I agree, I used to play really tame decks with my friend group because the minute I interacted with their board (friend played a voltron zur the enchanter deck) they would pout and scoop the game. I started playing at my local LGS on commander nights and saw that everyone runs interaction and there wasn't as much moaning. Later when my friends and I played online with randos they realized that their decks were too low level to even be considered casual.

I used to be like this and I feel bad at it. In college I couldn't beat a buddy of mine because he was in all actually, a really good deck builder. So I wrongly bitched. Now if I lose, I just say gg and shuffle up for the next game. Jordan, if you ever see this. I'm really sorry bud. You were a great player, I was just a salty bitch.

@thetrinketmage

7 ай бұрын

Hey we all can learn and grow as a person!

@Jundsac

7 ай бұрын

I respect you for knowing when you were wrong, based comment

Also wanted to say, just recently discovered your channel, but you're putting out some of the best, easily digestable commander content on KZread, keep up the great work!

@thetrinketmage

4 ай бұрын

Thank you so much! Hopefully you will like all the videos I have coming up!

@FightinTheGorlax

4 ай бұрын

@@thetrinketmage I'll keep an eye out for them, looking forward to it!

If anyone tries to come at me with that energy, I tell them to up their removal game. Ive had someone scoop to me dropping Gisa Glorious Resurrector because their deck was based on death triggers. If your deck folds to a single creature and you dont run enough creature removal, your deck sucks and its on you to get it to a decent level. Don't expect people to actively make their decks bad because you can't be bothered to "eat your vegetables" while brewing

@thetrinketmage

4 ай бұрын

I love the eat your veggies analogy I should’ve used it in the video!

Man this is exactly like my play group. They love to go 100% in on their themes and play no interaction unless it fits perfectly. I basically can't play hydras, or token doublers because my friends just have no ways to deal with them. Also no mill or discard. I have a "rat cage" folder for my decks that win too easy, which even has bird tribal in it because they can't deal with so many flyers 😭

@thetrinketmage

2 ай бұрын

A tough situation to be in! Depending on the group you could just play normally and win until they play interaction. Or play something super jank

Hmm, I've been tossing this idea around in my mind for a bit and I'd love to hear your thoughts, TM. The idea is that feelbads come from several factors, including the timing of the resource chain. The resource chain may look something (very generally) like this: Cards in library -> Cards in hand -> Cards on the stack -> Cards resolved -> Cards resolving an activated or triggered ability -> Combat. The later in this chain the card gets removed, the better it feels because the player got to experience more game actions with that card. For example, Sword2Plowing and Old Gnawbone before it damages feels just about as fair as interaction gets but Mill feels like opportunity being lost. I think Discard and Sacrifice themes feel unfair because they occur early in the resource chain. Sac feeling early perhaps only because creatures feel early in the resource chain due to their commanlity. Not that Butcher is too powerful, necessarily, but because the playpattern reduces players' experiences. Thoughts?

@thetrinketmage

12 күн бұрын

It’s definitely interesting but I wonder how much of a difference it makes. Even if we assume people are less salty about instant speed interaction cause they were close to doing a thing is it really that much less than a sorcery speed removal spell? I’m not sure it’s relevant enough

@nealallen2061

12 күн бұрын

@@thetrinketmage Mechanically it could be even irrelevant. But socially it can help empathize or facilitate enjoyable new-player experiences.

I live in Perú and we EDH players from all over Latin America we all have this ongoing joke about North American EDH players being a bunch of entitled crybabies. Most people in Latin American stores play at a very high level due to the scarcity of more niche cards in our countries so we tend to optimize as much as we can also because since the game is three, five or even ten times as expensive for us, most players can't afford to have more than 2 o 3 decks at a time so people here are used to games being fast paced and full of threats and interaction. Whenever we see stories like these, we can't stop but laugh our butts off, most people in Reddit seem like they wouldn't stand more than five minutes in a Latin American LGS.

@thetrinketmage

4 ай бұрын

That’s pretty funny, I didn’t know that! I’d love to go to a game store in Perú one day

@ZeratoGZ

4 ай бұрын

@@thetrinketmage I'm pretty sure you'd love the experience, I've been to almost all the game stores in my city (Lima) and never have I ever heard someone complaining about a certain strategy or someone's deck unless a new player comes with a precon and one of the pubstompers tries to ruin the new guys day, then everyone gangs on the pubstomper for being a bully (in a friendly way of course). Most people here know that if you want to play super casual, you just do that at home with your friends, but if you go to a game store here is to play for real.

The entitlement be crazy frfr

@Jundsac

7 ай бұрын

It's kinda crazy that the card under fire here is a 7 mana creature with 4 toughness that does almost nothing on it's own.

@thetrinketmage

7 ай бұрын

Yea this Reddit post threw me for a loop

I had such a game the other night. 2 decks that looked like they were 17 wincons from moxfield primers stapled together on a pair of commanders off the first page of EDHrec losing their minds at me and another deck at the table for stopping 6 wins in a row. Getting FURIOUS because we wouldn't let them get infinite mana. A guy complained about me ghost quartering his triland (a card I run to offset the feelsbad of getting stripmined) HIMSELF milling a strip mine off the top. Guy going "oh this is my fun voting tivit deck" getting mad that dauntless dismantler brought his time sieve in tapped. A guy pissing and moaning about getting his mana vault popped in a brago deck. Its not just new players and low-power players. Some people pile their decks high with powerful cards, well-known combos, and best-in-class commanders just to fail to put in enough lands, fold to a hatebear because they have no removal, and pout when you hit them with a Negate.

Man I'm blessed that people in my LGS allow any deck to shine, brought my Urza and Eriette deck there and no one complained. Good plays, good threat assessment, was about to win Turn 4 Urza and one dude knew and read my plays. Was awesome, I hope more people are like this.

I could not agree more. I play mostly mid-level decks... janky but bolstered with a few cards. You would not believe how many times someone has said "that card makes any deck a 9", or complained that I am playing counters in a mono blue deck. For the most part, my decks have a below average win ratio, but people still get butt-hurt the moment a powerful effect is played. The ones that really bother me are people who act like those who have expensive old cards should take them out of their decks because other players can't afford them (or were not around when they were affordable).

my group we don't have these issues. we play some really bad decks and some really good decks. but we do not play the same deck all night unless its a new deck to figure out what to switch up. a bunch of us have like 10 or more decks i got over 25 i just made 2 new decks in the past 2 weeks. it was a nice change from my regular decks.

Honestly, I feel like there isn’t anything wrong with asking your play group not to play something, provided that everyone goes along with it (or at least, everyone for whom it would be a problematic card; if you want to to put Thassa’s Oracle into your Thassa, Deep-Dwelling deck because it fits the lore, without any of the accompanying deck tech to actually make it your primary win-con, that’s not an issue), and everyone discusses things beforehand. Sometimes your playgroup is into Battlecruiser magic, with huge, overcosted creatures, giant, flashy spells with weird effects, and limited interaction. There is nothing wrong with this. Hell, I enjoy playing like this sometimes. And in this case, not wanting to deal with Sarah’s Esper control deck, which has more removal and counterspells than it does creatures, and which has a game plan primarily of “step 1. use removal and counterspells to survive until I can tutor for necropotence step 2. if someone else looks like they might win, use supreme verdict and other board wipes until they stop being being a threat, then move to step 3: use necropotence to fuel some degenerate combo, win.” There is nothing wrong with that sort of deck per se, but it’s entirely reasonable to not want to have it at your playgroup. A key here is that you need to actually make those sort of rules or preferences clear in advance if possible, and communicate openly and directly. Don’t just say “this is casual, don’t bring a cEDH deck”, that tells people very little and means different things to different people. Don’t say “no combos”, when you really mean “please don’t bring infinite combos as your wincon”, or vice versa, don’t just say “X is unfair, it’s cEDH level broken, stop playing it” when what you really mean is “Damnit Chett, your Urza Lord High Artificer stax deck makes it so nobody but you can do anything, all of us got together to actually play our own fun stuff, not watch you tap and untap your board a billion times each turn, and when you continue to play stuff like this, not only does it diminish everyone else’s enjoyment of the game, it drastically increases the likelihood that somebody here will snap and either piss in your Mountain Dew or else violently shove your life counter, your deck box, your sleeves featuring scantily clad anime girls, and your deck itself, down your throat until you choke to death, before burying you in a unmarked grave alongside your playsets of Winter Orb and Stasis.” In turn, players should actually describe and explain what their deck does, and what it’s main wincons are, with as much honesty as possible, instead of just giving it a 7/10 and moving on. If your deck has reliably hated stuff in it, don’t downplay that just because you want a chance to use it, Don’t say “I’m playing a group hug/political control deck” when what you really mean is “My sole win conditions consist of either dragging the game out until the inevitable heat-death of the universe consumes us all, because I am bad at playing to win, or else hoping to god that my opponents kill each other for me, because I sure don’t have a plan for doing that myself.” Most players I know will happily let you play your broken or overpowered/annoying deck so long as you actually ask first, and make it clear up front that it’s super-powerful/annoying/whatever. This goes more for things capable of actually winning quickly, however; plenty of people will try their hand at beating your powerful deck so long as you actually beat them quickly so you can play a more fair game after, rather than dragging out the game for an hour. My rule of thumb is nothing can be banned until everyone’s played against it a few times, so everyone can get as accurate a sense of the card’s power/what the card does as possible. At this point, let the group discuss if they want to continue playing with it. I also find that having other people test out the deck themselves can sometimes help, and it gives you a better perspective on the card’s power, and helps reduce the bias that comes with having the card be used against you.

I've never asked someone to change their deck, but the one time I was extremely annoyed was when this person printed off $500+ in proxies and threw them all in their deck to make it cEDH level, while the rest of us were just casual.

@ryftedmage1404

7 ай бұрын

Buddy of mine did this too and it always became a game of “I need to kill him as fast as I can” which wasn’t fun for me or him. It was just what I needed to do or else he would win for like the 100th time in a row. We all started playing on untap tho so that made it easier for everyone to have nutty cedh decks

@Morgan-qk6ml

7 ай бұрын

me nad my friend to this often, though we keep it as a contained arms race. was able to get a turn four jin gitatixas core augur out on turn for with herald of invasion rona

@AlexOvTheAbyss

7 ай бұрын

@@Morgan-qk6ml If everyone is doing it, I don't see any issue with it. Situation I was in was that we were all pretty casual, and they just showed up with this as their only deck, which was annoying as hell.

i built a dina deck out of MOM chaff cards and some really good pulls with two sheoldreds. brought it to locals and was told "just because i can, doesnt mean i should. took it apart. nowadays i built it back up worse because fuck them, i want it to cause pain

The only time i will have a problem with someones deck is if its intentionally made to be a dick head deck. All counters and ways to give yourself protection and steal people’s stuff and drag the game on forever without having any way of winning.

I've mostly avoided this, but it does suck. What I have encountered that is similar is when someone will build up a really strong board, but when you are about to board wipe, the complain and/or plead, saying if you do that, their deck will just fold and they'll be out of the game. Again, it's players not building a good enough deck, and that's not my fault, it is theirs. If your commander deck cannot withstand one board wipe, same as if it can't withstand one Butcher... well you built a bad deck, don't really know what to tell you.

As per usual, if you choose to build your deck with 0 interaction, don't complain when you get styled on

I have a very funny situation going on in my playgroup atm, a friend of mine has 4 decks; Malcom/Dargo, Magda, Shurikai, and recently Atla Palani. Now I wouldn't have issue with these usually, except for the fact they they pump these 'casual' decks full of powerful stuff, but are pretty bad at actually making decks, which means any decks that are in theory on level with them (og Aatraxa, Mono Green Selvala, and Yoshimaru/Keleth) absolutely demolish them, while our weaker (slightly/unaltered precons, rakdos rats, Yurlock land hate, Deena aristocrats) decks just can't keep up with the pure power their commanders alone produces. The entire group has practically been begging them to either build a deck that uses a less powerful commander as a base, or actually upgrade their existing decks to compete with our better ones, preferably both.

@xaffe7893

4 ай бұрын

I have the same problem, the thing is that we get a little salty because of the more powerful decks. It's hard to solve the situation to be honest. Any tips??

@mose9629

4 ай бұрын

@@xaffe7893 sorry for getting back so late, but from what I've seen its kind of just a matter of sitting down and having a conversation. If the person in question just refuses to cooperate (unfortunately like my friend is) then there isn't much you can do. Our usual go to at this point is just letting them borrow their choice of our other decks, as then we at least know it'll be an even game, and they've kind of dropped off playing a bit, so it's been less of a problem.

bearscape is like 50 cents now and hits all artifacts and enchantments. Gives them a bear so it's also cute. Play removal and stop complaining that someone built their deck well folks.

"I don't mean dropping $1000 on a deck" Do you mean on a mana base?

I think reflecting on how much interaction is in your deck should be a first step, however: at the end of the day it's still good to speak out after a game. "Dies to removal" is not always a valid argument, and just saying "build better decks" can lead to power escalation which denies low power players a chance to enjoy the game (not saying they take priority over everyone else). In the first example if feels a bit like a double standard since other decks were running it, and i feel like they should be held to it too. Like anything else rule 0 based, this should be an ongoing discussion with your local playgroup.

@thetrinketmage

7 ай бұрын

Totally it is a nuanced discussion but I feel like the cases where removal wasn’t the answer are few and far between

@NibbleMe

7 ай бұрын

@thetrinketmage that's a fair suggestion if the group is aiming for a more interactive experience. A lotta players are chill with board wipes, spot removal and value pieces but repeatable resource denial should always be handled with care. Even if a player runs removal, there is never a guarantee they'll get it at the right time, especially after it may have locked combat focused/creature meta group out of the ability to respond. In the example listed, the player had repeatable ways to get it back too. A common compromise I see which can address this is to allow players to sideboard out potentially problematic cards if you think it'll dominate the game.

@Jundsac

7 ай бұрын

@@NibbleMe Even if it was being reanimated repeatedly, it's really surprising to me that people can't handle the Butcher. Was there an Ashnod's Altar and a Bitterblossom sitting next to it? Cuz those are excellent targets for removal. In my opinion, people complaining about removal creates an unhealthy solitaire meta, I would like to hear your thoughts on what makes sense to veto and not veto. In my opinion, in playgroups, people should veto specific cards and not entire strategies, and it can be an ongoing discussion as needed. In game stores with random players, Rule 0 shouldn't be used at all unless the entire group can come to a consensus, but overall it leads the way to manipulation and game shark tactics which I think don't belong in Magic. For example, I played a number of games in which I reanimated or hard casted a Sire of Insanity very early in the game, and my friends all scooped immediately. They asked me to stop playing it, so I did, but I think there are 2 important takeaways; 1. Sire is a particularly heinous card and it actively prevents interacting with it 2. The discussion was centered on Sire alone and not all cards that discard (which are still mean but don't instantly ruin/win the game on resolution)

I agree with everything you said 💯 😅

Butcher is to strong. It beats avacyn. It's literally unbeatable. Lol

@Jundsac

7 ай бұрын

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic cuz there's no verbal cues in text

@alaraplatt8104

7 ай бұрын

gonna assume they're being sarcastic about a card that folds to anything that exiles

@thetrinketmage

7 ай бұрын

I think they are being sarcastic

This problem is always going to be a thing because at the end of the game, Commander players really just want to play a board game and no matter what there's always gonna be some whiny pissbaby who gets mad that you stopped his 5 card combo with a counterspell.

be the change you want to see in cdh. shows a picture of a man with a record of sexual assaults. No sir i dont think i wanna be that change. there seems to be enough of that to go around.

@thetrinketmage

7 ай бұрын

I wasn’t trying to make a statement with that. But “be the change you want to see in the world” is a quote often attributed to him. That’s all I was referring too. Honestly not that familiar with his life

@vivianvicious

7 ай бұрын

Sorry if i didnt come off as joking. and yes gandi was kinda a shitty person if you look into his history. i was just making a joke about gandi being a pos. your video is good and points are valid. sorry if i seem like i was doing anything but roasting the dickhead that was pushed on us as kids then to later find out he was a pile of garbage lol.@@thetrinketmage