Balerion rotting from the inside out with parasites would be symbolically relevant to the story since he represents Targaryen power and authority and begins to break down as they begin to lose their grip on power.

@jackhamey659

3 ай бұрын

it also parallels viserys, old and great but rotting away inside

@Sisyphus-rq5ew

3 ай бұрын

@@jackhamey659great is a really strong word to describe Viserys he a mediocre king at best nothing wrong with that though

@jackhamey659

3 ай бұрын

@@Sisyphus-rq5ew yeah i did want to reword my original comment, i think its more that as a king, lots is done to make him look big and strong, even though he is secretly withering away

@Sisyphus-rq5ew

3 ай бұрын

@@jackhamey659 oh that actually makes sense I get what your saying

@jackhamey659

3 ай бұрын

@@Sisyphus-rq5ew respect

It’s okay Balerion we all get super magma tapeworms with human faces sometimes.

@taylortanner37

8 ай бұрын

This is why worm prevention meds are so important. Not only can they damage important organs like your heart and intestines but the next time you take a nice cool dip in a pool or lake they might erupt out of you alien style.

@emmagrrrace246

8 ай бұрын

Yeah I hate when that happens 🪱🪱

@taylortanner37

8 ай бұрын

@@emmagrrrace246 your response has caused me to have some weird mental images since sometimes tapeworms will peek out of their hosts butts. Now I just keep picturing a worm with a human face sticking its head out of a dragon butt and either sticking its tongue out or blowing raspberries as bystanders look on both horrified and insulted.

@thing_under_the_stairs

5 ай бұрын

It's so true. I just got back from visiting family in Mexico, and you wouldn't believe the stuff that's been coming out of me... what does my sister even put in her cooking?!?

@timtheskeptic1147

2 ай бұрын

Ah, so you've also attempted the gas station sushi challenge?

Maybe Viserys wasting was a result of his bond with the parasite ridden and dying Balerion and their mind meld

@michaeltalksaboutstuff

8 ай бұрын

I do agree there could be some weird effects on Viserys from the bond as well that may have been overlooked

@tempertempernow

8 ай бұрын

@michaeltalksaboutstuff loving all your theories btw.

@Fuckalope-cm5dk

3 ай бұрын

It was an inside job

@MostBlackmalesaredownlow

3 ай бұрын

Now that's a good one

@brendanmuller7301

16 күн бұрын

​@@michaeltalksaboutstuff I think their bond with the dragons is interesting and clearly deeper than rider and mount, we see in the show and books that they seem to instinctively react based on their rider's feelings in ways that hint to some mental connection at the very least. We also know they're sentient and, if the show is anything to go by, can understand concepts even if it's to a low degree, like drogon burning the iron throne instead of doing anything to jon.

I’d like to think Balerion was the reason Viserys ended up with that disease. He caught it when he mounted the dragon unprotected

@michaeltalksaboutstuff

8 ай бұрын

yeah it certainly seems like a thing that could be the case. The dragon bond is a very strong one and I wouldn't wanna mind meld with a parasite ridden dragon if given the choice.

@staytuned2L337

7 ай бұрын

​@@michaeltalksaboutstuffdo you think that if they melded like that Viserys would've sensed something off with Balerion, though? Aside from that? This is a fantastic theory. I love it.

@thing_under_the_stairs

5 ай бұрын

@@staytuned2L337 Viserys *did* say that the dragons were dangerous in ways that the other Targaryens didn't understand. Maybe he didn't know that he and Balerion were infested, but he could sense through their bond that something was wrong, and possibly even knew that it was a source of his own illness. Just a theory, but he did say it.

@fletcherw32

3 ай бұрын

@@staytuned2L337 He has literally nothing to compare it too. It’s not like he can dragonbond with another ancient dragon without parasites to test.

@staytuned2L337

3 ай бұрын

@@fletcherw32 I don't particularly think that matters? He wouldn't need to know the exact species or look of them to know something was all up in his dragon. If for example we see that when Daemon gets shot his dragon cries out in pain, or when Dany's wails in time with her climax we can clearly see there's a physical bond. I imagine if parasites were rummaging around in Viserys' dragon's guttyworks he'd at least be able to recognize something is wrong.

He died of cringe after Viserys claimed him

@kenesealo7982

12 күн бұрын

😂

@im2arrogant118

9 күн бұрын

Viserys is the goat. Everyone missed him when he was gone and recognized how underappreciated he was while he was alive.

@restingsadface

8 күн бұрын

love to see random viserys slander lmfao

@Tombraxis

8 күн бұрын

best comment

@asytippyy352

6 күн бұрын

GRRM actually said he likes the show character more than his own, which is a rare compliment as far as his opinions on adaptations go. FaB Viserys is just a drunk feckless dipsh' if I recall correctly

Parasites having way worse symptoms in non target species is actually pretty common. For example raccoon roundworm has basically no symptoms in raccoons and causes blindness in humans.

Regarding reptiles and longevity, one reason reptiles can live a long time is lower core body temperature and a correspondingly slower metabolism. This can work really well with your theory. If Belarion was infested with a fireworm parasite, it could have increased his internal body temperature. That would have increased his metabolism and so shortened his lifespan. I mean, generally just being ill with a parasite can shorten a lifespan so it might not mean much, but I thought it was interesting.

@a.munroe

8 ай бұрын

Oooh! It would also explain how he was excellent at fighting before. It's like he's a mama bear in spring now, because he's literally in overdrive all the time but feels weak.

@owenbridgers

5 ай бұрын

So do you think Cannibal being in a place like Skagos, which is at the same latitude as the Wall, meaning its very cold, that could help with him living longer?

@jt5765

4 ай бұрын

​@@owenbridgers That's basically what kept Maester Aemon going in my opinion. As soon as he left the wall he died. The Targs & Dragons seem to mimic each other so I'd be very surprised if a cold climate didn't extend a Dragons lifespan. Cold preserves, Fire consumes.

@Bleilock1

3 ай бұрын

I think this would be reading too much into it...

@ddpzzp553

17 күн бұрын

@@Bleilock1 yeah specially since dragons should be endothermic bc of their activity

So Viserys, the last person to ride a magical parasite containing Balerion dies of a mysterious incurable disease that makes his flesh rot????

@michaeltalksaboutstuff

8 ай бұрын

Yeahhhh I am thinking there is room for theory crafting there... It certainly could be connected

@akimmel6941

3 ай бұрын

That would support something I'm running with where the parasites cause the downfall of dragons. I hope he looks into this!😁

@randomvids5883

13 күн бұрын

He died of leprosy

@aileenpi73

12 күн бұрын

Too bad it didn’t get Alicent

@lillonerboi504

10 күн бұрын

@@randomvids5883The actors, and screenwriters use the odd phrasing of “a type of leprosy”. Implying it’s not any usual disease. If it was just leprosy as we know it, I don’t see the reason for the odd wording.

Aerea Targeryan, the only part of all of ASOIAF/westerosi lore that actually terrified me. Like her death is unspeakable horrifying.

Even if Sheepstealer and Cannibal are a bit too old to still be alive, either one of them could have laid eggs that hatched into new wild dragons. Well, Cannibal may have eaten its young, but Sheepie's may have survived.

@kragary

8 ай бұрын

Also: IF dragons keep growing until they become too big to sustain their own mass and die and IF dragons grow faster when they feed on humans then Sheepstealer, who prefers to eat non-humans, might indeed be growing very slowly, and could therefore live a lot longer than Targaryen war dragons.

@TheInsatiableDrBoom

8 ай бұрын

I think the implication is you need vallryians to hatch dragons. Otherwise the eggs are just pretty rocks. It may well be that Lysenni individuals are valryian enough but I think it's more complex that just typical animal breeding patterns.

@kragary

8 ай бұрын

@@TheInsatiableDrBoom Or perhaps you need adult dragons. Nobody but Valyrians had those either. Once the adults died off, no new eggs were hatched, until Dany did her highly specific magic ritual. I mean, kinda like dinosaurs. To bring back dinosaurs now you'd need very advanced genetic manipulation tech and knowledge and super rare DNA samples. But back in the day all you needed was a mama dinosaur.

@danika9411

8 ай бұрын

Silverwing also survived the dance.

@Fuckalope-cm5dk

3 ай бұрын

Sheepstealer is alive

Love the theory that Balerion was infected as well. It makes a lot of sense. First time I have heard someone talk about it.

So it turns out that Balerion was a whole can of worms in his later life.

I love this theory, I feel so bad for grandpa Balerion leaving Grandma Vhagar all alone. That's probably why she's so grumpy, she misses her hubby.

Being an animal person and educated, I’ve always wondered about animals ON the dragons themselves that would be present. Ticks, lice, etc. Nearly all wildlife is effected in some way by parasites and other animals. The closest the show has come to showing this was the seagulls atop Veghar while she was sleeping. Those birds would be cleaning and picking off bugs and other nasties off the dragon’s skin.

The Maesters hint at killing the dragons, but they don't say how. It's entirely possible that they started with poisoning Balerion, and then moved on to smaller and less-famous dragons after that. It's also entirely possible that Maesters learned about dragon-killing parasites from the death of Balerion, and used those parasites to weaken and kill other remaining dragons after that. Whether it be from war wounds, that 9-foot gash (and subsequent weakness and infections), poison or parasites, it's pretty likely that Balerion didn't die of "old age", and a much older dragon is possible. But, considering they continue to grow over time, it gets much harder to hide older dragons.

@avicebron1217

2 күн бұрын

this is genius and part of my new head canon.

And maybe a parasyted dragon, living in close proximity with others, spreaded the infection all over, causing their atrophy and eventual extintion over the years

@akimmel6941

3 ай бұрын

I was also lead here. Someone else pointed out that the last person to ride Ballerion died of a strange parasite...🤔🤔

What if the life force of a dragon needs to be magically maintained? Just like the Weirwoods need to “drink” blood to maintain their magic as you have previously speculated, perhaps dragons need the same, or at least something similar to maintain themselves. So a healthy dragon with a partner goes out and fights battles and kills people, releasing their life essence and letting the dragon absorb it. But a dragon who is weak or stuck in a pit does not receive that energy, gets weaker and weaker, and eventually dies. If Belarion did have a parasite, this would have made to problem worse, so he last 40 years, but basic as an invalid. It seems to me as well that Dany’s dragons grew in burst after staying the same size for a period of time. It might be interesting to go back and see if there are indications in the story that her dragons gained size after she was involved in battles where people were killed. The last dragons to die in kings landing were small. Could it be that a blood sacrifice is not just needed to start a dragon’s life, but ongoing sacrifices are also needed to let it grow and thrive. So the more peaceful Westeros became, the fewer dragons could exist?

@michaeltalksaboutstuff

8 ай бұрын

It is certainly possible there will be something like that. Would be tough on Dany to realize her kids require the blood of innocents on a constant basis...

@kragary

8 ай бұрын

Drogon is biggest of Dany's three and also the only one that (so far) has been known to hunt humans for supper.

@wolfsbanealphas617

8 ай бұрын

depedns on whethershe percieves her foes as innocent @@michaeltalksaboutstuff

@michaeltalksaboutstuff

8 ай бұрын

Eventually you run out of foes if you aren't making a lot of new enemies

@danika9411

8 ай бұрын

That is interesting, but it doesn't match Silverwing and Vermithor though 🤔 They are the dragongs of King Jahaerys and Queen Alysanne. Both dragons are almost exactly the same age, but Vermithor shows signs of old age like loose skin, some missing scales. He is also much bigger than Silverwing. Silverwing looks still young and shows no sign of old age, but is also smaller. Both spend their life together and after their riders deaths they lived as "half wild" dragons on dragonmount in the caves there. ( Also interesting they are the only dragon we know of who are a couple. ) So they were not chained in a dragonpit during that time. Both are friendly to humans, but Silverwing is described as one of the friendliest dragon. Spoiler for the series House of the Dragon. She didn't even kill any of the dragonseeds or people who tried to claim her like the other dragons. What I thought is, that there might have been different breeds of dragons in Valyria and that some f.e. live longer or are bigger, smaller ect. Like different dog breeds. 😅

I knew we could count on you, Michael the Reptile Aging Process Expert, to explain this stuff that goes over all our heads.

@pankratos5017

8 ай бұрын

Reptile Aging Process Expert makes for a horrible acronym, however.

@zran3097

2 ай бұрын

@@pankratos5017 True. Nevertheless, it's ASOIAF, so seems fitting...

Regardless of how he died it's a terrifying prospect to consider a beast that could do that to him. "There's always a bigger fish"

Sounds plausible. But a side note-parasites killing their host during their first stage of life (e.g., parasitoid wasps) is pretty common.

@michaeltalksaboutstuff

8 ай бұрын

Very good point. The sound of the way they liked the heat implies to me these ones were designed to live inside a dragon for awhile but the examples of parasites that don't intend to stay inside are also a thing.

this is genuinely the best song of ice and fire theory channel out there!

If Balerion had died of parasites I think they'd have been infesting his body when people tried to do something with the corpse, in fact the parasites would have gone Wild and we'd have this crazy story of Kings Landing burning down from having been overrun by people-face dragon things. Having the biggest, baddest, oldest dragon die of parasites also doesn't sound like a very "George" thing to do so instead I think Balerion did the most George thing ever and died of a broken heart. Balerion probably realized at some point that he'd taken his dragon rider somewhere he shouldn't have, he got into a huge fight with Something that he never fully healed from and Aerea ( Rhaella ) encountered something that caused her deathly pain from the inside out which given the connection between Dragon and Rider Balerion MUST have felt in his soul. And if Balerion was so deeply connected to Rhaella in her agonizing death throws, begging for release, as the shock of being plunged into an ice bath kills her what just might happen to him? I think the shock of losing his rider in such a way to ICE of all things Balerion caused the fire in him to start to go out. It was ICE that killed FIRE. I also don't think those were parasites infesting Rhaella but instead something much more magical and darker... Valyria was known for practicing blood and fire magic that Somehow bound these great dragons intrinsically not to people in general but to a specific bloodline that was physically marked by this magic with Violet eyes, pale skin, and platinum hair. Rhaella was 14-16 during her adventures with Balerion and that's the exact time period when she'd likely have first started getting her, well, period. her moon's blood. I suspect Rhaella adventured herself right into the darkest heart of Old Valyria where she was Taken, willingly or unwillingly, by the same form of ancient and dark magic that first CREATED the dragons and she had ALL the unused eggs fertilized magically with dragon seed. Those weren't parasites, Rhaella was becoming a Mother of Dragons, that's why they all had faces and hands not weird parasite mandibles. If she hadn't died who knows what could have happened to Westeros...

@meltemb1705

11 күн бұрын

Nah, giving a character a terrible death is totaly "George".😂

@rumorcontrol7873

10 күн бұрын

@@meltemb1705 doesn't sound like you read the rest of what I wrote, parasites are too KIND for George

@meltemb1705

10 күн бұрын

@@rumorcontrol7873 You wrote something about Ice killing his Fire, which is a kinder death then getting eaten alive. And a character dying of broken hearth does not sound like GRRM. Just to make clear, I do belive that Balerion just died of old age. Dragons just keep growing until they break down, so dying at 200 years at that massive size makes sense. But Parasites would also make sense, because Valyria is sayed to be roamed by giant firewyrms. Balerion probably was injured by one and the parasites are baby firewyrms. But yeah, everyone can belive that they want, because we will most likely never know what really happened in Valerya.

I completely passed off the winged serpent that Summer saw as smoke (even after reading the books 6 times), but yes! What if it was Sheep Stealer?!?!?! A 4th dragon possibly in play in the GOT story?!?!? Maybe he will fall to the Night King OR MAYBE he will become the third dragon for Danaerys if Viserion is taken by the Night King. OR EVEN MAYBE Jon Snow will claim Sheep Stealer and confront Danaerys and her dragons?!?! Wow, I am so excited with this revelation!!!

@michaeltalksaboutstuff

8 ай бұрын

You may like my old nan video haha I talk about it more in there

@danika9411

8 ай бұрын

Silverwing survived the dance as well. It was noted about her, that despite being the same age as Vermithor she still looked like a young dragon and showed no signs of old age.

@TheRusty

15 күн бұрын

It has nothing at all to do with dragons. It's a wolf's perception of the red comet through the smoke of winterfell being sacked, before the fires of the sack blot out even the comet's light (which is supposed to be brighter than the moon) - by A Storm of Swords, the comet is passed, meaning it was probably low on the horizon and possibly disappeared that nigth. I think if a dragon had showed up and started burning stuff, Theon, or the Boltons, or even Luwin would have mentioned it.

Silverwing is unaccounted for. Plus she is described as being lighter built an not agressive. She could have survived.

@niilauusiheimala3633

7 күн бұрын

Unless she died of grief/ lost will to live after losing Vermithor as they were as close as Jahaerys and Alysanne were to eachother...

Another thing to note. WHY would George give us this seemingly inconsequential story of Balerion flying to Valeria and A girl from parasites that made her blood boil? To me it seems there are two schools of thought. Either Valyria will play a larger role in the future and referencing a giant monster that could hurt Balerian could be a way to forshadow it Or The wounding of the black dread is whats important here. I think Aereas is then meant to distract us from the actual clue in this story: Which is that Balerion also has a wound thats smoking blood. Just like Aerea! If its nr2 then it does call into question the age of dragons overall! And it opens up the possibillity for other dragons surpassing beyond 300 AC

Dragons seem to grow like cold blooded animals, reptiles and fish: they don't have a maximum size, they just keep growing slowly all their life as long as they have the conditions to sustain growth: food, space, ect.

Well according to the Wiki, 'Skagos' means 'stone' in the old tongue. So either this is a massive misdirect from George, or...the prophecy about "waking dragons from stone" could mean a dragon will come from Skagos. I doubt Cannibal would've mated given his taste for dragon flesh, so maybe Sheepstealer visited Skagos and laid a clutch of eggs waiting to be hatched (it's only a stone's throw from Winterfell). Or maybe Sheepstealer just took up residence on Skagos and is waiting to re-emerge, or 'wake', to the right person. Regardless if that happens or not this was a great video. Nice job!

That entire "plot line" is the craziest part of F&B, imo.

re:Worms I like it, I've suggested something similar before. It makes a lot of sense. On the flip side, I've also wondered if he caught something else. Greyscale. My process for that is that the worms appeared to be burning Aerea, so they didn't need to tap heat and should have added to a dragon's. Greyscale on the other hand would slowly cripple him making him seem lazy and might diminish his capacity to generate heat. The one major parallel in Weirwood and Dragon lore is that they are assumed to grow forever. It would be interesting to see a dragon can suffer the same fate as a Weirwood, turning to stone. I think it buys into the idea of waking dragon from stone, even if it's not literally this one. We don't see evidence that greyscale can affect a dragon, so totally understand reservations. re:Winterfell Your suggestion of Sheepstealer makes the most sense and makes the best argument. However, there are a couple things to consider. The Broken Tower was "struck" a few years after Jace visited. No one uses it and it's full of rats. Potentially a dragon could have been living in that tower eating rats and keeping a low profile. When it was broken fits the timeline for an egg left behind during the Dance. Less likely than your suggestion, but not impossible.

@BeteBlanc

8 ай бұрын

I'll add that in considering both worm and greyscale conditions, I put forth these ideas don't have to be mutually exclusive. Greyscale might function as part of the way wurms "hunt". They might be attracted to those affected by Greyscale. Aerea may have gotten greyscale and the worms were fighting/eating it. Same for the dragon. Greyscale could be a disease spread by Valyrians after being exposed to fire worms. Outside their range the disease is removed from the food cycle that typically keeps it in check.

@brendanmuller7301

16 күн бұрын

​@BeteBlanc He could've easily had both yeah. There's other diseases in that area too he could've caught

Maybe this was the beginning of the end for all the dragons in Westeros. There was a decline in the size and strength after Vaghar and Caraxes who were already fully mature and not often at the pit. 😮 I mean Syrax had a clutch on Dragonstone everytime Rhaenyra was pregnant and how many of them became big tough mature adults?

Balerion never fought in Dorne, any other fighting he did there was nothing capable of harming him. The wound from Valyria is the only one we know for sure happened. I don't think comparing him to a front line vet is accurate, more of an artillery piece than anything else really. That being said, the wound from Valyria was described as grievous, so it could theoretically have shortened his life, it may also have carried disease unique to dragons or even had magical effects. It happened in Valyria and the only thing we know about that place is not to go there.

Another quality video. I'm in awe of the way you keep cranking them out. Thanks again!

I wonder, how did the Doom not cause planet-wide problems? Other lands seem to be unaffected, but with that level of volcanic cataclysm, it should have affected everything. We're probably talking end-Permian levels of shit going down.

@MrWepx-hy6sn

14 күн бұрын

because magic, that's how the fat man doesn't need to really explain it

I love your videos! I can't believe how fast you are cranking them out. Thanks for your content. Cheers!

@tempertempernow

8 ай бұрын

Dude is on fire

Huge fan, bro. Thanks for all your work, always hyped to see you post new

Dude,you are slowly becoming my favorite channel. Really dig your theories

You are blowing my mind with these videos. I love how you are tieing everything together. ❤

Ive been watching a lot of your videos in the last week. Im uber excited for this video because Aereas and Balerions story is one of my favorite mysteries.

This is a great video, I've always felt that what happened to Balerion in Valyria contributed to his death. There's also one aspect that could have factored in as well which might seem far fetched but; what if he was depressed as well? He remembered Valyria as it was and because the Targaryens fled BEFORE the doom he wouldn't have known about it. Balerion flew home to find it was a hellscape now, and not one even he could comfortably live in. They were there for a while too so he clearly tried to live there again, but both he and his rider couldn't handle it so he flew back to Westeros. Depression has a real effect on your physical health, that combined with an injury and the loss of another rider, and being forced into the dragon pit on his return. I think Balerion just kind of gave up.

When I read the world book I figured the Red Death was the result of a failed experiment to recreate dragons and riders, fire wyrms got crossed with people and a human epidemic disease or something. Crowfood's Daughter has a dragon origin video where she theorizes Aerea Targaryen caught the Red Death and the creatures were able to live longer and grow larger in her because of Valyrian heat resistance, that would be more pronounced in Balerion. How that ties into his injury I can't say, maybe the creature that attacked them was infected? Maybe fire wyrms start off microscopic, but that doesn't explain the hands and faces.

@michaeltalksaboutstuff

8 ай бұрын

Perhaps Balerion won the battle that scarred him and it was against an infected creature and they caught it either from the fight or from needing to survive by eating the meat from the thing he killed. Possibly he would have been too wounded to fly or hunt for a little while. All speculation but it is interesting to think about.

One random thought that came to mind while listening to this video but not particularly related to it: What if when Fire Dragons get old enough they turn into Ice Dragons? We are told that Ice dragons are far larger than Fire Dragons. We are also told that Fire Consumes but Ice Preserves, so maybe for a dragon to live many thousands of years and get truly gargantuan it must change from Fire to Ice.

@Fuckalope-cm5dk

3 ай бұрын

I fw that

Amazing. Thank you for solving got and bringing this man some peace.

ah yes, the "read one article, become an expert" method

This and Old Nan being a child of the forest, just pure gold! New subscriber 😍

Yeah, can believe a serious injury and/or a serious bacterial, viral, and/or parasitic infection taking a significant chunk out of a dragon’s lifespan

You're a description of balerion being an old school linebacker / war veteran made me LOL

I think they would have noticed if he had the worms. I think he was likely immune to them tbh.

What if that caused the demise of all the dragons? If he was in close quarters in the dragon pit they could have spread

Wonderful video, I had the same thoughts after learning about Aereas death I wondered the effects it had on him. Might I add the Targaryens were kept from the truth of what happened to the young princess. The Maesters said she died of shock or something to that extent when they put her in the cold water which is a major withholding of the truth😩 nobody knew what happened to her or Balerion

My personal head cannon is that it was Cannibal who attacked Balerion and aerea t. Who else would attack Balerion except something bigger...and with a rep for eating other dragons. 🤷‍♀️

I AGREE- Michael please take a look at the tapestry in HotD. Arent those orange things coming out of the dragon's head fire worms? You see them during the very beginning, I cant be the only one!!

I like the theory that dragons were created by crossing fire worms with wyverns, and then also addition blood and soul magic to soul bind them to families. So maybe what they found a full grown fire wyrm that was released from the earth during the doom.

I didid not even consider the possibility of him dying of the weird fire parasites till i read the title of the video but now I think about it makes so much sense

I can’t believe no else has thought of this before. It seems so obvious now that you brought it up. I’m totally sold on the Balerion died from Fireworms theory. Good job 👍 Edited to add that it would make sense that there was one dragon, maybe. Sheepstealer, floating around out there since dragons seemed to be linked to fire magic. It gets stronger after Dany hatches hers, but it never went away completely, so it would make sense for there to still be a dragon out there. I also like the idea of an extra dragon since I think Euron will end up with one by using Dragonbinder, and I don’t want him to steal one of the other ones lol. I think they’ll go to Dany (Drogon), Jon (Rheagal), and Aegon (Viseryion)

Here's a thought: could the parasites have spread? Vhagar was younger than Balerion, but much like Balerion himself she was a dying dragon, withered and weakening. That not a single Targaryen dragon survived to see 150 AC, less than 100 years after Balerion would have been infected, implies that something kill them all. And parasites spreading through the close quarters of the Dragonpit would certainly explain this disaster. It may also explain why dragons didn't grow as large - hard to grow when you're constantly healing internally from parasites eating you alive.

What a mind screw by GRRM to say one vague thing about a Dragon over Winterfell and then go radio dark.... WOW needs to happen soon!!!!

Hey man I've enjoyed a couple of your videos now and I hope more will see them too. Mayhap it's time to get a better index or table of contents in order? I've seen a good number of these videos and if I wanted to go back to one thing I heard again I have no idea how to find it lol. Still love the content.

@michaeltalksaboutstuff

8 ай бұрын

yeah I am trying to get a few smaller playlists grouped together by topic but it is a bit of a winding and long series haha I will see what I can do as I go here in terms of organizing them

@TheInsatiableDrBoom

8 ай бұрын

@michaeltalksaboutstuff Still you brought up an excellent idea in this video. Using Balerion as example for full length of a dragons age is short sighted. I'd have to imagine there were all kinds of specifically made dragons for different tasks on top crossbreeding, mutations, "magic". Are certain dragons now inbred after too many generations of parthnogenesis? Not enough attention goes to the idea of a 4th dragons or more.

always wondered if the war actions fueled the dragons and Balerion simply lacked blood magic later. Maybe he needed the most to be sustained because of his giant size.

@RubyAPBT

8 ай бұрын

Maybe it was because almost all the older dragons died and the older targaryens died too especially those with more magic in their blood. Dragons(at least Valirians) can have a magic that sustain each other but it may need adult dragons alive and people bonded with them to reinforce it especially those with hight "dragon blood" (Dragon lord blood not just any valiryan). Because Silverwing never bonded again. Sheepstealer may have bonded with a non targaryen at all. Moring hatched and bonded with Baela, but she had more Velaryon than Targaryen blood. Every generation that not married sister to brother married a velaryon or some relative to who married outside family. Like Viserys married to Aema(who her mother was married to an Arryn) or when he married Alicent. Daemon married Leana who had dragon lord blood, but was also a child of a velaryon. I guess that would be one of the reasons why dragon lords married brother to sister uncle to niece or cousin to cousin. Daenerys lost o lot of dragon lord blood by her generation however that meteor truly helped her hatch her dragon and it maked her blood full of dragon magic again but she soon will met the same problem because she have 0 brother who share this magic with her. All she have are people who may have a little bit of that old magic in their blood(Targaryen dragon lord blood) and the worse is she can't have children. So if their life are truly attached to their dragon lord blood and bond, Daenerys dragons will son die after her.

I have always been suspect about Balerion's wound and how it played into his death, but i didn't link it to Viserys' mystery illness until now. It clearly wasn't the same - no firewyrms with human faces like Aerea had - but some toxin from Balerion's infestation? Something passed from the bloodmagic bond of dragon and rider? That makes sense.

I love the worms theory! I hadn't thought about that before, but it seems obvious once you consider it. As you lay out, if humans can have worms for a long time (years) while slowly getting sicker & dying from loss of nutrients, it's definitely a logical inspiration for how Balerion died (given that he died only 40 years later). I do think another factor for the other dragons not living longer (besides war/ the Dance) is being kept in the Dragon Pit. We know that they grow bigger when free range & grow slower when locked up. (Viserion and Rhaegal grow slower once they're in Mereen and locked up.) So I think all of the Targ dragons, but also Balerion, did not grow & have as long of a life because they were kept in the Dragon Pit. (Who knows, maybe Balerion could have gotten rid of his parasite if he had remained free? Maybe not, but it probably didn't helped things.)

I didnt know Balerion died of old age, but I did watch a video earlier talking about the valyria trip and i assumed he was infected with the parasites too. I am someone who knows alot about reptile parasites and lifespans, solid work.

This should get a lot more attention than it has right now, makes a lot of sense

this sounds very realistic and plausible. theres no reason to think a seriously injured animal would live to max,often people and animals with permanent open wounds dont. it is also true that giant humans often die early bc of heart strain. i really enjoyed this theory and i think it makes sense,its a great way to explain old dragons still living without having to make a whole convoluted thing to retcon it kwim

I don’t think there was anything stated about anything coming out of Balerion when he died. But that could have easily been covered up by the maesters.

Balerion would probably be like “What, this little scratch? You should see the the other guy.”

What a great theory! Why wouldn’t dragons have parasites specific to them? When they tried to cross species and infected poor Araea, we saw the results- malformed, misbegotten things. I don’t think that incubating in Araea’s body much longer was possible, based on the condition we hear she is in. One worm was significantly larger than the others when they burst out- this sort of indicates that the infection didn’t take the way it was supposed to, otherwise there would be more full sized worms. I wonder how big they get after incubating in a dragon for a while? And one as big as Balerion, no less.

The size/longevity relationship you mention early on is valid ...look at dogs. The average lifespan of a great dane tends to be lower than that if a Chihuahua. Even without the parasitic worms, the injuries Balerion sustained in Valyria could've shortened his life.

Honestly I wouldn’t mind a short film or shot series about what balerion and Aerea did from when they left Westeros to Valyria leading up the fight between balerion and the supposed firewyrm, Aereas parasite infection and when they return to Westeros, we get to see balerion before his injury and see him actually fight something wether he kills it or retreats

I think you're totally right on this and can't believe I've never seen anyone else speculate that he picked up the same parasite as Aerea! Of course he would have!

The actual case to be made is pointing on a map and saying: I think this is where cannibal could have been for 200 years. A dragon will still require a lot of food and will be sighted no matter how sparsely populated the place is. This is why Skagos might be a good choice as the Skagosi are isolated and viewed as strange and wild. Also getting a dragon parasite together with a hefty wound? Seems like another infested dragon to me there. Would make more sense tho if Balerion would have tried to attack other dragons later on.

I just thought of something and wanted to share that is kind of random. Ghost was driven away from the other pups like skin changes are driven away from civil society (Not my idea). What if not all animals are not capable of handling a skin changer human. Like Ghost himself is an animal skin changer. Just thought that was kind of interesting.

What videos did you bring up sheep-stealer in already? Just wanna make sure I didn’t miss a video.

@michaeltalksaboutstuff

8 ай бұрын

The Old Nan video/theory was what I was referring to.

Still watching toward the beginning of the video but had a thought and wonder if they could live forever if fed. Perhaps their size makes them eventually be unable to get them off the ground to the point where they cannot feed themselves and with no food/blood their fires burn low and eventually out. I've read other fantasies like this with insanely bloated dragons and they basically couldn't move and had their minions constantly feed them

What I find interesting is that when people discuss the possibility of these dragons still being alive is that they're dismissive of it due to lack of records. But, someone like the Cannibal could've easily relocated? Especially since after the Dance there were almost no dragons left. Sure, if he predates the arrival of Targaryens to Westeros then he likely wasn't a cannibal originally but having developed a taste for dragons he would try seeking out more of them. Relocating to Essos is my first thought and we get very little info from Essos other than speculations like dragons still living in Valyria or beyond Asshai. Besides, there had to be other dragona that survived the Doom. If there are wild dragons in Westeros, then surely there were plenty on the continent they're native to. Additionally, there is another humongous and unmapped continent south of Essos / South-East of Westeros called Sothoryos that Jaenera tried to fly over and couldn't find the edge of even after three years of exploring. This place would provide plenty of food and a potential hiding place for other dragons. If I recall correctly it's a lush climate although dangerous with all the diseases that plague it. The majority of which might not affect dragons though as there are other creatures living there that clearly thrive there. Such animals would provide a great source of food as there are giant apes, snakes and even wyverns. The latter two would fit Cannibal's diet. Alternatively the legendary Ice Dragons, if they truly exist, could be a food source if they're not made of living ice as some claim. Too much speculation in this case so I won't go into details other than "yes, we are told they're bigger than Valyrian dragons. However, Cannibal could hunt the younger smaller ones or their eggs"

Now I'm just imagining these creatures like the microorganisms around hydrothermal vents, only supersized. The idea that the volcanic regions of what was once Valeria are infested with with what are essentially highly aggressive land based deep sea organisms is mildly terrifying

I'VE BEEN SAYING THIS!! He didn't die of old age. None of them did.

What sort of function might these dragon parasites play in our stories future?

@michaeltalksaboutstuff

8 ай бұрын

I have always wondered this about Aerea and her story. I kinda now think they might serve to make us seriously have to doubt the "Balerion died of old age" claims in case GRRM wants to establish one of these older still living dragons. Other than that I don't see how they come back as I doubt we have much time to have a dragon catch them in our main story.

@YinYoo2011

8 ай бұрын

@@michaeltalksaboutstuff thanks for the great response- and also for a previous questions response; I didn’t say so then, but I appreciated it.

@TheInsatiableDrBoom

8 ай бұрын

They may explain Monster babies. Maybe they come from certain fire wights. Maybe maegor produced them.

Thanks for all the imagination fodder! I have been hoping to give something back. I have an hypothesis! Woot! Aerea and (accepting this theory) Ballerion return with parasites at a time when we have already been guided to believe another cause was at hand leading to the diminishing of dragon size. It could have been the parasites, not the dragon pits, that were the "final nail in the dragon coffin". Dany's dragons, and the two you hypothesized about here, would not have had contact with Balerion or other dragons that had a contact chain to him, since his return from Valleria. What do you think? I respect science, so I got no ego in it. Something disproved is knowledge, too.

This makes a lot of sense and I like the idea 💡, I think this is a fact honestly

a little interesting fact we have, is that besides maegor and Aerea, (and id still say maegor is one but we never get his perspective) have been dreamers. Daenys and Aegon had major prophetic dreams that at least according to HOTD, have shaped house targaryen.

How well did that go quote while remembering the Storming of the Dragonpit of 131 A.C.

Good read, sounds plausible

I think about this, and I think about how well, I'm no expert, I don't know anything, but could the parasites have spread to other dragons, affecting overall longevity for the breed? Most of them are all in one centralized dragon pit with no mask mandate

Ever since I heard the story about Balerion being wounded in old Valyria, I've believed that he did not die of old age, but because of the infection.

This is a very important theory‼️

I think Aerea was pregnant. Those things had human faces because they were part human. Or part Valyrian. I think Valyrians were using magic to hybridize worms and other creatures to make dragons. And to make sure their power could not be stolen and they could not be overthrown they also altered their own genes to include themselves in dragon life-cycles. Targaryen presence is needed to bond with and hatch dragons. Aerea found some creature that was part of this life-cycle and it impregnated her with those things. I think that's why the maesters were horrified. Not only did the worms have human faces they had HER face. i think this explains why Targaryens regularly birth things said to have wings, tails and scales, because they do give birth to them because their genetics are part dragon and that causes weird hybrid creatures to be born sometimes.

it can also be argued that Vhagar is wrinkly at about 180, which is typically associated with old age. It would be reasonable that fire worms did Balerion dirty, but there is some evidence that towards 200 years dragons are considered old. Typically old living things are expected to decline to a point where they are ready to pass away. This doesn't mean no dragon could live more than 200, or that Balerion wouldn't have had more life left in him under different circumstances. Edited for typos.

Even if we take Balerion's youngest canon age, he would've been 208 at his death. If we take Cannibal's supposed birth year of 114 BC, he would've been 243 at the start of the Dance of Dragons. A full 35 years older, and considered a formidable fighter. This means that dragons could, and should get much older than Balerion

Imagine Viserys reign with a healthy Balerion under his command. I would have liked to see that

You know... animals in caged environments tend to spread parasites to the other animals really quickly. Perhaps this is actually why the Targaryen dragons all became stunted? Because of the parasites? So the dragon pit did cause the dragons to stunt, but because they all got sick?

Do you have any satisfying explanation for where sheep stealer could have been hiding all this time? And where she would’ve gone once delivered Nan to wherever they could go? Do you think she could fly over the wall if she went high enough like agon did at Herron hell

regarding a dragon living in the north unnoticed? 1) the north is largely sparsely inhabited. if it didnt kill people and just flew off with sheep occasionally it woudve been written off as just people stealing or predators, or even the animal wandering off 2) the north is sparsely inhabited, meaning there is more wildlife. sheepstealer may have just hunted, not needing to take domestic prey at all. 3)i live in the north of the US. if youre outside around winter its dark a lot, and its cold day or night. visibility wouldnt be great in the snow. visibility wouldnt be great in the dark. visibility wouldnt be great in forested mountains, especially not above the cloudline. also youre less likely to want to be outside looking at the total lack of visibility in the cold, unless you enjoy being a popsicle. 4)dragons can be stealthy. a (relative to other dragons) small skinny animal thats tree colored could probably just hide if people *did* come near it. it could probably just back into a bush, fold its wings, stretch out its neck, slit its eyes and hold really still, pretending its a log. gators do it all the time. basically what im saying is, if a tree looking dragon with no taste for human flesh hunted wild sheep or boars or deer or bears and came out mostly at night was living in a cave in the mountains above the cloudline, i doubt anyone would know, nor care. also... how would Aerea have caught said parasites? also also... not all creatures that steal life from others try to keep their hosts alive. there are also parasitoids, whose natural lifecycle involves killing the host, such as some kinds of wasp

'I bet he smokes too' got me man

THANK YOU, i never swallowed the stupid idea that balerion died of old age, it also makes no sense for the worms to be inside of only Aerea.

DRAGONWORM THEORY BAYBEEEEEE

@michaeltalksaboutstuff

8 ай бұрын

I was gonna mention this one to you guys haha I remember your episode wondering about that. I would officially like to submit my answer as they were there to show Balerion had dragon parasites and call into question his death by "Old Age". With Aerea we got to see a horrible example of how it goes when a person catches them.

@InterestingNerdClub

8 ай бұрын

Extremely high quality video. Any video with Aerea is one I like.@@michaeltalksaboutstuff

There was another theory regarding individual dragon size being related to death magic, specifically that of killing humans; much of asoiaf magic involves a cost and often that cost is somebody's life, and dragons are regularly called magical. The theory goes that the reason newborn dragons grew gradually smaller post maegor is due to the extended peace and resulting lack of dragons seeing combat. Extending this, if a dragon of a certain size needs a minimum baseline of murder to sustain them magically, maybe balerion was not being sustained sufficiently, hence his trip to valeria?

David Lightbringer brought me here, by the way. I'm glad he did.

It's possible the worm-things that infected Aerea weren't the same parasites that infected Balerion, they were its young (they reportedly only died by immersion in ice water which presumably wouldn't be common in Valyria). Larval creatures consuming whatever they were laid in/on isn't common, but it certainly happens in our world (caterpillars/lettuce leaves, Spiders/their mother, etc.)

Do you think that all the dragons became affected by this parasite, leading to them being infertile? Never thought of it before, but the last dragon hatched was worm like.

Reptiles are also much different than mammals. Many continue to grow and only stop when they die, the amount of nutrients they need increasing with their size and ultimately being the limiting factor for their lifespan as they age. Reptiles are also much more dependent on their environment and are less active. Large ones like alligators can have one large meal last them months.