Libertarians to Liberals: You dont take freedom seriously. Anarchists to Libertarians: You dont take freedom seriously.

@bubblegumgun3292

3 жыл бұрын

Liberty > freedumb freedom implies servitude aka government workers

@DavidSiciliano2100

3 жыл бұрын

Libertarianism and anarchy is the same thing dumdum

@philosorapper5454

3 жыл бұрын

@@DavidSiciliano2100 no it's snot

@BDeity

3 жыл бұрын

@@philosorapper5454they're both the same line of thinking further or more moderate down said line.

@ToTheNines87368

3 жыл бұрын

@@DavidSiciliano2100 libertarianism is a big tent in which exists people with anarchistic beliefs. In the same way that vegans are in a sense vegetarians. If that analogy is wrong Vegans, I apologize.

The moment when you realize this 1 hour was just a highlight of a 4 and a half hour podcast

I’m with Lex, “this is fascinating, btw, I’m really enjoying this, this is great...”

@mattss7886

3 жыл бұрын

Ok how long after this comment did your A.D.D kick and you turned off the podcast cause you were no longer "fascinated" by it

@jamescordova1796

3 жыл бұрын

@@mattss7886 Why you hating?

@mattss7886

3 жыл бұрын

@@jamescordova1796 it was a question

@jamescordova1796

3 жыл бұрын

@@mattss7886 Yes it was a question, as well as some shitty presuppositions that you added in with no evidence.

@jean-paulbaudet2951

3 жыл бұрын

@@jamescordova1796 9 I

I have never seen Lex SO happy as he is here watching these two go at it.

@yCherkashin

3 жыл бұрын

This is great.

@Gunnplay

3 жыл бұрын

Agreed. Next should be Eric Weinstein and Michio Kaku.

@EB-bl6cc

3 жыл бұрын

I like Malice a lot sometimes, but here every time Yaron makes a good point Malice just uses some silly false equivalency to try to defeat his argument, or some other gimmick, rather than genuinely addressing the argument. He may have some good views but he doesn't know how to argue fairly, it's all tricks. I don't know that Yaron is even right about everything but he looked way better than Malice here IMO because his arguments were honest

@stevenwilliams1805

3 жыл бұрын

@@cheesemccheese5780 for me the best example of presenting themselves as insane is, someone telling me, with a straight face, that language dosen't exist. And they don't even attempt to explain how it is that I understood the words that came out of their mouth?

@KibyNykraft

3 жыл бұрын

The anarcho-socialist Valerie Solanas shot Andy Warhol. A pure anarchy is sought out to live in by only bipolar individuals more or less, and it is their bipolarity that is their fake resistance to authority. Such a community always ends up in a lot of immorality and conflicts, and one example was Copenhagen's "Christiania" some years back when finally the police went in ,took out many of the druglords and the dirtiest hippies there, which stabilized the area greatly. Many kids who grew up in the anarchist collectives there went on TV documentaries as young adults and told of the lack of organization ,and a lot of problems with their parents from alcoholism to fights to poverty. The individualistic moral codes needed to protect a rational society is the only way to advance civilized freedom. This is why Norway once going independent in the 1800s formed the constitution unpolitically ("rettsstat"). Later the political parties appeared ,and today the government have in several cases the last decades violated human rights and the constitution whenever deemed necessary ,now fully supported by 90% of the mass media owned by big corp and with editors from the old communist parties. *However* in for example the US, the total lack of calm secular intellect in say 90% of the public makes also a more or less Randian liberty state into a potential hazard ,since the police are just a bunch of baseball primates. Anyway, what the two guys here largely disagree about is just semantics. They dont debate enough from the same definition of anarchy. Brooks is talking about anarchy as chaos of the lack of morals. And government as the constitutional definition of the morals that protect freedom. The other guy defined anarchy as the natural craving of freedom like in natural competition. Basically that is not a contradiction but that depends on the cultural and situational context.

I haven’t focused this hard on anything in my life. This stream is beyond compelling.

@randomz8065

3 жыл бұрын

Should watch Jordan vs Sam harris, They debate god morality and religion. Probably the best discussion available on youtube.

@ryanlueras4594

2 жыл бұрын

@@randomz8065 thank you so much for your suggestion. Its so interesting holy moly

This conversation devolved to who's got the biggest rocket launcher.

@mra2438

3 жыл бұрын

Who has the biggest rocket launcher has determined the course of human events throughout history

@ethanjung3392

3 жыл бұрын

tyusSquadrons 7

@kalidesu

3 жыл бұрын

Malice is throwing life boat scenario fallacies at Yaron.

@notPepeTho

3 жыл бұрын

i do. prepare to die.

@danielm5161

3 жыл бұрын

It seems like Michael came up with his ideas when he was like 17 and it started getting him attention online so he has just stuck with it so he can get on podcasts and stuff.

Malice was screaming internally so hard in the first 5 minutes lol

@damianotommassi3378

2 жыл бұрын

Internally? Did you not hear him during that period? He sounded like a group of schoolgirls that just had their first period simultaneously.

@nextgenfootball69420

2 жыл бұрын

Translation: malice won the debate so let me try to soften the blow

@Cooooookiiiieeee

Жыл бұрын

@@nextgenfootball69420 LMAO

"Anarchy is no guarantee that some people won't kill, injure, kidnap, defraud, or steal from others. Government is a guarantee that some will. " Gustave de Molinari

@MusingsFromTheJohn00

Ай бұрын

Anarchy is a 100% guarantee to the rise of feudalistic violently competing authoritarian rules and authoritarian groups form because of the power they gain by doing so, thus sending a society socially backwards many hundreds of years.

It's telling the Yaron's willingness to imagine utopian ideals extends only as far as his preferences. He can energetically imagine a more perfect government, but he staunchly refuses to imagine a more perfect form of emergent self governance.

@TheSakufighter

Жыл бұрын

There would have to be a world war for anarchy to really ever take hold.

A podcast so good a clip of it must be an hour long.

World first 1 hour clip on any 'clips channel'. X')

I love all three of these guys. If everyone was as nice of people, society would work well no matter what structure we went with

As someone who was a victim of asset forfeiture, not drug or crime related, I agree that this power structure needs to change. There is no recourse for the public who are weak compared to the state. The state took my property and I had no recourse. Even local news wouldn't cover or discuss my plight.

@mithilmallya2829

2 жыл бұрын

Woah, tell me more

@ruddthreetrees1104

2 жыл бұрын

Same . In fact it’s what changed me from conservative to libertarian.

@davidhunt7427

2 жыл бұрын

@@ruddthreetrees1104 I guess conservatives _should want_ more progressives to be mugged by reality,.. but I would really rather not!!

@ruddthreetrees1104

2 жыл бұрын

@@davidhunt7427 it’s not that when conservative I wanted the government to do such things I just guess I still had some faith in the institution…obviously seems dumb now .

@davidhunt7427

2 жыл бұрын

@@ruddthreetrees1104 Riddle me this please,... Does the Truth derive from Authority or Does Authority derive from the Truth?? *_I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery._* ~ Thomas Jefferson, _letter to James Madison,_ January 30, 1787 *_Liberty is always dangerous, but it is the safest thing we have._* ~ Harry Emerson Fosdick *_Better to starve free than be a fat slave._* ~ Aesop *_The State takes the place of God...and State slavery is a form of worship...The State, like the Church, demands enthusiasm, self-sacrifice, and love, and if religion requires or presupposes the 'fear of God,' then the State takes good care to provide the necessary terror._* ~ Carl Jung, The Undiscovered Self *_The dearest ambition of a slave is not liberty, but to have a slave of his own._* ~ Sir Richard Burton *_Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves._* ~ William Pitt (the Younger), Speech in the House of Commons, November 18, 1783 *_To disarm the people...[i]s the most effectual way to enslave them._* ~ George Mason, referencing advice given to the British Parliament by Pennsylvania governor Sir William Keith, The Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution, June 14, 1788 *_And I cannot see, why arms should be denied to any man who is not a slave, since they are the only true badges of liberty._* ~ Andrew Fletcher *_Nothing is more disgusting than the crowing about liberty by slaves, as most men are, and the flippant mistaking for freedom of some paper preamble like a Declaration of Independence, or the statute right to vote, by those who have never dared to think or to act._* ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson *_The man who does not do his own thinking is a slave, and is a traitor to himself and to his fellow-men._* ~ Robert Ingersoll *_None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free._* ~ Johann Wolfgang von Goethe *_The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves._* ~ Dresden James *_Slavery, protection, and monopoly find defenders, not only in those who profit by them, but in those who suffer by them._* ~ Frederic Bastiat *_Americans are so enamored of equality they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom._* ~ Alexis de Tocqueville *_The man who asks of freedom anything other than itself is born to be a slave._* ~ Alexis de Tocqueville *_Even despots do not deny the merits of freedom; only they wish to keep it for themselves, claiming that no one else is worthy of it. Thus our quarrel is not about the value of freedom per se, but stems from our opinion of our fellow men, high or low as the case may be; indeed, it is no exaggeration to say that a man's admiration for absolute government is proportionate to the contempt he feels for those around him._* ~ Alexis de Tocqueville *_The man who produces while others dispose of his product is a slave._* ~ Ayn Rand *_What is the basic, the essential, the crucial principle that differentiates freedom from slavery? It is the principle of voluntary action versus physical coercion or compulsion._* ~ Ayn Rand *_In our desire to have government become our benefactor and sustainer, we have allowed it to become our taskmaster and overlord. As a result, we have become little more than well-fed, well-entertained slaves to the state. Freedom, as envisioned by our forefathers, is gone._* ~ Chuck Baldwin *_It is incredible how as soon as a people become subject, it promptly falls into such complete forgetfulness of its freedom that it can hardly be roused to the point of regaining it, obeying so easily and willingly that one is led to say that this people has not so much lost its liberty as won its enslavement._* ~ Etienne de la Boétie *_Men fight for liberty and win it with hard knocks. Their children, brought up easy, let it slip away again, poor fools. And their grand-children are once more slaves._* ~ D.H. Lawrence *_A slave is one who waits for someone to come and free him._* ~ Ezra Pound *_Enslave the liberty of but one human being and the liberties of the world are put in peril._* ~ William Lloyd Garrison *_To educate a man is to unfit him to be a slave._* ~ Frederick Douglass *_No nation, ancient or modern, ever lost the liberty of speaking freely, writing, or publishing their sentiments, but forthwith lost their liberty in general and became slaves._* ~ John Peter Zenger *_I will not attack your doctrines nor your creeds if they accord liberty to me. If they hold thought to be dangerous - if they aver that doubt is a crime, then I attack them one and all, because they enslave the minds of men._* ~ Robert G. Ingersoll *_All socialism involves slavery._* ~ Herbert Spencer *_The black family survived centuries of slavery and generations of Jim Crow, but it has disintegrated in the wake of the liberals' expansion of the welfare state._* ~ Thomas Sowell *_I believe that liberty is the only genuinely valuable thing that men have invented, at least in the field of government, in a thousand years. I believe that it is better to be free than to be not free, even when the former is dangerous and the latter safe. I believe that the finest qualities of man can flourish only in free air ~ that progress made under the shadow of the policeman's club is false progress, and of no permanent value. I believe that any man who takes the liberty of another into his keeping is bound to become a tyrant, and that any man who yields up his liberty, in however slight the measure, is bound to become a slave._* ~ H.L. Mencken *_For twenty-five years I've been speaking and writing in defense of your right to happiness in this world, condemning your inability to take what is your due, to secure what you won in bloody battles on the barricades of Paris and Vienna, in the American Civil War, in the Russian Revolution. Your Paris ended with Petain and Laval, your Vienna with Hitler, your Russia with Stalin, and your America may well end in the rule of the Ku Klux Klan! You've been more successful in winning your freedom than in securing it for yourself and others. This I knew long ago. What I did not understand was why time and again, after fighting your way out of a swamp, you sank into a worse one. Then groping and cautiously looking about me, I gradually found out what has enslaved you: YOUR SLAVE DRIVER IS YOU YOURSELF. No one is to blame for your slavery but you yourself. No one else, I say!_* ~ Wilhelm Reich *_While boasting of our noble deeds we're careful to conceal the ugly fact that by an iniquitous money system we have nationalized a system of oppression which, though more refined, is not less cruel than the old system of chattel slavery._* ~ Horace Greeley

Lex I must say you are fantastic at letting your guests get their points across without interjecting and you truly add value to the discussion in the right moments

@TXMTXMTXMTXMTXM

11 ай бұрын

⁰l

Hour long clip. Good job bro

@goodrobot1

3 жыл бұрын

@@chrisbishop6928 msm chooses to do that.

By both Michael and Yaron's definitions, this debate occurred in a state of anarchy.

So good.. the initial video flew by ridiculously fast .. love that there’s a recap

Lex in the first minute is like oh shit. Malice is gonna have a stroke. Haha

this is incredible, i applaud the gentlemans having this fantastic conversation and lex for setting it up beautifully and letting it happen. i've seen so many great debates and podcasts get ruined because the host wanted to keep a timer or have bunch of random people ask questions.

This entire clip can be summed up by Lex looking at Michael and smiling devilishly.

Governments become ruling through violence, so excellent point, Michael. Seems like Yaron doesn't have a good grasp of what definition of anarchy means. Malice kind of tore him up a little bit...

@rustusandroid

2 жыл бұрын

@@TruthDissident So, you believe the individual exists to serve the state?

@litigioussociety4249

13 күн бұрын

He doesn't understand the definition of government. A government is an agency with the perceived justification to use force. It's basically a concept that one is not free to defend themselves from the initiation of violence from certain agencies, which is stupid. Ironically, most statists can agree that a person should be free to defend themselves against coercion or force from a foreign government, a gang, a thief, a mafia, etc., but throw that attitude away when it's the local government.

I am just loving it how two great minds coming one at other, only to agree at the end that "government is ok, if it leaves you alone". Great stuff.

@jdsartre9520

2 жыл бұрын

a go vt that leaves you alone is like a fly that leaves sh-t alone - don't exist. naive, foolish, brainwashed

@theantil7

Жыл бұрын

Government survives on not leaving you alone via robbing you through taxation soo...

@Glockmog2007

Жыл бұрын

By definition government does not leave you alone.

@robertortiz-wilson1588

4 ай бұрын

​@Glockmog2007 I agree, which is why it's needed.

"Governments, if they endure, always tend increasingly toward aristocratic forms. No government in history has been known to evade this pattern. And as the aristocracy develops, government tends more and more to act exclusively in the interests of the ruling class - whether that class be hereditary royalty, oligarchs of financial empires, or entrenched bureaucracy." - Politics as Repeat Phenomenon: Bene Gesserit Training Manual

@mouthpiece200

3 жыл бұрын

Its not a problem with governments, its a problem with societies. Anarchism cannot fix this.

@QualeQualeson

3 жыл бұрын

@@mouthpiece200 The quote doesn't discuss the root cause, which (perhaps obviously) is human nature. It simply points to a specific conundrum, in case you hadn't noticed and still believe. Thus, the natural conclusion is to attempt to evolve to make advancement possible. Anarchy has nothing to do with it.

@mouthpiece200

3 жыл бұрын

@@QualeQualeson Well the topic here is anarchism...

@QualeQualeson

3 жыл бұрын

@@mouthpiece200 Yes? Didn't you _just_ say it's not going to work?

@mouthpiece200

3 жыл бұрын

@@QualeQualeson Yes, what's your point?

An anarchist, a libertarian, and an artificial intelligence walk into a bar.

Holy shit this gets heated, damn. Love it!!!!

@stevenwilliams1805

3 жыл бұрын

It's fantastic. I wish more people could have disagreements like this.

@matgonzalez6272

2 жыл бұрын

It’s also thanks to the fact that Malice actually got serious and set aside the trolling. I think that’s when he’s at his best

It's so good to see both sides argue with respect like this. We need much more of this. We don't all agree, but we should at least hear each other out.

@cal8362

3 жыл бұрын

True, but you can't have a conversation like this with a leftist, because to disagree makes you evil

@lucca3113

2 жыл бұрын

@@cal8362 you do know who michael malice is, right?

@gggallin8279

Жыл бұрын

@@cal8362 which is the same with right wing people because it’s pretty obvious that two polar opposites won’t agree on everything due to different perceptions of morals, laws and so on

"Anarchy is absurd" "Why?" "Because I said it's absurd"

This was the first time in awhile where I actually lost myself in a video. Felt like I blinked and the hour was up...riveting conversation!

I love watching these things. I often wish I could raise my hand and ask someone to clarify a statement and debate it.

56:11 , 56:14

27:01 Imagine being Yaron here talking about how "no one reads the [Icelandic] sagas anymore", and then going on about how life was filled with constant violence and how there was no authority. I guess he missed the parts of the sagas which talked about the Gothi (a wiseman, shamanic elder) who existed in virtually every village who acted as an arbiter for disputes, or the Althing which everyone would make a pilgrimage to at least once per year to get updated on the new information and resolve disputes that they felt didn't have an acceptable resolution back home. There wasn't an authority in the sense that they were being forced to follow laws or edicts that they didn't vote for or want, but to make the claim that there was lawlessness and rampant violence shows just how little (if at all) Yaron himself has read the Eddas and the sagas. His strategy in bringing them up is to confuse the listener into thinking that he has read them (so they don't have to) and that he's an authority on their contents. PS: The federal building in Reykjavik, Iceland is literally named to as the Althingi because it never stopped being held.

@musicisfree91

Жыл бұрын

There's a statue of Leif Erikson in front of Church of Hallgrímur in Reykjavík that was gifted to Iceland by the U.S. in 1930 in commemoration of the 1000th anniversary of Althingi.

@j.masonbrown6216

Жыл бұрын

That sounds like a lovely system, but do you think that it is a realistacally implementable system? I don't know that we could realistically re-create something like that in the 21st century. And even if we did reinstate a system like that, what would life be like? Could we have developed modern medicine with that system? Could we have developed automobiles, trains, and planes under that system? Could we have put a person on the moon in that system? I don't think so, given all of those things require a modern globalized society that is regulated by governments. Seems like folks may have freedom, but they may not have access to lots of life saving and amazing technology that makes life better for everyone. But this is why I agree with Yaron about anarchy: it is purely a fantasy, a political fanfiction that assumes the absolute best out of people and totally ignores human nature. It would be impossible to implement a decentralized world system in which there was no central authority. Even if we snapped our fingers and created that system peacefully right now, within a few years one tribe/faction would have violently taken over the other one to control them under an authoritarian system! Hence why I agree with him in that Anarchy leads to Authoritarianism.

@chevelle1

Жыл бұрын

@@j.masonbrown6216t’s certainly a fascinating topic. One could just as easily argue that we’d be far more technologically advanced though. Countries with the most government authority are the lowest contributors to advancement. Countries with the less government authority are almost entirely responsible for all advancement/inventions/technology, etc. I don’t think that’s a coincidence. Imagine how further along we’d be with even more freedom. I’m a libertarian/Constitutionalist with an open mind to anarchy with more education on it. I still believe there should be a very small, well defined government (protecting rights and national defense). But I have an open mind to anarchism as I’m learning more.

@dwayneorubor5322

Ай бұрын

Another thing I find Yaron Brook does is ignores the examples of societies that didn’t have kings and big modern sates.

This is perfect. Lex is going to be as big as Rogan someday.

@plastifiedmetal5682

3 жыл бұрын

Not sure about that the dude has got no emotions or energy, lol.

@mrtreezz8251

3 жыл бұрын

@@plastifiedmetal5682 the fuck?

@williamsmithington3157

3 жыл бұрын

@@plastifiedmetal5682 true, but Rogan is an idiot

@chriswilson8118

3 жыл бұрын

@@plastifiedmetal5682 But Rogan has too much emotion and too much energy. Kind a like somebody on crank you can’t moderate their mouth or their emotions.

@plastifiedmetal5682

3 жыл бұрын

@@chriswilson8118 but its entertaining. Lex has good content but oh man is he boring.

Lex should have objected to Malice's claim on anarchy in the room! This is clearly Lex's channel and he has authority here.

@mmehdig

3 жыл бұрын

@@GodsOwnPrototype he has the absolute power. He can violently intrupt them and forcefully change the subject or even cut everything in post production. They could stop the cycle and go out but lex has the monopoly of voice in this location. They voluntarily accepted his authority when they participated in his pod cast.

@giovannirosado5606

3 жыл бұрын

@@mmehdig They weren't coerced into participating

@mmehdig

3 жыл бұрын

@@giovannirosado5606 yes, you are right. they are not coerces and they are not born into this podcast. But if in future if Lex sells his material to Disney channel and handover the material to the next monarch, I don't know if they can remove their interviews from the podcast.

@mmehdig

3 жыл бұрын

@@Xplora213 you can say similar thing about government. 1) if governments abuse power they face rebellion 2) it is far more valuable for some governments if people define their own path because they can maximize the number of work force and their performance. These subjects cannot change the name of the channel to "Michael's podcast" or "Yaron's podcast", this is Lex's territory.

@stevenwilliams1805

3 жыл бұрын

@@Xplora213 I like this observation very much except, I wouldn't call entertainment nothing.

A healthy debate! I do enjoy content on this channel, thanks Lex!

two of my favorites i can't believe im just finding this now

It's so rare to see people who's opinions you broadly value debating with a capable oponent. These are not really the aspects of Brooks philosophy that I would most like to see challenged (I think he's more vulnerable in areas of compassion and the weak) but at least it was a challenge worth following.

Malice often interrupts when being confronted about his beliefs. He doesn’t truly listen to Brook when he explains his thoughts exactly.

@xspartan346x

3 жыл бұрын

everyone already knows what objectivists are going to say lol

@gabe5661

3 жыл бұрын

@@xspartan346x fancy words help you categorize people and make assumptions about their motives.

@imthepopcornman

3 жыл бұрын

he a self described objectivist tho... and none of those words are fancy

This conversation needs to include a Game Theorist...

@carterghill

3 жыл бұрын

I dunno, I think MatPat would be a little out of place here :)

OMG I SOOOOO needed this discussion between two people I've listened to and admire separately but struggled to integrate.

I think the argument here is about scale. Michael is ok with a small govt - he calls it a private security company that he can hire or fire any time. I don't think it's realistic to think security companies would compete fairly (compete without physical force) for people's business. Inevitably one security company, let's call it Adolph's Security, would start killing off (literally) the other security companies. The remaining security companies would need to organize together to stop Adolph and hopefully they would be big enough to stop him. In the aftermath of stopping him, let's call it World Security War, the other security companies would need to make sure they are big enough to deter the next Adolph from starting another security war. Again, I think the argument here is about the scale of a "security company".

@KraszuPolis

3 жыл бұрын

What makes Malice believe that he will be able to choose security company? Most likely he will be controlled by the mob, and how no say on who he has to pay for protection, why does he think security companies would act nice, as if there was a law system enforced by somebody more powerful then they are. The security providers that act like a mob would have advantage so they would dominate.

@dude6935

3 жыл бұрын

Because war is expensive when you can't pass off the costs onto other people. Why would you go to war over a $100,000 car when the war will cost much more even if you win? Wars generally don't happen without taxation funding them. How does that taxation arise? Usually from the misguided consent of society, not from the coercive demands of a strongman.

@neway20045

3 жыл бұрын

@@dude6935 are you suggesting there was not war before a structured tax system? Unfortunately there is a percentage of men and women that are straight up killers. Those that are not needed to organize a society and social contract to protect ourselves from those that are. The rest is just about scale.

@dude6935

3 жыл бұрын

​@@neway20045 Wikipedia has list of wars going back to over 3000 BC, and every example I looked at had a state or ruler listed. I googled for a war between mercenaries, and for a war between companies, and I didn't find anything. I looked at the Pinkertons (a famous security agency), and as far as I can tell they never had an armed conflict with a rival agency. So unless you have a counterexample that I am unaware of, I advise you assume that war generally arises as I said it does, when the costs can be passed on to other people, as a result of the misguided consent of the society in question (often embodied in taxation) and not as a result of a strongman's desire to directly conquer a rival by spending his own resources to do so.

@neway20045

3 жыл бұрын

@@dude6935 Check this out. When they get enough power for a historian to write about them - I'm sure they'll have a leader and tax system. kzread.info/dash/bejne/d6WBldqvmJPTXZc.html

Maybe the best Lex podcast I've heard

Took almost 30 mins but they finally started arguing the actual points distinguishing their ideologies lol

One of the best debates ever on YT

What a fantastic discussion. I love it!

The 100 people with handguns have the “bigger gun”, it’s not literally the biggest gun, it’s who has the greatest ability to cause death/fear of death.

@ceceroxy2227

2 жыл бұрын

only if those people are working together as a group

@joshuastokes3726

2 жыл бұрын

That's the point of the example. The one individual had THE biggest gun, but no one was with him. The 100 people with small guns didn't want harmed or ruled. They banned together through their own volition. VOLUNTARISM.

So, I realize I have a lot to think and read about. Great minds and truly one of the best conversations I have listened to in a while.

@roninsjourney7560

2 жыл бұрын

Agreed. I need to read a good anarchy book.

I'm surprised Michael let Yaron get away with leaving the competing police forces 'in the wrong context.' -> Yaron says the biggest gun wins, Michael asks why we didn't win Vietnam, Yaron says it's out of context. It's not at all. In the context Yaron is presenting, these police forces are their own states. Then Yaron says it's anarchists who are dishonest lol Also the production of the legal system is a service in itself. "The reason people don't get violent is because they're afraid of greater violence" Why is anarchism magically exempt from that?

@jamesespinosa690

2 жыл бұрын

"the biggest gun wins" You lack imagination. It doesn't have to be a physical gun. The west lost those conflicts because it lacked the will. The war was lost on morale rather than physical force. This is why we are now in a culture war. And the side with the "biggest guns", i.e. the most will to succeed, will most likely be the victor.

@nicklewry3854

Жыл бұрын

The first complaint IS out if context if you can remotely understand the point Yaron is trying to make, which is that the faction that has the militaristic advantage is going to win. Micheal is trying to paint the picture as America having the ‘bigger gun’ and still losing, however in the context of that example Vietnam would have been the country with the ‘bigger gun’ due to the incalculable militaristic advantage fighting a war on home soil provided. If anyone was intellectually dishonest in this interaction it would be Micheal for intentionally strawmanning Yaron, however it is reasonable to assume it was an unintentional misunderstanding of the core message due to poor language. As for the latter: it is because in an interaction between two anarchistic factions there are no overruling authorities to enact the ‘greater violence’. This means the ‘bigger gun’ faction ends up establishing authority over the other simply through (threat of) violence. If your anarchistic faction and mine disagree, and your lawmakers side with you, and my lawmakers side with me, then who is correct? Without a greater authority, there is no answer. The factions have to work it out for themselves. What do you think happens next?

What I got from this. Libertarian- I believe in freedom. Anarchist- hold my beer.

@matts2664

2 жыл бұрын

So tru

Not even to the 6 min mark i think my brain is melting. Everything seems to be dependant/leading to the other and all my high ass can think of the argument is envisioning a snake eating its tail 🤯 Edit: 6:17 Lex's smile is priceless... I FEEL YOU BRO!!

@Limpass610

9 ай бұрын

That is a gokd analogy of the state of government in america right now Its eating its tail not realising its gonna reaxh its own head and diebif suffocation

One of the greatest conversations I've heard in a long time.

22:53 lex just quietly staring at them deep in though is literally CHILLS🥵

Lex you gotta have Michael Malice and Slavoj Zizek on a show someday that would be an interesting perspective too! Great Episode!

@supersam1914

2 жыл бұрын

There would be spit flying everywhere lmao 🤣

@FPSIreland2

2 жыл бұрын

No, he wouldn’t, because then it would be revealed quite quickly that Malice is not an anarchist.

@Engineersoldinterstingstuff

Жыл бұрын

The debate Peterson vs Zizek was amazing - so please bring them together with Lex.

If there weren't an overarching government to oversee all these smaller "competing governments", who would guarantee the safe and easy transition when a person decides they want to switch from one to the other? The "security agency" could simply hold them in bondage.

Malice loves to interupt the flow of someone making a point. It bothers me - because he is bright enough to make a logical point - without trying to gain the upper-hand by resorting to cheap tactics. "Technically Galt's Gulch is in America - so they are under 'two' authorities." This is a disingenuous argument - since the very idea of Atlas Shrugged is that the industrialists have 'broken away from' - 'have rejected' - the authority of America - to create their own society. It doesn't matter that they exist within the borders of a place called America. What matters is that they have rejected the system of America to form their own system. What is the difference if - instead of being hidden in Colorado - they found a previously unknown island in the Pacific? The concept is the same. Malice knows this. The fact that he deliberately attempts to take the steam out of Yaron's explanation by throwing obstacles in the way was disappointing....and for what? To illegitimately 'win' an argument - to show that he can 'pull one over on the Boomer'? Lame. What's even more disappointing is that Yaron fell for it. There were some missed opportunities throughout the complete interview (this being an excerp of a larger interview). Many of these missed opportunities were because Malice was in troll-mode. It's like someone making fart-sounds at a lecture. The first time it gets a giggle - as it continues it becomes less and less funny - and detracts from what would otherwise be an better conversation. His fans would defend him by saying that 'trolling is his schtick' - but it becomes a nuisance. That said - this was a great interview. Lex plays his role perfectly here.

@Starcrafter23

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah, I'm still going through the debate, but another thing that annoyed me was Malice playing dumb with the "One with the biggest gun wins", it's obviously not meant to be taken literally, if you've got an army of 10000 people armed with 9mm pistols, and an "army" of 100 people with rocket launchers, the army of 10000 IS the bigger gun. I mean, what happens once those 100 people kill that one guy with the rocket launcher? Sure, if they are just an angry mob, they will go their own ways leaving vacuum behind that someone else will fill, and it can repeat ad infinitum. But if the force of 100 people are not just an angry mob, but an organized force (for example, private military), now they are in the position of power, until someone with a "bigger gun" beats them into submission or kills them, and now you got an even stronger force in the position of power. I mean, didn't the human species start with anarchism? And yet authority emerged, because the man with the biggest gun can just say "That land is mine now".

@SonOfSeth

3 жыл бұрын

Malice is such a troll, very smart troll, but a troll.

@dude6935

3 жыл бұрын

So then if an objectivist society can reject a State and not be under it's authority, can an anarchist society reject an objectivist one? The point is that both the US and the Objectivist would claim that people are under its authority by fiat and nothing else. It shows how hollow and self serving their monopolistic "justice" claims are. In each case there are two competing sources of law, one by fiat, and one by voluntary membership. The objectivist is falling into the same trap as the statist, wishing to impose his will on others in the name of social necessity, in the face of the objections of it's victims.

@ctrlaltdebug

3 жыл бұрын

@Jake Hill exactly. All minarchists are statists.

@davidhunt7427

2 жыл бұрын

@@ctrlaltdebug How do search warrants work in libertopia??!?

The irony here is that this debate between an anarchist and a borderline anarchist is way more civil than most than most other than most debates between authoritarians

13:00 if it was easy for slaves to move from master to master, would it alleviate your concerns about slavery?

@Schmuni

Жыл бұрын

honestly, on some level: yes. the slaves would gather under the friendliest and most fair slave owner. the more evil slave owners would run out of slaves and be forced to change their ways. (i am not condoning slavery here, im just following your thought experiment ;) )

@SepticFuddy

10 күн бұрын

@@Schmuni Until the slaveowners get together and form a cartel agreement not to undercut each other on their slavery wishlists, and to brutalize any other slaveowners that try to offer a more benevolent alternative. Welcome to global governance

Dude, what a great fucking episode!! awesome idea!! you nailed it LEX!!

I’m surprised the issue of sustainability wasn’t brought up with regards to both concepts. Or maybe I missed it? Can an anarchistic society fundamentally sustain itself? Can government sustain itself? It seems to me that anarchy can’t, and that it is a placeholder when one form or type of government falls and a new one is created.

@jdsartre9520

2 жыл бұрын

"Can gover-ment sustain itself?" Are you really asking that? The answer is an obvious No. Or shall I say, it can't sustain a just and free society. But it does try to sustain itself by exploiting, fear-mongering, taxing, stealing, creating wars, etc. Ultimately it destroys, and eats itself.

@cashcleaner

2 жыл бұрын

@@jdsartre9520 So can an anarchistic society sustain itself while also meeting the criteria of being as just and free as you may demand?

I love these 2 debating. Epic

I can't help but think that Malice is idealizing people. Sure eBay, Macy's, and bars have rules that work, but this behavior comes out of the context of us living under a government structure with laws and law enforcement. Take away the structure and replace it (where needed) with market-driven replacements, and our behavior will be same if not better? I just can't buy it. Also, consistency and predictability in laws and law enforcement allows for economic flourishing and growth. If you can't predict these things, you are less likely to invest in a business for example. Consistent and predictable laws and enforcement is how the small island nation of Britain was able to control a vast portion of the world in the past. And lack of this is what holds back many countries from growing economically beyond a certain point. So having no consistent laws and law enforcement I think would significantly hold the economy back.

what a great conversation, love it :)

There are some debates that are impossible to resolve through discussion; they must be tried out and studied in a scientific way.

Great discussion. However, I’m slightly disappointed in Yaron for not stopping Michael’s misquoting of Rand. She stated government holds the monopoly on the INITIATION of force. The example she gives is if someone is robbed, they do not have the right to forcibly enter a suspect’s house. The justice system must prove to a judge probable cause and get a warrant. In anarchy, Rand criticized this. What happens if the suspects decide not to recognize the authority of the independent police force?

This was great conversation different views and opinions with healthy disagreements and yet all is well ☺️

6:40 Finland's winter war? Their military is basically designed for defense only and they require service when people turn 18.

Listening to this as the pledge of allegiance came on was peak satire this week

What are we do about future technology that anybody can make and use to destroy city blocks? Would it be best to use anarchy or some form of government?

"Do you think I'm dishonest, or do you think I'm delusional?" "Well, I think you're delusional." "Okay, that's fair." I needed this conversation in my life 😂

Yaron's obsession with judicial territory is a distinction without a difference. Territory can change over time. Why couldn't the judge's territory be based on where his voluntary members own land? In that case, he and Malice would be in agreement. There is no reason a judicial territory need be a circle, or a square, or even contiguous. Any other means of identifying a judge's territory would be arbitrary.

@-whackd

2 жыл бұрын

We already have multiple private arbitration companies working in parallel with government courts and across jurisdictions. They all work very efficiently.

@freetrade8830

Жыл бұрын

Rights violations happen across property boundaries. The judge presiding over property A would be in conflict with the one in property B, and there would be no supreme legal authority available to resolve this conflict peacefully.

Have to go with Yaron on this. I would say dishonesty caused by delusion, Michael makes a silly argument about iraq and vietnam as examples. The guys with the biggest guns, in size or quantity, (nearly) always wins. That's either one group of mobsters, an alliance of groups of mobsters or a mob of people retaliating against the mobsters. Decentralized (that is; small communities with meaningful participation of all it's citizens) representative governance held accountable by the community, ish, seems as good a solution as any. Totally privatized, zero community governance, free market governed utopia seems like such an obvious, naïve pipe dream. Michaels' best counter arguments were constantly interrupting, twisting words and changing the subject/focus of discussion. Those are tactics of dishonesty.

@majorpaynei86

3 жыл бұрын

@RoninFelon You have a failed system now. "What are presented as the strongest arguments against anarchism are inevitably a description of the status quo." - Michael Malice

@crusty7208

3 жыл бұрын

Also...it depends on who is in control of the biggest guns! When you have Just War advocates fighting a war they are happy to sacrifice their own soldiers if it means they can say they are fighting a Just War. Vietnam and Iraq were both casualties of Just War theory. I guarantee that if Iraq had the bigger guns America would be a smear on the map. Yaron’s point stands so long as the guns are intended to used unreservedly!!

@bubblegumgun3292

3 жыл бұрын

@RoninFelon thats not entire ideology. Under anarcho capitalism you can own a tank and even more police enforcing laws wont exist. They will protect property. I dont micheal malice knows we all have big guns. Not just the corporations.

@Nicholas_Terry

3 жыл бұрын

@@0x0abb then you don’t understand his arguments.

@ctrlaltdebug

3 жыл бұрын

The Persian empire didn't beat the Greek cities. The Roman Empire lost to the Goth tribes. Many Chinese empire lost to horse nomads.

The issue with Yaron's limited government view is that government will never limit itself in that way. It has a monopoly on violence. It is the ultimate vector for abuse and corruption. It will always centralize and expand itself for its own self interests.

Seeing people disagreeing in such a friendly manner is really soothing.

this is great content !!! these are the conversations I need to hear ... wish Ayn Rand, Stephen West and Milton Friedman could chime in ... / Hey Lex, maybe you could talk to Niall Ferguson? He has some deep knowledge around these topics. As for now, stay off Harvard Bridge. It's mine.

Don't confuse the term anarchy with chaos. Anarachy is the absence of rulers not the abscence of rules. Every problem discussed can be solved by private insurance with the exception of military protection for fictional national borders. The world is a mess and what we currently have is not working for 99% of the population.

Yaron: Science is not marketable. Lex: *rethinking his entire career and future plans*

What about using more mathematics in a political system, not just for policies but attached to the structure

Malice can’t reconcile his position beyond the confines of a microcosm.

@PaulsDrones

3 жыл бұрын

He’s basically flat earthing the debate.

@chriswilson8118

3 жыл бұрын

@@PaulsDrones I mean I like malice personally. He seems like a very inquisitive and thoughtful guy, but he basically uses fast talking and an eidetic memory to pettifog the issue of anarchy or anarchism as a viable system

@Cunnysmythe

2 жыл бұрын

@@chriswilson8118 That's the impression I got from this debate, I'll have to pay attention to what he does in other settings, never noticed it quite like this before

Michael is very well versed, but Yaron is clearly just more experienced in this arena.

amazing conversation

Boths of these guys are smart Mike is a very charismatic dude even when you disagree with him he just like those dude you can't hate ..

"That's Joe Rogan, you never gonna get to meet him, but he's a good guy." xD

The best podcast at the moment

The bromance between lex and malice was very endearing.

@nextgenfootball69420

2 жыл бұрын

balkan blood connection bromance

I am almost always a fan of Malice’s and I found his approach here completely pedantic and intentionally…tricky? For lack of a better term.

@XenoTravis

3 жыл бұрын

I feel the same! Love the dude but when he goes into a weird mode where everything that is said has to match exactly what he thinks. His Q&As are a riot haha

@OrthoHoppean

2 жыл бұрын

@@JakeWitmer I wouldn't go that far. He's great

@bobbyray8457

2 жыл бұрын

@@murrijuana2842 I’m here to learn not to be talked at like some prole. If you have any substance at all, you’re sure not showing it.

Monarchism > Democracy. One judge. 😎

@FazeParticles

3 жыл бұрын

sadly, yes.

@mouthpiece200

3 жыл бұрын

Monarchy must contain many judges too. No king has the time or interest to hear every case.

@ctrlaltdebug

3 жыл бұрын

@mouthpiece200 1 monarch > 9 SCOTUS judges. He's still the supreme authority even if he delegates to lower courts.

@mouthpiece200

3 жыл бұрын

@@ctrlaltdebug SCOTUS judges don't get to make competing rulings. All 9 judges come up with one unified decision. Monarchy = One judgement = SCOTUS = One judgement.

@ctrlaltdebug

3 жыл бұрын

@mouthpiece200 invalid logic. Democracy only has one outcome in an election also.

@9:57 “no I’m not!“ “yes you are!” Always the sign of a fruitful conversation.

@stevenwilliams1805

3 жыл бұрын

What is it about some people who can't get to this point without becoming violently angry?

These are the types of arguments I'm here for! Thanks to both sides for the no-holds-barred discussion. Malice is always great at provoking other people. In the end I agree with Yaron, but like a true gentleman Michael challenges Brooks' ideas then allows him to express his brilliancy for the rest of us to understand. Great job!

They are simultaneously both wrong and both wrong, and both brilliant.

The whole debate is Yaron trying to scurry around his inconsistencies.

@alexduran2881

Ай бұрын

Idk man the anarchist guy is an idiot wants the vibes of the western frontier but i know damn well he’s getting maxed out just based on his entitlement/arrogance the older man has no cockiness to him hes just proud of his country as he should be dude he grew up with badasses in WW1,2 and he grew up in the best housing market like you can’t blame hime for liking what he got out of the USA our Generation (1999) or mine lol) was definitely not lucky but my parents understand that and they are helping me and my sis out with applying for first time buyer loans and getting us to build our credit ,co-signed cause they knew i would be good to keep up the payments and their interest rates were obviously nowhere near mine .And when they sell the house me and my sister get 10 percent each of a 425k house thats stiff .They are parents so their first job is to guide us to residual income then we spend profits on us :) 😊

Enjoyed this so much.

GREAT CONVERSATION

3:36 i like how Lex is smiling when Michael talks about Atlas Shrugged. He knows :D

Michael Malice saying PayPal is better at resolving conflict than current law. Dude, are you for real?

@FazeParticles

3 жыл бұрын

yes. is he not for real?

They are both right - Yaron is correct that there is an unsolvable problem if you have no government, of competing security forces devolving into unchecked violence - Malice is right that the government is the biggest violator of liberties It seems to me the only solution is a sort of libertarianism- a libertarian leaning version of our system in the US or western liberal democracy in general - you have to have some sort of constitutional rights and a final system for protecting and defending those rights(Yaron's point about government being essential), but you also need to severely limit that government(which goes to Michael's point) I think Malice embraces anarchism because he doesn't believe that you can do the first part (constitution, etc...) without it inevitably devolving into some sort of centralized power - this goes to what Malice says early in the clip about Jefferson's concerns regarding the constitution. This debate is awesome - precisely because it is an unsolvable problem and therefore both participants have a valid point.

@freetrade8830

Жыл бұрын

The entire point of a constitution is to limit the government to its only purpose which is to protect individual rights. The problem we have today is that we have culturally adopted a philosophy which calls for rights violations. That philosophy is altruism - the philosophy of sacrifice.

@davidb5711

Жыл бұрын

You say: "Malice is right that the government is the biggest violator of liberties". Yaron believes this also.

@victorygarden556

6 ай бұрын

😂 libertarianism devolves into authoritarianism because it allows government. Just stand up for yourself without government

I LOVE THIS DEBATE ! SO GOOD !

I think the salient point on the issue of the functional basis for apply market dynamics to both law and science (which was missed in this video) is that the most significant advances in both science and law have in fact taken place during times of great competition. emigration causes countries to reassess policy in order to retain citizens, war causes breakthroughs in science because of there necessity.

I like a lot of what Michael has to say, but I also agree that he uses extremely convenient definitions of words to aid his arguments, and often entirely ignores how the vast majority of people would define a word.

@ohranjegallante1203

3 жыл бұрын

What you don't consider is what the vast majority of people have been taught about these subjects has been wrong. What he said there is true for the political philosophers and how they defined these themselves. The reason anarchy is understood the way it is is because of a group of communist anarchists that did riots and looting in 19th century USA. That's where the whole 'well, this is total anarchy' type of thing comes from.

@rickybobby6028

3 жыл бұрын

Literally, anarchy = without rulers. This objective definition beats any subjective interpretation.

@chrismitchell523

3 жыл бұрын

@@ohranjegallante1203 The point of communication isnt to be right. Its to be interpreted correctly by your audience.

@ohranjegallante1203

3 жыл бұрын

@@chrismitchell523 Doesn't seem like you watched the video because he cleared this misunderstanding of anarchy for this very reason.

This was great

Between 28:30 and 29:30 is the reference I'm talking about... Could you imagine AI judges? Someone just types in code for what the facts are and the AI comes up with innocent or guilty? This would also combat racism because it's not looking at skin color or name, etc... The code would have to be 100% open source though, so some rogue guy doesn't make it bias. I'm not saying I want this, but there are pros and cons for it, and it's a damn interesting idea.

Which table would you prefer: 1: 3 persons. 1 Has a gun. 2: 3 persons. All have a gun.