a wonderful person that no one has ever had a bad thing to say about.

@mikehawkins9114

Жыл бұрын

Shut up dale Murphy

@davewills94

Жыл бұрын

A great example of the "Character clause" being total BS and arbitrary. Bonds doesn't get in because he's a jerk, yet has no-brainer stats- Dale doesn't because his stats aren't the flashiest, yet was a GREAT ambassador of the game and his peak was amazing.

@GLee-oe3op

Жыл бұрын

@@davewills94 you gotta have both

@Deezy26925

Жыл бұрын

Stats alone make the candidate. Character gets you in. Dale was 1/2

@stuffbenlikes

Жыл бұрын

@@Deezy26925 He was the best player in baseball for 2 straight years, and up there for several more. If that isn't worthy of the Hall, nothing is.

I would love to see a series like this for Alex Rodriguez

@Deezy26925

Жыл бұрын

A Rod is a hof'r. Sucks that you gotta make non players happy if you want a bust. Jeter never put up the stats but he shmoozed enough writers to weasel his way in. HOF is a joke!

@TheOGSticks11

3 ай бұрын

​@@Deezy26925 Derek Jeter?!? A 5 time champion with 3,000 hits? His fielding was so-so, we all know that. But not a HOF'er is a hot take that burns me a bit. What stats was he short on?

@user-hg9po4gp8b

3 ай бұрын

ARod was suspended twice Bonds was never suspended,sorry

In 2002 I took my first born son to one of many Giants games we attended that year and he was only 5 at the time but he loved The City and especially PacBell Park (now Oracle). We'd get there early and I always bought a couple of MLB baseballs before the game as my son was trying to get his first autograph of any Giants player. We had really good seats this one time, (section 121, about 4 rows up from the Giants dugout). As my son and I watched batting practice my son was in awe of the sheer power of major league hitters and who comes out of the batting cage and heading to the dugout? Jeff Kent. Kent is walking towards my son (I'm sitting in a chair behind my son reading the Giants program as my boy leans over the fence separating the field from the stands with a baseball in one hand and a ballpoint pen in the other)...he quickly asks me, "who's that coming daddy?" I look up from the program and see who it is and I say, "That's Jeff Kent, be respectful." I see my son extend the ball and pen as Kent comes closer to the dugout and my son says in his sweet little voice, "Mr. Kent, may I have your autograph please?" Kent looks up at my son (who is quite adorable if I do say so myself, with his Giants cap that's a little too big for him), and Kent looks back down and walks into the dugout without saying anything. I see my son's shoulders deflate as I sit behind him. A part of me burns that Kent did not even acknowledge my boy....when out of nowhere, this other Giant comes up from the dugout where I couldn't see and stands up directly in front of my son....my son looks up at this giant of a man and my son's Giants hat nearly falls off from looking directly up towards the sky from the size of this man....but my son doesn't ask me who THIS Giant is....because he already knows....Barry fricken Bonds! Even I stand up to make sure I'm seeing what I'm seeing and as my son begins to say, "May I have your autograph, Mr. Bonds...." Barry had already taken the ball out of my son's hand and was signing the ball for him! He hands the ball back to my son and fixes my boys Giants cap that was falling off. Bonds smiles and winks at my son, as I can't see my son's face because I'm behind him, but I'm sure his mouth is agape in awe. Barry goes to walk back in the dugout and my son catches himself and shouts louder than he wanted to, "THANK YOU MR. BONDS!!" My son turns around and with a victorious smile I will remember till the day I die...triumphantly extends his hand for me to see his signed Barry Bonds baseball. I walk over to where my son was standing and I try to peer into the dugout but I couldn't see Bonds from my perspective. From that moment, my son didn't want any more autographs. We walked to our seats 4 rows up and we sat together and admired the autograph he received from someone he didn't expect to receive it from. My son still has the ball to this day encased in a UV-protected acrylic cube. He's 24 years old now and it sits on his desk in his room in my house. He's currently in college studying computer science (like his old man) and comes home for the summer and holidays but for my son and me, we'll always be grateful to Barry Bonds for that memory. Yea, I know he was juicing and that's how he was able to break Aaron's record and all....but the way I see it, A LOT of players were on steroids. So I can't place judgment on a guy when we don't know what the actual percentage of players were on juice at the time. I mean, if Barry is on juice and the pitcher he's facing is also on juice (like Eric Gagne)....doesn't that make it a level playing field? That's the way I see it anyway....and I know I'm being partial towards Barry for the way he treated my son....but there's a lot to say for a man KNOWN for not signing autographs to sign an autograph for a 5-year-old kid....especially when it's your kid. In my humble and heavily biased opinion, Barry Bonds is a Hall of Famer. Bar none.

@TheProdigy_916

Жыл бұрын

I have a similar story where I was the kid. It stories like yours that show the man wasn’t evil like some make him out to be. He was complicated. As we all are. He just had a microscope on him from age 18 and on. He’s judged way to harshly. An evil man doesn’t give you and your son a story like you have. Thanks for sharing.

This is definitely one of the best sports mini-series that's on KZread

Amazing series guys, literally a 100% round up of one of the most famous athletes in sports

Bonds, Sosa, McGwire, and Clemens are in a tough spot. Young people never saw them and think they just cheated. Old writers are sanctimonious and refuse to admit the truth. Truth is cheat or not, baseball wouldn't be what it is today without them. They literally saved baseball. I was a kid in the 90's and 2000's and they plus Griffey are why I still love the game today. They should be in for keeping baseball alive, not to mention their stats. Roids in an era where teams worth of players did roids should not keep them out.

@dukedematteo1995

Жыл бұрын

Young people are way more forgiving about all this nonsense ..

A couple points that I've thought about since you guys started this series five weeks ago: 1. Having been to Cooperstown myself, I can tell you that beyond the great hall in the center, it's essentially a museum. Barry Bonds' contributions to baseball, no matter how contentious they may be, do deserve to be enshrined among the history of the game as a reminder of a particular time in history when home run records were being shattered every other season. 2. Jose Bautista will never get into the hall of fame with his stats, but he helped bring on a new generation of players who are not shy to be emotional on the field. Similarly, a large swathe of old timers (including Goose Gossage) hate Jose Bautista to this day and his influence on the next generation of "sportsmanship" and "integrity" in the game. Barry Bonds might be a polarizing player, but he can also be in the conversation for one of the most influential in the history of the game. 3. Consider Curt Schilling: 3200+ innings pitched, 3100+ strikeouts, 200+ wins. And unlike Barry Bonds, playoff success: 3x world series champion, NLCS and World Series MVP's. Curt Schilling is a hall of famer before his tirade's and unconventional behavior. But this controversy only really surfaced AFTER his playing career. Barry Bonds was an ass to reporters, his teammates, his significant other, and was forced to testify under oath in the US Supreme Court....while still being an active player. If Curt Schilling isn't a hall of famer, I find it impossible to include Barry Bonds as well. Great work on the series too! I was genuinely surprised by how much Barry Bonds lore I did not know already through rabbit holes and other content creators. This series covering the whole story presents both sides of the discussion fairly and reminding us that this debate is far more complicated than anyone makes it out to be.

@Bozar069

Жыл бұрын

100% on point 3. They should both be in imo but Schilling not being in is a bigger crime.

@kazera3282

Жыл бұрын

Excellent take. Well at least Harold Baines eventually got elected.. am i right? 😂 JUSTICE SERVED. ALL IS RIGHT IN THE UNIVERSE? Sigh......

This has been such an informative, well paced, and rounded series. Thanks so much for all the effort that I think is obvious you put into it. I hope you decide to do more long form things like this in the future.

Awesome Video, Awesome Series!👍 I grew up in Pittsburgh during Bonds' career there. 1992 still makes me sad, and hope one day that will change. Let's Go Bucs!!!

The biggest reason Bonds isn't in the HoF is because everybody loves talking about why he isn't / whether he should be in the HoF! Anyway, great series. Really enjoyed it.

Lifelong Bonds fan here. Watched probably 90% of his career Giants ABs. You couldn’t have better summarized a more complicated human being. Mission accomplished. Thank you for making this.

its the hall of fame, not hall of morally righteous. He was the greatest player to ever pick up a bat, hands down.

@VidaBlue317

Жыл бұрын

Barry is Exhibit A of why many companies are shit. The best talent is often not the most likeable.

@coolbreeze4249

Жыл бұрын

These righteous mfs think athletes don’t use peds and cheat other ways every day 😂

Bud Selig is in HoF that there says it all let bonds in

Great series guys, Barry Bonds is a no brainer HOF

Barry Bonds pre 1997: 91.8 bWAR .408 OPB .551 SLG That said, I myself would feel uncomfortable casting my vote for someone with multiple credible DV accusations. That dosen't seem like the kind of person I would feel okay celebrating. I'd like to see a similar one of these for Roger Clemens. I feel like even though we hear about Clemens and Bonds as a group, we almost never talk about Clemens.

@jorgeangulo6282

Жыл бұрын

Ty Cobb is in the hall and he beat up a guy in a wheelchair because he called Cobb a racial epithet

@VACATETHE48

Жыл бұрын

I think Clemens isn't mentioned as much as Bonds is because he doesn't hold any notable records. He doesn't have a lead in any counting stat, even among contemporaries. Maddux has more career wins and innings pitched. Johnson has more career strikeouts. Pedro has a better career ERA+ and FIP. Although he had some really good seasons, he never had a season where you could look at it and say "this is the best pitched season of all time." He was just top 3 for so unbelievably long, but never had that true dominate peak where he massacred the league like Maddux, Johnson or Pedro did.

@jorgeangulo6282

Жыл бұрын

@@VACATETHE48 what? He's 3rd overall for war for pitchers, a better winning % than Maddox, 3rd in ks, has a better era+ than Maddox, second most times leading era with 7, and the most Cy young awards with 7.

@VACATETHE48

Жыл бұрын

That's fantastic and all, but it still isn't the case like Bonds where if you look at the stats alone, he's unequivocally the greatest hitter in MLB history and also had the best peak. I don't think the same argument can be made for Clemens. Top 10? Definitely. But greatest? Eh... WAR for pitchers is also really suspect. I wouldn't use that for a tool as there's wide disagreements on how to calculate pitching WAR at this time.

Greg Maddux said Barry was the easiest guy to pitch to. You throw four pitches out of the strike zone.....you walk him. And this coming from a legend who barely walked anyone each year..

great series guys, good work!

Really enjoyed this series. Did a lot to help me better understand Bonds.

Pls do this exact series on arod u guys deserve so much praise for these productions

I've loved every minute of this series

Happy to say I was at both the Gagne ab game and 756. Barry never disappointed. So many other great hrs.

Yes he is

The problem that nobody talks about when it comes to any player that is in consideration for the hall of fame is that the MLB has set ZERO objective standards that a player must meet to be “voted” in. That’s another point that is pretty unprofessional in my opinion. Why is it that players are “voted” into immortality in the baseball sense like they’re being voted in to an All-Star game? And All-Star selections should have objective standards as well. This is what happens when you have your business, and the MLB is a business, ruled by emotion alone, which parallels how most people live their lives. This whole Barry Bonds debate is all a moot point of course, the hall of fame is “voted” on by a select few people, who don’t even like baseball fans anyway so we shouldn’t put any bearing on their opinions anyway.

I think of Juan Soto's early years in Washington when I compare Bonds to an active player.

Gentlemen. This presentation was excellent. I've literally watched the entire series twice.

Would love more videos like this

My Grandfather born in 1914 was an avid baseball fan said Willie Mays the greatest baseball player he’s ever seen. My father born 1957 avid baseball fan believes Barry Bonds is the greatest baseball player he’s ever seen with or without steroids.

Jeez. Matt is good at keeping suspense huh 34:45

Appreciate the video Barry Bonds is the 🐐👑 Don’t hate the player Hate the game

If David Ortiz is in the Hall of Fame Barry should be in too

@silkyjohnson7599

Жыл бұрын

💯

@jorgeangulo6282

Жыл бұрын

Thank you. And Roger Clemens and arod, McGwire, not Sosa.

@silkyjohnson7599

Жыл бұрын

@@jorgeangulo6282 Sosa’s only connection to PEDs is the exact same report that Ortiz was mentioned in..

It is a discussion much like any other historic hero - the conversation is complicated, and can't be simplified honestly. These bigger than life personalities aren't ACTUALLY bigger than life. They are, in the end, people. And like all people, they have their positive achievements and their negative actions. When we try to make someone into a mythic hero, we are erasing a big part of their lives. So, yes, I do think Barry Bonds should be in HOF, and Roger Clemens as well. But their bios shouldn't skip over their mistakes. And not just those guys - guys like Cap Anson and Ty Cobb should be discussed in all their complexities as well. It is time to stop pretending like we have to admire ever aspect of our hero's lives. People can be awful human beings, and still accomplish admirable things.

In terms of getting Bonds out: You can’t pitch up in the zone because he can obliterate up top. You can’t pitch lower in the zone because he can golf it out. You can’t pitch away from him because he can mash oppo. You can’t pitch inside, because he’ll be right on you and turn it. You can’t pitch down the middle, because duh. The only available option to try and get bonds out is to not try at all.

@newtoncountry5937

Жыл бұрын

Wow that's genius. Glad to see you were able to break from your work at NASA to drop that nugget

Oh I remember the 2016 Marlins season when Bonds was the hitting coach and Dee Gordon-Strange got popped for steroids that year. Coincidence, I am sure.

"Who's B Rabbit?" god dammit Matt!!!!!!

Is Mike wearing a Pine Barrens shirt from the Sopranos? Legendary episode lol.

@StarkRavingSports

Жыл бұрын

Guy was an interior decorator

@Recovery305

Жыл бұрын

@@StarkRavingSports His house looked like shit

There are many sides to bonds’s story. One one hand, bonds could be symbol for how sports figures are protected from hurting womem-the hyper masculinity that sports figures are suppose to be and that the women involved are nothing more than distractions at best. It’s that side of bonds that I feel should be scrutinized more and what keeps him out of the hall for me. For all of the media reports that lamabasted him, very few looked hard at his personal domestic issues. One the other sides, bonds, a black man, was HATED by the nation for doing what is clearly an obvious act for any sports figure. The US government hearings Spent More time via hearings on the steroid issue than on the Iraq War. No one wanted to question why tax dollars were being spent on a nonissue, why there was an obesession with drugs, or why all of a sudden cheating g was not acceptable, why it was imprtsnt for president bush to call out steroids rather than his war on civil liberties. An embarrassment to what our nation values. While I doubt bonds being the post child of the hate against steroids was solely on race, I can’t help but feel that may have been sometimes the case. White players who took drugs weren’t criticized continuously or even prosecuted by the feds. Only Roger Clemens was and he was never put under house arrest. Bonds already had experience with racism both as kid and as a ball player before he juiced so he did feel that mostly likely. Also, the war on drugs itself has some very bad racial implications both in its origins, the law enacted, and the criminalization of predominantly nonwhite citizens. In that sense-steroids was a small look into what america values and bonds was at the heart of that.

@joshnkoy

Жыл бұрын

one of the best takes i have ever read on this.

I did watch him play, and he was the best player in baseball from 1990-2004. You could make an argument Griffey was better in the 90s, but I don't think that holds up to scrutiny.

You guys are making me feel old 😂. I grew up watching Barry and used to argue that he was a product of his era and that younger generations wouldn't take the hard stance that they did

Having grown up watching baseball throughout the 90s/00s when steroid use was at a peak I still think Bonds deserves to be in the HoF. The guy was one of the best with or without. An as for the character stuff, I really dislike that this stuff holds voters back. The HoF is for what guys do on the baseball field. Guys like Schilling shouldn't be held out of the HoF because of his post career bs. There is plenty of old players in the HoF that were probably terrible people by today's standards, especially guys from say pre 1950-1960s.

I’d like to see him inducted, or at the very least his records given a place in the Hall. But I’m not sure it’ll ever happen. One can hope.

Overall I enjoyed the series, but it seems like your final judgments came down to the age-old decision point of if this guy is in this guy should be in. And I get it, I really do. But prior mistakes in Hall of Fame selection don't serve as gateways for other people who may or may not be considered a mistake.

Does it really even matter if Barry is a hall of famer? I probably couldn't even name a quarter of the players in the hall of fame. Everybody will remember Bonds forever because he was the greatest or at least top 5 players ever.

The footage in the background threw me off for a second.

Don't underestimate the Veteran's Committee....with 7 other guys eligible, it made guys who thinks he's a HOFer think voting for him would be a waste of a vote if they know 3 or 4 guys are hard NO's.

I grew up watching Barry Bonds in SF and he drew so many people to the ball park as well as making so many young people like me life long fans in an era where baseball was not marketing to kids. Everyone knew what was going on with Bonds’ stats and it was talked about constantly. The guy may have been a jerk but he inspired lots of baseball fans at the time. The moral dilemma is only ever used for the negative but it should be positive as well. Baseball writers are too biased for todays HoF

Its a nice overall view. It would be nice though if the left guy would stop interupting the other.

@StarkRavingSports

Жыл бұрын

Mike apologizes for his interrupting

I’m a die hard baseball fan Yankees fan I canceled Jeter entry trip bc after Barry the hof means nothing IMO (steroid context, yes Morality ?Ty Cobb was the first so… Dv Ted Williams probably would have suspended and eventually kicked out worst a conviction, a charge, at least a report ? 🤷🏻 False allegations against me would be rare (but a complicated millionaire )all to common I’m sorry I disagree there but that’s ok of course I think some things like TRT HGH , should be allowed just for players health but 🤷‍♀️ Great video,series , you guys did a better job then anything I’ve seen from major media and got just having a discussion very impressive

Aw , just leave him alone! Give him what he worked hard for

Not being convicted doesn't "kind of matter" it absolutely matters. He is an innocent man until proven guilty. Anyway! I believe Barry Bonds belongs in the hall of Fame. He was a hall of famer before he ever took roids, just like Roger Clemens. (Btw you guys should do a video on Roger Clemens, I don't think his dominance gets talked about enough).

David Ortiz is in, but we pretend steroids are disqualifying. I don't care he avoided getting named in a report. He was one of the most obvious juicers ever.

What is the criteria for HOF? Is it the records? Does he exemplify the best of baseball?

@JohnSmith-zw8vp

Жыл бұрын

To be among the best of the best, yes, and hell no!!

Are we going to get a Roger Clemens counterpart?

If Scott Rolen's in the HOF, then Barry Bonds HAS to be in

They already made 1 exception for a confirmed steriod user David Ortiz and he got in without an astrik so the same should be done for every steriod user

Yeah probably. But there has to be asterisks sadly.

Bonds never came clean about using performance enhancing drugs. Him being denied the HoF entry is because he would stain the hard work of all the previous members. He went to far, like Lance Armstrong did, and Lance was stripped of his 7 titles, and its only fitting that Bonds is denied HoF entry.

I think Scott Rolen got a boost into the Hall. He deserved it, but wasn't getting the votes. Now he is in, which seems right.

Steroids or not, barry bonds is the best hitter I have ever seen, he is the greatest ball player, he was hitting 40 home runs n stealing 40 bases before he ever did steroids. Yes he should be in cooperstown

Check out an article I wrote in 2013: "Barry Bonds, Baseball, and the Redemption of America." Please disregard the sub-headline, which the editors need to correct - and go straight to the article.

Y'all hit it out of the park, fan-freaking-tastic stuff. Is Barry Bonds a Hall of Famer? Short Answer: Yes. Long Answer? I was 11 when Bonds hit 73 in a season, I grew up with death star Barry Bonds. When I learned he *probably* took steroids, what I believe then and now, I was hurt. This was a hitting savant. This was the guy who absolutely nuked a ball in the 02 World Series that made my whole house quiet in awe. This was a guy who could and did everything a non-pitcher could on a ballfield. To this day the follow through on my swing has elements of Barry Bonds. When my child mind learned he *probably* cheated, I was hurt. I was angry and bitter with him. For almost two decades I was a hardline "Never in the Hall of Fame" guy. With age, and a greater perspective on life, I've grown softer on Bonds. I think he should be in the hall, him, Bud Selig, Mark McGwire, and Jose Canseco should have their names and faces front and center in the "Steroid Wing." We can't deny steroids happened and reshaped baseball, but we can give it context. Bonds, the player deserves to be in the hall of fame, he earned that through a lifetime of hard work. It would be wrong to take that from him. It would also be wrong to ignore his, and the others of his era, faults.

Two words: Fucking Absolutely!!!

False allegations aren't rare. They are actually very common

Court of public opinion is basically how Hall of Fame voting works in the first place, so IMO it's not a terrible argument to try and make. At the end of the day you're not voted in by how shiny your stats and accolades are, but how deserving either the baseball media Powers that Be or your peers think you are, and that varies wildly with no discernible rhyme or reason. The main argument against Bonds' Cooperstown candidacy is the character clause, but to what extent that can boil down to the ballot-toting media still parroting how much of a jerk he was with little substantial evidence against him is anyone's guess. If you take each one of the three major knocks on his career-steroids, perjury, DV-and take a *20%* bite off his stats for each, his career bWAR of 65.1 would _still_ surpass many Hall of Famers, including [fellow] committee inductees Fred McGriff (52.6) and Jack Morris (43.5), and be right in line with 2022 BBWAA inductee Scott Rolen (70.1).

He is the greatest ever

Btw it’s funny you brought up the bambino drinking sheep Yano it didn’t work but it showed he would’ve done real test without a doubt During the 61 m$m chase Mickey needed a boost ( rumored to be a testosterone/ amphetamine shot) he got a huge abscess not him out of the chase and missed WS ironically ( this happens if you try to put more then 250 mg per ml, btw Just saying Edits new phone

Yes.

Here we go.....

Guys like bonds and Clemons were hall of famers even before the roids plus you can’t deny the impact these guys had on the game at large rose should be in too

I think if you’re letting Bonds in, it opens the entire steroid era’s players getting in or not, open to debate. It’s not just about him, it’s if you are allowing the era to be counted officially. Since Selig is in, I think that at least on a case by case basis, some of them should make it. The DV stuff complicates it, so if you cut him off for that, they need to make a public statement making that very clear.

Let's settle this once and for all: the Hall of Fame needs a wing called 'The Hall of Infamy.' You can put all your bad boys and roid cases there; Clemens, Bonds, Rose, McGuire, heck put Canseco there too - he's as deserving as any. And I guarantee you tourists will spend more time in that section than anywhere else.

Having seen him play many times live, there really is no comparison to his dominance. I don’t think any other player had a stadium counter for intentional walks! As a kid doing homework, my parents used to call me over the TV whenever he came up to bat.

Keeping Bonds out of the Hall of Fame is really a discredit to everyone who is already in. Is it the Hall of Fame or the Hall of Popularity? Rose and Clemens absolutely belong in the HOF as well

Is dee gordon a hofamer?

The hard line stance is right: He did roids, you cheat, you don't get honored. If other HoFers are roiders then remove them.

@tupacalypse88

Жыл бұрын

now that I can respect as well the pick and choose bothers me. where u land on greenies?

@PKFlashBeta

Жыл бұрын

@@tupacalypse88 harder to say. I think the strongest argument for Bonds is that they weren't testing for roids in his day. For stuff like greenies, were they ever tested for? I mean, I also think that they're a very different kind of performance boost because people aren't getting superhuman physical training boosts the way roids do. I can't say I know a lot.

@The360Nate

Жыл бұрын

Why is David Ortiz in then he was in the Mitchell Report and he got in 1st Ballot.

@tupacalypse88

Жыл бұрын

@@PKFlashBeta I don't think they were tested for I would assume anything giving energy would focus would be advantageous but yo what degree idk.

@tupacalypse88

Жыл бұрын

@@PKFlashBeta EFFECTS The drugs help players deal with the grind of a 162-game season. They mask fatigue, increase arousal, increase alertness, increase aggressiveness and reaction time. Some players also claim to see the ball better, which may be because of the increased alertness." From the book ball four. with estimates as high as 85% of players using them he didn't give a time frame for that though but it just seems to late to pick one substance and ban people especially when bonds didnt do anything against the rules

There's no good reasons he shouldn't be a HOFer. Zero. Do a video about Roger Clemens as well.

Bonds is a hall of famer. That’s it, I don’t need to justify it.

Barry Bonds was already a hall of famer before he took steroids, and he faced pitchers who were taking steroids as well…

The funny part is people think baseball players don’t juice now when literally more players do than that era 😂 ‘omg Bonds cheated!’ bro stfu if you believe that than every athlete is a cheater

There is no way that steroids accounted for more than 10% of Bonds production. 90% and imo more than 90% of what he did at the plate was his abilities. With that said, tak away 10% of his stats to account for steroids and you still got a guy with over 680 hrs and 64 in a season while still being the only member of special clubs like the 400-400 and 500-500 ( I believe steroids actually hindered his base running ability) and there is no way that player isn't first ballot.

Of course so does arod Manny and everyone else

@tupacalypse88

Жыл бұрын

Yankee fan I always loved Manny put him in hell of a hitter

Geez so many bonds videos lately Does your throat hurt??

only player in the history of the game to have 500hr and 500sb. most walks and intentional walks in history while carrying the most hr in a season and a career.

Barry Bonds is not being kept out of the hall of fame because there's suspicion of him taking steroids. The MLB wasn't even testing for steroids and it wasn't against the rules at the time. They didn't do anything about steroids until there was a media cloud over the game because of the BALCO scandal. Barry Bonds is not the in the hall of fame because the media does not like him and players in the league, who are on the veterans committee do not like him. It's a popularity contest and as long as those voting standards are in place, baseball's hall of fame will continue to be illegitimate.

Barry Bonds is the greatest hitter in the history and the future of the game. Steroids do not make shitty players great. They do not make mediocre players great. Steroids do not enhance skill. At most steroid use MAY have kept Barry Bonds off the injured list. Very few, if any, of his home runs wouldn't have been home runs without Steroids. A Hall of Fame without Barry Bonds is completely illegitimate. Every hitter in the Hall is a little league hack compared to Bonds. If Bonds doesn't get in I will never acknowledge the Hall of Fame and I will never tolerate anyone who does.

1 obvious problem with Bonds is he played LF the least important and easiest position to field just ask Manny Ramirez... Bonds never helped his team construct a roster the way GriffeyJr did by filling CF one of the most difficult positions to play... for this reason i thought for sure he was not the #1 MLB player in 1998, i had ARod, Griffey, and Ivan Rodriguez ahead of him... fax!!!

@newtoncountry5937

Жыл бұрын

A fax is an obsolete method of sending documents via telephone lines. What does that have to do with baseball?

@dereksupernaut

Жыл бұрын

@@newtoncountry5937 its a dumb joke for intelligent humans... the kids say "facts" to mean they highly agree AND the kids often do not know what a fax machine is even though its fairly new tech if you were born in 1980 like me... i combine the two concepts and end my statements with fax to state i strongly agree with my own statement while making a horribly corny wordplay joke... fax!!!

@dereksupernaut

Жыл бұрын

@@newtoncountry5937 i would have preferred you comment on if LF is a big negative on the all-time rankings... fax!!!

@newtoncountry5937

Жыл бұрын

@@dereksupernaut I see...a fellow fan of corny puns, I may have misjudged you sir. Lame wordplay is about 98% of my comedic repertoire... facsimile! As far as defensive position...I've always felt like it was judged on an individual basis for most players. For example take David Ortiz, clearly he would be judged on his offensive achievements. I feel like if a player is better known for defense, the plate stats are just to solidify the player's case. Same would be true for guys like Bonds and Ortiz, they are remembered more for what they did at the plate. (Although that's not a great comparison because Bonds was miles better in the field and running the bases, especially early in his career). So for me LF isn't an issue.

If he'd done it with out the roids absolutely

i'd say take Bud out of the hall (since this is his mess to begin with) I'd also take Parry out of the hall as well since he openly admitted to using spitballs to get in in the first place and I'm sure there are more that could be removed to. as for Bonds himself I look at it like this if you cheat on a test they toss out the entire thing not just the one section of it or whatever...even considering his pre roids numbers are equal to/better than Chipper Jones who's in but that's me

Yes. You cant tell the story of baseball without barry bonds. HOF'er pre steriods, HOF'er with them.

Y is this a debate ? HOF all the way

No, Barry Bonds is NOT a Hall of Famer and he only has Barry Bonds to blame. Period.

Hmmm

If the records must be real and the drugs don’t matter, then why even keep steroids illegal? Since baseball fans don’t mind just let everyone juice up.

We put players like Ruth and Mantle on a pedestal but those guys weren't role models. As disappointed as I am and was at the time, there's no doubt he belongs there. I do know his bust will be twice the size of eveyone else's though. Besides Bochi if he ever gets in 😂

BBWAA is a joke. It's the hall of FAME. Therefore if you're FAMOUS you're in. Just like it's the all STAR game, not the all STAT game. A great first half of a season usually doesn't make a nobody a star. Put Pete Rose in the hall of fame and Barry too!

At the end of the day, he's not a Hall of Famer. It doesn't remotely matter if he was a HoF'er before he entered his PED portion of his career. Because it DOES matter so much to so many people, apparently, it's worth keeping him on the outside looking in. Regardless of if he ever makes it in, debates like this will always rage, and that is what's most valuable. If you're someone (upcoming player) who couldn't care less about legacy or public perception, and you just care about how much money you can make, then the entire debate about PEDs is irrelevant. You'll do what you want and just laugh all the way to the bank, even if you get caught and kicked out. But if you're someone who DOES care about the legacy of the game, and the legacy of your own reputation, then you need to KNOW that even flirting with PEDs (or any of the brands of cheating available) can in an INSTANT render your legacy and career worthless. Altuve's career is forever tainted by playing around with cheating. I'm sure if he had the chance to do it all again, he'd run as far away from trash cans and thumpers as possible. But I LOVE it that no matter your stance on the "Everyone is doing it, so what's the big deal?", Bonds and Clemons and Sosa remain fantastic cautionary tales about what you're losing by seeking out shady ways to get an edge on your peers. You put Bonds in the Hall of Fame, you say to everyone coming up afterwards that the only thing that matters are the numbers, and character or legacy or reputation or honor are okay to sacrifice.

@bradhorowitz2765

Жыл бұрын

I don’t like the cheating stance. I reckon many of your favorite ball players at one point cheated or at least tried too. Willie mays and prob MANY players before the 70s took greenies. Guys like Gaylord Perry (I do respect that guy) KNOWING they were going to bend the rules. Tony Larusa reportedly had cameras installed in the the White soxs stadium to spy on opposing players when he managed early in his career. Joe tore apparently had no clue if his players were doping which is very odd to think. MLB colluded not once but twice; first time was to exclude nonwhite players and second was the finish the power of free agents. In those instances, MLB helped fix the seasons. In pre 1948 (and honestly counting the years after that as teams refused to sign black players), the wealthy clubs could control the falcons tracts of their white superstars without having to worry about the great black players. Would the Yankees have won as many World Series pre 1948 if they didn’t play in a segregated league? Probably not. Would some of their white players have lesser careers? Prob. As for the 1980s free agency collusion, as Marvin miller said, “it fixed the postseason.”

@newtoncountry5937

Жыл бұрын

I was hoping I'd run across this comment and Vickie, my good man, you didn't disappoint! I LOVE your self-righteous and smug lecture about things like integrity, honor, and legacy of the game. It makes you sound awfully stupid, but clearly that's not a deterrent for someone of such high morals as yourself. How does a player using PEDs (which did not break any rules or medical guidelines) tarnish the legacy of a game that had a long history of institutional racism, its best team taking bribes to tank the World Series, multiple illicit drug scandals, corrupt labor negotiations, or the hundred other scandals surrounding the PR Nightmare Circus of pro baseball? Please explain these glaring hypocrisies in your moral position Vicky. Thank you.

@VictorDiGiovanni

Жыл бұрын

@@newtoncountry5937 Thanks for engaging in this fun discussion! This one will be around for a while. But I can see your confusion about what I wrote. You seem to be coming from the belief that I hold Baseball© or sports in general in some sort of sacred light. Nothing could be further from the truth. I am just as disappointed in, and disdainful of, the history and legacy of baseball and pretty much all sports because of the same reasons. Some might find it unfair, but I choose to hold sports, and its representatives to the standard of actual truth, and actual integrity, not just "the sport has been like this forever" or "it was a different time when those things happened." As you stated with your examples (and as others have as well), sports has been littered with racism and cheating and performance enhancers since day one. That renders the whole thing more or less worthless. My question to you is "Why do sports have value?" Why does any of this matter? Why does it MATTER if a multi-millionaire athlete who's been coddled his entire life, and praised and lauded and cheered for and, as stated, paid millions and millions of dollars, why do we remotely CARE if he's not further given yet another award telling him how great he is? Why does that matter to us? It matters because of the value we place on sports because of cultural and mythological stories we tell about sports and its athletes. Athletes don't produce anything of intrinsic value. There is no situation in life where we desperately need someone who can stand on a raised mound and from 60 feet away, hit a target with a ball. Or for a man to skate around a sheet of ice and hit a rubber disk into a net. Or etc on every single other physical thing we gush over and pay athletes millions of dollars to do, and we personally pay hundreds of dollars to witness with our own eyes. A person hitting a ball or throwing a ball is essentially worthless. I can go down to a local park and see dozens of people throwing balls and hitting balls all afternoon. Some of them might even be doing it with some level of skill. Am I going to pay hundreds of dollars for the right to watch them do that? No, of course not. Am I going to pay hundreds of dollars to watch high schoolers play? College players? Minor leaguers? Even lower-tier MLB teams? Probably not. What makes it worth something more that a ball is being thrown and/or hit? It's only the mythological story and value we place on it as a society. And that value isn't even simply that this man is hitting the ball harder or farther than others of his peers. We've sold ourselves on the myth that sports MATTER and that those that are good at it are somehow examples we should follow and model our lives after, or at least model our competitive nature and dedication to training and obsession with teamwork. It's the myth we sell our kids and ourselves about why sports is such a worthwhile endeavor to place them in. Because sports will make you a better person. And that the people who are really good at sports are the best of us. If we aren't telling ourselves and selling ourselves that Michael Jordan, or Shohei Ohtani or Tom Brady or Connor McDavid are HEROIC and stand head-and-shoulders above the rest, we aren't paying big money to come out and see them. Networks aren't paying big money to televise the games. And teams aren't paying big money to have the players on their teams. It all comes from the unspoken agreement we all have that what we are seeing these athletes do is SPECIAL. That we've all tried our hands at playing these games in school and little leagues, and we know how hard it is to excel, and we can appreciate how incredible it is what these elite athletes are doing... but we do so with the understanding that they are playing by the same rules we are. It's just an implied agreement. An implied trust. So to say, "Well, everyone cheats" completely undermines the entire value of what sports represents. If it's just now about being able to cheat more efficiently than the other teams, then what value does sports still have? It doesn't. It's now just cheering for your team to win at all costs, with true athletic ability now being one of the lesser reasons for why a team wins. And honesty and integrity completely off the list now. If that's sports for you, then there's nothing anyone can do to dissuade you. Enjoy celebrating. But personally, I just want sports to become the thing it's always sold itself as, which is a pantheon of heroes doing magical deeds that mere mortals can't.

@newtoncountry5937

Жыл бұрын

@@VictorDiGiovanni That is a very moving speech, and I say that with zero sarcasm or irony. If you don't have a background in public speech, you have a natural ability for it. The only criticique(s) I can levy against it is that it is hard to follow at times. An example would be when you said near the beginning that you do not hold baseball or sports in general in any sort of sacred light, but then your ultimate position on the topic suggests very clearly that you do. But I also realize that I may be missing the point you are making, or at least some of it. You also mention things like implied understandings and implied trust, which is much like the discussion of "unwritten rules" and "unspoken agreements." All of that stuff is so dumb it brings to mind a boys tree house that only those who know the secret knock or password can gain entry. You also misrepresented my comments in bad faith which is a bit confusing, because it didn't really hurt or strengthen your position. I can only assume you weren't very confident in your own argument so making me appear as someone who supports cheating and drug use would make your argument sound more right? And since you have spent a great deal of time arguing against a point I did not make, I'm not sure where to go from here. I suppose my best response to your position is this... Heroes get remembered, but legends never die. Follow your heart kid, and you'll never go wrong.

@VictorDiGiovanni

Жыл бұрын

@@newtoncountry5937 lol. My comment replies are almost always stream of consciousness, so if ANY of what I wrote was coherent, I'll take that as a win! As to painting you in bad faith, my apologies, as that entire response wasn't directed at you, but just at the "Everyone Cheats" industrial complex that's out there and combatting any criticism of cheating teams or players. One of my best friends is an Astros superfan, and being a Houston resident, I had also become a big Astros fan this past decade, but he and I have parted fandom ways as a result of the various Astros scandals. I honestly could not care less that the Red Sox and "every other team does it." The team I had had given my full support to was shown to have callously and cravenly cheated at the highest stage of the game. The opportunity they had to make it right was at the moment it all came out in public. The team, and the players especially, had a chance to set the bar for ethics and accountability in sports by admitting what they did, and vacating their misbegotten World Series title. The precedent and inspirational example they could have set (Altuve, especially) would have had generational and outside-of-sports cultural impact. But instead, they all doubled down on "We didn't do anything anyone else is doing". And even worse, my Astros superfan friend, also blindly chose to support the team and justify any and all of their failures. That was so disappointing and soul-crushing. This same friend has spent the last eight years whining very openly and publicly about how the Republican Party and its followers has chosen to abandon all sense of ethics and honesty and truth and are only focused on winning at any and all cost and justify it by saying "The Democrats are doing it too." It's such an exact word-for-word repeat he's saying about politics that also applies to sports and it's sad, but hilarious how he doesn't see it (and yes, I've pointed it out to him, but he admits he's such a die-hard Astros fan that he'll never listen to any criticism of his team.) So to your last point about being inconsistent about sports being sacred or not, yes, I admit that the IDEAL of sports is something I whole-heartedly believe in. In its purest form, it's something that can unite and inspire millions of people, even billions of people. The only other thing that can get people all on the same page so fully is actual WAR. Sports is all mythology. I LOVE the mythology of sports. I love the narratives of generational heroes. I love enemies being slain. I love dynasties rising and falling. Sports are unparalleled in their ability to be compelling narrative generation. But we're in an era where there's simply no possbility for large-array cheating and personal/character failures or organizational crimes/racism to be swept under the rug or stay hidden forever. There's no longer a gentlemen's agreement between reporters and players/teams to keep certain things out of the press. If there is large-scale or even small-scale crap going on, it's going to come out. And sadly, we have to acknowledge it and deal with it with the sincerity and authenticity it deserves. We can't give ourselves a pass on holding something we love to a higher standard just because we weren't aware of all the failures of the past. For what it's worth, I support going back and shining a light on all the stuff we're finding out about yesterday's teams and heroes. You either have to do that, or flat out just say, "The story told about XYZ Player is pure fiction, pure legend, and we feel the legend is more important than the reality." That's a fair tactic to take, but it doesn't change how we deal with today's players. They are making millions of dollars because we have chosen to believe and put such high value on the myths. If Babe Ruth, legend, was this amazing, then Shohei Ohtani is worth double Ruth's legendary value. So thank you for continuing this fun debate. Anything said about "You" is intended to be empty, generic hyperbole, just as anything directed at me isn't taken personally. Apologies if any of it came off as more than that.

No steroid user belongs in the Hall of Fame. Even if they only used steroids their final season it taints their career.

i havent.