Oh gosh I didn’t think about the fact that that video that involved Vanguard Tactics doxxed that guy by showing his face. and then just packing up your things and going while on camera does seem like you’re showing how great you are (i don’t blame him though).

@caspianbchalphy

Жыл бұрын

Also the creator of the sport named it Soccer. I’m just respecting him by calling it what he wanted it to be called lol

@northernexile

Жыл бұрын

Neither do I! As I said if he were not on camera I think he acted in the exact right way. Its just the fact that the entire Dicebreaker video was basically presenting the lad like a hero and then he does a thing like that, didn't really paint him in a good light. If he's doing that then on camera who's to say he's not doing that all the time and losing his rag at opponents? He says it himself in the video that its a bad look, which is why I think he's not like that normally. But still. Also yeah they did show a blurb underneath the video asking people not to attack the guy and that he agreed to be filmed, but then didn't remove his face from the video when things clearly went pear shaped and made him look really bad. Anyone with half a brain blurs the guy's face just incase let's be honest.

@cloudst850

Жыл бұрын

… so the term soccer originated in Great Britain, so it’s your fault.

WH40k will never go that big on the pro level for one simple reason. Games with big leagues need clear and well written rules that do not leave room for interpretation.

I've certainly grown tired of the prevalence of meta chasing behaviour in my local group. Back when I started in 9th edition I tried to keep up with overtuned lists by buying what I was told was good online until I got tired of it. Even in 10th when I sat looking at cool combos in the index, friends from my group had already figured out extremely overtuned combos. I certainly think an overly competitive mindset has begun to bleed into the hobby at a casual level, to its detriment. It's why I'm firmly a fun/thematic player now.

@robinfox4440

Жыл бұрын

This is the Way. I play with a small group of players and Rule of Cool is our guiding principal. If someone turns out to have an overly powerful list, he'll dial it back a bit and get things to a fair state so you can enjoy playing with what you have, instead of feeling like you have to spend buckets of cash to keep up.

@joshjonson2368

Жыл бұрын

Where can I find you so I can avoid playing with sweaty man children?

@liamhgd581

Жыл бұрын

This is exactly why I don't play anymore

@blacktemplarbrotherlucius1935

Жыл бұрын

Same, I'm the only person in my local area who plays space marine and still uses firstborn. I've been getting alot of shit for it too since i win more than i lose. I've had all my dice checked if I'm cheating twice now. People hating that someone not fallingnthe meta can still win.

@jester12341

11 ай бұрын

Unsolicited advice is quite grating, like, I already have plenty of hobbies that I sweat at, I don't have to play a tournament worthy list and game in my downtime.

One thing that separates 40k from the whole esports thing is the amount of incovenience. Imagine two guys sitting in a room where one decides to become a pro gamer, and the other a pro 40k diceroller, both starting from scratch. Guy #1 can be back in the room with.a brand new computer he popped out to buy, and playing his first round within the hour. Meanwhile, guy #2 is clipping out the first bits for the first of his 50+ new minis. Then he has to assemble them. Then he has to paint them. Then he has to pack them up and physically travel to a place where he can actually play with another human being, but not before he reads several books and watches many videos to grasp the basics. Finally, after what has probably been several days, he plays his first game, one that itself takes two hours. He loses spectacularly, of course. How many rounds of whatever popular videogame did guy #1 play in the meantime from the comfort of his couch? Would football be as popular if you had to first sew the ball together?

@taylor6496

Жыл бұрын

With such an example, it really is oranges and apples comrade. One is a hobby that provides creative outlet, rewards diligence with a table top spectacle and social growth (as a casual player). There's something physical there you can take pride in as it's from the labour of your own hand. The other is recreational - with focus around ease of access and more immediate gratification. A lot of games include the potential for your effort to be undermined by anyone through the convenience of mico-transactions. You could be playing that game for years and be no closer to anything resembling, community or fulfilment. One corrective update or patch and your class, progression or sense of progress has been heavily impacted. The next expansion comes out then you are no longer at the top of the pecking order. If you have a hobbyist an a gamer in the same room, the two don't have to be mutually exclusive, but in that moment they are in two very separate places. If the hobbyist has remained focused on his chosen system/faction over the same period of time. He's going to have an incredible theatre of war sitting on his/the tabletop with some awesome stories (granted, a number of bad experiences too). Perhaps a few legitimate friends/bonds have been made which will look quite different to the online counterpart. Also, if you are buying-in just to throw yourself at the most bleeding competitive edge....such a person is already at a loss, having lost sight of the point of the hobby (of which playing as a game is part of). Then again....I've been in the 40k eco system since 2nd ed. I've never been competitive or have never really had anything to prove. All fluff, fun and supportive comradery. The game doesn't seem to resemble anything close to that these days.

@Stierlitz

Жыл бұрын

@@taylor6496 Well... yeah! That`s exactly my point. Gaming and 40k are indeed very different activities, therefore grafting the whole pro esports approach to 40k doesn`t make much sense and is robbing it of all the other aspects you mentioned yourself. That being said, I`m afraid it`s going to happen regardless because there`s a lot of potential money in it.

@Newa113

8 ай бұрын

What if pre-painted minis from GW were a thing?

@Stierlitz

8 ай бұрын

​@@Newa113 Now that would be a soulkiller, wouldn't it? Still, you'd have to deal with the steep learning curve and the incovenience of travelling, especially if you didn't live in a large enough town with an established community and clubs.

The lore, painting and narrative aspects of the game have always been the ones that drew me in. I consider myself a very serious painter and I am motivated to tell my part of the 40k story. Competing with other people, stats, math-hammer; all of these things are super boring to me. It's like being into sports, which I also consider incredibly boring. But you have to be aware of these things if you're going to be in this hobby. Because the next person you play might ruin your day with their overpowered combos if you're not. I've seen a lot of regular guys at the gaming store showing up absolutely loaded for bear, even for casual games. The Competitive approach has become mainstream.

▶11:46▶12:31 "Those Who _Preach The _*_Loudest,_*_ Often Have The _*_Most_*_ to _*_Hide"_* When the VANGUARD-TACTICS Super-Champ filmed & showed ▶14:09 the close-up of the face of the chap he was playing for whom he asserted was not playing by the rules (essentially DOXXING him to the world): the VT Super-Champ basically outed *_Himself_* as being not only an Elitist, but also Vindictive & Petty, which is apparently anathema to the Tenets of His supposed "S-Tier Gaming School" as it were.

I enjoy my group, most bring down two or more lists for game night, making sure to ask their opponents if they wanna play casual or a competitive list. Seems to head off most problems.

GW gets most of the blame for Meta chasing because they are the ones constantly churning the meta.

I like the idea of it going that way. There are many alternatives you can play for fun, DEADZONE FIREFIGHT, OPR GRIMDARK FUTURE, XENOS RAMPANT. I like the 5th Edition of 40K. It's a complete game. I have many expansions and CODEXES, several armies, you can find books cheap. The you go I go system is so brutal. The list building is such a big part of it all. The manipulation by the company to buy multiples of the latest hot new unit to be competitive is an issue. The newest Edition seems to be trying to tighten up the rules a little to facilitate this growing Tournament culture, after a few years where there really weren't any company sponsored tournaments. It should all be good fun. How competitive can it really be? You can't take it that seriously. I'd like to see it happen. I wish I had the time to fully dedicate to just one game. But there are so many other games, and things to do in life.

@ninneplug

Жыл бұрын

I liked 5th edition too, but arguably it's when this kind of attitude really started to ramp up. But since that was an edition where Marines and Guard were on top basically the entire time, people largely weren't bothered by the ultra-competitive or "WAAC" style players because at least they were playing Imperial factions. That changed in 6th and 7th when Tau and Eldar took those top spots and then those players started getting hit with all kinds of abuse, basically just short of death threats, and it's when I personally quit the game because I couldn't handle the extreme negativity anymore. And no, I didn't play triple riptide or use Eldar allies, I didn't even like the riptide model and hated it when it came out. The problem, though, is that ultra-competitive players have thicker skin, and see the whining and crying about OP armies as scrub behavior, and dismiss it. You can't shame them for being Tau players because to them it was only logical to play whatever the best, most competitive army was at the time. No one played Tau in 5th because they were a middling 4th edition army and never got a new codex for 5th, they were bad, forgotten...except guys like me who genuinely loved the army. But I got run off by the toxic AF "community" while the tryhards stuck around because they don't give a crap about any of that, they have no real love or attachment to any army except the one that gives them the easiest wins in the moment. Their Tau will go up on eBay the minute they become trash again and used to fund whatever the next flavor of the month army is. Fast forward to today and now it's apparently THEIR game, and people like me who played a faction because we liked it are gone because the community straight up told us we weren't wanted and we were ruining their fun. I was ultimately blamed for balance issues or bad rules writing, which is GWs fault for hiring people who don't know what they're doing and phone this shit in over a weekend, and just crapped out whatever for a book because it didn't matter if it was balanced or not. Which is another reason I think that tryhard mindset took over, because I think the idea back then was that if GW was more focused on the competitive experience it would ultimately lead to more balanced armies and fun gameplay for the rest of us. But GW is incompetent and/or still don't care about how balanced their game is because there are, like always, still clear winners and losers for every edition and if the studio isn't "feeling it" for your army at the time, you get trash rules, and all the good stuff goes to whatever they're having the most fun with. And of course Marines, because they can't let the poster boys be bad, since that would probably actually bankrupt them. lol...

This is why everyone should play and read the lore of battletech, or at least try it. The game IS the lore. They're inseparable as long as you dont allow custom builds. You will be put into the exact situations main characters from the novels face. And its not just mechs. There are infantry, VTOLs, tanks, aerospace and dropships. Its not just a wargame, its a war simulator. Armor facings and strategic play have been a core part of the gameplay since its inception

Meta focused tourney players are why the games have been streanlined so aggressively. People relaxing in the garage dont mind a game having some depth and taking a couple hours. Short game preference would just mean kill team, or just a board game. This is a War Game. It shoulf have some foreward thinking. Hard to do that if alot of games are over turn 2

16:26 I was worried when you mentioned Dark Souls as too many people use original DS fans as an example of toxic gamers. As you said, it was the opposite. We wanted as many people as possible to experience and fall in love with DS.... although I've never uttered it myself, 'git gud' was a playful pat on the back... "keep trying, you'll get there."

Your videos always just give me alot to think about and this is no exception haha. I think that like with e-sports teams i don’t really care about them and kinda laugh at them just because the idea of them (especially the wargame ones since it’s a lot more niche than esports). I’m only 27 and got into the hobby in Spring 2020. I got into the hobby because the game looked really fun and the lord interested me. I want things to be balanced especially in the competitive scene but I want to see more of a focus on lore. my favorite hobby channels talk about lore, then comes battle reports (especially narrative ones) then comes modeling stuff even though those are probably the most useful for me).

as a whole i believe that the tournament and competitive scene IS a core part of the 40k experience.. and in the end it is simply an extension of the the competition between you and the other people across the board, trying to "win". but that does not mean it is a part of the hobby that should be coddled and left un checked. competitive 40k has gone a long way to ruin every edition of 40k since 4th ed.

Kind of a Hobby Nightmare in itself: Back in 3rd/4th edition, this exact scene played out in our local and area of 40k play. It was so bad that none of the fantasy players could ever get a game because everyone wanted to play 40k. The crux was that, players were enticed to tournaments with big prize rewards for finishing in the top. A gift certificate for placing or earning a reward at the tournament was usual, and for 1st place, usually a forgeworld kit or something equally expencive. This fueled a win at all cost mentality for a lot of players and "casual" games when at the local friendly game store turned into listbuilding and testing sessions. I was part of that scene for about 2 or 3 years I think looking back. It did become very playing for blood mentality, and I was guilty of this to a certain extent as well. The biggest shame of it all was that ultimately, it destroyed the community. There are no longer monthly or bimonthly tournaments. All those players started quiting and selling off their prized armies for other interests and none of those interested where in any way directed towards GW products. This was back in the early 2000's. I moved away late 2005 to live overseas. When I did manage to come home, it was worse than ever, even in the local hobby shops, including the one tournament I got talked into playing for 8th edition. It wasn't fun, in fact, I did one of your sins at the last tournament and just gave up the 4th round because I couldn't be bothered to even play. I got nothing out of it. These days, that area, which had an amazing community of 40k is a wasteland. A literal deadzone and you will be lucky to find a pickup game at any single local shop on any given Sunday as where before It was difficult just finding an open table to be able to play. Going forward, I doubt I will ever show up for another 40k game in that area again. If a game isn't fun, it isn't a game anymore and that is definitely not fun.

I agree with everything you said in this video. The points you make are fair and more importantly, completely true! The focus on the tournament scene from the general gaming community is incredibly unhealthy and GWs focus on that above all else is really damaging to it. They always said they were a Miniatures company first, but over recent years they really seem to have forgotten that. They still produce some great stuff no doubt, but the fact that the tournament scene really is defining how we play 40k and how GW are updating/balancing it based on feedback from tournament players is really hurting the enjoyment of the majority of players/hobbyists out there. Yes the majority! Because most people will NEVER play in a big tournament.

I actively avoid tournament play because of toxicity. I remember seeing a post on an Adeptus Titanicus page asking for the strongest meta list. 99% of the replies were "leave. We don't do that here, we play for fun" 😂

I am an avid Bloodbowl coach, it is the only miniature game i still play. We play leagues where your team develops over time, skilling up in games and sometimes losing some along the way, and this scratches an itch for the narrative side of gaming as you get attached to your players. Then there are tournaments that scratch that competitive itch, but we tend to hand out a bunch of different trophies that everyone can try to go home with something. We also have tournaments that have odd rules to promote fun and big events where people are looking to be champions. It's that mix of wackiness and seriousness which keeps me coming back. One big aspect is because it is a sports game, tournaments actually make sense. The rules are mostly fairly tight, so their isn't much arguing, and we have a worldwide player organization that tracks players' tournament results called the NAF, which was initially kicked of by Jervis Johnson. But it is not affiliated with GW. I have been to tournaments and played brilliant players who have won national tournaments, and they don't behave in the manor of these "40k pros" although they have beaten me. I never felt that I wasn't at least participating in the game. So if 40k is to get a player tracking thing than check out what we have done with Bloodbowl l, because I think we have mostly got it right.

I like these rant videos. Give me something to mull over while I do stuff.

I still haven't played my first game of 40K yet, my friend and I are both a bit dubious about playing with our unpainted models. I'm really hoping that our local scene is fairly relaxed, I want to use fluffy lists that are less focused on viability and more focused on fun! Have to hope that I won't be getting curb stomped for that, themed lists are way more interesting to me compared to meta lists.

This is going to be a lengthy comment, so apologies in advance. Power creep and the community's primary focus on the competitive meta more than anything else is why I personally gave up on following the Yu-Gi-Oh card game, which I'd been following ever since it was first released 25 years ago, so I guess that shoves me into the category of Yugi-boomer. My problems were that the only things people looked to when I was more thoroughly invested in playing than merely collecting was, and always would be, what deck builds are topping at tournaments, what cards are going to dominate the game until it gets put on the ban list, and the discussion about anything that wasn't about any of that was practically nonexistent; eventually it just grew to the point where I couldn't keep up and I just put a stop on things, since the game is at the point where one player's first turn can take ten minutes to perform and they can flood the field with nigh invincible boss monsters if their opponent can't counter anything they try to do (one deck can even close off the field zones that their opponent needs to play the game while getting rid of their deck at the same time, and it hasn't been perma-banned) that's the point the game is at right now, and players will say that the state of the game is "healthy" - healthy like someone that gets labelled "Plus-sized," if you ask me - the tournament scene may be booming, but if you go anywhere near a competition in that card game and you're not playing a deck that says to your opponent "Your turn? Nah mate, I get all the turns" or "You want to play the game? That's cute," you're not going to be having any fun and casual players like myself are pretty much relegated to trying to find the holy grail of players that just want to muck around with decks that are enjoyable and actually let you play longer than five turns. That's what hits close to home about why competitive scenes in any game just put me off, and why I find more fun in storytelling than actual sport, and why I really enjoy professional wrestling - sure, it's scripted and every match is determined before the wrestlers walk through the curtain, but their love of the business and commitment to putting on a show is what gets fans like myself invested more than football or rugby do, and especially more than e-sports or competitive Warhammer. At this point, if GW are going to shift focus from narrative games to the competitive scene, I expect them to pull shenanigans like they did when they introduced the Reaper Chaincannon for CSM Havocs (brag about how powerful it is in the Community blog post, then put *just one* in the actual box, thank god for the Legionaries kill team including one) or for a nightmare scenario, they just do away with customisation entirely and only have one unit possibility per box pre-built and pre-painted so that tournament players don't have to waste time on the actual hobby side of the hobby and can just go straight from the stores to tournaments. Sure, that's a stretch, but when one section of a particular fan base grows to outsize the others, more attention gets put on that area than the rest, and so the smaller communities get eclipsed more and more - hopefully GW remember that the hobby side of Warhammer is just as prosperous as the competitive scene is and they manage to strike the perfect balance between the two, but I really don't want it to end up where hobbyists and lore lovers get barely any attention and everything GW focuses on is solely about tournaments and the competitive scene - or maybe I'm just overreacting, that's always possible.

I think that the experience you have is dependent on the group of gamers you are in. Mine is casual/narrative but we do have a couple of meta-chasers in the circle. I generally try to steer clear as I'm more into the social/fun aspect of the hobby. IF my group started to lean more heavy into the competitive aspect of the hobby I would likely leave. Which sucks because it's hard to find people to game with. I've made some very good friends that I may end up calling "brothers" one day. But right now it's a solid group. Competitive gaming does have it's place in the hobby. Just be honest with your opponent on what kind of gamer you are. I work very hard during the week and do not want my hobbies to go into stressful territory. Also, don't put so much of your heart into this one hobby that it actually messes with your karma. I got other hobbies: Guns, Motorcycles, Making Art etc. Smoke some weed, drink a beer, or whatever you do and CHILL THE 'F' OUT!

eSports sucks, ruins every game that tries to pander to it and as an industry has been a complete disaster with only a handful of titles that haven't been massive flops.

Hey North, on the Vanguard tactics bit, I may be wrong because it has been a while since I seen the video and I had it on in the background but didn't the Vanguard Tactic guy say he regretted how he acted?

Hit the nail on the head when you mentioned video games. I've been playing BattleBit recently and the amount of people I see abusing weapons or tactics they know to be broken just to make themselves feel good disgusts me. It would be so easy for me to join in and stomp people if I used normal or even OP weapons but currently im running the UMP which is subpar. Why? Because it looks neat which makes me happy. Competition is perfectly acceptable in games centered around it, I myself plan on sweating my ass off when The Finals comes out soon, but bringing the "win at the cost of fun" attitude to normal games is just lame.

Anyone got a link to the vanguard tactics video North keeps mentioning? Really interested to watch it

I definitely feel the competitive side of things bleeding into casual play. I occasionally play at a local game shop that just started introducing warhammer about a 2 and a half years ago when i first got into the hobby. The guy who runs the events prefers casual play much more than heavy competitive play. So when he runs tournament like structure for events, (typically on sundays for 6 weeks and if anyone missed their match up you would have to make up a game with your opponent, or the guy running it if your opponent cant for whatever reason so you dont get screwed, sometime between the next game or take a loss), he's very lenient on certain things like being able to change lists between games so long as you stick to the same faction (sisters, guard, tau, etc), and trusting everyone to set up their own missions and tables. As long as we played a game and submitted scores, he would tally up everyone's totals at the end. We recently had someone essentially try to get all uppity about a lot of it in the last event he ran. Saying stuff like "We need to have pre determined missions and everyone needs to submit an army list. Nobody should be allowed to change their units and those lists should be available for everyone to see so we know what we're fighting and can plan. Blah blah blah." The poor guy that runs it is also a bit timid so he didn't push back too hard and made some changes mid tournament. Like i get the structure of it, but its a casual tournament. Sure it's not perfect, but the warhammer scene there is young and needs to bloom a bit.

I started the hobby recently, after playing League of Legends competitively and ruining the entire game for me. I was wanting to play a game, or enjoy a hobby where it’s about having fun. I found out about Warhammer 40k when I was 18, but never really got into fully until about 3 years, and been trying to play it fully now. I’ve just been invested in the lore and characters before I started actually playing, which is just games of combat patrol, because I suck at list building. I like watching battle reports with big characters I know and like, especially Helbrecht, when it comes to Black Templars. I know for a fact, from person experience of competitive gaming, that if more people are coming into the hobby like this, it will destroy it. It will ruin the fun, and it will cause more people to leave than to stay. I don’t want to see the great fantasy of this game destroyed, and wish I played during the times where it was about narrative battles and campaigns. No, it isn’t right to gatekeep and push back the kind people who play competitively, because enjoyment of the hobby is subjective, but mass competitive war gaming will cause a trickle down effect, and make the game more toxic overall, and will cause the downfall as seen before in many cases of competitive video games.

As a long-time Magic the Gathering player, I absolutely feel you here. Magic's a game I've always been in for the game itself, and even as a teen got quickly tired of the discourse over "good" and "bad" cards or expansions. While I've gotten more competitive with Magic and more open to the idea of meta decks, I don't see myself ever leaning into the meta in 40k. To me it's simply boring if every faction has the same army list. Like you seem to, I'll keep buying the models I think are cool and play narrative games to the best of my ability. In 9th I rejected the meta Adepta Sororitas subfaction, Order of the Bloody Rose, for the Order of the Ebon Chalice. If I'm collecting an army, I want to make it *my* army.

@Hellvine

Жыл бұрын

8v8 solves the meta issues

You're on-point. Competitive 40k is repellent, to say nothing of professional 40k. Also, "soccer" originates in Britain (as an abbreviation of Association football), not the US. ; )

i am a hobbyist first and a player second. competitive 40k absolutely is ruining casual base. in a new addition where lethality has supposedly been toned down greatly every pick up game that I've been playing outside of my own friend group that plays on Sundays has been nothing but over the top army lists that are built to wipe you off the table by at least turn three. 40,000 has not been fun anymore unless you're winning the game outright.

I think you’re onto something. I’ve always hated the tournament scene and with its prevalence I’d been getting sucked into temptation, especially as I’ve been collecting Genestealer cults since 8th and ram them a bit in 9th. I can’t bring myself to play them though because I’d feel bad, but it’s tempting. I’m regarding as a guy who smiled the whole game and just wants to have fun with edgy legos, but I’ve been taking a step back and continuing with my guardsmen and chaos, getting deeper into orks too, which just brings me back to a sort of personal golden age of the hobby for me. I’m only 29, but I’ve always enjoyed lore first.

90% of the players I meet are competitive players. I would consider myself as somewhat competitive, that's the mindset I play on the tabletop. I just don't buy models with a competitive mindset so It's really hard to compete with most of them. I would love narrative games that are completely asymmetric. No one is willing to play those however.

The area I'm in, there is too many competitive players. They suck the air out of a room and take this too serious and parrot whatever they last heard from a competitive KZreadr. I had to stop playing. I want to hang out, not do high level thinking. I want to roll some dice, not pour over lists and units looking for the 'optimal build'. I get tired of people telling me what I should be playing and what units I should use. These people act like something happens when you win. We are playing with plastic army men, we are adults. Nothing happens when you win.

If that's the way it's going and if it does damage the hobby more and more can we not have a separation of 40k into standard 40k and 40k competitive? If GW changes so much that my hobby no longer fits it I can see myself and many others who loved the lore, freedom of expression in conversions and the narrative game easily buying into the right new gaming system by a company who focuses on those things. A company doing the things GW used to do (encouraging hobby crafting and in store fun and games) would IMO steal away half of 40k's players, and rightly so. We just need a company who ticks all the boxes. Im kinda crossing my fingers and praying such a company will arise to force GW to care (too late) for the people who value the older description of the hobby to the newer direction/flavour

Interesting content as always, thanks mate. I played 40k since the Rouge Trader book came out. Tournament should be the meta driven niche of the hobby not the standard. But doesn't it work on GWs favour to promote it, then keep shifting the meta, and selling more minis?? The fun side of the game is the narrative and the character of the factions. If GM don't promote the fun and push tournament play as the standard things will get dull for many players. These days I play Killteam with my son, it is great fun but we drew a line under keeping up with new DLC rules etc. We evolved it into a CBQ game before GW 🙂 I also appreciate the time you take to help out folk in general. I have been through most of the shit situations a bloke can face and just knowing you are not in isolation is really important. Well done.

Good episode, I agree with most of what you said. Thx for the video. Warhammer should always more be about the spirit of the game, even in competitive gaming.

To add to your point on "tough love in a competitive sense" I agree, I started this hobby in 2017 and I SUCKED. Legit only had one win in 2018, and that was because the store was closing (it was the triumvirate of the imperium campaign) Would often get tabled by turn 3 sometimes turn 2 a few times turn 1 by my friend who builds fluffy dark eldar lists. But everytime I learned, I stayed at my position and played through and now in 2023 in 10th edition I've won 4 or 5 games so far and that same fluffy D.Eldar friend commented once (quite happily) quote "wooow! You're actually making me think! You're getting good!" I still lose plenty of games but instead of the losses being by say 60 points or getting tabled it's by 5-20 points by turn 5 (Edit: if you would like to include this in a hobby nightmare video or something you're more than welcome tomate!)

North pointing at Dark Souls players while Warmahordes exists in the same setting is ironic.

totally agree, had the football life and loved it. Move to the other side of the world and the dream was lost before finishing high school, there was no challenge at all. Dove in to music an all related tropes, had fun but it was never the same. I had loved Warhammer fantasy and 40K since the late 80's, from the age of 9. I threw myself in to some life that was "interesting" at the time, throwing myself at the most dangerous places I could in my career. When I got back home, I was walking past a random shop that had 40K miniatures. Walked in and was instantly hooked with the complete escapism of it all. I have been through the potential sports career, I have been down another path and suffered the unexplained PTSD consequences. However, even at 42 I just cant help but smile and dive in to my imagination when I see a well sculpted miniature. Just don't forget to make connections with people, the miniatures make you smile but the people you hobby with should make you laugh and cry in the best ways.

To me, the competitive scene has absolutely fucked the gaming aspect of my 40k hobby. Fucked it. While they were not without their issues, 6th & 7th edition were peak 40k for my group, and we're all just about over 40 and so consider ourselves to be fairly veteran having played GW stuff for well over 20 years. You're spot-on, 40k was never meant to be a competitive game and IMO GW have completely dumbed it down progressively from 8th onwards to cater more and more for players who just want to get games done faster by having less mechanics to consider when playing. We are the opposite; old-skool players, we prefer a ruleset to reflect fairly accurately what's happening on the battlefield and thus to have more depth. Should a tank be more vulnerable from the rear? Yes. Should my unit be able to jump from the roof of a building to get down faster while risking damage via an impact test? Yes. Should vehicles have a damage table? Yes. Should flying monsters risk grounding when hit by attacks? Yes...well, maybe. Should a unit with a middling melee skill have more trouble hitting an elite melee unit than a worse one? Yes. Should firing a heavy weapon stop the firing infantry unit from charging into melee? Yes. Should a unit break and flee across the board and then try to regroup? Yes. What GW have done is remove the downsides to units so the unit stands on it's own merit rather than suffering due to player error; ie stuff like your Predator facing the wrong way and getting hammered from behind like it's post-club hookup time, or a mediocre unit getting intercepted by an elite melee character/unit - the penalty of weaker rear armour is gone, the penalty for trying to hit a superior opponent is gone. The nuance or finesse of knowing how to manage each unit is gone, to the point of taking built-in abilities away from units and replacing them with bullshit strats needing CPs to work, don't even get me started on that Gotcha nonsense. 10th has absolutely compounded this by being what is IMO the laziest edition yet where wargear no longer has any cost and models are bought in clumps, presumably because having individual prices for models is too much to worry about. AND THE FOC, what the fucking actual?! Each new edition is becoming more unbearable. No thank you. We stopped playing shortly after 9th came out with very little intention of playing 10th at all. Do I hate competitive players for this pandering? Not really, because they have the right to play the game how they want to. Do I hate GW for this slide into simpletown? I'd like to, but the reality is that they exist to make a profit so they want to ensnare as many players as possible and lowing the complexity to get newer/younger/GOTTAWIN players casts a larger net. Am I happy that my 8 year old can now probably play 40k without too much trouble? Eh...sort of, because I love to share my hobby with her but I have Space Hulk for that (she usually beats me as 'Stealers and I'm OK with that). What I do hate is us older players being left out in the cold because core GW have already gotten 20+ years of money out of us collecting tens of thousands of points of armies and editions as loyal customers and now target those (or their parents at least) who still have all the stuff to get. Business is business, but that doesn't mean that I have to like playing a game that I now don't like because the vision behind the design has fundamentally changed. Fortunately Specialist Games have kept us in the hobby; Blood Bowl & Necromunda are long-term favs of my group but not myself so much, the return of Titanicus gave us what is, in my opinion, one of the best games that GW have ever released (but ofc that was too good to continue and James Hewitt, the lead designer, quit GW after it hit the shelves) & the new edition of 30k has us loving the improved 7E ruleset and getting our pseudo-40k on. I'm still making Tyranid rules for that. Would it be so hard for GW to do a 40k based on the Heresy ruleset? It'd save me a million hours of porting 6th/7th edition codexes over to Heresy's 7.5E (or whatever you want to call it), the USRs are all there, the basic unit design is the same, plus we'd get official rules for brand new units, which is what we don't get if we decided to just play an older edition of 40k. Fortunately Legiones Imperialis looks like another absolute win from Spec Games; basing a new Epic on what looks like a cross between AT and 2nd edition Space Marine, the Epic of my teens? Yes fucking please, I'm more excited for this than I was for 10th, I'm just hoping that I don't feel as let down after clapping eyes on it proper. It's looking promising, even if playing it isn't getting our 40k models off the dusty shelves. Eh, apologies but I do like a good rant, especially when it's something that I've been passionate about since 1990.

The lore is what got me into the setting. Not even the gameing as i didnt get into that until 2019, amd i only hav ebeen putting models together. Have not played yet

The Warhammer community has always been a toxic cesspool in my experience. It's not new, and as far I'm concerned this is exactly what everyone wanted. Anyway, personally I never cared much for competitive play and never had any desire to play any game in a tournament setting. With 40k though I was always put off by the disgusting imbalances of it, and it's upsetting to invest so much of yourself into the game or a particular faction, then see people angrily state they would "never play against you" because they hated your faction, without knowing anything about you personally. They make assumptions or just put a blanket ban on certain armies in their space to be on the "safe side," basically. So yeah, I would say GW needed to focus on the competitive aspect under the assumption that doing so would lead to a better balanced game overall, and less of that kind of crap where people just won't play the game, or call you a bad person or a bully or a sociopath because you're playing Tau and "that's not fun FOR ME. How could you do this TO ME?" But turns out GW is still GW and the game is still as broken as ever, despite them pretending to care about balance to appease the competitive players, because they either just don't know what they're doing in that damn studio at all, or its a corporate edict to make the game playable ENOUGH but still sneaking bullshit in to sell models. So I give up, lol.

im stuck between three gamestores, The one I go to is perfect for beginners (at least mostly at this point) while I know for sure the other closest one is a haven for power gamers and people who play mostly to crush others beneath meta lists. The other gamestore players literally made jerseys to rep their store and team for when they go out to tournaments and other game stores and it honestly feels gross to me.

I just played my first 2k point game yesterday! I'll push back against the super competitive side of things as I learn the rules. I think the better narrative rules (from GW) we have the more people would play that style.

I feel, that at my local hobby shop we are a mostly casual group, however they are a few members, who live on reddit looking for the latest broken thing... bet you can't guess that the faction played is eldar.

Yes they are when they aren’t keeping this type of play confined to other competitive players

40k needs to go back to being a beer and pretzels game, after dealing with a few waac players and tournaments at university, the worst thing to ever say to me if you want a game is to admit that you are a competitive player!. 😅

What annoys me about this new edition is that unlike in 9th, where tournament play had its own rules, they have decided to have the same army building rules for both types of play. And guess which system it was based on? Yep, if you guessed the Grand Tournament format, you'd be correct.

I don't think tournament players are the problem, rather it's GW's focus on appealing to them over the casual / hobby sides. How many fun and flavourful units and lists have we lost because they were "too overpowered" or "hard to balance"

this is one of the reasons i quite gws stuff, and love warlord games now.

Can't personally speak for competitive tabletop but I'm with you on gaming. I have no interest in PVP these days but love me some co op... shame, as true co op experiences in gaming (not added as an after thought) are a dying breed (popularity wise... PC still has some interesting stuff). Love Vermintide... never cared for those MVP tables at the end of a run. In a co op game where teamwork is essential... why do I care who killed the most!? Just hoping Payday 3 is free of this need to compete with your own teammates.

10th edition is finally the smooth gameplay experience I've always wanted. Tons of smaller infantry units are viable, and you're much less likely in this edition to be table wiped by Turn 2. If tournament players had some hand in making GW think about this game balance and ease of play, then I thank them. But otherwise, I hate the tournament scene, it's not my cup of tea, and tourney players are insufferable to be around. I absolutely agree with you that competitive play was never in the spirit (or design) of the game, and GW has been desperately trying to court tournament players since they exploded onto the scene in 6th and 7th edition. They're just the worst. There's a reason the first (and longest standing) official GW competition, Golden Demon, was a painting contest, not a gaming tournament.

I think there always has been a competitive side of video gaming, even the old arcade games had score boards

Guess I’m a weird middle ground. Newer player but love the lore and paint my armies all lore accurate, yet never cared to even attempt a narrative game. Also since day 1 been more into bringing a competitive list and trying to win

@rantymcrant-pants9536

Жыл бұрын

You are weird if you commander doesn't even have a name! :P

The hobby is what you make it.

@Hcaz1113

Жыл бұрын

What if a bunch of ass holes at your local game joint go out of their way to ruin your games because "you don't play your army the right way"

@JustinBrown-gh9vv

Жыл бұрын

I would agree if it was a single player game. Unfortunately it requires a community to play. And that community varies depending on who is in it.

Battle bros: love the thumbnail ! ! !

That's why you need more Orks in your life. They make everything more fun... It's not about winning,it's about enjoying the experience of a proper WAAGGH!!!

It’s not the players themselves, it’s that GW has never once made a game that is even remotely suited for competitive play. It’s deeply amusing that a competitive scene has grown up around them.

i can c me going full h/h ,having the lord of VT in white dwarf this issue shows that gw may like the idea of the team tops clubs but itll b to the detriment of the hobby when its about winning not embracing and telling the lore on tabletops and just having some fun with a like minded player

I don't know if it would be possible depending on how you record gameplay and voice over or do it all live but I would recommend battlefleet gothic 2 if you ever get sick of your current games. Its fucking sick as fuck, no other game portrays the scale of 40k like it

@northernexile

Жыл бұрын

Bought it. Just for you. Expect it soon.

@y2kFUNtime

Жыл бұрын

@@northernexile nice, I'd recommend the skalgrim mod too

I do really hate what competitive drive has done to the game. GW know that competitive meta drives sales and they use it. Each new edition getting brought about faster and faster, each change to the game made to get the game done ASAP (a psychic phase is apparenlty too much for the mobile gamers to bear) The narrative feels less like a narrative and more just a sales drive (yes the two were always intertwined but not to this level) Fewer options for units because that’s too hard to balance for GW. But, this isn’t a fault of the players; this is the fault of GW appealing to them.

I played rugby at a good standard and have been part of very good teams but I've also played at very low amateur level as a player/coach. The difference is massive, 40k has the problem of both these "mindsets" being crammed into the same space, it just doesn't work.

@northernexile

Жыл бұрын

Getting sick of people being able to accentuate a point I made in 10 lines, better, in a single line comment xD Well done.

@rantymcrant-pants9536

Жыл бұрын

@@northernexile It is fairly easy to stack the firewood neatly once a lot of the chopping is already done. I'm sure people wouldn't be able to summerise the thought as well if you hadn't already articulated it in a way almost anyone can understand.

Is it really "doxing" a guy when you're exposing a competitor/cheater who freely chooses to repeatedly attend and misbehave over and over again at big public events? Not all social pressure is oppressive and sometimes bad actors need to be made an example of in a community to foster better norms and behaviour. I'll add that I'm not 100% firm on that position because my knowledge of the specifics of this incident is limited, but I think it's important to raise this question before judging Stephen (Vanguard Tactics) too harshly.

@scoticvsgossage9378

9 ай бұрын

Yeah, I agree with you. The former owner of a local game store was a known cheat. Banned from the tournament scene for it. He was recorded and exposed. Wouldn’t have been found out otherwise. So I think it’s a bit harsh to judge a KZreadr whose job is live gaming and battle reports. He exposed a cheater, the guy consented to being recorded.

Coming in late to this….I don’t think Vanguard tactics will be around that long because the guy who runs it has major unresolved anger issues…sooner or later he is going to swing on someone at a tournament…and that will be the end of his jerseys wearing ass

I just cant see any kind of audience finding this entertaining enough to become a self-sustaining sport. Even now all the pro gaming stuff has been mainly investing and hasn't made a profit yet. Compare that to the 5-6 billion tv deal the prem league makes.

Old man shouts at cloud 😂 no I agree, there is a place for both but I am concerned how as soon as an army gets powerfull suddenly EVERYONE jumps on that band waggon. A tournament where everyone is playing GSC, eldar and knights.... almost identical OP lists... in a sea of L shapped ruins is unfun. Imagine two days of the same mission on the same maps against the same army's 5 or 6 times in a row. It's killing the tournament scene because its anti fun

The direction the hobby is headed due to a misguided focus on the wrong aspects too heavily I think is damaging. The greedy IP focus will also as time goes on; rub many people the wrong way too. Star wars merch used to be pretty cool to own. Now its so meh its cliche. If GW start acting like Disney and other major corporates (which I'd argue they already are a shining bad example of) I forsee a similar false inflation followed by a catastrophic collapse and loss of interest. Let's hope they're really not that stupid. All that said 10th has some promising aspects and it does seem GW have listened again. Not fully. But they clearly have tried to not make all the same mistakes again.

How is 40K a competitive game when Games Workshop cant even decide whats in a space marine army a month after the latest edition comes out? I have been wondering where this comes from, perhaps its because 40K these days seems more like a table top recreation of a computer game style of gameplay with special "I WIN" buttons to push at the right time? Going for it to win a tournament is one thing and a great thing to aim for, but the "I am the big I am for playing toy soldiers" attitude should just be mocked for the idiocy it is, leave the ego at home, just pack the models to play...

@johnwhite9461

Жыл бұрын

Thinking back to when I used to run, and win, tournaments, 40K was very different back then. There were missions, there were objectives, but nothing more challenging than holding table quarters and the best way to do that was still exterminatethe other guy by turn 3 and win anyway. The players who really really wanted to win played eldar with lots of star cannons and that almost saw eldar top table, I used to do it with Gaurd just to be different, star canons meet multilaser lol I know who won the points efficiency on that one and it wasnt the space knife ears...but on the whole, the competitive scene was just lots of space marines slaughtering each other and the eldar blasting whatever super soliders crawled to the top of the heap... you could only get a game against anything other than marines if you rose up enough to be in the top 20% by game 5... evaluating modern 40K, the one thing coming out strongest is wiping out the other guy just doesnt seem to happen anymore, not in any of the games ive been checking out anyway, and thats what the changes in the game have brought about over last 20 years. I find it a bit abstract myself, why would a real unit dive over to defend a bunch of pipes rather than engage enemy right in front of them? No, when i think 40K I think 3rd/4th edition, and maybe thats a possible answer if the modern scene becomes toxic, return to the fun of earlier times, thinking of starting a channel and doing some 3rd edition battle reports

I moved away from 40k to necromunda as its much more relaxed for myself as a dad gamer

100% having a "Get them in the Ocean" tee-shirt made. And yes aluminum is enunciated ahl-lu-mi-num.

@knabseraph

Жыл бұрын

aluminium?

40K is sweaty as hell around my area. AoS is a great time though. Not a bead to be seen.

Major kill and weshammer say otherwise 8:53

@joriankell1983

Жыл бұрын

Major kill makes things up

I think the price of the models is killing the hobby. I want to play 40k so bad since 3d ed but can’t justify the ever increasing price.

Dude darksouls has nothing to do with it. Competitiveness has more to do with mtg i say this as a warmachine player. This also always existed, see old baattletech back in the 90s. Waac clanners spamming warhawk-c stars Darksouls elitism is and always has been defensive because everyone wants to make our games more accessible by removing what makes it interesting. Randomly attacking a fandom isnt reasonable.

@rf-cattleprod6207

Жыл бұрын

Warmachine players are the worst. I didn't know a group could be so toxic.

you are absolutely right

12:51 Vanguard Tactics is run by Stephen Box.

@northernexile

Жыл бұрын

Seems like a decent bloke and channel, that one video just rubbed me the wrong way.

YES!

From a guy who has played from the very first editions of whfb and 40k RT I hate the fact how un fun the game play has become...Its all about smashing your opponents army and like you say compensating for something. You hit tye nail on the head when you say this game was never meant to be that competitive...I just paint armies around old lore and create campaigns to tell a story. The forces on the table are what you expect...Not the meta...

I like to hear this different opinion. I don't agree with it, but I can see where you get it from.

GW: Release new OP kit Power Gamers: Purchase said kit GW: Releases rules ammendium/eratta to nerf the OP kits rules Power Gamers: Surprise pikachu face And thus, the perpetual cycle of meta chasing, desperate, dweebs who want to win at any cost continues. All the while GW profits off of their insatiable need for validation in the niche, scifi-wargaming competitive scene. It would seem as though the rest of us are just dragged alongside for the ride. Only ever to be seen as an afterthought in the grand scheme of making as much money from selling overpriced plastic.

"We now want to compare eachother" as if ealy on games didn't have scorecards or arcades didn't have leaderboards. Also the claim "Attitude trickles down" has nothing to back it up "The narrative moments we all want to see", well we don't ALL want to. Obviously as the example shows. The mistake, in my opinion, that you are making here is trying to pin it on one type of attitude towards the game where actually the problem lies in the mismatch of those attitudes. The tourney player will not enjoy to stomp a timmy player into the dirt.

Real football is played with an egg that you carry in your hand, everybody knows this.

Ultramarine bros !

As a Ork player, comp scene is extreme boring tbh

Lol. It’s always the “casual” crowd with the most toxic takes on everything, as well as the group of people who are most guilty of being the negative people to play against. The same group of people who are afraid of the accountability that comes with the competitive scene influencing the bottom ends of the hobby. I’m not an overly competitive player, but the current way that GW is preferring to listen to the more competitive side, brings a lot more balance to the game. Making play experiences a lot more enjoyable. Long gone are the days of a broken book being released and not touched for years because of the toxic mindset of this is a narrative game so it doesn’t matter if it’s unbalanced and broken

Yes they have, and it's what turned me off 40k (apart from GW's behaviour).

Without even listening yes

Northern, I usually love your videos, and will continue to watch them. However I really have never disagreed with you more then I did on this video. I feel as if your used broad stokes to describe the competitive scene in 40K, strokes that are generally inaccurate. Yes, there are incidents like the ones you have described. But the overall competitive community are just good people, who love the game, love the lore, love the hobby, and in addition want to play the game at a high level. Most do have a switch in their head to be able to play fun pick up games without a care of the win or loss. And then flip that switch when in a competitive environment. Are there a few bad apples out there, yes of course. But the overall bunch are good 40K loving nerds like us who love this games. I believe you’re over reacting to a few bad actors.

Good video but I have a hard time thinking you’re an old timer if you went to university in 2012!

This 'all games must be tournaments or practice for tournaments' attiiscwhat acares off new pkayersxand what I still argue killed of Warhammer Fantasy.

Yes. But no; GW trying to act like an e-sport is ruining the game.

40k can never truly be competitive as long as the rules are in the hands of the players. Also, it seems like GWs only deterrent to meta slaving is by making the game so imbalanced that it is pointless to even attempt to metachase

I don't see it happening simply because 40K rules suck. The winner is whomever chases the meta and buys the most recent models. Might be good for sales, but sucks for a pro competitive scene

Just wait until people start measuring their "kd"s 😂

dude it's such a bad faith take on the vanguard tactics game. the dude a known cheater who has been disciplined at multiple tournaments and was caught cheating in more games on the day that video was filmed. he amicably conceded and walked away after calling multiple judges over throughout a game, and then just decided to enjoy Warhammer fest instead of sticking with a game that he was not enjoying. surely it's an attitude to be commended to take yourself out of a toxic situation. I agree with your takes on meme culture and shitty attitudes, by it definitely feels like you are going out of your way to be harsher than is reasonable to the Vanguard guys (even taking into account your praise of thier philosophy)

@northernexile

Жыл бұрын

I don't condone doxing people - they appeared in a video showing someone's face, saying their side of the story and no one else's, basically smearing that individual. What that individual's prior reputation is or was does not concern me, the doxing of them instead of putting them on the 'do not play' list and walking away does. Should also be said that Dicebreaker did not blur out the opponent's face, but Vanguard should still have done due diligence and asked to see it before upload and asked for the opponent's face to be blurred. Not doing so meant they either did not review the video, which is incompetence (I've been guilty of that once or twice), or reviewed it and decided doxing a fellow hobbyist was alright. The first is unfortunate and irresponsible, the second means I will treat them with a LOT of scrutiny and mistrust from now on.

@scoller

Жыл бұрын

@@northernexile I didn't really comment on the doxing, so your kinda replying to something I didn't say. I still think my point stands about thier conduct as players. with the doxing, I don't personally take as harder stance as you, I think if a person is blatantly cheating and ruining the game for people then tough luck, sunlight is the best disinfectant. then again I can see the argument that this could result in witch hunty behaviour and that's not cool either so there's two sides to that argument, and either way we don't have to agree on everything. again though, this is the second video you have made this week where you have directly criticized Stephen leaving the game, and thats what my point was addressing. in general I relly think you hit the mark more times than you miss, but I don't like this one, the crisisism just felt a bit disingenuous and almost unnecessary targerty 🤷

Maybe the multiple channels that tell horror stories about their hobby are ruining the hobby? Idk DnD and Wh40k are the only communities that eat their own communities lol. That can’t be good for the game’s health. And it’s not the fault of pro players that all the people who follow this game edition to edition are meta chasers. What I’m saying is I’d blame you wayy before I blame the competitive scene. At least they complain about wanting better rules.

I’m going to play the Devil’s Advocate because this channel is turning into an echo chamber. The Team Competitive Scene is the best thing to ever happen to WarHammer 40K. “A rising tide raises all boats.” I follow the competitive scene online and it seems to attract a certain type person. Let’s call them Brostartes. The Brostartes are competitive to a fault, and they start showing up when something has reached cultural relevance. They like sports. They like competing. They’re usually attractive. They can attract girls. They showed up in skateboarding and then later in video games. The Brostartes are indeed a “danger” to nerd spaces since they will alter the space itself by their very presence. When the Brostartes appear, you can expect that the Sororitas will follow. The Brostartes and the Sororitas like to travel together, but the Sororitas are more inclined to like the artwork and may become proficient artists themselves, aiding their Brostartes in completing their ever-evolving, competitive army. Sororitas may start KZread channels and miniatures discourse channels where they focus more on the narrative and other fun games that the Brostartes tend to avoid. Overall, more people get interested, more boxes get sold, more secondhand miniatures get sold, more hobby related businesses can exist, more artists can exist. At the end of the day, I support the artist and I love the fact that the competitive scene is really driving up costs on the secondary market, where all the artists exist :) P.S. I didn’t even talk about how 8v8 is the future of WarHammer 40K and how it solves the meta issues and allows for crazy fun lists to play. If you want to know more, check out Happy Krumpin Gaming’s channel. TL;DR Competitive WarHammer 40K is Great News for Artists! And 8v8 is The Future!

@Jeff-ne1lh

Жыл бұрын

Dude….that was the most cringey sexist idiotic thing I have read in awhile….and that’s saying something 😬

UK Called it Soccer first. Go for a swim, m8

@northernexile

Жыл бұрын

Almost all of your football teams in America have 'FC' in their name. Football Club. We called the sport 'rugger' and 'asoccer'...not Soccer. That was the American bastardization of a word we'd abandoned almost immediately because it sounded silly. Football worked better, the FA is the Football Association not the Soccer...well I could do this all day. You're wrong get in the sea.

@thequestbro

Жыл бұрын

@@northernexile lol

Having eacaped the miserable world of COD i'd really hate to see that bs infest Warhammer. Not looking good with these knobs in their sports tops and gym memberships