I'm really glad you made this. I've been thinking about the same thing. Morally gray characters have been around since before Tolkien yet people talk like they were invented in 2011. The whole "I'm tired of good versus evil" thing has been going on since immediately after LOTR was published, and yet Conan is a morally gray character or anti-hero (Conan ends up doing good and defeating evil just so he can win, not for his own moral purposes). Elric, Thomas Covenant, Severian...the list goes on. Not new at all.

@Bookborn

Жыл бұрын

Yep and something else I forgot to mention were Greek myths - whose heroes did lots of messed up things. Like many things, it’s not new, it just got a label.

Really like the nuance you give to these topics like grimdark=/=morally grey and sometimes terms for something pop up more than the actual thing does.

Enjoyed the discussion - and I think you are pretty much spot on. The only things I might add are that over time, morally gray has always been there, but we used to call them the "conflicted" characters back in the day. Han Solo was essentially a good guy with a disreputable occupation, but he was conflicted between doing what he knew was right or collecting his money and leaving. Now, it is an actual label. We've also always had grim dark, but never in fantasy so much as in other genres like horror, drama, or thriller. Fantasy was always tropey with classic medieval settings and good vs evil with humans, elves and dwarves. Grim dark has found its way over to fantasy creating this whole new subgenre. One other thing I would add is that, yes, we've always had morally gray characters, but never in the proportions we see today. It used to be that in your fantasy tale, you had the good guys, the bad guys, and then there was always this one morally gray or "conflicted" character. These days, almost every character is morally gray or "conflicted". The proportion has shifted big time. Back then, the morally gray character was surrounded by the definitive good/evil characters. Nowadays, the definitive good/evil character is surrounded by morally gray characters. That is the trend of today.

@Steve_Stowers

Жыл бұрын

"Back then, the morally gray character was surrounded by the definitive good/evil characters." I think you might be right about this. Examples that spring to my mind include Thomas Covenant (from Donaldson's Chronicles of Thomas Covenant) and Raistlin (from Weis & Hickman's Dragonlance Chronicles), though it's been a long time since I've read them.

@bookrisingisclosed

Жыл бұрын

@@Steve_Stowers - Thomas Covenant is an excellent example. The funny thing about him is that besides being the morally gray or conflicted character, he was also the main character. Typically, back in those days, the main character was the "good guy" with maybe a side character as the conflicted one. Which might also bring up another good point ... perhaps it is also that we are seeing more of the main characters being morally gray whereas in the past, it was mostly side or supporting characters.

I like the definition sections of your videos. Please keep doing them!

@Bookborn

Жыл бұрын

Oh I won’t quit, but I’ll occasionally apologize for them 🤣

Great video! One thing you touch on that I think is important is that the SITUATION tends to be morally gray more so than the characters themselves. You give characters an impossible choice and it is easy to see them as morally gray when really, there was no right choice. One way I heard grimdark defined is that there isn't an absence of good/moral characters, but instead the world or society punishes characters for making the good or moral choice. ASOIAF does this really well. There are plenty of characters who are good and try to do the honorable thing in impossible situations, they just aren't rewarded for it (making their decision that much more meaningful).

@Bookborn

Жыл бұрын

That’s so funny because someone else just commented that morally gray is only used to describe characters and not situations 🤣 it’s hard to tell! I think morally gray characters can choose incorrect things even if there’s a right choice based on selfish reasons or something… Super love that grimdark definition though. I need to give that some thought…

Thanks for citing me (I'm At Boundary's Edge) as a source. I love this sort of deep dive and actual analysis of the genre. Grimdark aside, I think the other big trend right now is magic systems, which seems to stem from the fact that many current authors have a background in playing roleplaying games like D&D, where magic has too have rules, where as authors pre-2000 would have come from more mythic, or plain literary backgrounds. I'm more of a sci-fi guy, but there are some definite trends emerging there that I can link to history of the past few decades. Military SF went through an identity crisis during the war in Iraq, with a lot of patriotism followed by a deeper examination of the price of war, in a way I don't think happened previously, except perhaps in response to the war in Vietnam. More generally I can see fewer far-future books on shelves these days, and more that are set in the next century or so, reflecting current climate anxieties and fears of the everyday person. And of course there's a shift towards exploring non-US and non-European settings/authors too with the successes of Cixin Liu and Tade Thompson.

@Bookborn

Жыл бұрын

Ok I absolutely LOVED your article! It was so thoughtful and said so many things I didn’t know I was feeling about the humor of grimdark. What a good commentary on magic systems too. Maybe I need to deep dive into that (unless you already have an article about it…?)

My question is, why is every fantasy author using the same name for their characters? Why not Greg Gray, or Dorian Gray, why is it always Morally Gray nowadays?

@Bookborn

Жыл бұрын

Ben this is the most dad of dad jokes

EXCELLENT video. This is the Bookborn research content we wanted. I do think trends rise in response to each other; classic/heroic fantasy was big in the 80s and the 90s and grimdark became the response that readers and writers gravitated towards, and I think things like Legends and Lattes are absolutely a subconscious response to the trend of grimdark/darker fantasy as "cozy fantasy" becomes more popular. Also, our book media doesn't exist in a vacuum. The state of the world comes into play as well as trends in television and movies. The rise of grimdark parallels the rise in anti-hero protagonist shows as well: The Shield, Sopranos, Breaking Bad, The Wire, Mad Men, Sons of Anarchy, etc. While this is harder for me to pinpoint because I was a child at the time, I also think the mid-late 2000s was characterized by a lot of cynicism, I mean people kinda lambasted Bush for being an idiot but people didn't ~care~ because of course Bush was an idiot, ya know? And that kind of thinking carried over into a lot of things...which includes fantasy literature. Oh look, it's a good thing we have folks like Joe Abercrombie and George RR Martin all ready to go with a lot of cynicism! So yeah, long winded but basically I think fantasy trends are in conversation with the wider world's craving as well, which then creates a pendulum response.

@Bookborn

Жыл бұрын

Another Kyle comment, another Wire mention. But in reality I’ve always felt the way you do I’m just not up on the actual historical trends to explain it - like clearly sci fi and fantasy respond to the current feel and state of the world in maybe imperceptible ways. I wonder if cozy fantasy has anything to do with the fact that three years ago it felt the world was ending and maybe people would like a break from that narrative 🤣

@readbykyle3082

Жыл бұрын

@@Bookborn am I even me if I don't mention The Wire? 🤔

@Aldric524

Жыл бұрын

I think things are often in response to the real world. I think the rise of Cozy Fantasy and some of the backlash against Grim Dark is because people want some relaxation and hope after (or during) the pandemic. Who wanted grim dark right when it was still going on fiercely.

Great video! Fantasy trends are definitely interesting to see whats popular and rising, especially since it influences the shows/movies that draw so many people and hop on the same band-wagon. I have always been around the 40k universe, but only because I have an interest for the painting miniatures hobby, but I never was interested in the world/lore until I found out that Henry Cavill was doing a 40k show. Now I am swimming in grimdark 40k books and its been quite a fun ride to say the least.

I think morality has been explored since the start of stories. That's sort of how I like to look at grey morality, some exploration of the blurring of good and evil. In some early stories such as Beowulf (sterotypical hero), the hero dies questioning if he changed his morals and took the easy path. Lancelot was supposed to be the best of King Arthur's knights but betrayed his king. Loki is definitely not strictly a hero or a villain. I don't know as many other cultures to say about their folktales and morality. I agree with your point that grey characters have been around for a long time, but we only started using the term more recently.

@Bookborn

Жыл бұрын

Ah excellent point. In many ways the entire POINT of stories can be to examine our own thoughts and morality. Books that we think of as “squeaky clean protags” do it too - we can think of Boromir or even Galadriel in LOTR.

Lolz i love the call to action. I have two intresting trends that are affected by history to throw in! 1 - Conflicts. It's usually a good idea to include a conflict that the reader can relate to. Nowadays mental health is HUGE, so I feel a mental health trend in many fantasy stories that wasn't so highlighted before. Like, in LotR we see Golum as a mentally ill character, and he's disgusting and abhorrent. But now we have Shallan with a similar disorder and it takes much more screentime than Golum and shown as something people can relate to. 2 - AI Don't think I need examples here haha. It's very clear that while AI talks have been around for a long time, it is now more viral than ever, and we can see it in the content of books being released as well

Regarding the recent trend of cozy fantasy that you mention at some point : I think it is mostly a response to the pandemic, and our need for reassuring and cozy contents in this scary times.

@Bookborn

Жыл бұрын

I completely agree

@Aldric524

Жыл бұрын

Heh, that's what I said in reply to another comment, before I saw your comment.

I think you're right to bring the grimdark discussion into this. And as both someone who loves history, and who was alive to witness the spirit that pervaded the post WW2 atmosphere, and watched as we ran smack-dab into the Vietnam evacuation/Watergate/oil embargo, I definitely think that the spirit of grimdark (which may not be nihilistic, but def lacks a spirit of hopefulness) arose out of the changing attitudes of the era. The end of the Cold War did little to erase the impending feeling of vulnerability and questionable moral superiority that the war on terror only exacerbated. You're right that morally gray characters are absolutely nothing new. But the overriding spirit of hopefulness in story versus any sort of acceptance of meaninglessness (not necessarily a total lack of hope) is the overriding change that we're still seeing play out. It's tough to not be cynical when so many seem so prone to look out for number one. Another fine example of the thoughtful video essay that I thoroughly enjoy. Try to leave 'em thinking, I always say. You're tops in doing so.

Even what we think of as "pure good vs evil" stories like Lord of the Rings had morally grey characters. I think Boromir is a great example. So I agree with your video breakdown here.

@oudviola

Жыл бұрын

Boromir certainly, probably Denethor too. And back in the First Age, all those kin-slaying Noldor!

Great points! What you're saying makes complete sense, and I think you're right. It's the explicit nature of grim dark that makes morally gray characters seem so much worse. I remember reading a book as a young teen that had a few chapters go to the villains' perspective, and I couldn't handle it. I did NOT want to be in his head! If it hadn't done that, he would have just been the big bad, but being in his head made him more gross and me hate him more. As far as modern history and trends, I would say grim dark and intense action heavy fantasy was all people talked or cared about before 2020. I think cozy fantasy is a direct result of the shutdown. People needed an escape that wasn't as dark and intense as their lives. In fact I remember a video of Daniel Greene from during that time where he expressed being burnt out by all that fantasy and just wanting a fantasy that followed someone in their quaint village with nothing but village problems and relationships to deal with.

I was looking for a good video about it and I think yours is on point. Thank you!

So informative, thanks for the video. 🎉

I think people who have said things about morally gray characters being a new trend in fantasy have really showed their ignorance. Go back to the 1920s (through the 1970s when Shannara started Tolkien derived fantasy) and there are mostly gray characters in fantasy. These are Sword & Sorcery heroes, like Conan the Barbarian, Kull, Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser, Elric, etc. Brian Murphy would call sword & sorcery fantasy for turbulent times, and this was the start of the Depression era. S&S is also a large influence on Grimdark, more so than Tolkien. Why Sword & Sorcery is a great chapter/essay from Flame and Crimson by Murphy that explores this well, though maybe a little adjacent to what you’re discussing here.

@Bookborn

Жыл бұрын

It’s always a reminder to me that the population on Reddit must skew young. We can go back to the Greek myths and even Beowulf to talk about gray morality! You’re completely right.

@poeticvogon

Жыл бұрын

Chronicles of Amber is also a great example of books with morally gray characters. It is in no way something new,.

@genghisgalahad8465

Жыл бұрын

​@@Bookborn it's in the name, if it skewed older crowd, it would have (of, ugh) been named "Read it." And Gandalf was the first moral Lee gray character. He did say he WAS Saruman the White, as played by Christopher Lee. As Saran should have (of) been. D- answer.

@genghisgalahad8465

Жыл бұрын

@Kat V ph yeah Prospero! And Caliban would be like I dunno, um Gollum? A stretch?

@Zivilin

Жыл бұрын

I was actually going to post about traditional sword & sorcery having morally grey characters too before i read your post. My examples was a little more modern though with Dragonlance and Forgotten Realms novels. (so 80's-90's early-mid 2000s)😂

Thanks for exploring this topic, I really like the analysis on fantasy trends. I also never felt very comfortable with the supposed "morally gray" label, because gray compared to what? And whose morals?

Really thoughtful interesting video! In comic books, there was a rise in the mid-1980s of what was referred to often referred to as "grim and gritty" or sometimes "dark and edgy." (Strangely enough the first documented use of "grim and gritty" in connection to comics was in the 1960s Batman live action show, when the narrative expressed concern about where a story was going.) Many people point to the influence at that time of Frank Miller on Daredevil, Batman: Year One, and Dark Knight Returns and Alan Moore on Swamp Thing, Batman: The Killing Joke, and Watchmen. It inspired a lot of creators to turn good characters bad, introduce a lot of anti-heroes, kill or traumatize characters, and rack up significant body counts. From the mid-80s to the mid-90s, the darker tone led to people referring to that era of comics as the "Dark Age." But, many of us at the time and since feel the wrong lesson was drawn from Miller and Moore's stories, because they were creating more psychologically complex, but not more nihilistic, characters and stories. Unlike Zack Snyder's murderous take on Batman, Frank Miller's Dark Knight didn't kill and intervened to stop others from killing or being killed because of him. In the mid-90s, Grant Morrison actually called out the darker tone by writing a conversation between himself and a character, Animal Man. Breaking the fourth wall, the character says, “You killed my family. You ruined everything. Do you know what you’ve done to me?” Morrison responds, “Of course I know. I wrote your grief and your rage and your acceptance. It added drama. All stories need drama and it’s easy to get a cheap emotional shock by killing popular characters.” By conversation’s end, the cartoon Morrison sees that the values expressed in fiction correlate to the health of the society that produces that fiction. He concludes his own story by apologetically resurrecting Animal Man’s family, realizing that, “We thought that by making your world more violent, we would make it more ‘realistic,’ more ‘adult.’ God help us if that’s what it means. Maybe, for once, we could try to be kind.” There's a certain science fiction book that did something similar in the 2000s, but I'm not sure if it's a spoiler to say which one it was.

Love these distinctions!

I think morally gray characters have always existed, it's just they used to be more in the background/side chracters and nowadays they are at the forefront

@Bookborn

Жыл бұрын

Oohhh that’s an interesting theory! I’d have to do some stats analysis to see if that’s true or if it’s just our perception

@berlineczka

Жыл бұрын

I would also add: we used to have one or two morally grey characters per story, with the majority of the protagonists still being either good or bad. In the grimdark trend today we see not only a qualitative shift (the morally grey characters are being given more central role in the story) but also quantitative one (the majority or even all of the characters in the story are now morally grey, mediocre or at least deeply flawed, and not so many are actually purely good).

Hey! Literature graduate here! Historically, the works of authors have always responded to society and politics, like how they would create these insanely comical and satirical pieces of their time. If I were to think of fantasy as (not always but in some cases) a commentary on today's politics, then I can see how grimdark became a 'trend' for so many years. And as our world became shittier in the past 3 years, people have been looking to light-hearted and cozy fantasy, or even switching genres altogether. Though grimdark is still popular in its circles, the masses strayed after Game of Thrones. Edit: I was too quick to type it that I forgot to say I loved the topic of this video and it definitely opens a discussion. I think over time we kind of discovered that there's a term for our favourite characters that are neither good, nor bad and there's some nuance to them. I personally don't think we'll ever get back to fully good or bad characters, but I may just be speaking as a writer hah I think what makes grimdark fantasy is precisely the inclusion of morally grey characters because it portrays the reality of the human character/ nature in a world where really there is no pure goodness.

@Bookborn

Жыл бұрын

Ahhh the experts! Thank you 🤣 I figured it must be true since no author lives in a vacuum - and even if they may not consciously address things of the time it just seep in somehow.

I love your definition sections.

@Bookborn

Жыл бұрын

I’m glad someone does 🤣

“Not that Sirius is innocent but like we only have so much time today so” 😂😂 I agree with the assessment of A Song of Ice and Fire for most of the characters except for Theon. I feel of any character I have ever read that Theon is the definition of morally gray. But, the character was first written almost 30 years ago sooo- even though it is Grimdark, it isn’t that new 😂 Another great video!

@Bookborn

Жыл бұрын

I could go on for hours about Sirius/James/Snape and the general fandom perception of them I won’t lie 🤣🤣🤣 Yeah I think part of what we are seeing (like we talked about on insta lol) is publishers trying to find copy cats and thus it feels like a trend

I just got a PhD studying medieval history. So, this is just an observation: The famous fantasy authors around Tolkien's era were mostly war veterans (at that time who wasn't). Terry Brooks is not, Glen Cook almost served in Vietnam, Robert Jordan, the bridge between Tolkien and modern, served in Vietnam. They were quite familiar with war. And, apart from maybe Glen Cook (it's been several years since I read Black Company and don't remember it well), their fantasy is full of hope. No fantasy author recently is a veteran. And our era sees grimdark. It might mean nothing, but I do find it funny.

@Bookborn

Жыл бұрын

Ahh I’m very happy when the experts join the conversation 😂 That’s a super interesting observation. I’ve always known that many of our mid century/late 90s fantasy authors were war veterans (particularly tolkien and Jordan get talked about a lot) but I never thought about how they wrote about hope while the newer authors that haven’t seen war have gone toward grimdark. There is a lot to unpack there and I’m going to have to think about it for a bit. I wonder if those who had seen the horrors didn’t want to relive the hopelessness of it all

@danhaycraft9321

Жыл бұрын

@@Bookborn Yup. When Jordan wrote about the civil war that tore up Carhien and the refugee crisis...he probably lived it. No modern author has the same experience.

@oudviola

Жыл бұрын

I think the Vietnam War had a big impact on sci-fi (as in The Forever War by Joe Haldeman, also a vet). Fantasy is perhaps more indirectly affected by current events, so such trends may be harder to spot.

I do wonder if "Morally Grey Characters" is not just a shorthand for "Conflicted Characters." Its the appeal to the grim-er stories, even for those of us who do not seek out those subgenres. To see a character have pre-conceived notions, have them torn down, and either learn from them, or come back to their original thoughts victorious despite the mental warfare they conducted is what appeals to me.

@Bookborn

Жыл бұрын

Definitely. I think that’s part of why morally gray has been overused. Just because a character makes a bad choice or is conflicted doesn’t make them gray - it makes them a person. I think there are genuinely great people in this world who have made mistakes and hurt people… obviously! Nobody is perfect

i dont have the research right in front of me. i can dig it up after work, but there have been clear changes in tones in literature throughout history. the big two i can think of off the top of my head was the change in tone pre WWI. Where the general underlining sentiment was that humanity was becoming the best it could be. then the war happened and the tone changed to more... "realistic" perception of human nature. the second im am very aware of was the change that happened during the Cold War. the example in change was most evident in scifi, where before CW the view of the future was very positive. flying cars, cured all illnesses, no poor people, ect and different combinations. post CW everything became more apocalyptic. i think i am seeing a third change but dont wanna posit it till i have thought it through. but as always i am very grateful for how well thought out you are in these styles of videos. I am also very appreciative of your distinction between grim dark and morally gray. Black Company is my favorite fantasy series and is grim dark with morally negative characters, not gray, they arent good people, just not as bad as others. so when you said, roughly, "that some people are tired of morally good vs morally bad, they want gray" i started laughing because ive been begging for morally good characters to come back to vouge for years now. ive been awashed in characters being morally gray for over 2 decads now. i want good people to be the pov again, not perfect but good. you brought up avatar, the trio arent perfect people by any means, but they are good people. they have a strong sense of right and wrong, even if they fail at those standards some time. i love that. and i really am not seeing that be the case in most of the modern stories ive read. i think the closest i got to that was "james islington's licanius trilogy. first book being Shadow of what was Lost."

@Bookborn

Жыл бұрын

I’m with you in that I am ALWAYS down for a good character. Doesn’t mean perfection in anyway but like you said always striving to be good. I’ll always enjoy stories with morally gray characters but I like the good guys too! Great info on history. I specifically think it’s interesting to look at the change in sci fi after the Cold War. I’m going to have to look into that more - sci fi says so much about the state of our minds that that would be an interesting shift to witness

@Beard_Hood

Жыл бұрын

@@Bookborn oh absolutely, that's why I've been hoping that scifi takes a turn for the more hopeful because imo if it does it means humanity has taken a turn for the better. I think of it in terms of that saying "a society that is always talking about politics (politically charged things) is a sick society." I apply that to stories, when all the best selling stories are disasters, apocalypse... insert negitive story idea here... is a sign of a sick society.

Everything is just a trend, we want what we don't have and it will always have a resurgence imo.

Addressing your question, I think pop culture is always a response to what is going on in the world at the time. In my history class in college we talked about how super hero comics during the 1960s was a response to the Cold War. (For example, Spider-man being bitten by a radio active spider.) Another example is Star War, because after the Vietnam War, movies in general were becoming very bleak, and the public found Star Wars to be refreshing because it didn't continue the bleak message that other movies at the time were conveying.

@Bookborn

Жыл бұрын

Thank you for some context! I felt that it was true but just don’t have the knowledge to point out the specifics. I find it so interesting!

I would suggest a talk with AP from A Critical dragon. He recently asked the question: If old fantasy is all clear cut good vs evil, name 10 of the top of your head. Hinting at the fact this is more perception then anything else. Famous classic heroes like Conan, Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser etc... are also morally gray. I have the feeling that the grimdark trend is reaching its end. The popularity of Cozy fantasy but also more old school heroic fantasy like John Gwynne seems to point that way. Not saying it will disappear. It will just become one of the flavors. But the time that labeling something grimdark and that would automatically boost sales might be over.

@Aldric524

Жыл бұрын

I mean, Gwynne's world itself feels pretty grim dark. I loved both his main series. I think I only read the first book of his newest, but that world is pretty damned grim too. I guess if good ultimately triumphs you can argue it isn't grimdark? One of bookborn's entire arguments was morally gray was separate from grim dark, so the fact that Gwynne has less of those doesn't matter. :) All that said, I agree with most of what you said. Though I don't think grim dark is going anyway as a genre. People just wanted uplifting stuff during and shortly after the pandemic. I do think grim dark's popularity will wane a bit, but it's not going away.

I hope someone takes you up on that historical charting idea, I'd be very interested in hearing about it too. (And also wouldn't be the one to do the research)

I agree, we've always had morally gray characters, it's just that now they're more talked about. I think it was the recent success of Joe Abercrombie and how much he is talked about on Fantasy/scifi booktube that has led people down that rabbit hole.

I agree with your conclusion and the fact that there is much more explicit content these days to consume so that it ends up driving morally gray characters instead of "pure" good or "pure" evil. I think I'm a little older than you, because this is a time context thing, but I cannot imagine that Game of Thrones (or similar) would have gotten made in the 80's, even on HBO. That level of violence, brutality, nudity, etc. would have been hard for people to take on such a mass scale back then. That said, when done well, you get fantastic reads of characters that feel more realistic in how they approach situations. It's as Logen Ninefingers says, you need to be realistic about these things.

Your video is the first of its kind that I have seen, BUT I have less than a year of listening to you booktubers. Having said that, I think the discussion will be more fruitful if you defined the terms a bit more. For example, my understanding is that you can only have morally gray characters. As opposed to, I’ve understood grimdark to mean that it describes a type or genre within fantasy novels. Can you use grimdark to describe a person? Am I making sense? I do commend you on your video. It’s an interesting discussion to have, and I do think you’re right connecting GoT to more grimdark novels.

@Bookborn

Жыл бұрын

Ahh interesting. In general I’d say that grimdark does describe a story vs a character, which is why I think it incorrectly gets lumped in with morally gray, which usually describes characters (although not always, but I think it’s the most standard usage!) interesting addition to the conversation

Trends do influence what I read, because it affects which books are published. However, its easy to overestimate this effect. The availability of older books (as opposed to e.g. older model shoes) makes it easier to largely avoid a trend.

Love the Star Wars shirt! 😍🤓🥰

Bookborn: I don't like history Also bookborn: does in-depth discussion videos detailing history of a given book/film/tv genre going back to its inception Hah jk, you're great bookborn! I just thought this was funny

@Bookborn

Жыл бұрын

Lol ok this is fair. I guess I should say I’m not interested in *world history* a ton but the history of my interests I’ll read about forever 🤣

It seems to me that some of the trends emerging in fantasy are related to the new generations of readers discovering the genre. Young fans do not start with the classics, but with what's currently popular. So, it's no surprise that most of the younger readers don't know who Covenant or Kane are. They discovered morally gray heroes in Abercrombie's books.

Re: morally grey characters and explicit content: I do think there is something in how explicit content can make characters more grey, because we have the unpleasant consequences of their actions shown to us. With someone like Han Solo, sure, the guy's a smuggler, but what Han smuggles is never specified. If Star Wars was a more explicit story, and there were references to Han smuggling harmful/addictive drugs, or being involved in human/alien trafficking, there'd be reason for seeing the character as a whole lot grayer.

David Gemmell is sometimes referred to as a "father of grimdark" and his debut, Legend, was also released in 1984. As far as trends go, I hear a lot of people talking of their love for morally grey characters lately, but I also hear so many using it as the defining term for grimdark. I really dislike that, but I guess it's the sort of thing that happens when there's no clear mechanism for "officially" defining "grimdark."

@VicRibeiro777

Жыл бұрын

Interesting, I've not heard Gemmell referred to in those terms. I have heard him being referred to as a pioneer in "Heroic Fantasy". Although, in fairness, some of the winners of the Gemmell awards are actually more grimdark authors. Hmmm.

Hey, there are spoilers in this video!!!! Oh we covered that last week 🤪This is a great video. I never understood the morally gray hype train, for all the reasons you mentioned. I guess for Han Solo, his moral grayness depends on if you believe he shot first or not 🤔And I think you might have said morally gay at one point in the video, which might be a topic of its own sometime 😂

@Bookborn

Жыл бұрын

HAN SHOT FIRST! whew glad we got that out of the way 🤣 Lol I specifically will only spoil Star Wars, LOTR, and Harry Potter because I figure it’s on you at this point

Heyy. Please do a deep dive into Severus Snape. Thank you 😊 💓

I agree about the grimdark thing. I think what rubs people the wrong way is that in TV shows, grimdark elements are often added without really being needed - shoehorned in, basically, because " the boss says that viewers like grimdark these days". Even the GoT show added grimdark scenes that were not part of the books - just for some cheap shock value. If you just look at books, you're less likely to see such a trend.

@Bookborn

Жыл бұрын

Ugh HARD AGREE. sometimes I’m like “wow really threw that in there to get a mature rating huh?”

Love the first law series and the spin-offs

The conflation with Grimdark and feeling that the genre, and by extension morally grey main characters, is pervasive could at least partly be due to its permeation of pop-culture and critical analysis in general. There was a period starting around 2008 when non-fantasy grimdark TV shows and films just dominated the popular discourse, and they still tend to be the media offerings that everyone talks about. I hypothesize that the literary/film/TV critic circles tend to focus on these kinds of stories since they are often provocative and novel, and while they may not actually be numerically frequent or even representative of most creative output in films/TV/books, they're what stand out and what influencers talk about. It'd be interesting to see if there's a way to test that hypothesis. 🤔

Black Panther. I really took a deep dive into Afrofuturism and Afrofantasy after the movie. I had glancing knowledge of Octavia E. Butler and the imagery/lore of George Clinton/Parliment Funkadelic. so these concepts weren't new to me growing up, but it was more the realm of my parents. Know I'm like 'Gimme More!"

My mental image of the word Grim or Dark is literally any Dark Souls game 😅 but I guess the way is described here, would make sense. I only thought that Game Of Thrones/ASOIAF was gray at the beginning. Later on, I began to think of it more like Realism? In a way that the story doesn't care as much of morality, rather on the interests of the characters. Anyway, as you say, gray characters have always been there. Maybe it is that we are more conscious of it nowadays. By the way, because it caught my attention and now I've got curiosity, do you ever plan on reading ASOIAF? Interesting video 🤠

@Bookborn

Жыл бұрын

I initially haven’t read or watched GoT because I don’t like stories that have a lot of sexual assault / graphic sex descriptions. I’ve been convinced by some people that it’s more in the show than in the books so I may give the first book a try but I def won’t ever watch the show

@LadyAsteria58

Жыл бұрын

@@Bookborn ASOIAF is brutal but alot better than the Show. There's less of a "Rape as shock drama" portrayal than there was in the show (and it was far too much...) ASOIAF has some issues (George has some problems with food and sex) and a great deal of misconceptions about it but I do enjoy it's feminist themes. Those same feminist themes were taken out of the show of course because token toxic masculine women are apparently peak feminist to the writers.

I would love to know where the term "Cottage Core" came from, was it a trope/trend that has evolved from something else and how exactly is this "Cottage Core" trend/term different from others we could confuse it with?

If it's a trend, it's been going on since ancient greece, at least. Longest trend in history!

good discussion! HOWEVER, MA'AM, that breathing noise you do for every bullet point has got to go; that little inhale kept giving me the weirdest anxiety lmfao

@Bookborn

Жыл бұрын

It’s not a breathing noise - it’s a pencil writing noise :)

@orkosubmarine

Жыл бұрын

@@Bookborn :3

Could it be that the examples to give are the exception within the stories (and the main character) While the trend seems to be in these type of character becoming the main focus of stories and the other characters/stories are less good v evil. Hope thar makes sense.

I think that people who are talking about morally gray characters today, are talking about generally bad people who have bad motivation but sometimes end up thinking/doing the right thing for the wrong reason. It’s currently trendy because the idea of morals and ethics is offensive to a lot of people. I don’t think it’s a misconception that it’s more popular. There used to be good characters and evil characters, and then there were a few that were in the middle, who could be good for the right reason (for their personal right reason, like Han or Snape), but could also be bad or evil for their personal right reasons. Moral grayness is the equivalent of what we used to call complex characters or complicated characters. They knew that there was a right way and a wrong way (or good/bad way), and they frequently ignored that and did whatever suited their current motive. The modern version of morally gray characters tend to stem from a nihilistic view of the world, and they have no more motivation than that everything is bad so they might as well do what they want. Right and wrong, or good and bad, don’t exist or are relative. There’s no baseline for acceptable or unacceptable behavior because anything goes. And the majority of characters are this way. It’s very rare to find someone who is genuinely a good person, because the modern generation views that as boring and unrealistic. Its why modern people tend to hate Superman, and replace him with horrible people like Omni-Man. It’s also now a selling point/marketing ploy, so authors want to make sure you know that their characters are unethical and jaded - morally gray. So yes, there has definitely been a rise in the numbers, and it correlates to a lack of belief in anything higher than yourself, or a belief that being a genuinely good person is a bad thing and makes you blind to the world around you. And unfortunately, it’s not just in literature. It’s in every form of media. There are no good guys and bad guys anymore. There are only ever morally gray, selfishly-motivated people. It’s gotten to where if you see a good character in a show/movie, you keep waiting for the other shoe to fall, for their true nature to be revealed. Because no one can really be good.

In the 1970's and 1980's there was a 'trend' of fantasy comedy. I am thinking of Piers Anthony (Xanth), Terry Pratchett, Robert Lynn Asprin (Thieves' World). I think more recent work such as Scott Lynch's work could/should be put in there as well. Perhaps you could do a video !

@Aldric524

Жыл бұрын

Scott Lynch has some humor, but it's not nearly over the top as Anthony/Asprin, those two were like "Dumb and Dumber" for books. Pratchett was in a league of his own, but Lynch is also nowhere near absurdist humor. Oh well, we can agree to disagree.

@donaldcatanzaro5318

Жыл бұрын

@@Aldric524 oh I AGREE!

On the right track! Han! And Andor! Good guys committing d'oh morally grey acts to win or survive or fight the evil bad guys yet the don't harm good innocent people. Great extemporaneous video! So the kind of pinpoint start of the term "grimdark" mentioned coincides with the same year as the now coined Great Recession! Not good times economically on so many levels! That's as far as my history goes! And ASOIAF/GOT was inspired I think by the English/British War of the Roses? There's also I understand a sort of grim and dark novel series that booktubers know...googled "Asian dark fantasy war, RF Kuang"? The Poppy War! That's the one! A non-medieval fantasy setting? What of the ultimate grey character? Gandalf the Grey* The categorical differentiation of types of characters is on point, Bookborn! Thinking of 1986, modern history politically fraught around the world? Cold War, civil wars...?

In my opinion what makes a good story is being as quickly as possible sucked into the character the plot for the premise within the first 100 page's

I love your content. Thank you for taking the time/effort to do this. I often feel like I'm in the minority, because although I enjoy complex characters and stories, I am getting a bit tired of everything seeming to need to be 'edgy'. This has directly impacted how much I've been reading lately. Maybe I'm an outlier but whenever the world seems dark and difficult, I would rather read something a bit more hopeful. Because so much popular fantasy currently seems so dark, I've been reading a lot less.

@Bookborn

Жыл бұрын

I’m actually totally with you. It’s the reason why even though I love Abercrombie I can’t make his type of books the main kind I read, and it’s why time and time again I’m so attracted to sandersons writings; in the end, I love hopeful stories with hopeful characters.

@pjalexander_author

Жыл бұрын

Exactly! It's also why i get frustrated with the Star Wars fandom constantly pushing the franchise to be dark and edgy. Look, I love The Empire Strikes Back as much as anyone, but Lucas always said the stories are about hope and are meant to be uplifting. The original film was meant to be a joyous relief from dark times. There's plenty of dark stuff out there without changing Star Wars from what it's supposed to be! Okay I'm done ranting. 😂

I love Abercrombie's work but I think that Grimdark isn't quite accurate for First Law. I feel Logen was telling us the truth all the time "You have to be realistic" and that the series is just parallel to real events, just in a world with magic. I do agree that morally gray characters have always existed.

The massive amount of morally grey character in ancient greece and egypt proves that those type of character always existed in fictions.

@Bookborn

Жыл бұрын

Yeah I’m really mad I didn’t bring up Greek myths! Like those heroes were messed up 🤣

So how dark should a book be to be called Grimdark? Is there a definition for it?

@Bookborn

Жыл бұрын

I actually had a live video that covered this a bit with a the Fantasy Nuttwork! There is an issue with grimdark in that nobody knows the definition lol. For me grimdark lacks hope, which mean it’s dark by nature but doesn’t have to be gruesome. A lot of people disagree though!

@MatildaTheBookDragon

Жыл бұрын

@@Bookborn thanks for answering! Doesn't sounds easy then to answer that 😅😅 the darkest ive read was actually a YA series (!) Saaba Tahirs series it was just too much people dying and so cruel, extremely little hope whatsoever. ASOIAF is really dark too and gave me nightmares once but felt more realistic and definitely has hope. Mistborn gave me the most Nightmares though ( a specific gruesome scene ) but im not reading any of those series again! 🥲

👌

Morally grey characters have been around forever, like Heracles is the easiest ancient example, I mean the word hero comes from his name, because he did crazy heroic things and was loved by a lot of people. But he killed his own kids (and wife, in some tellings she lives in some she dies) in a fit of rage, he raped a lot of people, he killed a lot of innocent people. He was in his element in fights and heroic battle with monsters, he was bad at being a normal person.

@Bookborn

Жыл бұрын

Greek heroes are the epitome of morally gray. It’s literally been around since the beginning of story telling!

I felt like Grimdark had it’s highpoint between 2010 and 2015. Since the high magic Fantasy like Sanderson was on the rise again imo. But I don’t read much grimdark except for Warhammer 40k which isn’t really grimdark (the world is but most characters aren’t), so I don’t think I can really judge it.

a trend i do not like : less dragons. i want dragons who burn cities, who runs the world; Bring back the dragons.

@Bookborn

Жыл бұрын

Many people would agree with you 🤣

Have you watched The Last Of Us? Highly recommended, if you haven't. Main character in that definitely deserves the 'morally grey' epithet, though I'm sure he's on the side of good, something that will be made more explicit as the show progresses.

@juanmorales9738

Жыл бұрын

I kind of see Joel right now as a villain. By his own admission, he has killed innocent people to survive. That’s like saying someone comes and kills you or me and takes our wallets and when caught says I was just trying to survive. That’s not to say he can’t love. The worse person most likely has someone in their lives they love. But I hope that Joel’s relationship with Ellie may change him.

@Bookborn

Жыл бұрын

Currently watching! Only seen three episodes. Great TV although idk if my anxiety can handle it 🤣🤣

Just a minor question, cozy fantasy, now that's the new term for me. Could someone share an example of some titles to lookup to know what it exemplifies? Thank you m

@Bookborn

Жыл бұрын

Hey! So a very popular one right now is “Legends and Lattes” by Travis Baldree. You could also try the novella “A Psalm for the Wild Built” by Becky Chambers. Or, “Small Miracles” by Olivia Atwater. Cozy fantasy is categorized by fantasy that doesn’t involve huge world-changing storylines or wars, but rather focuses on magic in the day-to-day, smaller-scale stories.

@jamesomeara2329

Жыл бұрын

@@Bookborn Thank you. Will have to look these up. You have given me a summer list outside of this Wings of Fire series. Cool.

If you get any response of people commenting trends being correlative with history, please make a video out of that 🙏🏽

Morally gray characters have been around for as long as people have been telling stories. Just look at the ancient Greek myths, for example. Most of the characters in them are morally gray, even the great heroes. I think it's just that we live in an era where everything has to have a label and people are always chasing trends trying to cash in on them while they're hot.

@Bookborn

Жыл бұрын

Agreed. The label is something that I find so interesting … the way we always must put things in a box and relate them to other things that came before it

Morally grey has been around since the beginning - think Achilles or Odysseus, neither of whom are particularly good people. Fantasy, as a marketing phenomenon, got dominated for a while by Tolkien clones, D&D, and video game narratives. That’s what the modern trends are a reaction against. But there have always been things that stand outside of that. Thomas Covenant was no saint. David Gemmell’s heroic characters are more complex than pure good/evil. Conan is troubling and Solomon Kane even worse. Sevarian from the Book of the New Sun is more than a little problematic, and in my opinion, so is Paul Atriedes from Dune. A lot of peoples’ appraisal of the new trends stems largely from their myopia about what’s come before.

@Bookborn

Жыл бұрын

Agreed; but I also think it has a lot to do with publishers chasing something that’s successful - so we get a lot of clones pushed around similar times if it’s selling well

Robin Hobb is grimdark???

@Bookborn

Жыл бұрын

Like the ultimate grimdark?? She’s not explicit but her stories are incredibly depressing Lmao

@bstark94

Жыл бұрын

@@Bookborn haha, no doubt her writing is tragic and devastating, but it feels different to me than Abercrombie, GRRM, etc...which is what grimdark feels like to me

rise in grimdark in 2008 may have something to do with the financial crisis.

Maybe a hot take but, I don’t think Snape is even morally grey, he’s just a bad person who ended up sort of on the good guys side lol.

@Bookborn

Жыл бұрын

Ok are you me (for real it drives me insane how everyone forgets what a bad person he was. Not saying he wasn’t complicated but like he’s not a hero lmao)

Your timeline is wrong! "Grim Dark", though not labled that way started with Micheal Moorcocks "Elric of Melniboné" 1961, followed by his other character Corum. Next up is Karl Edward Wagners most famous sort of anti-hero "Kane" published first 1970. These where the first to turn the Fantasy/Sword&Sorcery genre upside down with their pessimistic, hopeless and unsocial characters. These tropes make the difference between classic Sowrd & Sorcery figures like mentioned Conan the Barbarian or Fafrd ect. In general I think it's always hard to define "new" trends and or supposed genres, the more genres we have the more confusing it gets. Nothing get's as grim as Elric of Melniboné accidently stabbing his wife with his sword that sucks out her soul because it's a demon sword. No character will be more morally grey as Wagners "Kane", the immortal, god-defying wizard-warrior who endlessly travels the world to seek something that can kill him. And then again, "morally grey" as a matter of fact is just a normal person. We need to understand that the idea of a morally super-correct person comes from orthodox religions like Christendom and or Islam that pursue an ultra-absolut that is not just unreal but stupid. As you already said, "morally grey" chracters go back in time to the very beginning of mythology. But even if we look at classic stories like "Die Nibelungen" we encounter the character of "Siegfried" a man labeled as "hero". Today people have a much different understanding of what a hero is then what the term actually stands for. People believe that a "hero" is aka as a selfless, morally correct, absolut-good person. That is nonesense. The classic definition of a hero is a man who is doing outstanding achievments. "Siegfried" is a classic example because he is indeed a cheater, liar and self-obsessed. But we can also take a look at classic Iceland Sagas with many famous figures like "Asmund Kappabani". "Asmund Kappabani" was regarded an outstanding man, a hero?, that's why he got his second name "Kappa-Bani" meaning sort of "slayer of heroes" because Asmund was real good at fighting. I think the term "Grimdark" is just another incarnation of "Sword & Sorcery" including some Sci-Fi like Warhammer. ..... because people must always create new genres. Trends in Fantasy ... hmm. Everything Robert Ervin Howard wrote back in the 1930 became a trend .... 20-30 years later but why I couldn't possibly say. But what I can point out is why "Lord of the Rings" became such a huge successe 20 years after it's first release. After Dell books released the legendary Conan the Barbarian series with it's beyond legendary paitings by outstanding artist Frank Farzetta the whole of the Fantasy genre was lifted from the grave again. The problem was just that most of the Fantasy released in the 60s and 70s falls in the category of ... pff... "grimdark" aka Sword & Sorcery. The 60s and 70s as we all know have been a very dark time in America and that's were Tolkien came along with his 900 pages of escape reading. Though dark in theme the LotR has an overall positive feel unlike the currant Fantasy at that time, which is the true reason why it became so succsesful. And with the succsess came the copy-cats and with the copy-cats came the Tolkien-myths.

@Thecatladybooknook_PennyD

Жыл бұрын

Brilliant!!! Yes!

@corneliusdobeneck4081

Жыл бұрын

@@Thecatladybooknook_PennyD Thanks. Always try to keep my messed up brain in line and not wonder off to far. :D

Of course morally grey characters are a trend. Did you see that Amleth guy in the Northman? No way a character like that would have been written 20 years ago! /s

@chather

Жыл бұрын

Paul Atreides from Dune.

@thrawncaedusl717

Жыл бұрын

@@chather the point of my comment was that Amleth is from a story like literally a thousand years old. Grimdark is nothing new, if anything the more optimistic fantasy is rarer throughout history.

You haven't read ASOIAF?! Missing out!

@Bookborn

Жыл бұрын

I don’t like stories that revolve around many plot lines with sexual assault, which is why I’ve refrained so far!

Most people are morally gray. They may not realize that they are, but they are. This is not new to novels. Think about the Count of Monte Cristo. The main character is morally grey! I’m sure that there are many other characters in older books. Grimdark is just a fancy way of saying violent centered storytelling.

@Thecatladybooknook_PennyD

Жыл бұрын

THIS!!!

Yes, Game of Thrones and Expanse ruined all sff media. New books and tv shows should come with Prozac.

The real world is "morally gray".....pretty much every person on earth is "morally gray" to some extent, so why should fictional characters not be so? That makes no sense.

What characters are you referring to in GOT as morally grey because you just say characters but not any specific characters lol

@Bookborn

Жыл бұрын

It’s the general consensus that about every character in GoT is morally gray lol

@josiahdoddema3265

Жыл бұрын

@@Bookborn alrighty you’ve got me there lol their is maybe like 3 or 4 characters that I can see as just morally good

Yes, morally grey characters aren’t new at all

Let me double check: you're a fantasy genre fan and critic/reviewer, who never read nor watched GoT, AND history was your least favorite subject? Huh. That's... new 😅

@Bookborn

Жыл бұрын

I haven't read or watched GOT for personal reasons: I don't like sexual assault as a main storyline, and I've heard from several people that it's frequently used as a plot point :) As for history being my least favorite subject - I was much more a math girl, and tons of engineering/math/science nerds are fantasy fans, so I don't think that's that surprising!