Using reference (or not) is a debate of art students. Professionals use reference constantly. The great masters (davinci, etc) used references to an extreme degree. Really, only younger art students debate this because the derive pride in "drawing from memory", which is trivial in the end.

@emilycreamer1307

6 жыл бұрын

PerfectPencil I think the real issue is straight up reproducing another artist's drawing (versus using a real life image). Also, saying "this group of people did it so it's okay" is sort of a weak argument no matter what the topic is. I think there are other better reasons for and against references.

@leelisichka7066

6 жыл бұрын

Serendipity Emily, I haven't seen anyone advocate for straight up reproducing another artists work. So I don't know how that's the real issue on using refs. It appears the conversation is mostly directed at real life images and such. Pointing out that prominent artists used refs throughout history is a valid point. To leave out historical context when you have it doesn't strengthen ones argument.

@PerfectPencil

6 жыл бұрын

Using reference and copying an existing painting are not equivalents and shouldn't be confused. You should be using photographs or real models for reference, not someone else's completed painting. You can use another person's completed work for inspiration borrowing color elements, poses, expressions and so on, but it ceases to be reference if you straight copy the art. Copying original art is a good learning exercise, but is not the same as reference usage.

@TULIP.1689

6 жыл бұрын

Aldewyne the problem being addressed is how many students of art refuse to copy things from life or good photos because they would rather make up their own version of things...and spend years spinning their wheels instead of using tried and true methods to learn art.

@angela_somanythings5670

6 жыл бұрын

HerMajestyBarebone - yep Happened to me.. 2004-2010 .. now that my son is 4 , i am finally getting back to my true talent, and references are important for making final pieces that hold their own! Now i know!!! Needing to not fear the loss of time and commit to myself & to believe in my process!!

Using reference is often absolutely necessary. The idea that art somehow must spring entirely from the mind of the artist is nonsense. Artists are craftsmen, not mystics. It's that removal of art from the realm of work that makes it so hard to make a living as an artist today.

@tanjabc1017

5 жыл бұрын

yes and you learn from it so you will be able to draw without references later maybe :)

@artcraftandcooking6958

5 жыл бұрын

Can I use brustro watercolour?

You can approve or disapprove of references as you please and no harm is done. The problem starts when you start expressing your opinion aggressively and putting others down for their opinion.

@lauraacan8255

6 жыл бұрын

THIS

@FinbyOasta

5 жыл бұрын

I Sirusly agree with you.

For me i can't draw from my imagination it's looks like a child draw and i don't know why but with refrences my drawings looks beautiful

@Alecexo

6 жыл бұрын

The Artist's Pen that’s a problem

@dwuddle

6 жыл бұрын

Xans hmm no it’s not? People use art references to improve and if Artist Pen keeps practicing and using references then hopefully in the future they’ll be able to make art from their imagination

@theartistspen7808

6 жыл бұрын

Matt Murdock ohh thank you i always practice i hope i will improve 😀😀

@Alecexo

6 жыл бұрын

using references isnt the problem. the problem is if you can draw only as good as a stick figure without references but can draw a hyper realistic piece from references perfectly. that is a skill in copying, not in art and it means you need to work on your actual skill asap. im sure this case is not as extreme but you really need to have your without reference work atleast 75% as good as your referenced work.

@ikonen2490

6 жыл бұрын

I have the same problem

My Architecture professor always tells us to stop being "original" because all the architectural building types have already been invented, we won't be ushering in a new building type anytime soon, and that our job as Architects is to take the "tools" given to us (beams, columns, walls, etc.) and create a working composition from them. It's ok to look at what's been done in the past because when you get right down to it they all were used with the same "tools" as well. Of course this does not mean to directly copy a building. But to learn the language of the materials and implement them as such.

@maharanient6636

4 жыл бұрын

True lol. My father has been professional architect for 30+ years and the only original thing he did is making window-sized hole on the wall that connects two rooms.

References: Yay ̶̶o̶̶r̶̶ ̶̶n̶̶a̶̶y̶ :)

@skorqion_art

6 жыл бұрын

Drawinglikeasir Ok... interessant dich hier vorzufinden. Aber ja sich Referenzen zu nehmen ist gut!

@1998Azze

6 жыл бұрын

Yay!

@flemli8314

6 жыл бұрын

Yay 😉

@skorqion_art

6 жыл бұрын

that´s pretty accurate! This is basically what I said: Intersting that I found you here. But yes using references is good! To be fair I worded the 2nd sentence poorly. I could´ve also said: "Aber ja, Referenzen zu benutzen ist gut!" Referenzen nehmen= taking references, but "using references" is more fitting! If you wanna learn german, go fot it. It´s not easy tho ,but I´m sure you could do it!

@dannithey-he8039

6 жыл бұрын

Yay

i rarely use references myself, but theres just some things you *cant* draw without a reference

@juniper5979

5 жыл бұрын

*cough cough* hands *cough cough*

@amadeuschavez.

4 жыл бұрын

MarshMalow725 Hands are easy to draw

@spilledteaissadtea3037

3 жыл бұрын

CJ I wish I was you. I’d sell my soul to Satan himself if hands were easy to me

I usually draw with a references...some people don't like that .. but I believe I'll do that until get enough experience to had ideas I got from ref. ^^

@lunarcraves

6 жыл бұрын

Rukia San I use references so I can remember the small details of things. I may not copy the exact image but it helps to have a clear vivid image compared to a fuzzy memory

@makarm369

6 жыл бұрын

It's good thing I got wt u meant

@makarm369

6 жыл бұрын

Yep^^

@makarm369

6 жыл бұрын

Wow it great words

@rebekanickell8451

6 жыл бұрын

Rukia San I draw with references but its like, "an eye here" *next pic* "this is the eyebrows" *next pic* "ooooh nice makeup" So yeah, my "art" is a mix of references.

I really don't understand why some people are against the use of references. You can't remember what everything looks like just from thinking about them, and using references is a way of learning. I use references all the time in my art

technically there's no such thing as painting with no reference it just means that person has painted the same thing enough that they can draw it from memory such as a hand or a certain type of nose. also could painting from life be considered a reference? If I do a panting of a flower in my garden would it be called copying as I didnt make the flower just painted it.

@RaspberryMalina190817

6 жыл бұрын

Penholder Art no that's your original drawing that you independently created. Copying is looking at an artist's picture and basically reproducing it with little to no difference. Referencing would be taking aspects of something and using it in your original art.

I cant draw from memory and I think I lack of creativity so references are a must for me.

@minaisfab17

6 жыл бұрын

Same for me ✋✋

I've always thought anyone who thinks using references for art is cheating have obviously never had any formal art training.

@Haylla2008

6 жыл бұрын

I have and using references is about 90% of it.

@LilChuunosuke

6 жыл бұрын

I've never met someone with formal art training whose professor didn't at least heavily suggest that they use references for their work. They may recommend to reference their own photos and surroundings as much as possible, but to expect them to create great work without any references? Not once have I heard of that happening.

@lupusincidus

6 жыл бұрын

Well, then I suppose you are disregarding the work of hundreds of professional and very much admired artists such as Da Vinci and Michaelangelo. All of the greats used reference. Reference allows you to create a far more realistic image and it's a great way to learn. Plus, not having formal art training doesn't mean your skill is any lesser or any less valuable. Self taught artists can be every bit as good as formally taught artists.

@lupusincidus

6 жыл бұрын

And, most formal art training heavily recommends references. They do tend to specify it should be photographs you have taken, but they still highly recommend it and you're taught to use it. Speaking from experience.

@Kayworx

6 жыл бұрын

I think you're misunderstanding my original comment. I'm a big believer in using references, and I think anyone who says its cheating don't know anything about art history or have had any formal art training, so you're kind of preaching to the choir?

"Da Vinci dug up corpses for God's sakes".... Best point Ever! Edit ~ 10 Months later: Oh god, So. Many likes >.< Thank y'all

@augustine.c8204

6 жыл бұрын

He studied physical structures though, not flat single images. I guess it really depends on how you define "reference"

@CydMindful

6 жыл бұрын

Someone walked into Michelangelo's studio as he was working on a beautiful female form and was asked who his model was. Michi pointed to a filthy old pauper in the corner and said, "He was." You have to start somewhere with something, reference something. But you also have to draw from nothing. I consider it a metaphor for life itself. You can't draw anything without making a line, erasing it, trying again, erasing, checking proportions and erasing. It's a practice for making mistakes and getting back up again without feeling defeated or lacking in skills. That's how I start everything, and *then* go to references, lots of them.

@augustine.c8204

6 жыл бұрын

I think the concept of an artwork matters a lot, and that there's less confinement upon the artist when you start with your idea, and then use references as a tool. After all, artists are artists and not technicians, and sure references can be changed into something original and unique, but I think the idea matters more to start with. Really appreciate your insight into this :)

@mercy5004

6 жыл бұрын

I like to start with an emotion I want the piece to have, and then I collect references based on that. By focusing more on how I want the piece to FEEL, even as I continue to use the references, I can twist the references into what I want.

@sassymedea3065

6 жыл бұрын

Cyd Madsen look at Michelangelo female statues. They look like muscular men with lumps, maybe he should have used a reference.

Of course references are okay! If you draw a duck from memory (unless you’ve been drawing ducks for years and years and your brain very much knows the exact anatomy of a duck) then it’s going to turn out a bit weird because it’s what your brain thinks a duck looks like versus how an actual duck looks, if you’re going to spend hours sketching pages of anatomy practice, you’ll need to look at lots of photos of poses or in turn, if you want to add a special type of flower to your drawing that you only saw once when you were ten,...you’ll have to look up a reference pic of it. It’s okay if you can’t draw from memory, most people can’t (I mean yes we can, it just won’t be accurate most of the time).

@courage552

6 жыл бұрын

You hit the nail on the head

I just want to say there is a difference between COPYING and USING A REFERENCE! I use reference to help me when I draw details, it's really usefull. Sometimes copying a drawing is ok, as long as you only do it to practice, you do not claim it as your own and credit the original artist.

I use references all the time. I don't find anything wrong with it as long as you bring something new to it. I mean writers create stories inspired by other literature all the time. Jaws is based on Moby Dick. Romeo and Juliet is based on a Greek story called Pyramus and Thisbe. Avatar is basically Pocahontas in space. NOTHING IS 100% ORIGINAL!

@courage552

6 жыл бұрын

Exactly

@suides4810

5 жыл бұрын

honey, there is a big difference between inspiration and straight copying like he does

@lurkerofthenight

5 жыл бұрын

@@suides4810 You...clearly weren't listening to his points in the video then.

@talimpalim

3 жыл бұрын

I "like" how people use the word "honey" to bring other people down and represent them as "dumb" while acting smart with their noses in the sky Or as Marshall would say: "Oh honey..."

I think it’s perfectly fine. I do both without reference and with reference. I don’t know who these people who complain are, but with art you can do whatever you want. It really doesn’t matter as long as it isn’t a blatant copy of existing art.

What happened to art has no rules?? As long as no one has completely copied someone’s artwork and sold it off as there own I see no problem with using references. Artist never stop learning and developing new styles and skills. We should encourage each other to keep drawing and not hold each other back :)

I recognize that photo from another blog artist I follow. I bet she copied it also. Nothing wrong with using references, as an artist you still need to make it look amazing, which you did. I am also a photographer and take many photos to have a reference.

I think even good artists use references. Because references help to envision. If someone is not good at anatomy, it's best to use reference before creating wonky proportions and learning from experience. Because some try to experiment with anatomy without reference and there will be people bashing them for not knowing anatomy well. And in other times will criticise the use of references when drawing buildings. The bottom line is: use what makes you comfortable, practice, practice, practice and just don't copy exactly brush for brush what another artist did. That's the fine line between reference and stealing.

I'd say definitely use references especially if you are at the beginning of your art journey. If you don't use them initially you risk memorising things wrong while references help you create a correct mental library of how things actually look. It also gives you a lot of confidence because with references the art you create will look less stiff and just less "off". In my experience sooner or later you will depart from the reference images anyways to add your own flavour and style and eventually you might abandon references altogether or just use them for really critical subjects that you're not used to drawing. I wish I didn't start drawing at a time when the use of references was shamed. It would have made my study process faster and less stressful

To me, references are just an essential of art. It helps express your art better, and helps you improve much faster as we’ll. One of the main aspect of art is to observe around you and try your best to express your art. I think it’s totally fine to use references, as long as you aren’t tracing.

I really love your channel and your videos. The way you speak about these art-related topic is really good because it is easy to follow what you are trying to say and because your arguments are good and well-structured. And that painting is absolutely gorgeous

I realllly love your artworks Laovaan, I end up leaning towards digital art but seeing your work makes me want to get better with my watercolors again

FIRST... IM BIG FAN OF YOU BRO... COOL..

@ehmjhayevelasco1896

6 жыл бұрын

same here

For me it has to be a case by case thing. I’m an amateur watercolor painter and I’m not the most skilled portrait drawer. So I will use reference photos of real people and paint with my own technique or practice with established techniques. In my head I don’t think I’m stealing because I’m trying to make it my own/wanting to improve my artistry. I think the hardest part of this whole debate is INTENT. Just from looking at two works of art, no one can know if the INTENT was to steal or copy. People could technically accuse me of copying because I intentionally looked up an image to use and reference. But I do think there are grey areas. The amount of times I have argued with someone who doesn’t draw or paint saying that my stuff is not original is just annoying. But that’s just my opinion

@lynn4606

6 жыл бұрын

If you reproduced someone else’s painting exactly that is copying. Now if you painted something similar and made it your own by changing things then that’s not copying. There is a huge difference between using something as inspiration and copying.

Your artbook is back?? Ahhhh finally!! :D *buys immediately* this piece is so beautiful - the flower detailing is stunning

Totally agree with you :) Gorgeous work! You are so talented!!

totally agree with you! And a big OH WOW for this beautiful, delicate, and inspirational last piece of yours.

I know references definitely help me improve my sketching and work in general, this is an awesome topic I'm glad you covered it

References are a must... sorry.

I 100% agree with you. It's all about how you use them :D. Beautiful painting. I have no idea how you get things to look so smooth but i am impressed

Thank you for this amazing advice

your colors sense are so pretty! I love your arts so much

This dude has some godly levels of artistic skill.

This painting turned out gorgeous!! Also a very interesting topic, I like your thoughts on it

Beautiful work!

I am a huge fan of your work! Also, I use references with almost every piece I create. I see no shame in it.

I am all for references. As you were explaining I too thought of songs. Same process. Amazing work!

i totally agree with you. We have clearly exaggerated the concept of using references. Honestly even while designing OCs, we have to use references for drawing poses

The painting looks awesome it looks super elegant

your control of hues and values on such an unforgiving medium as watercolor is just out of this world ✨

A minute into the video and I forgot you were speaking. I was so absorbed in your painting process!

This is a good topic to discuss but I feel that whenever talking about the use of references one should also contemplate why and how references are used. Using references doesn't automatically negate the "drawing from your imagination" aspect since you can get a sketch done but feel unsure about anatomy etc for which you pull a reference to fix the anatomical errors. This already shows that when you arr using references you already have a clear intent and you know what you want to take from the reference. Unless you are tracing and trying to copy something exactly as is using references doesn't mean copying. The final piece likely ends up being significantly different from the source material because you choose what you take from the reference and how you use it. Also, using references builds your mental library. Very, very few artists are such geniuses that they can summon an image or an object and draw it from their mind. Using references supports drawing from imagination as it makes you more familiar with different subjects through study and observation. Using references is a safe method to learn and to also avoid basic mistakes and naivety. They help you grow and expand your skills. You can keep trying to reinvent the wheel and draw a subject from imagination and never get it quite right or use references and figure out where you went wrong and stop making silly mistakes. I would argue that references are very essentila for anyone who wants to be even slightly serious about art.

Gorgeous art work!

References are great!

References help me for when there is a position, type of wrinkles, clothing material, or anything that would otherwise have me stuck trying to 'imagine' what it would look like. Without references, it would also be very difficult to picture in your head what that object/item/thing/etc. would even look like to begin with, especially if it is foreign named or not native to your area (cultural anthropology courses help in this a lot). One learns through observation and putting those observations into practice. In that sense, if you do observations like crazy from references, you end up retaining that information to the point that references may not be as needed anymore for certain things, but they are still vital in being able to move forward on projects (this is my opinion). Great video!!

i really really really love your work!.. you're my inspiration.

Yey! If you directly copy the references by tracing or the like then that's plagiarizing. I think the use of copying when you're a younger artist has slightly more leeway, but not when they claim that it's theirs. References are pivotal to all artists in order to get the right form of their subject.

This might be my favorite piece you’ve done! It’s just so beautiful! I’m going to art school next year and I love watching your videos and I follow your Instagram. I use your videos a lot for reference on using watercolor or using certain colors together. Our styles are very different though haha

Thank you for making this video, it was very helpful!

I actually used to use a lot of references, until I was told that I shouldn't because it looked too close to doing the original, so now, if I use a physical reference, it's usually for a special occasion. So for the most part, it comes out of my head. But references do make it so much easier, and I've actually started using them again to improve my skills.

The painting you did is so beautiful. 💖💖💖

This artwork is so amazing!!

omg voll schön 😍

Using references has consistently helped me to become a better artist, so that even when I am not using them I have gained skill and insight I would not have had otherwise. Some of the best things I allowed myself to do is print photos and sketch the general shapes over them. It helped me to get a feel on what sort of curves, shapes, lines, etc. I should be using to create the things I have envisioned in my head already. I would encourage any artist to do these things if they are struggling!

I'm only a few months in to actually drawing and OH LORD had referencing has made it SO MUCH BETTER than it would be without it. I am now on my sixth sketchbook and now that I look back at my first one I have come a long way in a few months.

I needed this

This question is creating a storm in my head. And you always take most needed topic for the conversation. I know where to go when in confusion related to art ☺️

@gauravborra8391

6 жыл бұрын

So can i use your artwork as a reference and not be called as cheat ? 😅

Beautiful💕

So beautiful !💕

I teach art in public schools and always push my students to use references. I find that when my students use reference material their art has a lot more detail. In college art classes I was told when using a reference you have to change something at least 20% to make it your own .

I use references all the gosh dang darn time! I use them for a pose and to make sure that my drawing is more proportionally correct. I don’t always use a reference, but they sure are helpful!

Beautiful artwork and wise words. Thank you

Oh my god. Such an amaaazing piece of art :3♡

I agree! Love your talent!!!

Beautiful painting reference yay

Lisa from Lachri Fine Art did this same portrait. She is big on using reference photos, but she also works in photorealism. Anyway I love your take on this portait. It's wonderful to see each person's interpretation of a single subject. It goes to show how different we are. Beautiful work.

I just want to say your art is your art. To me all art is beautiful. Art can be anything of it means something to you. Don't let someone or something else interfere with your talent.

You can't write a book without ever reading one. I admire your work so much btw, you're a true inspiration 💜

I am so glad to encounter this video. I have been dependent on references for several months since I stopped drawing for more than 3 decades. I am in my late 40's now and it's so hard to draw from own imagination considering I am taking some medications on my back issues and trying to create drawings on my own are difficult. I never claim references as my own, but as a practice.. Thanks again for this, it relieved me from feeling bad using references.

Yay,! These watercolor is amazing,. Astonishing color palette

Gorgeous picture as always!

Great video. Good use of art history and personal storytelling..

For me using references is a great way to practice. What I believe is important when using references or copying and posting it, is to credit where your received your influence.

Great video and that painting you did is gorgeous. For me - using references is a necessity. It makes the drawing process faster, which is very useful for people like me who have health issues. We should still be allowed to draw even if we can't spend as much time doing sketches as other artists. I think this is something people should take into consideration when they criticize others for using references.

You presented the case for references very fairy. I use them a lot, when drawing something unfamiliar, or as a guide to perspective and anatomy.

That's the same reference photo that Lisa from Lachri fine art used for a huge portrait. She transferred it and did color pencil. Beautiful work.

I do love it when people say they are inspired by, when they use references from another artwork.

Love your art

Bloody breathtaking work

I find it funny when people bring up the old masters as a source of non referenced art while Caravaggio many more Renascence artists dead ass traced most of their paintings.

@highstax_xylophones

6 жыл бұрын

marumyau : yep, even this guy...glorified coloring books

Stunning painting 💜

i usually always use a reference. i have also found that asking models on instagram for reference use is so helpful so you can avoid that bs about "copying". i have found most instamodels really appreciate art and references are in abundance on that app.

Your work is absolutely beautiful 💖 great advice too love you or view on references 👍

This is beautiful 🤩

Hello. I always need to look at something when I make a drawing. My god you are so talented. You made her look absolutely beautiful ! ! :D

I think it’s absolutely fine. If it’s extremely close and obvious, a credit should be involved. But adding your own twist to a piece shouldn’t be labelled as copying. Everything we do has been inspired, even if you don’t have an image beside you.

Wow! I really like it! Your arts by my photos are incredible, thank u! Shocked to see this here:)

I use references for everything! Great video

I use references all the time. Especially when I'm sculpting. You can't sculpt a perfect skull without getting to see the actual shapes of the skull. So I say, references: YAY!!

Ever since I started using references I have gotten better at drawing figures that are just not a portrait.

Thank you!

Beautiful piece, and this is a case where I think you've changed it enough to call it an original, you basically used the reference for the pose and nothing else. I was always taught that is the way to use references properly if you aren't using stock photos and painting them as they are. For me, references depend on the piece, some are clear in my head and others ideas that I need a few references to mix together in my mind to get the right light, pose and colors. Great video and it is an interesting topic.

I have good visual memory so my references normally just give me guidelines and I vaguely ever come close to get a piece to look like the reference at all. Sometimes my reference is just a picture of certain art style if I wish to do fanart in said style and just serves as a reminder of what style I'm pretending to draw in. It depends a lot in the person, as I said, my visual memory is extremely strong so that might be the reason I don't need to rely on references that heavily, but that variates from person to person. I have also to say I don't idolize too much artists that merely do an exact copy (of photos, for example) of things since I feel it really doesn't have anything "special" (the art is in how they copied it exactly, but... the result is just a mere copy at the very end)

I think it's a good ay to research poses, details or things like that. I totally agree with you. ^^

References are only a problem when someone tries to take claim the idea or subject as original

@SmillyDonut

6 жыл бұрын

TheCatsMeow Good point.

@mercy5004

6 жыл бұрын

Well depends on how they use the reference. Like lets say you take a cake, and you reference it to make a girl. They are completely different, but you used the color scheme, general design, and elements used in the cake's design to make the character, making it a massive reference. Then lets say you take several more references, a reference to the hairstyle/clothing, and a reference for the facial expression, as well as about five more references to build a background. At that point the idea/subject does become original because upon looking at the piece, no one would ever know it was ever made using references, even when you placed the references side by side with it. Of course, most beginning artists don't go through this process when they start to learn the glory of referencing...but you definitely see it with more professional artists and illustrators, who stop listing references simply because there are so many and so different from the finished piece that it would be redundant to do so.

@TheCatsMe00w

6 жыл бұрын

OKay, but it's usually beginners who fall into plagiarizing instead of inspiration and follow a reference to a T. Not using it for color schemes.

@mercy5004

6 жыл бұрын

I know but what I was trying to more say was that...you can follow a reference to a T, so long as you use multiple references in your work. Like lets say you have a photo of a girl. You trace over the photograph, maybe tweak the eyes a bit (like Laovaan did). But then you want her to have a raven on her shoulder, so you take a photo of a raven and place it, trace it into your girl drawing. Then you take a picture of a forest, a pond and some feathers. You want to have a background of a forest with a pond in it, while feathers float around. So you trace the trees, trace the pond, and then trace the feathers. Then you color it all, and you have an original image. This is the recommended way to use references for those who cannot "free hand draw" as referenced by my art and media professors. You can trace a reference line for line (preferably a photograph, tracing finished art is frowned upon) and it still be okay so long as you learn how to mix and match references and alter the piece to what your message is. This is how photoshopped images can be original, although they often use stock photos in their work. The same goes for artists. This isn't to say that it is better than drawing from imagination, but that if you struggle with it, this is what's reccommended so that you can at least set up a composition and then stylize it with your own techniques. I hope this kind of explains what I was trying to say earlier

@jamesandchante

5 жыл бұрын

Yeah, I get what you're saying. I don't trace photos, but I look at several very closely in order to copy several parts of various photos to a T, until I make an original photo that isn't that mush like the one I referenced.

Very beautiful ,one of your bestpainting

7:36 Come on Mucha !!!! Hands down my favorite illustrator ever :D

Most of the time I don't draw with reference, mostly because I'm too lazy to look it up or I don't know what to look for. So I only use references for anatomic details or nature. But when I do use references I really liked the process so I should do it more often!