I think what compounds this issue is what people may personally look for in a specific shmup too. You'll have the tourists who will blast through it with continues and never play again, people who want to aim for 1CCs or other self imposed challenges and people who will grind out scores. This ability to play shmups (and arcade games in general) in a variety of different ways is a genuine strength of the genre that often gets overlooked, but it's also probably the primary reason why there's so much discourse over how much they're "worth". Even if you're a fan of shmups, you'll probably think some games under the umbrella of the same developer you love are "worth" more than others because of how you engage with their systems, art direction, setting, music and so on - subjective qualities that are likely the biggest driving factors behind whether you dump tens, hundreds or a thousand hours into a specific game.

@TheElectricUnderground

3 жыл бұрын

That's exactly right. I think if people stop looking at the genre as a 20 minute romp full of credit feeding and look at it like a massive pile of meaningful game play efficiently squeezed into a 20 minute session that you can repeat and practice for decades, the value proposition really changes a lot ha. This is why I think there is such a thriving environment for the genre collecting wise, even among players. If any genre is worth spending thousands of dollars on, it's definitely shmups.

I agree 100% I would pay 60$ for Ketsui or Battle Garegga on steam or other platform. I'm PC player and emulation is only way to go for me.

@TheElectricUnderground

3 жыл бұрын

I would say that it might be time to look into picking up a ps4, maybe not quiet yet but I hope we see a big fat price drop on the ps4 soon and shmup players can start snatching them up for cheap. There's just so many quality shmup exclusives on there at this point.

@4daearz513

3 жыл бұрын

@@TheElectricUnderground I don't think that physical copies of M2ShotTriggers will drop in terms of price. Or you are speaking about digital versions?

@andy7666

3 жыл бұрын

@@4daearz513 Yeah, some of them are getting harder to buy now. I had to get a Korean physical copy of Battle Garegga. In that case it would probably wise to buy the games now, console later if money is an issue. Physical shmups hold their value, they generally go up in fact as you know. Digital are affordable but its a shame to see them have the same price as physical sometimes.

I have no problem with prices in this genre for exactly the time reasons you mentioned. Even Radiant Silvergun at $250 isn't a bad buy compared to a movie blu ray. The waters get muddied because of FTP FPSes that people can play for hundreds of hours with little to no outlay. Then there's the Hamster ACA stuff - online leaderboards, save state (singular), caravan modes, multiple region versions...for like $5. And there's tons of it. But even still, I paid ~$80 a piece to import the ShotTriggers titles, and would happily do it again.

@TheElectricUnderground

3 жыл бұрын

sort of a tangent, but I have seriously considered starting an online petition (and not a meme one) to get hamster to add more save state slots to their ACA releases. 1 Save State ... Why ... WHY?!!

@theninjararar

Жыл бұрын

some people rewatch movies a lot though...

Very well argued points. I agree that many shmups are way under priced. So much time and heart goes into many of these games that they should cost a whole lot more then most of them do.

@TheElectricUnderground

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah i know. I'm a pretty cheap dude and even I feel a bit guilty at time at some of the prices I get away with paying for these games, whereas some average Nintendo game will hold it's sale value for years.

For me JRPGs and Shmups are worth more than most other games, I don't mind plopping down $80-$100 for some if I have to and I live in a low income country where the average person makes $500 a month. A month ago or so I paid around over $80 for Macross Scrambled Valkyrie on SNES and don't regret it one bit. On Monday I paid around the same price for Fast Striker on Vita because I somehow missed there was a physical release of the game for Vita and I REALLY wanted to own it physically.

@TheElectricUnderground

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah that is a great point actually, depending on where you are in the world your view of price points is going to vary greatly. It sounds like in your region paying around $100 for a game is a serious commitment! It's a pretty serious commitment for me as well money wise, but luckily I don't buy games that often these days so it can be done every other month or so. That being said, whenever I need to review a shmup that's newer and a bit pricier, I do feel it hit the wallet a bit ha.

I think one question that is almost always missing from any review or discussion about a game is "How bad do you want it?" We always argue about the time to cost metrics, value of the experience, the game feel, the games rarity and so on but we hardly ever do the most straightforward thing and ask the consumer themselves how much they actually want that product? I think no one actually wants to ask that question because it is then asking the game to justify its existance. What has it got as a game that will make people want to play it over everything else out there? As a competitive smash player I can say with confidence that Icon's Combat Arena is a game which did nothing to justify its existance and should have never been made. How much do I want it? I want it so little I wouldn't even play it had it been gifted to me. I play and collect trading card games so "How bad do you want it?" is always the biggest question when buying any card because at the end of the day it is all mass produced cardboard. Right now there are certain cards I want but not so badly that I would fork up the asking price for them. When the pandemic eventually ends and I want to enter a regional or national tournament then maybe my want will shift to make those prices acceptible to me. How badly we want something is often assumed by the critic "If you're interested then get it when it is on sale" etc. If I'm interested then I'll get it when I want it most and when I want it most could be triggered by an almost uncountable number of factors. This is why the AAA gaming and Hollywood hype machines have an equal or bigger promotional budget than the products creation themselves; they need to make people want these products so badly that they will hand over their money in some form regardless of if it is full price or discounted (the former is preferred of course). With shmups I often only discover how much I "wanted" a game after I have already gotten my hands on it and played it. This is a problem for the genre as a whole: it struggles to make people have a high want for it unless they have already played those games and become incredibly invested in them (exceptions being games like Futari which have endless priase thrown on them). We see it all the time, first it's Garegga on emulator, then PS4 and eventually PCB. The more the enthusiast plays the more their want for the item increases at which point they finally hit that threshold where there is no such thing as too much. A game review *cannot* measure or define the readers level of want, it can help slightly inflate or deflate a pre-existing interest; they can also help a person validate their own confrimation bias (or in your case with Zero-Div / R-Type Final 2 go against it which makes them angry). I have been back and forth with myself over the years when it comes to the value of the games I buy but once I relaise I am spending equal or higher amounts on single trading cards the whole thing kinda becomes moot to me. The purchase is justified by my own level of desire for it and nothing more. I think it is fine for M2 Shot Triggers to put out these $60 PS4 ports, the issue isn't the costs themselves but getting enough people in the know about the games and genre that they can have that want for such a product in the first place.

@TheElectricUnderground

3 жыл бұрын

This is a great point. Funnily enough I do think this question of how much the players want the games is reflected in the price disparity that we see right now. For really dedicated fans of the genre, myself included, I get incredibly hype for releases that look awesome (like SDOJ on EXA or the new Aleste game) and am more then happy to pay full price for these releases, except I can't for the EXA stuff since it's sooo expensive ha. So I think for fans of the genre shmups are very effective at getting people to really desire them and spend an impressive amount of money to get them. It's the more general consumer fanbase that it's harder for the genre to appeal to initially. It's an age old problem ha. Though I do think value over volume in upcoming releases is a good place to start.

i already talked about this in the "are shmups dead?" video but i think the reason devs inflate playtime is to let people make more videos about their games. if a game is 100 hours long and some guy is doing a let's play, that's a lot of parts, but shmups are only 20-40 minutes, so let's players will make just one part and then move onto the next game. even if it's a 1cc or wr journey or whatever, most people wouldn't wanna watch players play the same couple minutes over and over again

@TheElectricUnderground

3 жыл бұрын

That is very interesting, yes there s this whole other ecosystem with lets plays and everything that devs are starting to cater to as well. Shmups could make great let's play content theotically, but lets plays have sort of morphed into reality tv

@TheSamuraiGoomba

3 жыл бұрын

It ties in with people inside and outside the industry seeing shmups as disposable compared to other genres. But there's a larger issue with how metacritic and "how long to beat" create an impression of length equating to quality. Devs also want to inflate playtime to counteract credit-feeding casuals finishing the game easily and feeling ripped off.

Fantastic discussion here, you bring up a lot of good points. I remember a while ago we had this discussion about why Shmups were undervalued, and I remember we came to one of the conclusions that the genre isn't mainstream.

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

Yes for sure!! That ep was a lot of fun to record! Here's the youtube version for those who are curious. The soundcloud version is no more (hosting fees too expensive). kzread.info/dash/bejne/mKegm66dnqWrf7g.html

@shinmegamitalks

2 жыл бұрын

@@TheElectricUnderground wow man has it really been 3 years? Do u still do the podcast?

You heard him Treasure and Limited Run. Make it happen, 5-10,000 copies of Radiant Silvergun!! Damn, I wish!

I think pricing games purely by how much time you CAN get from a game is tricky. Ultimately you could do this with every single game if you take into account speedrunners and the amount of hours they can milk from a title. While I *could* personally justify paying AAA price for a shmup, I don't think the amount of time most players (casuals) will sink into the title can justify £60. A high price point for something a good chunk of players will only sink a few hours into just ends up limiting the amount of players who do take up the genre. Realistically (sadly) they should top out at £20, digitally.

I like your view on this matter. Nothing wrong with paying full retail price on a shmup. I would also say that shmups are the type of game you keep coming back to and play over and over so it’s worth it. I think I payed $40 for Fire Shark in 1990 and 31 years later I still pop it in the good old Genesis for a few runs every year.

@TheElectricUnderground

3 жыл бұрын

yeah I really do think the way reviewers complain about prices for the commercial releases can be sort of insulting towards the genre at times. Garegga rev 2016 and Ketsui Deathtiny are easily the best ps4 games and these same reviewers will shell piles of money towards crap like Cyberpunk or whatever, meanwhile yes you can play ketsui for literal decades and still not come close to mastering the game.

@corkman111

3 жыл бұрын

@@TheElectricUnderground Yeah, how much did I hear about Cyberpunk last year and it was a hot mess. I just saw about 40 PS4 copies at Best Buy just sitting there. Meanwhile, I had to import a physical version of Ketsui which I’ll probably still play after 30 years, if I’m still kickin’.

The $/hr to beat a game way of looking at games is a pretty brainlet way of looking at the value of a game. It takes me about 5 hours to do a run of Resident Evil 4, but that's jut a run, and I've run that game dozens of times throughout the years. If these big release games were actually fun to play for the 8 quintillion hours it take s to beat them, they wouldn't sell people boosts to skip content/ grinding. I'd rather have a 40 min very fun game i keep coming back to than a 60 hour game I keep putting down due to being board out of my mind.

@TheElectricUnderground

3 жыл бұрын

Yes exactly, and it s actually getting even worse in the "games as service" age. Where now the explicit goal is to constantly produce more and more bloat

@h.t.steiner5567

3 жыл бұрын

@@TheElectricUnderground Not to mention the people who would turn their noses up at paying $60 for a copy of ESP Ra.De. Psi probably dump hundreds of bucks trying to get their waifus in Mobages. Shmups have plenty of waifus for you if that's what you want. One more thing that I think REALLY hurts shmups visibility on Steam is the tagging system they have in place. Between people not knowing game genres and outright trolling, if you look up the "Shoot em' up" tag on steam You'll get things like Saints Row or Doki Doki Lit club. Not to mention a myriad of kusoge shmups you gotta sift through.

@MaulusRS

3 жыл бұрын

I think it's a sort of decent baseline to reference every once and a while but yeah, obviously how games reward your time is too diverse to hold it up as an actual standard

@Ammothief41

3 жыл бұрын

Right? Some of these AAA games are so bad people would rather watch streamers play them than be forced to do it themselves.

Arcade game prices go up, but so do many retro game prices too. I am fortunate to have start collecting in 1993 and I built a good collection over the years. I wanted to buy PCBs in 2005-2014 and cabs, but thought they were pricy as I was a student and didn't had room at my parents' house. But when I bought my house, had a good job and most of all, decided to sold many games from my collection that rose in price, I was able to pay for these items I was longing for years. 5 years later, I have 10 cabs, 150 arcade games (16 Cave among them). I always was in the genre (since Axelay when I was a kid) and I think I always will be.

@TheElectricUnderground

3 жыл бұрын

That is one hell of a collection!! Sounds like you are in it for the long haul for sure! 16 Cave shmups, that's a huge chunk of the library! I think when I get money they first thing I am going to try and buy is an EXA unit. Cheers!

@Liquidus0

3 жыл бұрын

@@TheElectricUnderground You won't regret buying an exA. I have one too and I love it. Got Aka to Blue and Infinos EXA so far. A friend of mine has SDOJ and Gimmick. So thrilling to buy new arcade release in 2021.

@bromba9921

3 жыл бұрын

@@TheElectricUnderground buy jamma PCB man.

The whole depth of quality is what i enjoy in many other mediums, so i never had a problem with "short" gameplay, but quality. If it is quality enough it could bring me infinite hours of enjoyment through replayability. I also prefer shorter novels as opposed to a never-ending series of them in order for me to reach a satisfying conclusion.

@TheElectricUnderground

3 жыл бұрын

No kidding Ian, remember when quality was a metric that mattered ha. It's really silly how reviewers and such are so laser focused in on CONTENT! For me I don't have the time for filler anyway, so it's a hurdle much more then a selling point.

The return on investment of money and time absolutely is a valid metric with which to assign value to anything from products to activities to even some types of relationships. Regarding games, for most people that value does not come from raw replayability of content with a limited amount of discernable variety (regardless of how deep that replayability is) but the amount of content in the initial time spent and the enjoyment factor of that content. And it's during the first 30 mins that a game has to really hook the player, especially if it's not a single-player experience (in which seeing the playthrough to it's conclusion IS the hook). That's why so many non-story games use story, in-game progression/unlockables, and other forms of extrinsic reward to hook players and justify the price. It's simply necessary in the modern gaming landscape, and there's really nothing we can do about it. Genres in which the flagship series' don't do those things are simply doomed to remain niche. It's why NRS games and Smash sell the highest and have the most presence in the general public. They offer more varied content that appeals to more than just the hardcore niche and is worth more money to more types of people. It's why the shmups with the broadest appeal are indies like ZeroRanger, which offer more to players than just replay value in the form of repetitively playing the same few levels for higher scores, and rouge-likes that guarantee multiple runs don't feel repetitive or samey. But because they're indies and not the frontrunners for the genre, they can't increase the appeal of the genre as a whole. And in both the fighting and shmup genres, I've noticed that there's a good chunk of the niche who are resistant against new releases being designed to have more mainstream appeal. But what those people fail to see (or choose to ignore) is the fact that "a rising tide lifts all boats". If the flagship titles that represent the genre to outsiders become more appealing to outsiders, more people will be able to assign higher levels of value and there will always be a portion of the newcomers who will be curious and look into the more niche offerings of the genre. And that will always be more than would get curious about the genre of things stay the same and never evolve/adapt to the changing gaming landscape.

@TheElectricUnderground

3 жыл бұрын

I definitely do think return on investment is a smart way to determine the value of a game :-) The thing is that I don't agree with the metrics that are commonly used as I think they don't really capture what makes a game valuable. For me valuing a game by the metric of just raw plodding gametime would be like reviewing a film for it's run time. The longer the film the better makes no sense ha, but funnily enough maybe this is a metric for film consumption as well since films are getting longer and longer too.

@s_factor_sam

3 жыл бұрын

@@TheElectricUnderground I think length of non-repetitive content matters more when it's an interactive medium, like games. So, i dont think the movie comparison is very valid, as the same logic just doesn't apply to both. That said, what defines value has definitely changed from the old days of arcades, NES, SNES, and Sega Genesis. Back when games were about starting from level 1, every session, and getting as far as you can. And it's just what happens in every area of entertainment. Modern movies are very different from movies during our childhoods, which were different from our parents' youth, etc. It's unfortunate, but an unavoidable byproduct of the passage of time is the changing of common values and standards, and entire genres that don't adapt get left behind. Just look at, not just shmups, but fighting games and even RTS games like Starcraft. "All failure is failure to adapt, all success is successful adaptation.” ― Max McKeown Note that "adapt" is not the same as "conform". It's possible for to cherry pick compatible elements of the changes around you, in order to adapt and make some changes without sacrificing one's identity. Guilty Gear Strive is a good example of this, for the fighting game genre. To completely fight against such change is either a losing battle or a fight to ensure your genre's untimely death, so to speak. It's wiser to push for changes that are more benefit than detriment, rather than wanting things to stay the same but also have growth (an impossibility when the traditions are preventing growth).

For me, its not so much about the price point, its just the question if i really want to play a game or not. Sometimes a specific collection can be really tempting as well. The limited edition of SDOJ is the most expensive game i have ever bought (270 bucks). I could have gone with the digital version for 20 or 30 bucks, and maybe i should have, but as a collectors item, high prices are fine, i think.

@TheElectricUnderground

3 жыл бұрын

Yes I did try to explain that the best I could in the vid where part of the pricing model gets hazy because in terms of pure gameplay paying hundreds of dollars for a game can be a stretch, but when it comes to the collecting side of things the higher prices is sort of the point, so I tried my best to flesh out the differences between the consumer and the collector when it comes to pricing.

I think the prices are blown out of proportion. To me it seems like a gold rush where the people buying at these high prices think they are making an investment without realizing that the barrier of entry to play these games is getting lower every year. That, or they are simply too passionate about some games and feel they have to spend mucho money on them to feel like they have the right to play... Either way, I strongly encourage everyone to maximize the bang for their bucks. There are too many good games to end up stuck paying 300$+ for a single game's version.

I've been through most of the usual mindsets you mentioned when it comes to pricing and how much I'm willing to spend for games. Since I now have way less time to play than I had in the past, I ended up at "fun per Session" as one of my measurements. My typical session can be between 30 minutes and multiple hours(though that's very rare). So if a game can be fun even if I only play it for multiple short sessions, it's "worth it" for me. This is the reason why I moved to shmups and Tetris more and more recently. The other measurement is how well I feel the game has been taken care of. I'm not a native English speaker, so maybe those were not the right words, but for example: - Did the developer add leader boards or other things that help me to stay motivated and making goals? - Does the art look like they cared about it? - Is there a fun scoring system? Or in case of a port: - How "true" is the port to the original, and was there anything added that gives even more value to the port? Since all points are highly subjective, regular reviews are not that helpful sometimes. It's also the reason why I prefer to buy games on steam and/or games that have a demo. As both ways give me an option to check if it's "for me". And if a game checks both of these points, I'm happy to buy it for the asking price, even if it is €40 or more. A good recent example of "worth it" for me is the Cotton Reboot. It's ticking all the boxes for me personally, so I happily paid the €39,99. Since it's console only and there was no demo, I went by shmupper reviews and playthroughs and was not disappointed. Lower price tags and deep sales also have their good side though, especially for people just getting into the genre. It's very easy to get a collection of different games and find the one that you enjoy the most without paying a lot. In the end, I think shmups and ports should have a normal price tag if the games have the content/features that make it worthwhile and add longevity. A great game that also values the player's time should be able to have a reasonable price tag and still get good sales and reviews. Can't say anything about PCBs as I'm not interested in that (yet). But I can surely say I would not be able to spend thousands of euros on just one game. So I'm happy for every well made port that gets released on the platforms I own. Also: I still can't believe that Blue Wish Resurrection Plus is free - more people should play it.

@soratheorangejuicemascot5809

3 жыл бұрын

I am afraid of downloading it.

@TheElectricUnderground

3 жыл бұрын

Yes this is how I look at ports too! A nice accurate solid port is good, but I do think that the devs should try to go the extra mile and add in some additional content and features to make the port really stand out and shine, otherwise it'll probably just end up worse then what can be offered by emulation anyway ha. What's worse is what we have now where devs are releasing these big old collections that are bare-bone and run badly, so you still have to play on emulator anyway.

Personally, aside from the games that I need to have day 1, most games I’m picking up closer to the $20 mark; AAA or otherwise. The sales these days are often insane and because of that my backlog has exploded to a point where most things I get just sit there and go untouched.

@TheElectricUnderground

3 жыл бұрын

That's fair :-) I think setting a personal price limit for games is completely fine as a consumer. The issue I have is when "game journalists" start saying that shmups should be sold at cheaper prices then other genres because they are inherently less valuable, that's when I start getting fired up.

@gt3racer2187

3 жыл бұрын

@@TheElectricUnderground I get that. I look at it similarly to what has been going on with Metroid Dread. It's been 19 years since there's been a traditional Metroid game and now that we finally get one people complain about price because Hollow Knight exists. Makes no sense. Honestly, I think something is worth what people are willing to pay for it and if someone doesn't think it's worth what it's priced at just wait for a sale. Fair price will always be subjective.

I stumbled into some hardcore pcb enthusiast on accident. I posted a 2all of Sorcer Striker on ShmupRedit awhile back and got my post taken down for using emulation. I tried talking to the moderator on there but he didn't want to discuss the issues in any detail. I got the impression that it was more of an elitist thing than a piracy issue with that particular moderator.

@TheElectricUnderground

3 жыл бұрын

Oh yeah that shmup reddit are crazy. I got temp banned for a few days for discussing the mister on there

@riggel8804

3 жыл бұрын

@@TheElectricUnderground I'm sorry to hear you got banned too but I'm kinda glad it wasn't only me. The experience I had was so absurd it was actually funny. My son screen shot the whole conversation to share with his friends on discord.

You are right, shmups are undervalued...same with beat em ups ..for me they are worth it for sure, I'll pay $60 for a good arcade game in a good package, like all M2 Shottriggers etc. Mark - You are already doing an excellent job re-educating people about the value of the arcade games and the nature of arcade gameplay in general. It's only a matter of time until the mainstream audience will become more open for these kind of experiences again....Ubi Soft open world snoozefests, the same Call Of Duty loops year in, year out.

@TheElectricUnderground

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks my dude! I really do hope these points start to sink in a bit more ha, because I do think this mentality that shmups should be a cheaper genre does hurt them financially and perhaps one of the reasons we are seeing less shmups from the older studios like CAVE. And yes, it's ridiculous how much money AAA games can get away with charging and siphoning away from their players.

I would love a free copy of crimson clover

@TheElectricUnderground

3 жыл бұрын

remind me when there is another sale and I'll send you one ha. Though I think when world explosion comes to steam the days of the $2.50 CCWI will be over

@MartinIrwin

3 жыл бұрын

just like work for a few hours to pay for it

As someone with a pretty decent arcade collection, I would not pay today's prices. These things are beyond crazy now. Emulation has come along way and some games have ports that are so good, it doesn't matter TBH.

@TheElectricUnderground

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah no kidding, it s crazy how high pcb prices have risen! Ddp is like 1000 and it s not that rare of a pcb as I understand

@nobodytonobodysbusiness

3 жыл бұрын

@@TheElectricUnderground Practicing with save states versus grinding with the pcb is reason enough alone. Plus, it's nice to pause when biology starts to weigh in. 😜

Great video! That would be great to see you play at GDC. Maybe some day. I don’t have Crimson Clover yet. My PC is very old, so I haven’t been on Steam for a while. Hope to get a new one in a few months. Cave/LR re-releases would be AMAZING. Like the Toaplan releases. They should be doing re-releases of any hard to find game above, say, $200.

@TheElectricUnderground

3 жыл бұрын

Yes I am hoping to play at a GDQ someday, that would be pretty cool :-) And yes, CAVE and Treasure re-releases seems like such an obvious business choice, especially for silvergun since it has such a big reputation

It's really a matter of what you're looking for in a particular gaming experience, or any experience for that matter. I've played shmups on emulation, purchased the retail releases (both domestic and import), and have paid $1000+ for Cave PCBs to play on a cab. Sometimes I just want to sit down and work on runs in MAME with save-states for 15-30 minutes and then do something else. Sometimes I want to play DDP Resurrection or other retail ports for their arrange modes, alternate soundtracks or other nice features they provide. Sometimes I want to check out the indie shmups that can't be played anywhere except on Steam. Other times I just want to sit down at the cab with the 29" CRT right in my face with the volume cranked, and play Ketsui or Metal Slug X. Those are all similar but still unique experiences. Some people don't care about the arcade experience but for me it is a very specific visceral kind of gaming experience that I just can't get from anything else, and for that particular kind of gaming I am willing to pay whatever it costs. I'm not getting any younger, arcade cabs aren't being made anymore, and someday it may not be possible to have that kind of experience anymore. What would be awesome is if I could play DFK on the cab with the Virt arrange soundtrack in glorious stereo sound.

The older I get, the less and less patience I have for a 40 hour game. Which is why shoot em ups have become my favorite and go to genre. When I'm really feelin it, I can put a 3 or 4 hours into one in one sitting, or I can play for 20 minutes on other days. I personally would pay $100 on the M2 stuff and still feel I got my moneys worth. On the other hand, I don't play many AAA games anymore and am out of touch with them, but when I have got the mainstream stuff, I've usually felt like I was ripped off.

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

Yes it is so hard for me to find the motivation to keep playing a slow paced game beyond a few hours, even if I want to

I had another thought about the value for money issue relating to shmups, and why shmups are always released in super value packs for budget prices. And why people balk at spending $30 or more for a re-release, etc. So see if my thought process makes sense: With a lot of games you can look at footage of the game, preview materials, listen to opinions about the game and get an idea if it's the sort of game you would enjoy. If you like Bioshock, you can look at footage of Prey 2017 and say "hey, that looks like Bioshock! I would enjoy that!" and probably be right. Or you can go backwards, look at footage of System Shock 2, say "this looks exactly like old-school Bioshock. I would enjoy this" and you'll be right there too. So it works with both old and new video games. You can find a thing that looks and seems to play comparably to something else you've enjoyed in the past, and you can be reasonably certain you will enjoy that game. Especially true for genres or subgenres that are unfriendly to mobile/shovelware developers (often because of cost). Shmups aren't that way for me at all. A lot of shmups just look the same to a casual viewer, including the shovelware ones. I can't tell from preview materials if the game has a lot of dead (scrolling) time in it, or if the difficulty is wack, the ship hitbox is massive, or the game has poor performance, or lag. Even if the game is 100% quality, it may not be the kind of shmup that I personally enjoy most. The game might be ugly but play great, or beautiful but complete trash. Reviews are largely unhelpful for reasons your channel has gone into. I've seen so many channels recommending shovelware, just because "it is a shmup" and it's cheap. And shmups are fun, right? So that's the situation and the environment, where the shmup market is flooded with shovelware and mobile ports, and I can't tell what's good or bad unless I'm already familiar with the brand (at the very least.) A casual viewer won't know who M2 is, they'll just see "another shmup" that looks to them like every other shmup, only it costs $40 instead of $5. They may even think, "Super Shovelstar: Android Super Edition is a shmup too, and I have fun pew pewing with that on my phone! This "Mushihimesama Futari" can't possibly be worth 10x what I paid for that game!" My point is just that there are visual indications of high quality and subgenre similarity which are visible in some genres and not others. With shmups, I think it's really hard, especially for casual players, to see any meaningful differences between the games when they're watching preview videos, and mainstream shmup reviews pretty much all give the same review to every game. Either a 7/10 or 8/10 and "it's fun arcade action" or some nondescript shit like that. You can tell the difference visually between SNES Chrono Trigger and mobile shovelware jrpgs made in rpgmaker.

@TheElectricUnderground

3 жыл бұрын

So many great points here! Yes I agree that the overall value of a shmup being a mystery to the casual audience is a MASSIVE barrier for the genre right now. Like with the m2 shot trigger releases, battle garegga rev 2016 is fully worth a full price tag (though I think it sales at 35) for all the amazing features, quality, and extra modes. Plus the fact that the thing has actual world record scores set on it that you can download off the leaderboard, I can't emphasize enough how great this port is. But to the casual viewer, what is the difference between the garegga port and the psikyo zero div collection? (I shudder at the thought).

@TheSamuraiGoomba

3 жыл бұрын

@@TheElectricUnderground I think the casual viewer only sees the difference in price point. "ZeroDiv offers 6 games for $40? Bargain! M2 offers 1 game for $40? Ugh, isn't that a little expensive?" :p Then you have all those shovelware shmups (shmupelware?) and a lot of those are in the $5 or lower price point, before you take into account $1 each sales and stuff. If it all looks the same, why buy the $40 instead of the $1 shmup? Shmups don't have the same database or history of being curated (for quality) like a lot of other genres. That information isn't easy for more casual people to access. IMO anyway.

Game time isn't important but the number of hours worth of entertainment is. I will often compare the price of a game compared to drinks on a night out or a meal in a restaurant. Then games can start to look like reasonable value.

Good video, interesting subjects. Makes me think...I absolutely loved Bloodborne. Even got a platinum trophy on it. But I reached a point where I simply can't bring myself to play it anymore...I had my share. Guwange on the other hand...never played for longer than one hour in one sitting. But man, I'm still playing this damn thing...since 2001:-) I wish they'd port it to Steam, M2 style...

@TheElectricUnderground

3 жыл бұрын

Guwange is awesome! I actually did a live 1cc in a japanese event earlier this year :-)

Been hunting for a copy of Radiant Silvergun for a long time but it's just unreasonable how much that game goes for. Is there something fundamentally wrong with the XBLA release, or could they tune it up and throw it on PS4/5?

@TheElectricUnderground

3 жыл бұрын

Oh xbla release has some great features like the stage select, but it runs a bit too fast and has an extra frame of lag compared to Saturn

@Camdavis11

3 жыл бұрын

@Keith Courage RX-78-2 ooh interesting.... May have to pick up a cheap 360 and download it... Still cheaper than the saturn disc alone 🤣

@TheRestartPoint

3 жыл бұрын

Saturn + Pseudo Saturn Kai cart, lets you play CDRs. You can still buy a used Japanese Saturn cheap. You can of course also get an ODE if you can afford that.

@XantosFR

3 жыл бұрын

As a casual RS player (still very far from 1CC) there is one feature that I love in the XB360 version, the fact that you can permanently display an "experience bar" with levels of all your buttons on screen. For those who don't know, in RS each of your 3 buttons gain experience throughout the game when scoring with it, if you kill an ennemy with button A you get full XP on button A, with A+B you share XP between those 2 buttons, and sword (A+B+C) shares XP between all 3. Those are very important mechanics (even for survival runs, as XP buffs your weapons) that are just too osbcure in the original game, this feature makes the game much more enjoyable to me !

I would love to know what sort of numbers M2 are doing with the first 5 Shot Triggers games. I reckon it's a fraction of what people think. Maybe even in the hundreds.

@TheElectricUnderground

3 жыл бұрын

I think the exact same thing, man I would love to know! I think you're right though sadly, I don't think the sales are that strong. I just hope they keep going and do DDP and batrider before they close up shop.

@opaljk4835

3 жыл бұрын

The Electric Underground I just ended up buying the DDP for ps1. I know it’s far from perfect, but even with getting that it M2 were to release a shot triggers version, I would buy it immediately

What is the name of the shmup with a giant man boss doing backflips? I played shmups before but not much of a fan but now I get more interest on the genre. Just asking. Nice vid BTW. Good thing I subbed to you because I rarely see shmup channels in YT.

@lunaria_stg

3 жыл бұрын

According to KZread, it's Trials of Mana. (It's Radiant Silvergun.)

@TheElectricUnderground

3 жыл бұрын

Oh that's radiant silvergun!! Such an amazing game, I have a commentary 1cc vid of it if you're interested in learning more about it :-) kzread.info/dash/bejne/ZKlqk9iYqbeoiNo.html Also thank you for the sub! Yes doing shmup content on youtube is really fun, but a bit of a challenge to get the content out there ha.

It comes down to form factor. Game devs aren't concerned with how rare or collective their games will get. Only selling the maximum units to fund the next project. People are so concerned about resale than they are experiencing the medium. The absurd high prices are the reasons to champion digital and reproductions. Collectors that shame others for not shelling out 10x over asking price are a joke. It's not like the original devs are going to see a penny from the resale.

@TheElectricUnderground

3 жыл бұрын

Agreed! I actually made a whole video about this topic of physical games not being the future of preservation, as fun as they are. kzread.info/dash/bejne/h6KGxbSOkZW1oqg.html I own the digital versions of all the ShotTriggers releases, but I will probably pick up the physical versions at some point as well, mostly just for kicks ha. I have the physical Garegga port on ps4 and the disc just stays nice and cozy in it's case ha.

I was bit late to joining the PCB party And currently I own "Detana Twinbee". I dunno if I should say "Oh thank god. No one play this game, so I only payed 250 dollars for that thing" or "Oh god.. This PCB market got so crazy over time". But seriously all the Cave PCBs are just insane. Also the fact that these PCB can break for no reason. So you have to be very careful with it too.

@TheElectricUnderground

3 жыл бұрын

I know that's the scary part! Imagine spending $3000 on a pcb just to have it stop working on you and then having no idea how to repair it!

Me looking over at my PCBs that have probably increased with an accumulative 10000%+ from what I bought them for... *Looks back at the screen nervously* yeah man these games are still too undervalued damn these low prices :P Honestly though I'd rather play all of them on Steam given the ability and good ports.

@TheElectricUnderground

3 жыл бұрын

This is the funny thing. So the pcb market pricing is absurd and def over valued, but the commercial market of new games, steam releases, and so forth are definitely undervalued. So it is backwards. It should be that newer quality games like ZeroRanger are a bit more expensive and the pcb and older releases are cheaper. Collecting and steam have sort of flipped the formula

Mobile games caused this problem, everyone wants everything for $.99 now. They weren’t around when I was paying $50 for Atari 2600 games or $70 for 32X games. We’re lucky that new console game prices have stayed pretty much the same for 30 years.

@TheElectricUnderground

3 жыл бұрын

yes, especially for shmups because now some people view shmups as a mobile genre, like the psikyo games are candy crush or something, grrr.

Did you tried the latest FinalBurn Neo builds (standalone)? Now supports run-ahead to reduce input lag and lua scripts.

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

OH SNAP, can you link?

I have a great collection of shmups across all platforms Inc PCB's but I'm losing a lot of interest trying to find retro ones due to the prices , ODE's, Hacked consoles, Emulation and current consoles for me now.

@TheElectricUnderground

3 жыл бұрын

Yes I'm the same way. While I would love to pick up more pcbs, the price market right now is just crazy!

@trev1976

3 жыл бұрын

Oh and I do like a bit of bootlegging now too , like the PGM conversions and the multi's like my naomi net dimm. I love collecting but I'm gamer first so will usually go for the cheapest most authentic option. Bitd PCB's were the only authentic option hence why I still have quite a few but every year the retro gaming options are getting better and better making PCB's redundant which is a good thing imo. Someone just needs to come up with a universal downscaler so you can put any HD console in a 15khz arcade cabinet (with added controller boards would be good), then we would be sorted.

@CaseyTappy

3 жыл бұрын

@@TheElectricUnderground Don't expect it to get any cheaper ever, I remember people holding out on say a Dodonpachi board in 2009 or so because it went over 200 bucks fore the first time .

The $3000 price tag of Batrider D: Buy incredible game, or food for a year? I had a chance to buy Sorcer Striker(Mahou Daisakusen) for $1200 and someone bought it while I was procrastinating... Probably a fair price tbh

@TheElectricUnderground

3 жыл бұрын

Ha exactly! Poor batrider needs that m2 port, it's their destiny to make it and they better get a move on soon! Sorcerer Striker is a great game but I wouldn't worry, i think you'll be able to find another pcb of it at a good price in the future. Have you checked out the japanese yahoo actions? I've heard that's the place to check for good pcb deals (other then the shmup forum). There's also a channel in my discord that people sell pcbs on, there was a rayforce for sale there a while ago that really tempted me ha.

@ShamanNoodles

3 жыл бұрын

@@TheElectricUnderground oh cool thanks for the info. Yeah the Japan Yahoo is where the sorcer striker was sold. I think I'll just go with the PS4 port at this point. Yeah I really hope that Batrider port comes soon. I've become a huge fan of Compile/Raizing/8ing. The art is top notch, and they are definitely on the easier side.

@CaseyTappy

3 жыл бұрын

Most extreme price I saw was a Batrider arcade full kit for $ 60,- about 15 years ago , arcades threw older games in the bin back then . It's only the last 6 years or so the prices shoot straight up .

@bromba9921

3 жыл бұрын

Mahou daisakusen is a 70000 yen game.

What was the Shmup you were playing at the end of this video? 🙏 Thanks 😁

@TheElectricUnderground

3 жыл бұрын

That was the final boss of ZeroRanger! Yes I strongly recommend the game, ZR is one of my favs :-)

@ZZFilm

3 жыл бұрын

@@TheElectricUnderground Ah. Yes. Thought so. Thanks. I'm a huge Treasure fan and collector, so I'll definitely get it since I know where many of ZRs ideas are inspired from.

You used to talk more about paid DLC as a potential avenue for profit, did you change your mind? I do think it's probably the best way of moving forward, because it allows developers to keep low base prices which I think ultimately helps shmups since they're really hard to get into. On the other hand, 20 bux for a fully featured shmup seems like a very fair price to me, not sure how more casual fans will feel though. I think everyone can agree that prices of games like CCWI are just ridiculous, no matter how casual of a fan they are.

@TheElectricUnderground

3 жыл бұрын

Oh no not at all! So that discussion was more about coming up with selling strats for devs and I think paid dlc is a smart strategy. This video is more from the consumer side as far as the value proposition the games present. So how the dev wants to do it is fine with me, either $20 with additional dlc purchases or $40 for the whole package up front, either is fine. What I m more against is devs just giving the dlc away for free if it s a serious update. Perfect example would be when ccwe comes to steam, I think it will cost $20 bucks and I think that s fair. But if they did ccwe as a free update that would be crazy

@boghogSTG

3 жыл бұрын

@@TheElectricUnderground Danbo.

@TheElectricUnderground

3 жыл бұрын

@@boghogSTG I know, I really hope he charges for Double Action.

Let's be honest the most modern shmups suck. Not all of them, there are some exclusions. But such heavy hitters (and my favorite shmups of all time) like Battle Garegga, Ketsui Deathtiny and Crimzon Clover are definitely worth the price. Btw, retro shmups cost lots of money.

@soratheorangejuicemascot5809

3 жыл бұрын

So... What modern shmup would you recommend to me?

@4daearz513

3 жыл бұрын

@@soratheorangejuicemascot5809 Crimzon Clover, Sky Force Reloaded, Sine Mora EX, Danmaku Unlimited 3, Pawarumi.

@soratheorangejuicemascot5809

3 жыл бұрын

@@4daearz513 Sine Mora Ex and Sky Force sounds questionable, I already have Crimzon Clover and abit disappointed on that game, no idea what Pawarumi is, and Danmaku Unlimited 3 looks interesting and also dirt cheap.

@ishimoto1597

3 жыл бұрын

@@soratheorangejuicemascot5809 sky force and sine mora are utter trash. Pawarumi also sucks. Dan 3 is great. CC is great but not new player friendly, give it some time, it's one of the goats

@4daearz513

3 жыл бұрын

@@ishimoto1597 i really enjoyed Sky Force Reloaded & Sine Mora EX. Forgot to mention Sturmwind EX, also not bad shmup. Pawarumi is like modern interpretation of ikaruga. Sure, it's not that good, but worth playing.

The same people who complain about a $40-$60 shmup will turn around and drop $120+ on Call of Duty and a season pass and then drop more money on cosmetic items 🤔🤔🤔

@TheElectricUnderground

3 жыл бұрын

Exactly, and don't forget now you can gamble and not just buy your cosmetic items, but buy yourself a lootbox instead like a child playing a crane machine at the mall.

I can´t afford arcade cabinets and PCB:s but I would love to have some. The feeling of playing, for example Battle Garegga, on a big CRT monitor in original aspect ratio definitely beats the PS4 port I think. If you want to practice the game PS4 of course is best but I understand why you would want to spend so much if you have it.

@TheElectricUnderground

3 жыл бұрын

You can play the ps4 port on a crt in correct aspect ratio :-) that s how I play it :-)

@arrowviper8882

3 жыл бұрын

@@TheElectricUnderground That would be awesome to have. I saw your video about the no lag-converter and will probably buy it some day. But it still wouldn’t be 240p right?

I wish I could buy full price games to support the developers, but I live in Mexico 🇲🇽 with a low income. For me, it's either emulation or Steam games under 15 USD. Indie games are great for my spending ability.

Quality over quantity

@TheElectricUnderground

3 жыл бұрын

Yes please!

My philosophy is $1 an hour. If I can get 10 hours out of a $10 game or 60 out of a $60, I am happy. Most arcade games I can get more than $1 an hour.

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

I like that idea a lot! Yeah most people's standards are now like $0.10 per hour with lots of padding ha

what's the game that you show @ 15:36?

@TheElectricUnderground

3 жыл бұрын

That's Dodonpachi SaiDaiOuJou on the EXA cabinet. Unfortunately the EXA version is arcade exclusive, but there is a meh port on the xbox 360 (that input lag is kinda high), so you can check that version out :-)

So is Dariusburst CS price really justified? Unlike other digital shmups on Steam, that game is more expensive than most shmups I've seen.

@boghogSTG

3 жыл бұрын

Compared to other shmups? No it isn't. It's exactly the logical end conclusion of being obsessed with content - the CS mode is just shameless and endless recycling of assets hastily put together into new levels that have no consistent quality at all. I don't see much value in that mode, most of it is an absolute slog. Though there ARE some good missions, and arcade mode is very good.

@notnoaintno5134

3 жыл бұрын

@@boghogSTG I have to agree. The game can be fun and challenging but most of the "content" is the same bosses and levels over and over again. I also feel like the graphics / presentation are a little weak; I feel like G Darius did a better job on that end.

@boghogSTG

3 жыл бұрын

@@notnoaintno5134 Yeah, 90's Taito basically set a new standard for presentation in shmups. I understand that they can't really match that nowadays but man it's a shame that DBCS is so dry...

@TheElectricUnderground

3 жыл бұрын

I actually don't know in this case. I still haven't played or reviewed Darius CS mostly because there is so much content for the thing it's kind of intimidating ha.

@soratheorangejuicemascot5809

3 жыл бұрын

@@boghogSTG So DBCS is just bloated?

let me know next time you do a giveaway lol

@TheElectricUnderground

3 жыл бұрын

I def will, I had a much smaller fanbase back then so it was ironically harder to do the giveaway then it would be these days :-)

If you want the original game and it is scarce and many people wants it, you pay. It's not ridiculous. Like with any other kind of collectibles/arts market

@TheElectricUnderground

3 жыл бұрын

I think the unique factor is that shmups are not just collectables, they are games as well. So that s where the price tension can really develop

@bromba9921

3 жыл бұрын

You should buy PCB. Try with one and see.

Song in the background?

@TheElectricUnderground

3 жыл бұрын

Here you go :-) downloads.khinsider.com/game-soundtracks/album/varth-operation-thunder-storm-g.s.m.-capcom-6

@lancevance6413

3 жыл бұрын

@@TheElectricUnderground Thanks dude!

You don't buy 12 PS5 games over the course of 6 months and you buy a ketsui PCB. Easy.

@TheElectricUnderground

3 жыл бұрын

Batrider?

@bromba9921

3 жыл бұрын

@@TheElectricUnderground same. I bought 4 batrider in 2 years.

I love shmups and arcade games in general and I disagree with everything you said. Arcade games don't exist in a separate bubble, they coexist with other "normal" games and they can and should be compared against them and their standards. A game with 1h of unique content shouldn't cost the same as a 100h game of comparable quality, and no, playing that 1h game for 50h doesn't mean it has 50h of content (yes, I'm talking about Ketsui), you're just replaying the same content over and over again. ANY game can be replayed ad infinitum if you so desire. Seems both players and reviewers agree with this. Also it's worth noting that arcade games are inherently worse products because unlike normal games they're emulated. And we both know that even the best releases aren't 100% perfect. I also disagree with the gameplay density concept. Gameplay is gameplay whether you're flying around shooting stuff or just running around gathering plants in an rpg or survival game. Neither type is better or worse, some people may prefer frantic, condensed action, others may have as much fun running around talking to NPCs and exploring environments in a 3D game. What I'm ultimately trying to say is that shmups/arcade games should be priced like any other game - accordingly to the quality AND amount of their content, and 99% of them are way overpriced (which I bet is one of the main reasons they sell so poorly), I always wait for deep sales before buying them. Just look at your favorite shmup, R-Type F2, it costs the same as Horizon Zero Dawn (one of PS4 best exclusives) or premium edition of GTAV - a triple A game made by a full team of over 1000 people across 3 full years... I agree about Crimzon Clover being undervalued but it's their own fault, they were officially selling it for 2$ barely 10 months after Steam release.

@boghogSTG

3 жыл бұрын

Reconsider what you're saying fren - using the same standards for arcade and standard games is unreasonable because they're neither designed the same, nor played the same because arcade games are *run based*. Using the same standards for regular games creates a situation where these massive games have to be penalized for having lengthy run times (unless separated by modes, or routes, or something else) because this makes a run-based approach unpleasant. Then you add other elements - load times, dead air, cutscenes, repeated encounters, set pieces with minimal interactivity, exploration, puzzle solving, etc. which just don't survive a run-based gameplay approach. Furthermore, you can't judge action games by the standards of something like RPG's either, there are good reasons why they tend to be much shorter. Same deal with roguelikes/lites. You can't outright reject the ideas behind gameplay density either, because they are real and inform game development, not just the player's experience. It's trivial to copypaste some plants onto an RPG map and let the barebones gathering mechanics take over from there. It's difficult, expensive & time consuming to design & balance good encounters in a deep, challenging action game. Another thing - "unique content" is a very vague and tricky term in these convos. An example to comes to mind is Ninja Gaiden Black/Sigma. They are roughly ~16 hour long games and would be considered to have about that amount of unique content. But if we actually look at the games - they spend HOURS repeating what is essentially the same encounter in very slightly different environments, while rarely ever mixing enemy types. It's technically unique content, but it's very low-tier and IMO should not be encouraged at all, I don't just think it's low value but I think it actively takes away value from the encounter by making you feel sick of it through such blatant back-to-back repetition.

@konstantdrachenfels5446

3 жыл бұрын

@@boghogSTG 1. No it's not, there are plenty of standard run based games (just to name some of the most popular: Spelunky, Dead Cells and Binding of Isaac). Why would arcade ones get special treatment? Also, literally every single video game genre is "something-based" (rng-based, strategy-based, exploration-based, dialog-based etc), once again, why run-based games should get special treatment? 2. "these massive games have to be penalized for having lengthy run times because this makes a run-based approach unpleasant" Why? Since when every single video game under the sun needs to be played in a single run? 3. "It's difficult, expensive & time consuming to design & balance good encounters in a deep, challenging action game." It's even more difficult to do the same in an RPG. Plus you have tons of other things to worry about like story, dialogs, quests, items, modern 3D graphics, world and exploration... Or what, are you saying balancing and creating everything in Witcher 3 is easier than balancing 30 min arcade shooter? Also, gameplay is gameplay no matter how intense it is and "density" is subjective. What about turn-based games, do they have no gameplay because it's not "dense"? 4. "HOURS repeating what is essentially the same encounter in very slightly different environments, while rarely ever mixing enemy types. It's technically unique content, but it's very low-tier and IMO should not be encouraged" I agree but it's NG's individual problem. Dark Souls presents new enemies and content from start to finish (and it's at least a 50h game). Also, shmups (and arcade games in general, especially beat'em ups) are masters of repeating enemy types and patterns, so I don't see how it's a problem of only "standard" games.

@boghogSTG

3 жыл бұрын

@@konstantdrachenfels5446 1.) They are all incredibly low on "content" compared to the likes of RPG's, or even standard action games and are far more comparably to shmups/bmups as a result. See the trend? 2.) See now you're already applying different standards because you understand that the genres are played differently, and judging them by the same set of standards is unfair one way or another. This is my point. 3.) That's why RPG's generally don't do the same, the ones that do are comparatively short like Ys. "Gameplay is gameplay" is meaningless, there are different types of gameplay that are experienced differently and designed differently. Gameplay density applies to turn based games just as well - it would just apply to how important and interesting each turn is with games like Into The Breach being on the highly dense end of the spectrum, or maybe you could take the complexity POV and consider how many elements need to be taken into consideration each turn and how much can be optimized. There are ways to analyze this. Regarding other elements - 30 minutes of a shmup with equivalent production values/fidelity as Witcher 3 WOULD require far more effort in design and balancing than any given 30 minutes of The Witcher yes. 4.) It's a problem across the entire medium, how do you think "unique content" works in RPG's? You repeat essentially the same encounter for hours on end with little variation, whether it's Skyrim's bandits or random encounters in a JRPG the problem is the same. Shmups and beat em ups ARE masters of repeating encounters in a very positive sense, the encounters are distinct, quick and broken up by new content. The repetition is measured in dozens of seconds to a couple of minutes, not HOURS. If you want a shmup designed with the same content-driven mindset, take a look at Dariusburst Chronicle Saviors and its CS mode - it's terrible.

@konstantdrachenfels5446

3 жыл бұрын

@@boghogSTG 1) What? All three games I mentioned are known for having ridiculous amount of content, tens of times more than a standard shmup. And why are you suddenly bringing out RPGs? We were talking about arcade and standard run-based games. 2) No, I apply the same standards because they're universal: quality of gameplay and amount of content. Arcade games tend to have the quality but have only a quarter of content when compared to standard games, yet they cost much the same, that's my problem. Also, whether a game is run-based or not doesn't matter gameplay wise, for example Dead Cells is run based yet it has the same type of gameplay like many other action platformers, Slay the Spire is run-based but it has the same gameplay as any other deckbuilding game, etc. 3) "there are different types of gameplay that are experienced differently and designed differently. " My point exactly, are you trying to confuse me by agreeing with me?:) Mark's point is that shmups have inherently better gameplay because they're dense, my point is they're not because there are different kinds of gameplay and none of them is inherently better than the rest. "Regarding other elements - 30 minutes of a shmup with equivalent production values/fidelity as Witcher 3 WOULD require far more effort in design and balancing than any given 30 minutes of The Witcher yes." Except for a shmup that 30 min would be the whole game:) 4.) It's a problem across the entire medium, how do you think "unique content" works in RPG's? You have unique towns/dungeons/environments, unique NPCs and playable companions, unique enemies and bosses, quests, dialogs, items and equipment, unique gameplay systems... It's clear to me you don't play many rpgs (and I don't mean it as an insult or something), Skyrim is to RPGs what a typical euroshmup is to you :) It's a mainstream dumbed down version of a true rpg, and yes, jRPG are really repetitive, that's why I don't play them too much. But saying that RPGs as a whole have samey encounters and little variation is really ignorant. It's like saying, all shmups have bad, inertia-ridden controls after playing Jets'n'Guns and Sky Force, and we both know how untrue is that. You should try something like Divinity: Original Sin, it's a full fledged RPG with no random encounters, and every battle is hand-crafted. 5) "Shmups and beat em ups ARE masters of repeating encounters in a very positive sense, the encounters are distinct, quick and broken up by new content" What?! Even the best shmups constantly repeat enemy types and patterns and don't even start me on beat'em'ups. I consider Shadows over Mystara, SORR and Fight'n Rage the best beat'em ups of all time and even they constantly repeat the same enemies over and over again from start to finish. EDIT: Let my ask you this, how many ships do you destroy during a single run in shmup? 500? Were those 500 unique encounters or did you destroy 99% of them by simply holding the shoot button and dodging? We both know the only true unique encounters in shmups are the bosses, the rest are trash mobs with some unique exceptions here and there.

@boghogSTG

3 жыл бұрын

@@konstantdrachenfels5446 1.) They don't, they have a small amount of unique content that's shuffled around and gated behind unlocks, you're conflating "replayability" and playtime with content. I guess you could qualify shuffling around the same content as "unique content", but then you would have to agree that any roguelite has near infinite content because of how many possibly permutations there can be, which IMO makes viewing games through the lense of content pointless. 2.) You're not applying the same standards because you're acknowedging that how a game is played - run based or single playthrough based - modifies how its content has to be distributed at the very least. An arcade game isn't made better if you stuff it with content without isolating said content, it's made worse. Similarly, single-playthrough based games aren't made better by segmenting their content into routes or modes, they are made worse because they're designed to be played as a cohesive whole. 3.) I don't think Mark said this is an objective standard but yeah dense gameplay isn't necessarily better. Though there are also realities to designing dense gameplay that shouldn't be undervalued or overlooked, such as the amount of dev work it requires. Also good, a 20 hour long shmup would be practically unplayable. 4.) A lot of those elements you're bringing up are either copypasted, procedurally generated, or just repeated far too much. Take a game like Final Fight - it has 7 completely unique enemy types with their own AI patterns, movesets, etc. which are arranged in unique combinations throughout the whole game which is 30-40 minutes long, and has dozens of encounters during that runtime. Now I don't know about Divinity OS (it might be a rare exception), but try to apply the same standard to other RPG's and see if they will deliver this amount of variety & engagement per each 30 minutes of playtime, or if a similar amount of content will be stretched across 10 hours. It's all smoke and mirrors, hell even worlds are often just procedurally generated copypasting elements and touched up after the fact. And that isn't true, I've played plenty of WRPG's - all the Fallouts, Gothic games, Underrail, Legend of Grimrock, VTMB, NWN, etc. On top of just having really bad combat design, the games shamelessly repeat content

👍👍

Not limited run! 😭

@TheElectricUnderground

3 жыл бұрын

Ha yeah maybe someone else, now that you mention it the Radiant silvergun release would cost like 100 or something if they reprinted it. But at least they have the resources and marketing to make it happen, bit of a double-edged sword just like steam.

I dropped thousands

Best way to emulate Radiant Silvergun?

@TheElectricUnderground

3 жыл бұрын

I think the Mednafen Sega Saturn emulator is the best way to go, though it still has some issues I think this is the best way to go probably for emu mednafen.github.io/documentation/ss.html

This emulation is wrong discussion is very stupid, when you drop a 1000 dollars on that Ketsui PCB, Cave isn't getting that money, they are still only getting by with their gacha and console ports, those are the ones people should buy

@TheElectricUnderground

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah someday I am going to come up with a really solid arguement that justifies emulation as it stands today. Like with copyright law references and everything. I am still in the early phases but I am pretty sure that copyright law, as originally intended, had some stipulations about if a product is not being produced for a certain period of time, it would fall into the public domain. Of course disney has butchered the law to the point where nothing falls out of copyright ever, but there are some legit legal arguments to be made for stuff like arcade games. I've tipped my hand but this is going to be a future video.

40-50 no more, do they think we're made of money the swines 😑

@TheElectricUnderground

3 жыл бұрын

I can definitely understand that price cut off and most shmups fall into that range no problem! You can get the digital versions of the shottrigger releases for 40 :-)

Play it free on emulation.

@niklasstg6957

3 жыл бұрын

That is not 100% correct. Yes Emulation is good but if you can get the game from the devs and its a normal price Emulation is not the right thing. If you want to play a game like DOJ where the last port is old and the devs earn no money, yes Emulation is okay.

Get a MiSTer. More convenient and same accuracy. Playing CPS 2 and Cave boards.

@TheElectricUnderground

3 жыл бұрын

Indeed! Yes I use my mister a lot these days for older releases!

@ninetendopesaitama2107

3 жыл бұрын

@@TheElectricUnderground we are lucky to have fpga hw recreating these old pcbs. Of course a cab would be nice but the costs, effort and space are not my cup of tea. I dont need a crt display.

@MartinIrwin

3 жыл бұрын

@@ninetendopesaitama2107 I have my MiSTer in a cab; I needed the CRT.

@PaulHindt

10 ай бұрын

Is the accuracy pretty good for the Cave games on Mister? I have personally never played on a Mister setup but I have owned some Cave PCBs, and various console Cave ports. I keep thinking about setting up a Mister but I've got way too many other hobbies and projects taking up time ATM. If they ever get the CV1000 running on there, with good accuracy, I would definitely make it a priority.

I paid the following in 2015/2016 €50 for Mushihemesama Futari €10 for Under Defeat HD Deluxe €25 for Dodonpachi Resurrection €5 Akai Katana All 360, Used like new. I paid the following for these PS4 games between 2017 & 2023* All New & Sealed *Price with Delivery from Playasaia €45 for Caladrius Blaze* €55 for Battle Garrega* €70 for Dodonpachi Reincarnation* €60 for Deathiny Ketsui* €38 for Batsugun Saturn Tribute* €33 for Deathsmiles 1+2 €35 for Psyiko Shooting Vol 1 €35 for Psyiko Shooting Vol 2 €20 for Sine Mora Ex €30 for Raiden IV Mikado Remix They are all 'WORTH IT' due to replayability and resale value. And how cool they look on my shelf. I only collect shmups on these 2 platforms. I hope to buy more in the future. Radiant Silvergun will get a PS4 release some day I hope. Thanks for the cool videos...

What is the name of the shmup with a giant man boss doing backflips? I played shmups before but not much of a fan but now I get more interest on the genre. Just asking. Nice vid BTW. Good thing I subbed to you because I rarely see shmup channels in YT.

@Ammothief41

3 жыл бұрын

Radiant Silvergun.

@TheElectricUnderground

3 жыл бұрын

Oh that's radiant silvergun!! Such an amazing game, I have a commentary 1cc vid of it if you're interested in learning more about it :-) kzread.info/dash/bejne/ZKlqk9iYqbeoiNo.html Also thank you for the sub! Yes doing shmup content on youtube is really fun, but a bit of a challenge to get the content out there ha.

What is the name of the shmup with a giant man boss doing backflips? I played shmups before but not much of a fan but now I get more interest on the genre. Just asking. Nice vid BTW. Good thing I subbed to you because I rarely see shmup channels in YT.

@serraramayfield9230

3 жыл бұрын

Radiant Silvergun as he mentioned in the video

@TheElectricUnderground

3 жыл бұрын

Oh that's radiant silvergun!! Such an amazing game, I have a commentary 1cc vid of it if you're interested in learning more about it :-) kzread.info/dash/bejne/ZKlqk9iYqbeoiNo.html Also thank you for the sub! Yes doing shmup content on youtube is really fun, but a bit of a challenge to get the content out there ha.