So what batteries do you think have a good shot? Any you’d add to this list? See why hiring doesn’t have to be difficult - when you try ZipRecruiter for free at www.ziprecruiter.com/UNDECIDED. If you liked this video, check out 137 Year Old Battery Tech May Be The Future of Energy Storage kzread.info/dash/bejne/ZKuntbSqXcWrnZM.html

@pacresfrancis1565

Жыл бұрын

Hey Matt, could you possibly make a video about microturbine generators as energy storage? its like a gas turbine but small, the upside is they can use hydrogen as fuel. i recently came across them , but there's barely any talk about them. thanks!

@DarylOster

Жыл бұрын

IMO the nano diamond 'battery' is the most interesting one to watch. Top contenders are the ones that reduce material cost by 2 or 4 orders of magnitude (think silicone, carbon, sulfur, aluminum, sodium, etc - and NOT nickel, cobalt, lithium, etc. ) solid state is promising too...

@DarylOster

Жыл бұрын

Other battery enablers include coating technologies (perhaps Kodak has the most IP in this field), and other roll to roll processing and vacuum deposition techs including printing and miniaturized lithography (such as dominated by Intel...), etc. ...

@alankirby3839

Жыл бұрын

I see you’re really enjoying the puns here today.

@PavolFilek

Жыл бұрын

I see video like this, and 15 years I buy CALB LFP 9000 cycles at 80 % DOD to 80 % SOH. Who can compete ? USA ? CHIle ? INdia ? Germany ? Russia ? Nobody in the world produces sych cheap battery, and cheap mean, that U sell GWh of capacity.

One important thing missing in this video (and many videos from many sources about energy storage systems) is the *EFFICIENCY*. For instance, some of the grid-scale storage systems are only 30-50% efficient, loosing the rest to heat in some part of the process of charging, storing, or discharging. I think this is a metric that we simply can't ignore, as it has fundamental implications for their long term economic viability, payback time, and appropriate use-cases.

@mrpedrodrodriguezsr7628

Жыл бұрын

I totally agree with you on the "efficiency" aspect of energy storage.

@je8277

Жыл бұрын

Efficiency aside, having a use for the waste heat could be a good solution to help reduce power use elsewhere. Having small distribution level battery storage in a city or near a pool and using a cooling loop to heat water for homes and the community. This is a major benefit of small nuclear, with rated power being around 200MW - 300MW but the heat output which can be used in industrial processes being a massive additional boost.

@zachariah380

Жыл бұрын

@@je8277 very true. That I agree should be a part of the efficiency conversation all of the time. I think there are so many missed opportunities for using waste heat - the more conversation the better. I often think of even rooftop solar voltaics as being a huge wasted opportunity for waste heat collection. Even in the most efficient panels,, 60+ percent of the energy is getting lost as heat that could be heating or pre-heating domestic hot water or in-floor heating. Solutions like concentrated solar with heat-pipe transfer to an insulated water collection, or evacuated tube systems with the photovoltaics inside with heat pipes and water heat transfer could make for an absolute ton of additional waste energy recovered and used. Heat pumps could amplify those optimal photovoltaic temperatures to domestic hot water temperatures while still using so much less energy than direct gas or electric heating. Industrially, of course, there are so many more waste heat options at many different temperature ranges.

@xyeB

Жыл бұрын

Well you could just save the heat and pump it in the battery as electricity

@traybern

Жыл бұрын

@@mrpedrodrodriguezsr7628 The SUN provides UN-limited amounts of energy. For the next SIX BILLION YEARS!!!

Aluminum Ion and Aluminum Air batteries are still the two I'm most interested in seeing develop. It feels like the wait for new battery types has been one of the longest in technology.

@3laarafat625

Жыл бұрын

Iam more interested in aluminum ion, lithium sulfur and sulfur ion batteries, lithium sulphur could replace li-ion if they managed to improve charge and discharge rate to be at least on bar with li-ion and sulfur ion would be suitable for grid storage where size wouldn't be a problem i guess but aluminum ion would drastically improve mobile devices performance and battery life and bring more range to EVs while being lighter

@Captain_Chaz86

Жыл бұрын

Takes 20 years for the FCC to improve new battery technology to be safe for use. There have been new battery technologies approved that end up bring scrapped because they proved to not be effective as originally thought

@RekySai

Жыл бұрын

Understand the fact that you're calling them aluminum ion and lithium ion batteries is very bad and you really don't understand the technology. They are called Lithium polymer because they are lithium ions stuck to a plastic it's kind of sad that no one knows that

@Nexus_545

Жыл бұрын

@@RekySai Um... Was this reply meant for a different comment?

@chaselewis6534

Жыл бұрын

@@3laarafat625 Lithium Sulfur is 100% going to be the next gen of Li-ion. They basically have been solved in the lab.

#1 Solid State 4:59 #2 Sodium 6:14 #3 Aluminum-Ion 7:33 #4 Niobium 8:43 #5 Lithium Sulfur 10:21

@BobHakan

Жыл бұрын

thx for saving me from wasting more time here

@snorttroll4379

Жыл бұрын

2x speed as well

@strawberriesanddeath

Жыл бұрын

Solid state.. Glass or ceramic? So they element use is sillicon? Sand?

@aniket33591

Жыл бұрын

Lithium Sulfur seems interesting.

@liggerstuxin1

Жыл бұрын

Hero

I'd love to see more on recycling or environmental impact in general and fire/explosion risks. Safe energy storage is one of my main concerns, next to being able to properly recycle batteries. As you mentioned, there is no battery to rule them all. A smaller capacity EV battery that can be charged super fast (like the Al-ion at 6C) means more charge cycles on the road but with the same energy demands as a double size 3C battery. Even if that Al-ion battery last half as long as traditional EV batteries but can be recycled properly (and does not cost as much) then this is a great solution for a lot of EVs.

@stalker42

Жыл бұрын

My main thought was what the fire risks for these five were. If they're safer than lithium, that's an added incentive to switch.

Big fan of this comparison type video, would love to see a similar one on grid scale energy storage.

@MasterBlaster3545

Жыл бұрын

Energy Dome is the only solution for that.

@karlsjostedt8415

Жыл бұрын

Current batteries are cheap enough to transition all power generation to renewables and storage but new tech like sodium ion batteries will be even better where power per weight is less important. Super cheap and long lasting...

@noamanrasul

Жыл бұрын

I second that ❤❤❤

@Username-qx9gk

Жыл бұрын

Pumped hydro, hydrogen and Sabatier process methane (ideally with captured Co2)

@theo949

Жыл бұрын

+1

Just wanted to let you know that I really appreciate the work you do and I really appreciate the fact that you called your channel undecided. I think the world could use more undecided people rather than actively picking at Black or White. Our world is full of Gray. Thanks for all you do.

@Krushx0

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, with that undecided nature we would be still living in caves and under the trees. Has Matt's any video's subject came into a product on the shelves? Correct me if I wrong but I dont think so. These kind of videos mostly advertisements for opportunistic groups in the industry. On the other hand I agree with you the world is more colorful and complex than being simple black and white but that doesn't mean that our choice and actions are not binary that comes down to yes and no all with advantages and disadvantages of our choices and actions.

@drillerdev4624

Жыл бұрын

@@Krushx0 you just saw the man build his friggin' house based on tech shown in this channel. Also, take into account that from lab, to economically viable prototype, to mass production, a lot of steps must be achieved. Current breakthroughs won't be seen at shelves for some years.

@rp9674

Жыл бұрын

Great point, it's like being curious versus being sure.

@fearfx1

Жыл бұрын

You appreciate a grift, ha

@03samjon1

Жыл бұрын

Even Gender is not binary, go figure…….

My uncle worked on battery technology for Dunlop here in Australia in the 1970s and 80s - it always frustrated him how slowly they made progress due to the relatively primitive materials science they had at the time. Sadly he is no longer with us but I often think about how excited he would be if he could see how things have progressed in the 2000s since NiMH (which is probably more of a nineties thing), then Lithium Ion arrived. Despite some of the challenges the modern world is throwing at us today it is great that there are still things to wonder at.

@MrDrone-qt6sw

Жыл бұрын

Sad reality is no matter how much you work or passionate you will leave leaving everything

@derpinbird1180

Жыл бұрын

True, sounds like he was an interesting guy

@Gogglesofkrome

Жыл бұрын

@@MrDrone-qt6sw In such a scenario, it's better to not consider your work for yourself, but rather a contribution and investment into a future beyond yourself

@MrDrone-qt6sw

Жыл бұрын

@@Gogglesofkrome but beyond yourself itself is a concept based on beliefs lol

@ireallyreallyreallylikethisimg

Жыл бұрын

dunlop like the tire company?

Great video, something to point out on the Lithium Sulfer batteries is the C-Rate comparison. You mention that they "only" have a 0.5C rate, whereas in reality that is basically the same as the Li-ion. A 1C rate at 200WH/KG is the same as a 0.5 C rate of a 400WH/KG battery in terms of power delivery per density. So basically, a 1KG battery in either chemistry could potentially deliver 200 watts over an hour, which to me sounds very promising.

everyday, we see a new battery tech without change, i've been seeing this since 2005

great stuff, i'm surprised some of these are so close to commercial use, obviously there might be some delays but it really feels like the next couple of years are going to see a lot of exciting stuff.. something like 5 years is really not _that_ long :) also having more options for battery tech will reduce the pressure on any one technology, like we have for lithium today, so that's only a good thing i think

Awesome! Made me feel confident that the scenario in 5 years will be vastly different (or at least at the brink of becoming so) with several innovations still to come. Which is something VERY much needed.

Love this type of video. Please make them every once in a while to keep us updated!

Great video, it would be amazing to see the comparison focus on grid scale batteries recap too, like sand battery, brick battery, molten salt battery vs Li-ion

Thanks Matt. Always enjoy your videos and hi tech news in general. My favorite is aluminum graphene one. It should be easiest to make, cheapest to produce and 100% recyclable (at least in theory). Almost too perfect to be true. Could you also look into Exro Technologies and their new type of electric engine for us. Seems to have a great potential to save 5 to 50% of battery power depending on use. Substitutes need for multiple engines in EV or need for a transition. Also it simplifies drive train and reduces cost of EV to manufacture. It also comes with smart electronic coil drive/converter which enables charging EV directly from any electrical source. They also claim that their coil drive can manage Li-ion batteries to charge more efficiently on every cell level prolonging life and making them safer to use. Looking forward to your next video. Cheers

I love the breakdown as the number of innovations is mind-boggling and it's hard to imagine what lab innovations are actually going into commercialization. It would be interesting to have some more statistics compared though. Like expected $/KWH, recyclability of the batteries and usage of critical materials as these might have a significant impact on the implementation of these batteries as well (I do understand that it might take too much time and resources to procure those stats though). Thanks for the great video.

A year ago I swapped out my Lead-Acid for Lithium Iron Phosphate 100 amp batteries in my simple off grid home solar. Manufactured by Chins, (there are others also) they are a HUGE improvement in holding charge and charging speed at a cost very near Lead-Acid. Light weight , compact and available on Amazon. I'm now in off-grid heaven.

Great overview. I've been in the Li-Ion battery industry for over 10 years now. I'm not sure what to think about solid state batteries. They have been "a few years from market" since about 2010. I've started to think of it like nuclear fusion. Also, an interesting thing is electrode specific energy as measured in the laboratory does not translate well to system energy density (volumetric or gravimetric). Many exotic chemistries need extra systems for thermal regulation, electrolyte circulation or a pressurized air vessel. By the time a functional pack is assembled all the energy density gains at the electrode level disappear with these added components. There is no free lunch with physics. I believe we will be seeing NMC, NCA, and LFP chemistries for a lot longer than battery optimists want admit 🙂

Perfect timing Matt! Always doing the research I am too lazy to do! Best science reporter on youtube!

Hi. You touched on the vehicle charging issue briefly. This is one of the big elephants in the room. I'd like to hear some more discussion on the huge infrastructure limitations that apply fairly universally. As an exercise use a low "C" charge rate of 5C (12 minutes) to charge a 60kWh EV battery. Now multiply that by 10 cars at the charging station at once. The power being drawn from the grid is enormous. I've worked in the electrical industry for over 30 years and know there's decades of upgrades ahead of us and we're already way behind. Don't get me wrong. I love EV's. There's a lot of work to be done on the entire electrical chain in addition to battery development. Most of which seems to be getting put in the too hard basket.

Hey Matt, I think an interesting topic for a video would be the toroidal propellers currently being tested/manufactured at MIT and Sharrow given how they have so many potential applications across so many different markets.

@jdmjesus6103

Жыл бұрын

I think they've been overhyped a bit tbh. If you look at the graph comparison they are better, but at peak efficiency, they are only marginally better. The big differences are only under certain conditions and won't make that much difference in real world situations. Of course, better is better, they just aren't as good as some of the headlines claim.

@ElGoogKO

Жыл бұрын

@@jdmjesus6103 Things can't always be best for everything. A supercharged v8 race engine is great on a race car but not on a lawn mower nor on a semi truck nor on a forklift, etc. A new type of vibration fan that was recently presented is great for clean rooms and spaceships, but not for your gaming computer. An 8k 88" tv is great for a big ass corporation conference room, but not for gaming at home If that propeller is used specifically for what it can do much better than anything, then is the best solution

@sudonim7552

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, they're not original. They took the idea from preexisting, already patented boat propeller designs, and independent tests have already shown they give you no significant advantages in air.

@879PC

Жыл бұрын

@@jdmjesus6103 that's exactly why I think it would make a great topic for the video. Discerning what's unnecessary hype vs. actual science is exactly what this channel is about

@Starkl3t

Жыл бұрын

@@sudonim7552 then why are they being used in drones?

Great video with clear simple comparisons. It would have been a lot more helpful to see cost if that information was available

@UndecidedMF

Жыл бұрын

👍 Glad you liked it. In some cases costs weren't available (highly speculative), so I opted to just leave it out at this high level view.

I imagine the physical density of these battery types varies as well, so energy/volume might be a good comparison attribute to highlight in addition to energy/mass. Volume matters.

Thank you!!! We needed an update on the "top five" batteries even if it's subjective & changing almost daily. Greatly appreciated! Maybe consider a regular (quarterly maybe?) part of the format?

Awesome. It’s fun to hear about the other techs that r being worked on. Thank you

I think sodium ion will be a game changer in both grid and home stationary storage. What I have read has them at 30% of the cost of NMC, so figure a powerwall or Generac PWRcell for $5,000 instead of $15,000. A lot more people could get home storage, including lower income households with subsidies or grants. They could do this even before installing solar and use them for arbitrage reducing peak demand on the grid.

@cmbakerxx

Жыл бұрын

You wont see those kinds of price reductions for products like powerwall. While the battery is a big chunk of the cost it is only one piece. Just look at a Chevy Bolt $30,000 for 65kwh vs powerwall at $15000 for only 10kwh. On the other hand grid scale components like Megapack and similar would be significantly impacted by the cost of the primary component.

@adon8672

Жыл бұрын

More like 30% less than NMC. That's 70% of NMC.

@IronmanV5

Жыл бұрын

@@adon8672 You're thinking of LFP. They are about 65% of the cost of NMC. Na-ion will be 29% of the cost of NMC, about 1/2 the cost of LFP.

@kameljoe21

Жыл бұрын

@@cmbakerxx Power wall is over priced and you can buy a server rack battery for 1500 bucks at 5kwh plus and a all in one inverter for 1500 bucks. You are in it for 4500 dollars now, add another battery and you have the same capacity as the powerwall. Now I am not sure what the specs or inverter are on the powerwall as I have given up on keeping up with the overpriced unit. EG4 all in one unit are. You know what let me just copy one of their full systems at or close to the 15k a powerwall cost. Complete Off-Grid Solar Kit - 13,000W 120/240V Output / 48VDC [20.5kWh EG4-LifePower4 Lithium Powerwall] 48VDC + 11,970 Watts of Solar PV | [KIT-E0002] Your Price: $15,395.92 I do not think you can go wrong with that, add under 5k to install and set up you are in it for 20k total and if you factor in 2k total electric cost for a year (166 month) you can have a payback of 10 years. With this system lets assume you get an average of 8kwh five times per day for a total of 40 times 365 gives you 14600 times 15 cents per kwh 2190. Now this does not factor in your service charge which is 20 dollars per month and increase of electric prices in the coming years. You could see a return on your investment in a much shorter time as well. Buy used panels and it will reduce your price by a huge amount. Fill out your array to 100% and your return changes. Have you ever wanted to run an extra freezer or run your ac unit a bit cooler. With some of this extra energy you can do that. Also if you really want to increase your savings you can spend just under 2k to buy a EG4 mini split 2 ton unit that offers you a direct solar connection of around 3kwh of solar and works in grid only, solar only or both modes. Meaning that if you bought and installed one of these units say in your garage or shed and put it on solar you could heat and cool it with out it costing you any out of pocket costs per month. how about a chicken barn keeping it warmer or cooler will keep them happy and laying eggs all the time.

@IronmanV5

Жыл бұрын

@@cmbakerxx Hence why I mentioned the Generac PWRcell. It's one of many options for home storage besides the powerwall. As for the Bolt, how does it charge off solar when it's parked at work? For homes without solar, how does it power the house during the day in summer when the kids are home during summer break? The reality is that a lot more people will have home storage before they get their first EV because it will become much more affordable and it will allow people to save money from day one with or without solar, or wind.

Great to see improvements.. I would be really interested in all those implementation on grid scale batteries that are already operational or in the phase of executing. These cases would be interesting to pitch to the company I work for to implement them ourselves. (we kinda use a lot of energy.)

@sjsomething4936

Жыл бұрын

Yes, same for the company I work for. Large distribution centres that could have massive solar arrays on them and grid storage which could be charged during off peak times for use during peak periods, it’d save the company money as well as giving the company a backup power source for our data centre during power outages. We could probably also have relatively large wind turbines on some of the same sites.

Thank you for the quick overview, Matt and Undecided team!! In terms of most capable battery systems, I’m interested in learning about the ‘small stationary’ class we could think of as home energy storage, esp when trying to get close to off-grid, where renewable energy can be stored for longer to provide >1-2 days home energy and nearly eliminate intermittency as an issue for powering a home. I haven’t seen much around flow or other non-Li tech batteries for home energy storage. Nearly all of them are (rightly) focussed on business -> industry scale, in part due to space requirements. Looking to see if any flow/plating battery companies are working in the home / small business scale. Thanks again for your persistent and detailed interest in energy storage!!

Thanks for quick updates, I'm really excited to see what future will unfold. imo top 3 contender which we'll see soon are Solid state, Aluminum ion battery (for Ev, and smaller electronics), And Sodium batteries (for home/grid purposes).

For my small off-grid power system, the sodium-ion battery looks promising to me, especially with a potentially lower price tag and environmental footprint than lithium. And with the manufacturer being in Wales where I live, it's double lower footprint with short travel. I hope they are ready soon. My old lead acid batteries are close to dead.

@anydaynow01

Жыл бұрын

I think lead acid is very under rated for grid or stationary storage. It really depends on how good (advanced) the charger set up is and the depth of discharge, as I'm sure you know. Their simplicity, and ease / low cost of recycling make them very easily one of the best choices.

@mykolapliashechnykov8701

Жыл бұрын

@@anydaynow01 Lead acid is being now revived for the storage applications with the carbon augmented electrodes. Prices are atrocious, so is the weight, but at least the cycle life and current ratings are there.

@themanwithIBS

Жыл бұрын

These will be manufactured in China like everything else, then hauled to the west with giant diesel and coal burning vehicles. They don't give a damn about any kind of footprint sadly.

@noobulon4334

Жыл бұрын

Lithium iorn phosphate or lithium titanate oxide may be a good holdover for you that will last until other chemistries mature with a lifespan in the decades

@judyofthewoods

Жыл бұрын

@@noobulon4334 yes, I will be going for a LiFePO4 battery for now. I contacted Faradion about the Na-ion batteries, but was told that they won't be available to the public for a year. Incredibly they sent a personal reply within 10 minutes!

*"Lithium-ion replacement? Great new battery tech coming soon!"* Sorry, but we've walked past this same tree a dozen times and the thrill is gone. Wake me when lithium-ion has _been_ replaced.

Thank you, always way ahead in you giving expert knowledge, so well put it together. Cool video's. Cheers

I really appreciate this video and all you do, Matt. So clear! In fact, I've watched dozens of your videos and this is the first time I'm going to request more clarity. Please, when you do a list video, before going into each item, at the end of the intro, say, "The five battery technologies I am reviewing today are" ... Would also love to see the comparison expanded to include things like environmentally friendly source materials that you mention in other videos, and a full comparison chart either in the video or available for download. And a video segment for each battery type even better. Just thoughts to make a great channel even better!

Great video again. Makes me think-what more could a person ask for. My thoughts run 2 directions: First toward EV uses for possible investment purposes and second toward Home Power storage, which is personal to me because of local grid power outages. We live in a new age of inventing/engineering on both micro and macro scale. Please keep up the good work.

@swimfan6292

Жыл бұрын

Learn to be less dependent on electricity and technology. Carbon Footprint instantly and drastically decreased

@ThomasBomb45

Жыл бұрын

Unless you get to zero electricity dependence, battery backup makes sense

My focus is home energy storage which carries over to EV (eventually your EV will also provide home energy storage for backup power and for arbitrage scenarios). I think the technology with the greatest potential to change the world is the graphene super capacitor (similar to the Superbattery in your video). The technology is already here, but cost is still too high due to the manufacturing processes for graphene, but strides are being made in the right direction. The main advantage is the availability of raw materials (primarily aluminum and carbon), energy to weight ratio, and extremely fast rate of charge (minutes instead of hours). No more slave labor lithium or nickle mines. and recycling is easy. As for cycle life.....the potential is for 100,000 cycles. Only cold fusion will be better.

@mohamadafyouni5556

Жыл бұрын

i agree and i was doing my research on batteries storage and the best option we have is graphene all other battery they're just hoping and they can't accept the fact that they failed specially solid state battery been there since 1994 until now nothing for real just marketing while graphene it's different story they just focusing how they can make it cheap i think in the next 5 years graphene is the future and it will kill it.

Thank you, Matt, for providing this comparison list. It is much appreciated.

It's not technically a sealed battery, but I think vanadium fuel cells (aka flow batteries) are borderline criminally underexplored for grid scale storage, given that they've got far longer cycle lives than lithium based chemistries and their primary disadvantage is weight, not to mention that recycling of the electrolyte, the bit that's scarce in lithium cells, is trivial in vanadium based systems because it's a completely separate liquid that can be just drained off to allow only the fuel cell module to be replaced.

Other metrics that _would be useful_ are *safety* and *cold weather* operation (such as mentioned only for niobium battery). Lithium ion batteries have issues with runaway thermal effects, leading to fires, and exploding electronics and EV fires when damaged. This is a very important issue for consumer goods, particularly in EV's where a slight performance loss would be acceptable for increased safety - consider how much of a car's weight and cost is already invested in safety. And there's the much higher risk of having a car accident damaging the battery pack compared to crushing the battery of a tablet or smartphone. This would also be a concern of military users, as having batteries damaged by battle damage is certain to happen (you don't want a runaway battery fire on a military hybrid engine). The other issue that particularly concerns EV's is cold weather performance, EV cars just don't do well in sub zero (Celsius) conditions. There's a lot of anecdotal reports of EV range being limited in Canada for example. So the operating temperature when the battery starts getting degraded performance would be useful for comparisons.

Excellent work. The comparison with lithium was easy to make sense.

A someone working in the field: I kind of have a problem how you compare the new technologies to standard Li-Ion. For Li-Ion you show average values that an existing battery can have/keep all at the same time. For the new technologies you show ranges of values that have been demonstrated but in different cells. For example the solid state cells with very high energy density do not at the same time have the highes lifetime and high current capability.. The high values demonstrated in each subfield are not currently achievable while also having all of the other subfields in place. In individual subfield Li-Ion cells right know can achieve much higher values than depicted here albeit with the trade of in other fields. The new technologies have the same trade off.

Every week there is a new battery technology that is going to revolutionize the technology for over 20 years... But never comes out... This is one of them...

Good to hear that the arrival dates are almost there, having in mind hearing of these tech several years ago and finding out that it will take like 5 years to reach the market.

@houghwhite411

Жыл бұрын

or perpetual "10 more years"

You should investigate the Redflow zinc bromide flow battery, mainly for home and industrial applications due to it's size. No loss of capacity over its life, can discharge 100 percent with no issue, can sit at any charge without loss of power, much more than just these qualities

A comprehensive summary of the current contenders that are realistic for commercialization with the usual caveats you have pointed out Matt. As a retired Ph.D. material scientist, I had studied and followed many of these technologies for over 25 years and still have kept up with most if not all the ones with transformative potential. I (and surely many of your viewers as well) would like to hear your thoughts on the MIT work on Donald Sadoway's molten metal batteries, especially for GRID or even commercial storage applications?

Fabulous content. Really appreciate this comparative walk-through of various battery architectures. Of these, I've heard quite promising specs from Lyten's research in Li-S battery cells, which as you mentioned have superb energy density. I've heard Lyten state they see a pathway to 900w/kg and $80/kw, with the kicker being that it's a practically non-flammable chemistry and operates in a -40 to ~160C environment. Obviously if this verifies, and it's commercially scalable, it's a game-changer, and spells the almost immediate demise of any EV transition resistance. But I believe the much larger point is that battery cell R&D is in widespread, full-swing, and we're barely in the first inning. There is much reason to be optimistic.

@Ithirahad

Жыл бұрын

Lithium-anything has inherent problems... thankfully sodium-sulphur's being worked on too.

@neutronpcxt372

Жыл бұрын

Lithium sulfur is still problematic in terms of cycle life, but as time goes on, it is being improved. The Journal of the Electrochemical Society has a lot of studies in this regard.

@Ithirahad

Жыл бұрын

@@neutronpcxt372 It's problematic in terms of being LITHIUM. Lithium is expensive and has a lot of geopolitical issues associated with it. Only really worth it for aviation and even then, aluminium-ion should be better (comparable energy density, safer).

I like science/news videos like yours a lot. In my years I saw A LOT groundbreaking concepts for battery, energystorage and powerplants; not only here, but on many channels. Not one single item reached the public so far and I am honest here: I am tired of hearing about the 1000´s lithium-kobalt-iron-airFlow-water-sand-nickel-roboter-Pirates-from-outta-space-battery technologie of the future. It´s cool that people work on solutions, but so far nothing came out of it besides the always-same-feeling videos, I can´t feel hype for there anymore

@Winnetou17

Жыл бұрын

Same. And I can't nag the feeling that some of these are actual scams. Though for certain some are real. I guess that now, when we're already bottlenecked by the Lithium production, the current batteries price will increase to insane levels, which should allow the other types that haven't reached the economies of scale to finally surface in the consumer market. But I still don't know if it will be this year or in 5 years. The hype always hides or kills good estimations on this regard.

@Xcelential

Жыл бұрын

I would say that LFP (lithium iron phosphate) batteries are the first battery types that are not NMC (lithium nickel-metal-cobalt) that have reached commercial scale and may soon overtake NMC batteries in both stationary storage and EV markets. A few years back, LFP was only a promise of a battery that did not require the toxic heavy metals of NMC (it was just "hype", like the many other technologies mentioned in You Tube videos). So, that is at least one exception to the "all-hype" battery types. I think the second one to hit commercial scale will be sodium-ion batteries for stationary storage, simply because CATL, the world's largest battery manufacturer, will be producing it in volume next year.

@sjsomething4936

Жыл бұрын

I second @Excelential in that yes, there’s a lot of hype, but that’s the nature of the beast nowadays. It’s what is needed to get funding to complete the R&D and commercialization of some of these technologies. I take the 50,000 foot view that the various projects researching batteries are all coming up with innovations, and given that humans have really only been focused on improving batteries in any significant way for about 10 years, there are a lot of approaches, or combinations of approaches that will bear fruit. If there was any real reporting on the state of battery research even in 2010, the number of videos would be small and boring, mostly discussing small improvements to LiOn batteries rather than completely different chemistries. Also, the leaps and bounds in materials science is helping enable this explosion in research, and some of the materials advances have only come about in the last decade at most. For example graphene has only existed since 2004 and volume production is still challenging for this material. So I understand the frustration and feeling of being deceived, but humanity really does seem to be heading towards a new phase of technological progress, especially with batteries.

Hi Matt, when comparing battery technologies, one important metric is energy efficiency (not coulombmetric). Could you include this in the future? The reason that many salt-water batteries do not make sense is that they have an efficiency of around 30-70% whereas Li-ion can be 95%+. When assessing new startups in battery tech this is probably the first thing I ask (also because it is never in the pitch).

I'd love to see you cover all of them, make it a series. Personally I'm bullish on aluminum-graphene and iron-flow batteries but your spot on about there's no battery that will replace all others. Since GMG's aluminum-graphene batteries are rated at 60c-70c, I think they could be used very successfully at charging stations to prevent sudden grid loading during heavy use and speed-up turnover times. Iron-flow is a great answer to any NIMBY sentiments and has basically no down-sides for its intended role of long duration, stationary power supply and most importantly, it's a product you can buy right now.

I think sodium batteries for grid storage have huge potential. Cheap and cycle life will be king in this area.

It is so annoying waiting year after year for these to change me to market. I bet in 3 years we will still be waiting.

@Tremor244

Жыл бұрын

Ikr? So many videos about awesome break throughs, and world changing technologies, but nothing really seems to happen...

@coolranch1660

Жыл бұрын

These are all coming soon, any day now, I can feel it, right around the corner, going to be a game changer… soon…

The Sodium Battery is by far the winner imo. The raw materials are often byproducts of other chemical processes.

Always an interesting update, thanks

I personally like the concept of the aluminum ion battery quick charging quickly charge an abundant of materials

I would love to see the stats from this video on a single table for comparison.

Hi Matt, I work in a building that’s part of the old Kodak "Eastman Park" in Rochester and it’s Huuuuge plus it has processing and infrastructure it sells out to companies. The ability to place materiel on film and substrate in large quality controlled environment and then roll them up and put in a can is"Eastman Kodak". In fact they had a battery division. While touring a small part of this old giant called Rochester Silver Works, I was gobsmacked at the ability to receive train cars of spent film and X-ray materials come in and virgin high quality material go out, one of which was silver nitrate . On my walk through I saw a rejected roll of material (large master rolls of film the size of rug rolls at Home Depot) that was from Tesla with copper rectangles (shhhhh). It’s above my pay grade but if there isn’t something brewing here there should be and it would be a sin. The infrastructure and skills are priceless an d dozens of times in my 63 years here-seen the leaders of Kodak, Xerox, and Bausch and Lomb frozen and unable to see a way not to rest on their upper hand position. If I had an idea for a new type of battery chemistry consisting of a "jelly roll " format, anode,cathode; rolled up and put in a can, this is where I would go.

Thanks for great videos! Vanadium batteries although also grid scale I think is worth mentioning or perhaps a video?

One of my friends recently described to me the idea of "pumped storage hydropower" essentially being a mechanical form of a battery. Although it's not exactly a new concept I had never heard of it before and I thought the simplicity and practicality of it (in regions where it can be done of course since topography is a big factor) was actually really neat.

@harpintn

Жыл бұрын

They built a facility like that in my region back in the late 1980's I am not sure if it is still being used or not because it has been years since I have heard anything about it.

@snuffoutrouge5109

Жыл бұрын

Where I live they could easily do this in many suburban places and run the water down the hills from a tank during the night and then pump it back up during the day from the excess solar being put back into the grid.. The whole state is renewable energy . So we don't use carbon generators its hydro and wind generation for the grid. unless there is a drought

@kaihanstein52

Жыл бұрын

There has been done extensive research about the feasability of this kind of energy storage in Germany / Europe. Basically there are no places in Germany anymore to build such plants. The concept is not new at all. And yes, the stats are incredibly good! So I guess in the US they already build these plants where they it made sense?

Appreciate all this work on innovations and showing people a "brighter" future with all the gloom content these days that grabs attention faster... 🙏

Thks for informative podcast again and would be nice to see this top 5-10 batteries for larger stationary, non-ev if and when you get a moment.

Matt...very nice video. Thanks for sharing.

Please do a companion video on battery technologies that lend themselves to stationary applications.

Do any of these batteries solve the temperature problem (i.e., they lose 1/3rd of capacity when cold)???

Your intro is one of the most memorable ones i have ever heard! Ty for the interesting videos!

A great summary, thank you.

"Batteries to keep an ion", this one has to be one of my favorite puns this year ^^ Who else?

I'd be interested in a video about the conceptual battery that John Goodenough came up with a few years back. The one that various other physicists believed to be physically impossible.

@ThomasBomb45

Жыл бұрын

Are we talking about liquid metal batteries? Thought they're currently being tested

@M3dicayne

Жыл бұрын

@@ThomasBomb45 The problem with liquid metal (Indium, Gallium, etc...) is that they are EXPENSIVE. We really need to get rid of metals that are more expensive than the current ones... I heard about a battery using Plutonium waste in microscopic quantities - they allegedly last for up to 15 years. THAT would actually be nice in a smartwatch, smartphone or car. And we would get rid of nuclear waste.

Thank you fr making this video. You are correct it is too early to tell which of these 5 technologies will capture a significant market share of which battery technology use markets. But it is good to share the possibilities with everyone. Would you please, make a similar video for the 5 most promising long and short utility scale battery storage technologies? and/or What combinations will help balance and meet grid the demands of the grid of the future that will rely on solar, wind, hydro and geothermal?

Love your channel Matt, would love to hear more about the Diamond battery.

I am still tickled pink that I have 2kwh of LiPO4 batteries in my little camper van when just a few years ago that would have required at least 8 times the weight using lead acid tech… not to mention the dramatic increase in discharge cycles. But I would totally accept twice the weight in sodium ion tech, especially with a 6C charge and discharge capacity. We truly live in amazing times.

For EV's high C rate not only means charge time, but it also strongly impacts how powerful of a EV you get out of a given battery size. It'll mean you don't have to spring for the long range version of a car to get the couple seconds quicker 0-60. C rating is arguably the most important metric provided we have charging infrastructure. It enables super quick charging cars with small batteries that are still powerful. Small batteries means cheaper cars and charging time is probably one of the biggest drivers of range anxiety.

@nasonguy

Жыл бұрын

Right. Hearing "6C" for some of these techs is great, but is that sustained or instantaneous? A lot of EVs are hitting 15C for short bursts. It's unfortunate that Lithium Ion is so expensive and harmful to the earth, but it hits all of the needs, high energy density (for batteries), incredible C rates, and high cycles. When we see an alternate tech that can beat Li-Ion in those categories, and be cheaper, then we're in business.

@hamjudo

Жыл бұрын

Some RC car racers routinely discharge LiPo batteries at a C40 rate and charge them at C6. That is full to empty in 90 seconds and empty to full in 10 minutes. For thermal reasons, those batteries are thin, so there is a lot of surface area to dissipate heat. Power density is high, but energy density is low. The most shocking statistic is the incredibly poor cycle life of batteries treated this way. 50 cycles is an aspirational goal.

@ruleslawyer

Жыл бұрын

@@hamjudo I have 120c RC batteries, but they die insanely quick as you said and its more about voltage sag than actually drawing 120c. It would be interesting to see formula E rates as they probably drive the batteries at much higher rates.

@ThomasBomb45

Жыл бұрын

Fast 0-60 is a marketing gimmick, fast charge would be nice for road trips but a car can easily charge in the garage overnight when power is cheap, best overall for the grid

@ruleslawyer

Жыл бұрын

@@ThomasBomb45 Logical or not charge time is a huge driver of range anxiety, which in turn drives preference for larger batteries, which drives high EV prices. If you could charge a car in a couple minutes a EV very low range would be much less of a problem even if it came up in day to day driving once in awhile. 100mile range EVs would be much more viable. Also a lot of people live in places without access to overnight charging. Overnight charging doesn't really impact that equation. Imagine a 300 mile $50k EV that takes 30min (2C) or $30k EV with 100 miles range and takes 10 min to charge. In an overnight charge situation they would be the same, but in nearly any other day to day situation the cheaper EV is probably better. For really long trips a bigger battery is still better, but a 200 mile 6C battery will outperform a 300mile 2C battery in terms of Miles per minute of charging at still be cheaper, lighter, etc.

Hi Matt, thanks for another great video, Alan

I'm not sure at what point I realized I wasn't at the Practical Engineering channel. It was actually pretty eerie. Fantastic, fantastic video.

Why did the charged ion go to the doctor? Because it was feeling a little negative.

C ratings for NMC were closer to that of LiFePo4. NMC will easily do 10C or more (temperature dependent). Also LiFePo4 will do 20k cycles at reduced depth of discharge. A hype bubble of vaporware battery tech

@zachlafond2652

Жыл бұрын

LFP is proven and Ford is going all in on it. Even Tesla uses it in some models.

Hey mate!! Thank you for all the valuable information you have been educating us with. I would like to get a recap about Graphene or Graphyne based batteries and where they lie in the commercialization phase? Thank you

Great video, subbed i love batteries 2!, hopefully there will be a great one for drone/uavs get rid of fast 3~~4 minute flights and scream around for at least a good 40~60 minuts,i think that hobby would be a llot more popular.thank you for sharing.

I'll believe it when I can buy it

Batteries are NOT typically rated at 1C, they are typically rated at 0.05C or the 20 hour discharge rate. Actual capacity drops, sometimes dramatically, with increasing discharge rate and many battery chemistries struggle at the 1C rate (like common primary alkaline) and you only get a fraction of the capacity you get if you discharge over a day. Good luck actually knowing this with only the manufactures data sheet because they are usually missing many key performance metrics.

@bosstowndynamics5488

Жыл бұрын

NMC and LFP are both quite happy at 1C, the capacity drop going from a 0.05C test cycle up to 1C won't be that much for NMC, and it will only be significant for more easily available LFP batteries, like the types used for solar battery storage in home made systems.

@hugegamer5988

Жыл бұрын

@@bosstowndynamics5488 name a commercial installation of any lithium chemistry and note the maximum power is often one half or one quarter of capacity. Same is true of other chemistries, it’s due to thermal as well as other system requirements

@hugegamer5988

Жыл бұрын

@@bosstowndynamics5488 one main reason being charge/discharge cycles. When you try 1C you might get half the cycles of 1/4C costing tens of millions of callers commercially.

@bosstowndynamics5488

Жыл бұрын

@@hugegamer5988 You're cherry picking by choosing a specific application and then generalising. Commercial installations are fixed installations with large banks of batteries that require endurance more than anything else, so they use more robust, longer lasting but lower discharge chemistries. Most LiPoly chemistries will happily discharge at 80C +, on the other hand, the NMC chemistries used in EVs will easily do 1C (the peak discharge rate in a Model S is 10C, those cells aren't going to struggle at 1C), the cells in power tools are designed to be discharged rapidly as well.

@hugegamer5988

Жыл бұрын

@@bosstowndynamics5488 there is literally no chemistry outside of a capacitor thus not a battery that is “happy at 80C” You need serious thermal management, get reduced capacity, and the cells won’t last long at all.

It's very interesting to learn about the recent development of batteries, because it somehow affects a broad field of technology and sectors. Great vid!

Great work, thank you!

I think solving the Cobalt problem is more pressing than the Lithium problem. Similarly, Sulfur has a terrible extraction process, often having people with minimal safety gear harvest it from volcanism. Surprised you should have included Phosphate batteries since they are the only alternative outside the lab, and Tesla has suggested there will be better formulas for it. Of the five mentioned, Aluminium is the best option for Supply and Use though the reliance on Graphene has me concerned it'll have more of a Solid State timeline.

@anydaynow01

Жыл бұрын

They are using methane pyrolysis to make the pure carbon for their graphene so it's actually an extremely clean process and solves a lot of the problems (byproducts, limited sources, cost and time) with making graphene from mined graphite. So those are two things we have plenty of around the world aluminum and natural gas, and a RNG source would be even better as more digester facilities are coming online.

@JoeWein

Жыл бұрын

Most elementary sulphur is a byproduct of petroleum or natural gas refining. There are many sulphide minerals that can be used as a source. What disqualifies Li-S batteries so far is the very limited cycle life. The majority of lithium ion EV batteries in China are Cobalt-free LFP.

So many technologies have for "numerous decades" been very"close" to market! lol

Do you put Lithium iron phosphate batteries in the same bucket as Lithium ion? Thanks for the deep dive into other resources.

Very well informative video of actual battery breackthrought, but there are really a lot more to uncover!! Especially for consumers electronic and grid storage! Like Magnesium-Ion batteries, Calcium-ion, Zinc-ion, Zinc-Air, Lithium-Air, Sodium-Sulfur, etc etc etc 😅😅

Has Matt talked about Community Batteries yet?

@UndecidedMF

Жыл бұрын

Not yet.

@Kangaroo-Bob

Жыл бұрын

Can't wait to hear your thoughts. There seems like so much upside to CBs over Home Storage. I'm wondering if there's any downside

Thank you for the C rate explanation.

Alternatives for things like stationary storage frees up lithium for EVs so anything is an improvement. If they are also less prone to thermal runaway that would be great for stationary power.

@SmallSpoonBrigade

Жыл бұрын

Indeed, and if they can make sodium work, it's a helpful use for the sodium that is a byproduct of desalination plants.

I wil be keeping an 'ion' all potential new battery tech. Hard to predict which wil come out on top as one option may be a better solution for 1 niche area but a poor solution for another. Better not to put all of one's eggs into 1 basket...

I've been watching this show for a couple of years now, and I have yet to see just one thing you talk about hit the market. Just one thing. This show is FOS!

@SunnyNatividad

Жыл бұрын

Uhm... Last week's video is literally just that. Also, solar panels, solar roofs, smart home automation, passive houses, agrivoltaics, mycelium, etc.

@skunkhammer

Жыл бұрын

@@SunnyNatividad Solar panels and solar roofs have been around for decades, the rest that you mention is vaporware.

@SunnyNatividad

Жыл бұрын

@@skunkhammer But, you said just one thing.

@SunnyNatividad

Жыл бұрын

@@skunkhammer I didn't know agrivoltaics is vaporware. Thanks for the info.

Awesome view of all up coming tech. I use the old tech of AGM batteries. Also live on the Sunshine Coast hinterland in Queensland Australia. Should I utilities additional ventilation via air circulation to assist with cooling the batteries? Also I am interested in trialing new tech batteries and will contact local companies, to see if they are interested. Thanks for your coverage! 👍

Thanks for the video! Sodium-ion battery looks interesting for a home battery application!

To be honest, I don't really care how much of in improvement these are. If they can't be produced and manufactured in an ethical and environmentally friendly way, there is no chance I'm going to buy them.

This guy has been making these videos for years... Still no breakthroughs. Please stop making these videos.

Thanks for the video!

Thank you for the nice overview! It would be interesting, for each battery chemistry, to see some indication of the temperature dependence on the various metrics. For example, for an EV which battery candidates would be appropriate given the environmental extremes of, say, the Arctic to the Sahara? Which might be viable candidates for spacecraft?

Companies won't allow it. Battery failure is now the only reason to buy a new device

@iamaduckquack

Жыл бұрын

We have a winner. Capitalism won't allow it.

@hamsterminator

Жыл бұрын

So you wouldn't buy a device with a better battery if it was offered? Competition will make it happen.

@SciFiMangaGamesAnime

Жыл бұрын

Assuming that all companies are some cabal of ludditties. Which is false. The moment someone offers much better option others will have to keep up the pace.

@shitlordflytrap1078

Жыл бұрын

@@hamsterminator what do you not understand by "won't allow it"

@shitlordflytrap1078

Жыл бұрын

@@SciFiMangaGamesAnime this would be true if there weren't several examples of this stuff actually happening in different industries.

The humor on this channel is almost intolerable.

@jurajbeger9299

Жыл бұрын

You mean ‘keep en eye on’? :)

@desmondberry528

Жыл бұрын

Super Dad joke.

@goingoutotheparty1

Жыл бұрын

Ouch !

@UndecidedMF

Жыл бұрын

I like bad puns.

@Quickened1

Жыл бұрын

@@UndecidedMF if it's a pun worth it's weight in "salt" that is...

Quite cool variety of an NMC battery is an LTO one. Switching graphite anode to effectively a ceramic material you get insane lifetime, temperature range and C-rates...at the cost of significantly lower energy density and lower cell voltage.

I'm partial to the sodium ones. Easy to resource for and especially large scale power storage can use that, although I'd still prefer potential energy storage above most batteries.

What about the diamond batteries? You featured these about a year ago, I am personally excited by these because of the benefits they may provide while helping to decrease the waste products we have to contain.

@TeamCykelhold

Жыл бұрын

most "new and incredible battery tech" is just vaporware meant for you to invest. There is a new promising battery tech every week.