Perhaps your results will be improved further if you used a polymerizing oil such as tung oil or linseed oil. After your print absorbs the oil it would harden and seal up the print preventing moisture from being absorbed into the print.

@HoffmanTactical

Жыл бұрын

Linseed oil is an the menu.

@natenotabot1234

Жыл бұрын

Lol we’re back to applying linseed oil to gun stocks.

@grifce

Жыл бұрын

​@@HoffmanTactical polyester tent sealer? Should stop water

@tenacioustinkerer7661

9 ай бұрын

It’s 2023… get that thing cerakoted. A complete cerakote shell should block ALL moisture. That’s how we finish carbon fiber nylon parts for our customers, and it adds a personalized touch.

@CHROMEBLAZEstudio

5 ай бұрын

​@@tenacioustinkerer7661Okay, but what if you are printing car sunroof mechanical parts? Will cerakote be helpful or a simple annealing is ok just it? Thank you.

I didn't skip a second of this. This research is great. I've always took my nylon out of the vacuum seal and went straight into a 170 degree dryer for 4-6 hours and then right into a spool dryer and print through a bowden tube all the way to the nozzle. If you have a heated enclosure and your printers electronics are outside of it I recommend annealing inside the enclosure with the supports. From that point I'm thinking I should immediately cerakote and bake the nylon part right away. If I let the nylon filament sit for any amount of time in the atmosphere the layer strength went bad fast. Thanks for all the hard work. Increase the oil temperature to 212f or higher??

@HoffmanTactical

Жыл бұрын

While I don't have a heated enclosure, I do anneal with supports, you just have to be carful not to break them off when removing the part from the bed.

@BuckFoeJiden

Жыл бұрын

​@@HoffmanTactical Would it be better to increase support strength, and post-process to remove the connections? I've been experimenting with annealing Plaster of Paris compacted around the part. The downside to this is the toxic gasses the plaster releases. Any thoughts? I'm also considering a ceramic slurry used in lost ceramic casting to anneal my parts with. Completely encase the part in the ceramic slurry, heat in the oven and then remove the shell. A while back I'd asked you about a newer PVC filament that was on the market - have you had an opportunity to test it yet? I've seen good results, but I'm not sure how it would apply to this specific use case. I know you have to use brass nozzles, and there's a risk of chlorine gas with PVC, so printing in a well ventilated area would be a necessity. Not sure if it'd be worth the trouble. I'd also be VERY interested in seeing how well some blocks for stamping sheet metal lowers would work, if for no other reason than to reinforce the plastic with an epoxy. Ie a solid lower block to stamp out a sheet metal shell to encase a plastic lower.

You're doing so much good in furthering everyone's understanding of material science and how it relates to filaments. The technical side to filaments is so fun to nerd out on. Keep it up!

That was a really good simple explanation of young's modulus and the yield point.

Great video! We absolutely need more of this in the community please keep doing more testing like this!

Fantastic tests and results, looking forward to the continuation

In wood working they use a heat activated resin. A popular brand in Cactusjuice. The wood is submerged in the resin then placed in a vacuum chamber. Sometimes it is cycled between vac and pressure. Once the wood stops bubbling it is removed and wrapped in foil. It is then heated to about 250F until the resin is cured. I wonder if a good wipe down of the exterior of a 3d printed part would maintain it's measurements. Another process is with Boiled Linseed Oil instead of resin. I allow BLO wood to air cure. I've never used heat cured resin.

@spencerbookman2523

Жыл бұрын

I second the boiled linseed oil idea. I'm dubious about inpregnating petroleum based oil into plastic (maybe unfoundedly). Try annealing/inpregnating with a high smoke point vegetable oil.

@chemistryofquestionablequa6252

Жыл бұрын

I just commented the same thing about linseed oil, lol

@STR33TZK1NG

Жыл бұрын

So would you just drop the print into the BLO? I'm going to try this soon.

excellent information as usual. always the most interesting research from this channel.

That’s a clever idea…

Really cool primary data. Keep up the good work!

Would be super interested to see this test repeated with the parts soaked in a hydrophobic liquid like what can be applied to tents, outdoor furniture, etc. Great work, as always!

Excellent video! As always!

Fantastic testing, thanks!

Very interesting information! I really hope, YT doesn't nuke this channel. There's so much knowledge on here. Have you ever really tried ASA? I overlooked this material, because of needing a heated chamber to not warp too much. However it has very good mechanical properties. Impact resistence seems to be good, heat resistence is great, it has almost no creeping and is UV resistent.

@HoffmanTactical

Жыл бұрын

I have used a little ASA, and a ton of ABS, all in the past. They are similar, ASA being more UV resistant. Both materials have good impact resistance, but poor tensile strength and layer adhesion. At least in my testing and experiences. I would almost always use a PC blend over ABS, though there are exceptions.

@JackRudawski

Жыл бұрын

ASA does work but like Hoffman tactical said, not as strong/as good layer adhesions. PC blends use ASA or ABS in conjunction with PC to increase the tensile strength, might be worth looking into. Also polymaker makes a PC-ABS blend specifically.

@uhu4677

Жыл бұрын

@@HoffmanTactical Indeed. Just checked some test results, and ASA seems to have not so great layer adhesion (better than ABS though). However the ASA from eSun had pretty good results in the test by Igor from "My Tech Fun". Sadly availability in Germany seems to be bad for that one. But I will try the extrudr ASA soon.

I would love to see a clear lower using something like clear pctg / pc /xt, cnc kitchen has recently uploaded a video on how to get glass like quality from a fdm printer with thick walls. I think it would be a good idea to be able to show people where the wear spots are and you can even see internal stresses.

Fantastic research!!

Got a great science lesson in materials today. Most excellent!!!

Love the video. Looking forward to the next. Would love to see if there is some other substances which would impregnate the nylon (or at least provide a durable coating) to prevent moisture absorption.

Have you heard of stabilizing resin? I've seen it used to do basically the same thing for woodworking or arts & crafts. They use a pressure pot or vacuum chamber to remove air and replace with resin and then they cure the parts in an oven to harden it.

@chemistryofquestionablequa6252

Жыл бұрын

Good idea!

@mattbiek

Жыл бұрын

I was just thinking if you put it in cactus juice and then annealed it that the heat would anneal it and the cactus juice would stabilize it and that might be a good solution you beat me to it

@Tunkkis

Жыл бұрын

@@mattbiek Why cactus juice specifically?

@swegmastur614

Жыл бұрын

@@Tunkkis he just likes cacti

@swegmastur614

Жыл бұрын

@@Tunkkis no but seriously it's just a brand

nice descriptions of youngs modulus, this is as good as a colledge course :)

The pressured/forced impregnation is a great variable. My brain is in search mode for additional materials to test. Fundamental advancements in the materials first though, then incremental.

Damn good work! Yes, I'm a nerd, because I want testing and facts, especially when coupled with thinking outside the box.

Makes sense. Maybe try using a drying oil like linseed to seal any pores or gaps in the material?

You should consider doing this in the microwave with carbon fiber filling. Carbon fiber filled materials can convert microwaves into heat, thus providing a convenient avenue for controlled heating.

@HoffmanTactical

Жыл бұрын

Though it might be hard to fine tune the temp.

@rustythefoxcoon5143

3 ай бұрын

Nahhhhh just get one that spins the food! Totally work! XD Actually I think what would be cool is an oversized receiver to see if it’s even possible to anneal it to proper spec.

here in dry colorado brittle zip ties are a real problem.... that i never had on the east coast..... Since the most strain occures during installation I soak them in warm water for a few minutes before installation. I'll go set up a storage test now... oil treated vs not, and check in a few months

Good video 👍

Vacuum drying may help. Vacuum annealing may help too. You can use a pressure cooker and a cheap vacuum pump. Vacuum may also allow more oil to be drawn in on those samples

Consider a alcohol bath baseline for testing. Ethyl Alcohol will quickly repel any moisture content...

@TuttleScott

Жыл бұрын

it'll evaporate very quickly

15:16 Your explanation about oil being a competitive plasticizer (displacing water) makes sense, but I suspect that this trend could otherwise be due to differences in crystallinity (i.e. annealing degree-of-completion). Oil has higher thermal conductivity and higher specific heat than air, so it's possible that the samples in oil were slightly more crystalline, due to somewhat more effective annealing.

You should try linseed oil, it’s a drying oil and used to season cast iron cookware to make a non-stick coating. The oil molecules dry to form a polymer. Extremely tough and slick. Maybe anneal in linseed oil, wipe “dry”, and let sit for a week or two before testing.

@DanielHJeffery

Жыл бұрын

Noted - someone else mentioned already. Would love to see a test!

Some type of sealer, like a dip in thin cyanoacrylate might work but it'll mess up all the tolerances between parts.

@HoffmanTactical

Жыл бұрын

Yes, and I'd also be concerned with the glue pealing off.

In addition to adding pressure, it would be interesting to see what "penetrating oils" like kroil oil would do. It may be possible to force something that dries/cures to be water resistant into the nylon, like certain wood finishes, after diluting with a solvent. .

I suspect the oil is only surface treating the nylon to create a water barrier. the heat and pressure annealing might force it in deeper but I dont see it working any better and might even make it weaker. it might be interesting to try the high temp and pressure annealing with light weight hydrocarbon gasses to see if new polymers are formed.

@HoffmanTactical

Жыл бұрын

That was a suspicion of mine, but I did clean the oil off the surface of the samples before water absorption, and they appeared after the two weeks to be the same as the other samples, but for the odor of the oil. So I don't think it was a surface coating only.

Cool. Very interesting to see these results. Thx for the vid! BTW, what’s the best way to support your channel? Utreon?

Polymaker pla pro in terms of ease of use, mechanical properties, and price is a damn powerhouse. Yeah heat resistance is a problem but there are some remedies for that.

@Hoffman Tactical 👉 It would be interesting to test coating test pieces with (a) Renaissance Wax; and (b) Turtle Wax 53409 Hybrid Solutions Ceramic Spray Coating.

You should try nylon 12 instead. Has far lower moisture absorption. Would be interesting to compare.

This has me wondering how the parts would hold up if coated in spray on silicone lubricant. Although slippery, it is remarkable in terms of waterproofing. For something like an AR lower where friction is largely irrelevant it could be a viable means of prolonging the effect of the aneeling.

Try using a pressure cooker as a vessel. Warm up the pan of the cooker with oil in it, then drop the parts in. Cap and hook up to an AC Vacuum pump. Vacuum down to .500 microns. then allow to go to atmospheric. Attach nitrogen source and pressure to cooker max. Leave for the time you want. Pressure cookers are handy for industrial uses.

What do you think of using a hard watery paint or varnish that acts similarly to tung oil or boiled linseed oil? I think that the penetrating action would keep water out even with scratches and gauges, and the hardening action would maybe either increase wear resistance or strength/rigidity. There's this stuff called cactus juice which is used to stabilize wood and other natural materials, and has a curing temperature of 175-205, within the range of Nylons.

Thanks for the tests! Some thoughts, Please test the PA12-CF with PA6-CF directly from Polymaker as well. It'll be a good and more direct 1:1 comparison and will help compound the fact that moisture affects nylon. Also, perhaps test a super strong nylon filament, such as atomic nuclear nylon with moisture as well. I know it hasn't the best layer adhesion, but it will be interesting to see how moisture affects a super stiff/strong nylon to begin with.

@HoffmanTactical

Жыл бұрын

I've got all three Nylons, so testing them is on the menu.

@Shep01

Жыл бұрын

it's proprietary but most agree its some kinda glassfilled nylon.. probably a nylon12 Now good luck finding nylon12-gf.. its there but good luck. Also printing. nylons quite the pain to do right.

@dependablekit5500

Жыл бұрын

@@Shep01 well if I can find anything that can permanently bond to the frame like the structure epoxy I am using now I would definitely give it a try the stuff I am using now has been pretty durable so far and I am going to offer a beavertail stippling and Cerakote service soon

@Shep01

Жыл бұрын

@@dependablekit5500 epoxy would definitely bond to a nylon frame(especially if you clean and roughed it up first). And for that area of the gun it would be very strong. Good luck.

@Nicksperiments

Жыл бұрын

The closes you’re gonna get is DuPont Zytel which is allegedly what Magpul Pmags are made of. It goes by the name CoexNylex Glass Filled Nylon these days. There hasn’t been any testing like has been done in this video, but in my “real world” applications, it holds up great. Feels like grip tape in your hand though but very strong and stiff

Can you do a video on your modified dehydrator that you dry filaments in? Specifically how you modified it to run continuously?

So basically what you're saying is this nylon blend with 8-10% CF rather than GF would be superior due to the added rigidity, better bridging, and better surface finish :P Some form of a thin clear coat of paint/epoxy seems to be the answer since from this baseline testing oil just isn't enough to get the rigidity of PLA+. I am curious to see the results of the PA12 CF nylon. Hopefully it's impact resistance isn't too low compared to pla+ or nylon 6 or 6/6 to be unusable. Impact resistance and layer adhesion are usually the points of failure with FDM printing in general.

Oil can degrade some plastics. I used to work in injection molding. One of the major quality concerns was lubricating oil, grease, or hydraulic oil leaking onto the chutes or conveyors that carried the molded parts out of the machines.

@HoffmanTactical

Жыл бұрын

That may be why the dry oil annealed samples where a little weaker.

would be interesting to see what happens when you use a Heated Vacuum chamber to anneel the nylon in oil. i dont think pressure helps a lot to impregnate it. i would rather use a vacuum Nontheless, thanks for your tests :) great video!

13:16 Having a small plastic deformation limit is not particularly a good thing because that means when it fails, it fails quickly. This means there is little to no warning before a catastrophic failure where as a material that has a greater ultimate to yield ratio will fail more safely.

try annealing in Argon Atmosphere this is the proper gas for annealing Nylon.. do you have the temp increase Data and max temp hold times with decrease temp data?? first time seen some one trying to anneal Nylon correctly also sand support for complex shapes to help hold it's form works nice :) doing it in Argon rather then the oil preventing those pores and valleys from filling in, this is why the air one will be stronger at first these are getting filled in but there is still water in the air effecting the material as it exits those pores as well, also a lot of oils still absorb trace amounts of water soooo you might want to be aware of that (hygroscopic to a point before they start separating) any who if you don't have that data I should have it around here some whare

@HoffmanTactical

Жыл бұрын

Unfortunately, my annealing set up is a bit too basic for this!

Could you anneal and soak in one of those hydrophobic materials for nylon fabrics?

thinking about linseed oil but then though what would be better than an oxygen activated resin would be a 2 part epoxy. put finished prints in the more liquidy/less viscus 2 part epoxy for an hour or two, then paint on the freshly mixxed 2 part expoxy, maybe with a drop of extra hardener if u have one of those types with the hardener catalyst seperate. just thinking, very good research and presentation.

you beat me too it, I was going to suggest trying the PA12. it would also be interesting to see polymaker CO PA. a couple thoughts on this setup....I'm no expert on nylons and moisture absorbsion, but I thought I read that the water that is absorbed forms a chemical bond with the nylon which acts as a plasticizer which is why the toughness seems to increase as moisture is absorbed. so when the term "absorbed" is used I guess the water is being chemically absorbed. I wonder how the oil is "absorbed" in the nylon. my guess is that it's mechanically coating the nylon and preventing water from being chemically absorbed of that makes any sense.... just hypothesizing here. another though is.... does the sample size (physical size of the sample) here matter? if you have a 1" thick slab of printed nylon, is the inside of that slab absorbing moistire? or are the few mm outside layers absorbing and protecting what is inside. maybe print a 1-2 mm sidewall thickness container, print and dry a sample, put inside the nylon box for a few weeks, see if moisture works it's way through the box or not? I would imagine a lot of cross sections of reviewers are thicker than your test sample, maybe the inner portions of thick members stay dry and stronger

Commenting mainly to sacrifice to the algorithm gods. Very interesting. Thanks, Tim.

Have you looked into salt annelling(remelting) ? It's said to improve a part drastically. Would love to see if it would be better or worse than air or oil annelling.

Couldn't you theoretically do the same thing in a vacuum chamber? Wouldn't the moisture vaporize under vacuum and then the oil would absorb back into the pores once it returns to atmospheric pressure?

@HoffmanTactical

Жыл бұрын

Yes. Though it will only be a pressure difference of ~15 PSI.

Hoffman, a question for you: One of the key benefits on annealing is the layer adhesion increases dramatically. Have you seen or done any studies on that? I think post-anneal strength would be a big factor for print orientation.

Do you have a pdf or doc of this data and graphs for us to do some experiments ourselves and compare data? What was the humidity of the day? I live in a similar state and the humidity is similar. Would a dry room make a difference? Would you say your prints were exposed to sunlight while drying/absorbing? Would a different weight of oil make a difference you think?

Has anyone tried using something like Cactus Juice (polymer) to eliminate water absorption? It's normally used to stabilize wood. Normally you put the dried material in a vacuum chamber with the cactus juice and then cure it in an oven at 220F.

Have you tested resin impreganted prints? I've been impregnating receivers but haven't been able to test how much strength it might add.

I wonder if the oil being impregnated into the nylon also makes it slipperier, kinda like how adding graphite into bushing makes better bushings

My main issue with these types of test (and well most studies in general) is the lack of ability to eliminate or properly account for possible causes like UV light or the extra heat cycle degrading the material.

@HoffmanTactical

Жыл бұрын

Yes, makes it tricky. However, I have not found small exposer to either of these to create any appreciable effect on material strength. Long term UV, certainly.

Thank you. Exceptional. Is the a place to donate? This work is more than a couple hardware kits worth. Confirmed my own informal observations without having to do do my own testing. I really feel I'm not going to get the properties I want, until I liquid cool my steppers, move most electronics outside the cabinet and go with PEEK printing. There just isn't anything in the lower heat ranges with the intersection of heat rejection, strength and toughness.

@HoffmanTactical

Жыл бұрын

PEEK is really strong! But getting good layer adhesion is going to be challenging I bet.

@owenminor

Жыл бұрын

@@HoffmanTactical Vision Miner channel has done some really awesome work on high temp materials and posted it on KZread. Check it out.

I like how he printed this out on a 4x6 shipping label printer :)

@HoffmanTactical

Жыл бұрын

I love that little printer.

@zomie1

Жыл бұрын

@@HoffmanTactical lol only another small business owner would recognize it :)

There is a general misconception how the water absorption of nylon/polyamides works, that's why the oil idea failed. Nylon does not have "pores" that trap water, nylon chemically bonds with the hydrogen atoms of water molecules. So we look at many many magnitudes of size difference than what was expected to happen. The "oil annealing" likely only showed a wet-difference because the oil was still coating it partly, reducing water uptake so the "oil samples" were just more dry than their competitors at the time of testing. For the best strength of mechnical parts, you could try a laminating approach. Print nylon and another hydrophobic material in alternating layers. This sandwitches the nylon into the print making it almost impossible to absorb water in the projected lifetime of that part. The delay in printing should be acceptable, as the whole layer can be printed with one nozzle each time.

Possibly dumb question, but would you be able to slow down the moisture absorption through a coating of some kind?

Tim, are you using a dryer set up for the Nylon like the Sunlu S2?

Giving the nylon some sort of coating to protect it from moisture might be worth trying.

is polymaker pla pro better than the esun pla+? wondering what the meta is at the moment.

i wander what oil + vaccumm chamber would do

Have you tryed Nylon 12? It absorbs less than half of moisture compared to Nylon 6

Okay I’m actually incredibly stupid and can’t seem to follow anything in any video that Tim explains the technicals. He’s probably doing a fine job but like I said my brain can never keep up with graphs and such. I have multiple of Tim’s lowers printed out of Push Plastic CF Nylons. I’ve never annealed them. They have been sitting inside and rarely put any rounds through so far. #1 Would annealing them now do anything helpful or is it something you have to do immediately after printing? #2 is it bad if my nylon isn’t stored in a dry box but I always dry it hours before printing and seems to print beautifully if done that way. #3 is annealing 100% needed for my lowers.

Have you tried annealing the PLA+ to see if it increases the heat resistance?

Maybe I missed the detail, but did you do anything to the PLA pro with humidity or not? I don't think PLA is a sponge the way nylon is but I wonder if it would have a measurable effect.

@HoffmanTactical

Жыл бұрын

I did not. I've never noticed a significant change in PLA after exposure to water, I've let samples sit out in the past with no measurable change.

These FDM fiber composites appear to me to put additional shear on the layer interface. Lots of tests on KZread verify tensile strength across layers, but what about bending loads? If you make a beam with the layers stacked vertically, each layer is inelastic and they'll try to slip against each other in shear. Like an indoor plywood left outdoors so the glue becomes weaker than the layers, bending the sheet will cause the layers to delaminate. A bent-till-broken Nylon-CF piece can actually look like broken plywood. The strong layers actually concentrate this shear into the layer interface. So I'm curious how a bending test would go for wet and dry nylon.

@HoffmanTactical

Жыл бұрын

I am as well.

We’re gonna need a chemist to figure out what kind of oil might actually improve things. I have a feeling the stuff is not likely to be safe to handle.

Want to test, do non polar solvents dissolve plastic, how much each plastic dissolves, is there a non polar solvent designed for and effective at not dissolving plastic? Thanks

@HoffmanTactical

Жыл бұрын

That would be a petty extensive test!

What machine are you using to dry your filament?

Kind of makes me wonder what the results would be if you Treated printed nylon part with penetrating epoxy rather than oil? I am thinking about printing some parts for my boat, but worried about UV for PLA+ and moisure for Nylon.

@HoffmanTactical

2 ай бұрын

Try PET-CF.

Okay, but does oil annealing actually improve the longevity of 3d printed parts? You should do a test where you take an already nylon printed oil annealed part and expose it to the Tennessee humidity over a week or so.

@HoffmanTactical

Жыл бұрын

That what what we did here ;) Results where interesting, but not enough to make it worth it. I think other oils would be much better.

I would doubt that the nylon is absorbing the oil like it does water. I think nylon absorbs water on a molecular level and if that’s true then the oil molecule would be to large to absorb into the nylon. I think that oil annealing in is just drying the nylon out a little and then coating it. If you could find a way to completely seal the nylon from water absorbing into it then I feel it would be a good material.

@HoffmanTactical

Жыл бұрын

I'm not so sure, I cleaned the outside of the nylon off and it appeared to be just like the other nylon after that. If more time / pressure does not improve the results, then you may be right. We will see!

Try linseed oil. It hardens as it is exposed to air. Be carfull though if you do. It generates heat as it reacts and hardens and might get hot enough to melt the part. also where the spontaneously combustion oily rag myth comes from.

Can you clear this up for me? Is moisture intrusion a problem with all plastics or just non homogeneous 3d printed parts? Furthermore, once a part is annealed, is it still susceptible to moisture? Lastly, would a simple coat of paint help this issue?

@HoffmanTactical

Жыл бұрын

All Nylons of this type, even molded ones, suffer from the same issue. As the testing showed, annealing had little effect. Coating the part with a waterproof barrier should help.

@user1acount

Жыл бұрын

@@HoffmanTactical Have OEM frames struggled with this before?

Humidity is realitive to temperature so a hot day at 30% might be more water than a cooler day at a lower temp. Also you need about twice as many samples before your stats really hold any actual weight. The smallest set should contain no less than 6. I know it's a pain but you'll actually get far clearer data. So the oil doesn't seem to actually degrade the plastic. Instead just isn't as strong an increase as much as letting it be dry. Those close numbers would be better if you used many more samples. However, it is still understandable why you wouldn't you've getting what it is. Send me a message if you need a statistical experiment designed is be more than happy to help you if that's something you need.

I have considered polypropylene carbon fiber but it might have too much plastic deformation.

@HoffmanTactical

Жыл бұрын

I've actually not seen that filament yet, but in general I would say that PP is too weak.

I have idé about anealing nylon for stronger parts i believe you will find highly interesting. On what platform can i get in touch with you to discuss it further?

@HoffmanTactical

Жыл бұрын

Twitter, email.

Can you use a tabletop resin to seal nylon against moisture?

@HoffmanTactical

Жыл бұрын

It might be worth trying, but you would have to find a way of impregnating it without leaving a thick layer on the surface.

I was just reminded why I did math in school 😅

Have you tried Polymaker PA6-CF? It seems to be one of the better Nylon blends on the market.

@HoffmanTactical

Жыл бұрын

I have, though not done a lot of testing. It is similar to other higher fiber content CF Nylons. Strong, prints pretty good, but rough surface finish. The PA12-CF has a lot less fiber and a really nice finish.

@vidgami46

Жыл бұрын

@@HoffmanTactical I got a decent amount of PA6-CF for my own prints, and the rough surface finish is pretty obvious. Other than being slightly uncomfortable to hold, does a rough surface have any practical downside to its function as a part?

@HoffmanTactical

Жыл бұрын

@@vidgami46 I would say no, though the higher fiber content makes it difficult to print with smaller nozzles.

Something to keep in mind is that the water absorption of nylon is on a molecular level - we're not talking about (even microscopic) 'drops' of water - we're talking about H₂O MOLECULES. Which are up to hundreds of time smaller than a typical long chain hydrocarbon oil. Oil isn't 'taking the place' of water, but it may be physically blocking it from entering molecule sized imperfections in the nylon polymer chains. Also, water is a highly polar molecule. It has strong (+) and (-) ends, which allow it to 'stick' (but not make a molecular bond) to things. Oil is a highly **NON** polar molecule. This is why water and oil don't mix and dissolve in each other. So... oil isn't going to "take the place of" potentially absorbed water. It may perhaps only minimally physically block it. This can also be bad if you use solvents for cleaning, you may also be washing away the oil that was physically blocking the areas where water could be absorbed. So (2)... a 'thinner' oil may in fact be better. WD-40, originally named for it's "Water Displacement" properties is nearly as thin and runny as water. Might be worth a try. Something like kerosene or naphtha may work similarly, too Also (2)... Even though (plain) annealed nylon is 'weaker' and more elastic than PLA Pro it may still be "good enough" to function safely in a firearm. Wet, but previously annealed, nylon may have a high enough impact resistance (due to it's increased elasticity) to make up for it's lower tensile strength. I can't help but think of brand name commercial polymer framed firearms - they use glass filled nylon almost exclusively. There has to be a reason for that. Granted, injection molding produces a far different final product than additive manufactured, 3D printed plastic and most of the injection molded firearm frames use something closer to nylon 12 rather than nylon 6. Nylon 6 is much more effected by moisture than nylon 12.

@HoffmanTactical

Жыл бұрын

Great write up. I think PA12 has a lot of potential, testing that next.

Aye u forgot to say the area under the stress-strain curve is equal to the toughness, or energy required to break the material. I wonder if the wet nylons are actualy tougher somehow (the areas in ur graphs looked slightly larger).

@chase6428

Жыл бұрын

O yea and good work!

@HoffmanTactical

Жыл бұрын

Yes, and I also use my impact tester for toughness. While I've not tested the dry Nylons yet, I think it's safe to say that the wet Nylons will be much tougher. However, that does not matter if they are not stiff enough!

Are you gonna try “Liquid-Glass” Sodium Silicate?

@HoffmanTactical

Жыл бұрын

This was suggested to me, and I think I will try it as well.

@MikeJones-mf2rt

Жыл бұрын

@@HoffmanTactical Was me who suggested it on insta 😂🤙🏻 just on the wrong KZread account right now. Works excellently for tubee22 barrel, I can’t wait to see where you take the idea! Would love to get an SOT on board to test how silicate-impregnated suppressor baffles/housings hold up! If you already have a vacuum chamber for filament drying, I’d be interested in seeing difference in silicate penetration depth for atmospheric vs pressure too! Also, silane coupling agents are definitely worth looking into here, most commonly/easily found in “Automotive Adhesion Promoter”. Idea is to create covalent bond between plastic and glass in which the glass absorbs inside of the nylon fibers and permanently fuses together, meaning impacts that shatter the glass would only do-so contained *inside* of the nylon while the nylon retains shape and the coupling agent retains the covalent bond which keeps the glass particles fused to the plastic, resulting in significantly increased heat deflection and some added rigidity from the glass without sacrificing flexural-modulus/impact-resistance/elasticity properties of the nylon. Potentially could even allow-for printing unfilled nylon and more-or-less converting it to what essentially amounts to glass-fill during post-processing, which would alleviate layer-adhesion concerns with printing pre-filled glass filament. The only unknown variable would be particle grain size, but adaptive grain size depending on directions of applied forces during end-use might actually be of greater benefit, and grain size could be determined by just burning the print until all that’s left is glass and then contacting professors at a local college/university about transmission electron microscopy, which most will be happy to help you with for free if they have the equipment on hand.

While injection molded nylon is “annealed by steam” to improve strength, 3dp community is trying to dry it in order to keep it brittle is interesting. Usage? Or layer adhesion issue?

@HoffmanTactical

11 ай бұрын

Injection molded Nylon parts don't seem to have the same issues we do with water. It's interesting for sure. We are not keeping things "brittle", we are trying to keep them stiff. Less impact resistant for sure, but not fragile or brittle.

Wondering how much of a difference in test results there'd be for PA12CF? I sell brackets for the land surveying industry and have a current order for Puerto Rico, was wondering if annealing would help with the longevity of my parts, or just be a waste of valuable material testing things out.

@HoffmanTactical

Жыл бұрын

In my testing annealing helped reduce the creep of PA12-CF by a significant amount. But you must consider Z axis shrinkage.

@ej732

Жыл бұрын

@@HoffmanTactical Im concerned with reliability and rigidity than anything. I mean its layered plastic no matter what you do, its greatest strength is its greatest weakness.

WHy wouldn't you use PA12 nylon? It's better in every single way.

@HoffmanTactical

Жыл бұрын

I am, great stuff.

At the cut around the 10.5 minute mark he goes full nerd mouth breather mode.. I like that better than the try-hard before then

does the pla pro absorb moisture and become weaker as well?

@HoffmanTactical

7 ай бұрын

Nope.

Why do one need nylon if it becomes less tensile than PLA even after annealing?

@HoffmanTactical

5 ай бұрын

Temperature resistance.

You need to write a thesis on 3D printing and get the PhD you deserve.

@HoffmanTactical

Жыл бұрын

Degrees are of no value to me ;)

What temperature did you anneal the nylon in the oil bath at?

@HoffmanTactical

5 ай бұрын

185 F or there about.

so if i watched this correct, nylon printed parts will weaken when exposed to open air to the point of being less strong than PLA+?

@HoffmanTactical

Жыл бұрын

In many cases, yes.

@dennisvojcomedy1346

11 ай бұрын

@HoffmanTactical so do you keep your finished stuff In a dry box or just leave out and reprint as needed?

@HoffmanTactical

11 ай бұрын

@@dennisvojcomedy1346 Oh no, I simply avoid filaments that have this issue. Unless I ant a rubbery part.

So if water is a problem why not just paint the parts after you print them?

@HoffmanTactical

Жыл бұрын

Paint adds thickness, and will wear off.

@skylersmall6322

Жыл бұрын

@@HoffmanTactical Ah, fair point. Thank you for the reply. I guess in my mind 3d printed firearms aren't meant to have a long service life. Once the process is perfected I see the receivers as being consumables. Ultimately the entire rifle is a tool that will wear out. The part about 3d printing that entices me is that you have the ability to replace the parts somewhat cheap and in a timely manner.