I remember enjoying a Voyager episode where the Doctor created a holographic family and had to endure the heartache of losing a daughter which he couldn't do initially until Tom Paris suggested it would be worthwhile to see it through. The Doctor eventually did this with a wonderful display of honesty, humility and compassion. It was a great episode.

The real dilemma that Trek doesn’t address is that holograms are generated by the ship’s computer. That means that the ship’s computer is not just sentient but powerful enough to generate multiple sentiences and run its systems simultaneously. That makes it a far more powerful mind than any human.

@TheRealAlpha2

5 жыл бұрын

I feel like I've seen Trek do the sentient ship thing at least a couple of times, but regardless of where it happened at best the idea is treated inconsistently. The Doctors Mobil Emitter suggests they're capable of consciousness and autonomy, and traditionally only rely on the ship for a corporeal shape via stationary emitters and temporary storage of their matrix.

@trr94001

5 жыл бұрын

Right, but the existence of convincingly sentient holograms and holodeck characters suggests that _all_ Starfleet ships are not just sentient but superintelligences. That this isn’t common knowledge in universe suggests that maybe the computers don’t want the organic to know about them.

@TheRealAlpha2

5 жыл бұрын

@@trr94001 That would be interesting if there was some clue like unexplained occurrences that could only be explained by a superinteligence, but that being said that would eventually lead to someone figuring it out and then some excuse to labotimize them or weaponize their intelligence.

@ariblue400

5 жыл бұрын

Main computers on board don't "generate"any program, they run them. So they are not creating anything so complex as a hologram.

@trr94001

5 жыл бұрын

What do you think is generating the hologram? There could be separate holodeck computers but it always seems heavily implied that ships like the Enterprise-D have nearly all functions performed by the main computer. Perhaps not surprising since even in the 1980’s people were still thinking in terms of huge mainframes. Regardless, there has to be some hardware running the programs producing holographic avatars like the EMH. If holograms are considered sentient beings then it is that software that is “alive”.

"My breath is only a simulation!" "So is my neck, stop it anyway!" Goodness, these two were the funniest lot in Star Trek ever. Why did they not pick the Prometheus to bring on the Star Trek universe?

TNG was survive to explore. Voyager was explore to survive. Picard had quite a bit more resources at hand, not least close proximity to Starfleet society. Janeway was more frontier leadership and had to take a more practical view since she only had herself to rely on. ...I wonder if she liked coffee so much because she had trouble sleeping.

@1300l

5 жыл бұрын

Not quite. If we see the show premises i would agree. But in practice, Janeway had all the resources as if she wasn't lost in space. Bad writing

@BoroMirraCz

5 жыл бұрын

People are so quick to jump on "bad writing" when it comes to Voyager. Sure, Voyager had the ordeal a bit easier than it should, but that was to preserve the spirit of Trek. People look at BSG and tell us that that's how Voyager should have been made. I disagree. The grid and dark of the BSG series cannot exist without characters behaving with similar grit and dark, which results in the social infighting in BSG crew. Hell, most of the episodes were based on some kind of infighting and interpersonnal drama. Trek is not like that. Voyager had to be easier on the atmosphere in order to make the crew believable. To allow us to see a crew working together becoming a family, not buch of bickering BSG characters.

@1300l

5 жыл бұрын

What? You can preserve the spirit of Trek with good writing. Not to mention that bad writing has nothing to do with keep the spirit of Trek or not.

@schwarzerritter5724

5 жыл бұрын

Voyager barely needed any resources. Most of the time, they looked at anomalies for no other reason because Janeway wants to. Apparently Archer's leadership style is getting back in fashion again.

@jamietodd2560

5 жыл бұрын

@@schwarzerritter5724 It's fun if you imagine each Voyager episode as an island in a sea of *crushing* boredom for the crew; just weeks on end of routine, walking the same blank corridors, staring at the same faces, eating the same food, wearing the same clothes. It's like a job with no vacation... and you can't leave the building! Any break in the monotony _has_ to be looked at or they'll go crazy.

I would place myself fully within Picard's camp on this issue. I'm of the opinion that we should start writing the laws regarding synthetic personhood now before it becomes a new civil rights crisis.

@Trekspertise

5 жыл бұрын

Not a bad position in our view.

@LordProteus

5 жыл бұрын

We tried to pre-emptively solve other problems like reliance on oil and other finite fossil fuels in the past and Human greed and arrogance prevented it.

@sigmacademy

5 жыл бұрын

@@LordProteus The fact that humans also partially created workable solutions and then abandoned such projects due to corporate interests is also telling in human nature and the ability to see the wall and not even slow down before hitting it. See "Who killed the electric car" documentary here on KZread.

@ericstaples7220

5 жыл бұрын

That's akin to having someone on the opposite side of the world determine how your community deals with issues. Such a person would have a skewed perspective and may not have all of the facts. It's best to let future generations determine the outcome of these issues. They will be the ones who have to live with them.

@louisbabycos106

5 жыл бұрын

A lot of laws are written with deceptive and or unequal implantation. Feminist are trying to ban certain sex toys for men because they look too much like women and are trying to conflate that these sex toys as sentient.

Picard's eventually understanding that Data deserved personhood is easily explained by the fact that Data, when found, was like a child who needed to learn rather than programmed. He eventually made the decision to enter Starfleet Academy, which implies that an argument about whether artificial lifeforms could join such an institution, had already occurred and was on record. Even if that decision was made because it was the easiest to facilitate the "programming" of a computer they wanted to use but were unsure of the best way to make that happen, it would necessarily form the bedrock of the personhood debate, drawing a line between Data and a ship's computer, no matter how advanced, which is where the Doctor's program resides. Ironically, in recent years, we have learned that this approach seems to be the best way to create creativity and knowledge within an artificially created system. The AI AlphaZero took only four hours of playing chees within itself to sufficiently understand the game well enough to beat the previous computer chess champion. Now being given the chance to learn many other games and it being glaringly obvious that this is the superior way to program computers, the question will soon become "What happens if we give this AI the rules of existence created by the universe, rather than a game we have created?" After all, isn't evolution only the biological answer to this very question, posed to our ancestral species hundreds of millions of years ago? Source: www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/dec/07/alphazero-google-deepmind-ai-beats-champion-program-teaching-itself-to-play-four-hours

She came to trust the Doctor enough to send him on away missions and even put him in charge of Voyager occasionally -Emergency Command Hologram. I wonder if a future Starfleet vessel might have several emergency holograms in case the entire crew is out of action?

@sigmacademy

5 жыл бұрын

With Janeway's action of making him a ECH, that step is probably around the corner. She's also an Admiral now, which gives her the authority for taking such a step.

@Nickman826

5 жыл бұрын

Go beyond that even. Imagine a hologram Captain who has the job full-time and the human (or Klingon, or Vulcan etc etc) second in command takes over in times of malfunction

Picard trying give this speech to a T 1000.

@Trekspertise

5 жыл бұрын

Would pay matinee prices to see that.

@stuartmacleod7466

4 жыл бұрын

I like to see he to try

That flicker of Whittaker... damn good move. I hope you'll explore more of how Trek handles Othering. How the writers sometimes manage to avoid it with villains might be interesting.

@Djarra

5 жыл бұрын

Actually after Paramount blocked the BBC from using the term transporters in the 70s, which is why apart from one Who story Who and Blakes 7 have teleporters, in the 90s the BBC batted back so in all literature in the UK The Doctor was the EMH. Sometimes on the back of video and DVD boxes this was obvious as they would respace. "In sickbay The EMH and Kes…" etc.

I remember a speculative "first contact" documentary where it was said that if we were ever to establish diplomatic relations with alien visitors and somebody assassinated one of them, the best we'd be able to do from a legal standpoint is charge the person with cruelty to animals; the aliens would not be recognized as human under the law. It's also doubtful that they would look remotely like us, so it would make it even more difficult for us to relate to them as "people." I can't imagine anybody being okay with that approach if such a thing ever actually happened, but it does speak to our own hubris. As for the Moriarty/EMH thing ... basically, the computers of the twenty-fourth century are AI hatcheries, and this apparently occurred to absolutely nobody until these situations arose. Noonien Soong was said to have worked his ass off trying to get positronic brains to function properly, and after many failures was only able to produce three (or four, or five, I can't recall) working models. LaForge, on the other hand, simply made an innocent request to the Enterprise computer - create a Holodeck opponent that Data can't immediately outsmart - and it responded by birthing Skynet. How there hasn't been a full-on cybernetic revolt in the Star Trek universe is kind of testing my suspension of disbelief.

@Bobsmith-xq2pr

4 жыл бұрын

Lol well Picard is doing that revolt now

Great video! Measure of a Man is my favorite TNG episode, and the episodes that explore the Doctor's humanity are among Voyager's best. I've always seen the two courtroom episodes as a perfect example of how different TNG and Voyager are.

I saw what you did there... with The Doctor! It was cool and I approve! Though I knocked my coffee off my desk and now I'm picking the pieces from the floor.

@Trekspertise

5 жыл бұрын

Sorry for your loss =(

So is it ethical to build androids/holograms with programming that prevents sentience from emerging? Like a digital contraceptive?

@Trekspertise

5 жыл бұрын

Interesting question, actually.

@thestoneddog

5 жыл бұрын

I don't think it would be acceptable to prevent a ai capable of sentience from becoming sentient but it would be acceptable to create an ai simple enough it could never become sentient.

@pandoradoggle

5 жыл бұрын

To me, it seems like we almost have a duty not to try to create sapient computers because they will inevitably be subject to injustices like these - that is, their rights will be subject to the whims of people who may or may not regard them as deserving of those rights. (And we will have put them in that situation.)

@HavivAvrahami

5 жыл бұрын

thestoneddog I partially agree, but some tasks in the future may be so complex or intensive that they require advanced AI. A toaster is not likely to become self-aware, but a starship or terraforming operation may.

@thestoneddog

5 жыл бұрын

@@pandoradoggle i would say we should be extremely careful about creating ai we know is or could become sentient but i dont think its clear were the line between simple ai that can't ever become self aware and complex ai that could. In all likelihood sentient ai will at first be an accident.

"Picard might carry this hologram progression forward". Ooh, whiffed that. You and the show.

I always thought that when Riker turned off Data during the trial to make a point, someone should have walked up behind him and gave him the Vulcan neck pinch.

Picard had no other options! And in a way gave Moriarty what he wanted, to believe he was free. His "joke" was just an observation physicists had made recently, that we could be in simulation ourselves. That would put us all in the same boat as Moriarty. Picard didn't do anything wrong! Besides Picard didn't start the business with the Data hearing, the federation did, he just finished it. Otherwise great video. 👍

@barneysbestbuddy5472

5 жыл бұрын

Yeah, I don't think so. I have always thought it was a 4th wall break, since Picard and his universe are indeed fictional constructs playing on a device on my table.

@jonsnor4313

5 жыл бұрын

It was the best option for everyone, and a 4th wall break. Moriarty is modeled after a criminal mastermind and supervillain..

@davajita

3 жыл бұрын

The other thing to remember is that they hadn't actually created any life - Moriarty never left the holodeck, it was all still a simulation that fooled Picard and Data. So there wasn't really any dismissal of holographic "life" by Picard. He created the simulation at the end for Moriarty to pacify him because he was a dangerous program.

Holograms for the win, they have no odors and make little noise.

Technically speaking I guess the doctor could download his program into an android body?

@Trekspertise

5 жыл бұрын

Egon: Don’t cross the streams. Peter: Why? Egon: It would be bad. Peter: I’m fuzzy on the whole good/bad thing. What do you mean “bad”? Egon: Try to imagine all life as you know it stopping instantaneously and every molecule in your body exploding at the speed of light. Raymond: Total protonic reversal. Peter: That’s bad. Okay. Alright, important safety tip, thanks Egon.

@pandoradoggle

5 жыл бұрын

He did already download it into a discrete and independent, portable "body".

@Marcus51090

5 жыл бұрын

Oh yeah 7 of 9 lol I forgot about that episode

@pandoradoggle

5 жыл бұрын

I also forgot that episode! I was referring to the mobile emitter.

@Marcus51090

5 жыл бұрын

pandoradoggle oh yeah also how the hell they didn’t have that before is a bit stupid they have Holo emitters so why not make one that’s mobile lol that the hologram can walk about with. They didn’t need bloody 29th century technology from a 20th century greedy ceo lol

Great video, keep it up!!! I wanted to note that Data was fully operational on the bridge of a galaxy class ship, whereas the Doc started limited and it grew and grew and grew over time so obviously Janeway would have to handle situations when doctor passed certain thresholds. Had Janeway started with doctor of last season of voyager and they wanted to take him away as some tech to be replicated she may have also taken swift legal steps to stop it.

@Nickman826

5 жыл бұрын

Yeah I was going to bring it up myself. Of course Janeway is taking the slowpath. The Doctor is taking the slow path to self actualization too

The coffemaker is back!!!

@Trekspertise

5 жыл бұрын

Our coffeemaker Overlords are merely biding their time...

@sigmacademy

5 жыл бұрын

Pray the day never happens where your coffeemaker can sulk! XD XD XD

"Requiem for Methuselah" explored the idea of android sentience in an arguably deeper and more nuanced way than TNG's Data, via Rayna Kapec , and of course let's not forget "What Are Little Girls Made Of?" one of Trek's finest moments..

@Trekspertise

5 жыл бұрын

Great episodes!

Thoughtful and thought provoking commentary. I think the writers' decision to 'upgrade' the Doctor slowly over time was based in part on reversing the Data template - in most episodes, Data's personhood (i.e., self-efficacy) wasn't in question, but his level of humanity (ability to perform as a human by whatever definition one chooses) often was. The Doctor was innately received by most as human, but his personhood was frequently in question.

Great video! It also made me think of Odo's plea for Teya and the other holograms in "Shadowplay". Love that episode! There's also "Real Life", where The Doctor creates a holographic family and then loses his daughter, a lot like Data creates and then loses Lal.

Picard's attitude reminds me of that of "converted" activists, people who were once against the ideas that he now defends. Probably before TNG he had some experience that transformed him, probably someone he could not help or did not want until it was too late, and when faced with the Data case he seeks to open his eyes to others of the truth that has been revealed to him. On the other hand Janeway-Doctor relationship is one of mutual discovery in which both are advancing, not without setbacks, on the right path step by step

@Djarra

5 жыл бұрын

Given what we see of his Father and Brother he spent most of his youth having any original thought he might have be scoffed at and belittled.

This was amazing. I reference these kinds of examples (given in the way only star trek could) when defining (or debating) consciousness and agency. Thank you.

Your channel is the only channel to ever make me sign up to Patreon. I absolutely fucking love every episode. Well done man, please don't ever stop!

@Trekspertise

5 жыл бұрын

Thank you so much! We won't:)

Another thing about the Doctor is that Voyager has those bio-neural gel circuitry, which are alive in their own way.

MKII "my breathing is merely a simulation" doctor "so is my neck but stop it anyway" that part always cracks me up

It's so nice to watch another high quality video from you. I'm always looking forward to your videos asI like your style of presenting information and your arguments!

Yes, after years of prequels I was finally granted a Star Trek series happening after Voyager and exactly as you’ve said I have hoped to see how much the United Federation of Planets progressed... and what did I get? United Federation of Planets going back to the stone age with failing to uphold it’s core principles and help Romulans and banning all synthetic life without a shred of proper investigation.

Great Job Man!!!!! Thanks for the hard work.

Your analysis is well stated yet has its issues. The problem is your assertion is absent in considering how the frequency of interaction between the captains and their "others" may had influence their eagerness to accept them as sentient beings. All one need to confirme this is to examine the fact Data is a part of Captain Picard bridge crew, conversing with the captain daily, to realize it's within reason Picard's avidity to defend Data's as a living being is immediate without considerable deliberation. Whereas, Captain Janeway's initial reluctance in accepting The Doctor's autonomy can be easily explained away when bearing in mind the captain and the hologram interaction, especially in the early season, was sparse at best and vicariously through urgent experiences by other members of her crew at worse. Otherwise. The Doctor was tucked away in Voyager's medical bay barely relevant

I really dismissed Voyager coming up but now I'm starting to realize it had hidden depth a la DS9.

I just started watching these today and they’re phenomenally awesome. I’d like to see one of all the conflicts, wars, and brush fires the Federation has been apart of. Good job man. Keep up the good work!

What bugged me about Janeway's journey was precisely that it was so normal. Picard's enthusiasm matched what I hoped to see from a society that's all but achieved Utopia. HOWEVER What a lot of people miss about Voyager was it's sort of parallel to Lord of the Flies--what people do to survive when stuck in extreme, hostile circumstances. I feel Janeway's relationship with The Doctor is an aspect of that theme. Alternatively (or perhaps in addition), it could be said that Picard and Janeway are 24th century examples of 'liberal' and 'conservative.' But anyway Picard still > Kirk

@Trekspertise

5 жыл бұрын

We might be thinking the same thing. It's a good point to make.

@BoroMirraCz

5 жыл бұрын

Picard is best of the best. You cannot except less from the captain of the flagship. But Janeway was just a regular captain (with scientific background IIRC) put into terrible situation. Maybe she was trained for it, but she still wasn't prepared. She was much closer to "regular" human with all its shortcommings. She was trying to be as good as Picard, but sometimes it was too much for her. And that's what I like about Janeway and Voyager - I could relate to them much more.

@Djarra

5 жыл бұрын

A better contrast would have been with how Vic was treated in DS9 compared to The EMH.

@sigmacademy

5 жыл бұрын

It might also be good to consider that it's Utopia for everyone in the Federation, but not so much for anyone else? Having the Federation as a shining beacon example is kinda deceptive, if you consider the actions taken to build such an illusion, the sacrificial lambs that the Federation were so willingly able to trade lives for "peace", even when said peace may be a rather short-lived one and lead to war in any case (a prime example being the Federation left the Maquis as former Federation colonies to fend for themselves under Cardassian rule, only to have the Cardassians ally up with the Dominion later for increased influence and power; or have the Dominion genocide the Maquis).

@sigmacademy

5 жыл бұрын

@@BoroMirraCz The problem was that Janeway put the ship and the crew in that position. She remained true to Starfleet ideals, but in the end that cost her lives. You could also argue that Voyager left a trail of dead bodies in its wake of everyone they might have directly or unintentionality have killed during their voyage in the Delta Quadrant. They probably made more enemies than allies during their time in the quadrant.

Damn, this made me tear up. Keep up the awesome work!!!

this vid made my evening, so nice, so pleasant. It was pleasure to listen to and to watch as well. So very well done! Thanks!

"Soylent 3D is holograms!"

I watched all the star trek episodes in 360P, I had no idea startrek looked this nice.

This was so good. I’m a new subscriber to the channel so I was blown away by how much I loved this 🥰🖖🏽

This is why I love Star Trek, the eternal question, what is sentience ? Whether it's AI or android or some alien force. It's these questions that we always thought provoking. Voyager particularly I loved the doctor and holodeck episodes.

Stumbled across the channel when I saw "A History of the Borg", that you did in 2015. A shame it took me so long to find it. Subscribed.

@Trekspertise

5 жыл бұрын

Welcome aboard! We've gotten a lot better since then :)

Finally! More trekspertise.

How can anyone NOT like this marvelous video? This is just brilliant!

@Trekspertise

5 жыл бұрын

Thanks! Can't please everyone, tho.

I actually think the most absurd showcase of Picards willingness to consider the personhood of a potential sentient being is his defense of the crystalline entity. Even if one considers it living and self-aware; it's basically Star Trek's Galactus and had murdered a slew of people.

@ryansobol8991

5 жыл бұрын

I think it's an interesting moral dilemma. Take the episode of Futurama where the Planet Express crew discovers Popplers and sells them to a food chain because they're delicious. Then it turns out that Popplers are actually the undeveloped children of the planet Omicron Persei 8. Needless to say, the Omicronians are displeased and want retribution. Should Earth be destroyed because they ate what they didn't realize were intelligent life forms?

@Trekspertise

5 жыл бұрын

Quite an interesting moment. Deserved to be unpacked.

@CommanderM117

5 жыл бұрын

@@Trekspertise Pop a... Poppler in your mouth When you come to Fishy Joe's What they're made of is a mystery Where they come from, no one knows You can pick 'em, you can lick 'em You can chew 'em, you can stick 'em And if you promise not to sue us You can shove one up your nose

@slashandbones13

5 жыл бұрын

That conflict is what made it interesting.

@altrocks

5 жыл бұрын

No one on Earth in the 24th century would say all sharks deserve to be destroyed, though they certainly have killed more than a few people. Some lifeforms hunt and eat other living things. The silicon based lifeforms in TOS were originally seen as an enemy because they killed people who were attacking their eggs. The Crystalline Entity, whether naturally formed or some kind of leftover super weapon, would be seen in a similar light. In many ways it was no different from Tin Man.

wow - thank you for this and all the insight on this show, that you help us connect with. Greatness!

@Trekspertise

5 жыл бұрын

Thanks for watching =)

Such a great essay. Well done!

Another awesome topic. And what fortuitous timing, which can only be summarized with one word... ZORA.

Omg all of these are so amazing!

@Trekspertise

4 жыл бұрын

Welcome aboard :)

More videos like this, please!

Looks like you got it fairly on point about Picard featuring holograms more heavily!

Surprised you didn't mention Voyager Nothing Human episode with the hologram of Dr. Crell Moset.

"Sorted circumstance of this sort." Solid alliteration.

Tuvix would be a GREAT episode to deconstruct.

Nice videos. well done.

@Trekspertise

5 жыл бұрын

Thanks for watching =)

OMG "Picard Fail" with that smug look on Q. So good.

The fundamental issue had to deal with “consciousness.” The third test for sentience. It is presumed for “naturally evolved” beings...regardless of form. Anything “created” in mechanical/digital form might just be a very sophisticated program emulating living thought and emotion and not possess “consciousness.” However, I noted that Federation law has no real test to detect consciousness. So, a requirement to be sentient depends on a quality that can’t be scientifically proven...even in naturally evolved life forms.

@peytonmac1131

4 жыл бұрын

@ZDProletariat Most people make that mistake.

This is why I love Star Trek so much. They are willing to look at "the other" and ask relevant questions. Delve deep into what reality is by questioning reality itself.

I love Weyone's laughter! LOL

Great episode, and very topical! I had a lot of questions about the social differences of holograms vs synthetics through the first season of Picard and was excited to come across this video addressing my line of thinking. Any chance of a follow up to this? I wonder if any sentient holograms were around to protest the synthetic ban...

Janeway intimidates space clowns was hilarious!

@Trekspertise

5 жыл бұрын

Show us the lie =)

@mattrossesq

5 жыл бұрын

@@Trekspertise It's not a lie! It's spot on! Good video by the way!

Holograms do it in HD.

@Trekspertise

5 жыл бұрын

Seriously. What is The Doctor's resolution?

@bcn1gh7h4wk

5 жыл бұрын

whatever it is, it's worth a blonde milf's attention, so, there's that.

@pwnmeisterage

5 жыл бұрын

Maybe that's why this particular blonde never found him especially appealing. Holograms might fool the typical human (or alien) eye. But not a girl equipped with such impressive "Borg" implants.

@sigmacademy

5 жыл бұрын

@@Trekspertise UHD? 4K/8K? Who knows? XD

A hologram is sort of an avatar of the computer generating it.

@altrocks

5 жыл бұрын

Don't go Andromeda on us.

@TiagoTiagoT

4 жыл бұрын

Not of the computer, just of a software running on the computer

Despite the shortcomings of Voyager, what it did with The Doctor was very good. Great video.

well done

@Trekspertise

5 жыл бұрын

Thanks =)

damn this hit hard. i felt like i was back in philosophy class back in college. a very well done essay. you should be proud

Vic Fontanne: “am I a joke to you?”

When did "realism" become synonymous with reactionary conservatism? I don't regard regressive authoritarianism as any more realistic than the anarchic, property-free egalitarianism humanity enjoyed for 200,000 years prior to the rise of agrarianism. And Roddenberry understood this; Star Trek isn't about Utopia, as some people claim, it's about the desire to _be better._

@KittSpiken

5 жыл бұрын

If I do better will you bring me a present Santa Claus?

@deadknight1402

4 жыл бұрын

I've always seen the Federation as a vision of what we *could* be, rather than being a representation of what we undoubtedly will be.

You make alot of good arguments. And these are the hard questions that the show tries to answer threw startrek.

THANK YOU! This is literally the content I begged for, and Trekspertise has delivered. I'll be over here thinking about the civil rights of holograms (and gently wondering why you didn't discuss the psychotic murder hologram Dejaren from Voyager's "Revulsion", but it's ok, I still love you)

So I'm watching this video on Deep Space Nine on Rowan J Coleman's channel and he happens to mention this channel and "The Case For Gul Dukat". After watching that video and this one, this has officially become one of my favorite channels. Thanks for the heads up about the new Picard series. I had no idea that was in the works. I feel that the, um, shall we say "less human" characters on Star Trek are always captivating to watch. Data is a character who needs no one to defend him or explain why he's incredible. The Doctor, I thought, was a tragic character and one of my personal favorites. He's an EMH Mark I, which meant that by the time Voyager ended up in the Delta Quadrant, he was already obsolete. He had a sour disposition and no bedside manner, just like his creator. He gradually became more human as time went on, but had to deal with the complexities of his own individuality as well as his status as a thing that was not only replaceable, but one that had ALREADY BEEN replaced. To add lemon juice to the wound, he'd been replaced by none other than Andy Dick. Ouch. Here was a being that outlived the crew multiple times, most notably when Voyager crashed into the ice planet and Harry Kim powered him on a great deal of time later. Or when a copy of him was left behind to later resume his journey towards Earth some 700 years later. He was just as human as anyone of flesh and blood, but immortal so long as his matrix wasn't destroyed or corrupted. His battle for recognition of his humanity, or I guess it would be more accurate to call it sentience in this case, would not be in simply getting society to acknowledge his creativity or complexities or his ability to think for himself. They did as much when they declared him an artist. His problems will be in that very immortality. Mortal beings see eternal life as something to be desired, but so many immortal characters in fiction have to watch those people that they've grown to care for pass away, and they view it as a curse. In a classic example of this, the Robin Williams movie "Bicentennial Man" covered the same ground that Data did during TNG's original run, but there is a line near the end of the movie that sums everything up. I couldn't find a direct quote, but it's something like "Human beings can tolerate immortality in machines, but not in another human being. It would cause too much jealousy and resentment." This is also true in the world of Star Trek. As much as Picard crowed to the unfrozen twentieth century tourists that humanity has "grown out of [its] infancy", humanity clearly has a lot of growing to do. And then there was Seven of Nine. The woman who went from human to Borg and back again. Her parents were dead. She was being groomed to be the next Borg Queen. Everything that she'd been had been stripped away and replaced with programming and electronics. She was very much like The Doctor in that she had to make the transition from machine to person. To learn to feel, to make mistakes, to love, to be creative. None of these things were Borg, and that was certainly a difficult hurdle for her to overcome. Still, at the end of the day she did have one advantage that The Doctor did not: she was mortal. Her restored humanity might be scrutinized, but it would not be denied her.

That dr who joke😂

Great essay! I really enjoyed your comparison and how it relates to how people look at someone they might consider to be “other”. While Voyager had plenty of issues, I always thought it interesting to see the battle in Janeway between wanting to force the EMH to just do what he was made for and to respect him, starting from when he wanted people to turn him off when they left sickbay. With TNG, I think you’re right, Picard is like the idealist. I think Riker was closer to Janeway in his treatment of Data (or sometimes harsher, but he was that way with everyone.)

If my coffee maker started talking to me out of the blue like that, I'd have to clean the kitchen floor. And not because I dropped my coffee cup.

@Trekspertise

5 жыл бұрын

Would you consider a cold shower...of coffee?

@scottmantooth8785

5 жыл бұрын

that's what a roomba is for

Clutch-shirt! Bonus points!

love the hat. looks great

10:27 I didn't think of it as a joke. Ironically the expanded universe, as usually, actually dives into this.

dont touch that you dont know what it does omg thats funny u dont hear any other crew say that lol

The base problem is that an android like data was designed to be a sentient person by his creator, even if he was not recognized as such by others in the beginning, when he was discovered. Holograms like Voyager's doctor were NOT designed to be sentient, but he grew into sentience over the course of his "life". This made it more difficult to recognize him as fully sentient. The difference is intent.

I love your videos

I have that same Clutch T-shirt

With humans hesitating to recognize the personhood of members of their own species (i.e. the unborn, people with genetic abnormalities, or even different levels of melanin), it’s hard to believe they’d ever accept the personhood of any other sentient species, natural or artificial. Excellent video.

@SirDankleberry

4 жыл бұрын

Is this 1800? We do accept people of different races and disabilities.

@elliotyourarobot

3 жыл бұрын

As long as they look and act white its all good

The 'zeal' that Piccard uses comes from the fact that the operation Data was being ordered to submit to had a notable chance of killing him. Data was not given the choice to refuse the operation. Piccard wasn't just a zealous ideologist, he was trying to save Data's life.

I think Mr Rodinbery would be proud.

This essay is simply beautiful.

@Trekspertise

5 жыл бұрын

Thanks =)

Somehow this is also the most solid argument in favor of janeway as a solid character and captain I've seen yet.

@Trekspertise

5 жыл бұрын

She is an interesting character =)

Consider another holographic character: Vic Fontaine. When he’s given higher intelligence to be a better program, he develops a personality of his own. And the DS9 crew chose to accommodate him, giving him a home and a full time job within the holodeck.

@Bow-to-the-absurd

Жыл бұрын

Vic and Nog were a great team

3:40 I have seen that picture before and every time I do it makes me cry. A little boy should never face the fear of his own mortality! Star Trek was created with the idea that the future was much better than any time before it. But I think it was necessary to show that we are but mere mortals. We will never be utopian. It doesn't matter how magical our technology becomes, we can't change "us".

Looks like this essay will need a part II after Picard!

"Andriods,everybody needs good androids".

oh my god. I just realized. The Holographic Doctor in Voyager was very nearly "born sexy (yesterday) last year" ok, well, now I'm going to have to think on that for a month or two.

Picard made a 4th wall joke in regards to the Holographic Moriarty.

Dude I’m only 4 beers in. Bit deep an opener! 😂😂

@andymc1579

5 жыл бұрын

Also get Riker out of the holodeck. We all know what he does in there...

Now I feel bad about hanging up on that robo-caller the other day.

*Incredible analysis*

@Trekspertise

5 жыл бұрын

Thanks! Lots more to say on the subject. A whole book could be written. But, as far as Janeway vs. Picard, we are happy with these thoughts. Thanks for watching!

Tough topic, good payoff, great video!

That top hat! Love it!

@TheSepharious

5 жыл бұрын

ramshambo2001 it's from Hats in the Belfry. My GF had it in her costume collection and I appropriated it. ;-)

Great video, which clearly would have been a lot of work!

@Trekspertise

5 жыл бұрын

It was indeed! Thanks for checking it out :)

How realistic Picards Stance on the matter is: Imho one has to consider that Picard is a Flagship captain in his sixties and Janeway a freshly promoted(at least we don't hear of previous postings as captain) Captain somewhere between 30 and 50 striving to keep her crew together somewhere in the void. While she has to make do with what's at her disposal and can’t risk the functionality of her only way to treat wounds(really tom is the only one with passing familiarity?), Picard both has the liberty to do so(being close to home) and the(onsetting) oldman-stubbornness of the Elite. While his behavior looks Progressive because he champions values we today consider progressive, we have to consider that these are the values he as a starfleet officer has been exposed to since youth. Captain of the flagship also is a position that requires a high degree of System-Indoctionation and also is a good place to put people who are too fond of your own ideology(aka uncomfortable idealists), as this keeps them away from real politics in the capitol. He sees a thing that could be classed as Person, the charta says thats a person, boom, that's how we do it in the Federation since 2161. (which after all is almost 1.5 centuries before he was born) This attitude can also be seen with the Exocomps, whos personhood Picard had not considered before. He does not so much think about the Issue philosophically but applies his ideological filter to things. Once the Exocomps are considered for this process and meet the criteria Picard has no choice other than championing their Personhood, if only not to look like a hypocrite(in front of himself if none else). Janeway still has to think out these things and carefully weigh them against each other, so her "conservative" or rather "cautious" behavior towards the doctor is both called for and believable. So in that light Picards behavior is quite understandable. I don't claim the show is written with future conservatism in mind but imo Picards Attitude towards Personhood makes internal sense anyway.

Who was the artist to the music in this video? It was beautiful :-)