In my conclusion I didn't touch on the 2 scsi device drivers. If you are using media up to say 8gb in size then I highly recommend scsi.device.44.20. Its faster all round but is limited to that 4gb partition size. With media over say 12gb your going to be into more than 3 partitions which might get a bit much to manage so revert back to scsi.device.43.45. Does anyone know of any other scsi.device drivers to try? Oh and before I get crucified in the comments for my final recommendation I fully understand CF and SD cards are easier to work with and there are accessible options for them. In terms of pure speed though the IDE cannot be beat hence why it remains my recommendation. Yes its mechanical, yes it might fail at some point and yes it generates heat but I have other mechanical drives that are 40 years old and going strong and the heat generated from a modern 2.5" drive isn't that much. The newer drives are also essentially silent.

@xubidoo4415

4 жыл бұрын

i also have the same gold coloured Sandisk ultra 16gb CF card u bought , but im only getting around 2.2 mb/s on drive dh0: in sysinfo , how do i check which version of scsi.device im on ? I'm running a CD32 with TF330 , so my score is quite a bit lower than yours using the same CF card.

@CRG

4 жыл бұрын

@@xubidoo4415 open shell and type version scsi.device

@daishi5571

3 жыл бұрын

@CRG Have you ever used a Disk on Module (DOM) drive. They have both a 44 (normally for 3.5") and 40 pin IDE connector available and it's designed as an industrial solid state IDE drive replacement. And KS 3.1.4.comes with scsi.device 45.7 which does not have the 4GB limitation

@CRG

3 жыл бұрын

Yes I know of DOMs, well I do since making this video. If heard reports of some people struggling to get them working but I'll get myself one (someday) to try. That's good to know about 3.1.4. I don't have a copy of the rom, I don't really need it, but it would be interesting to see how it compares in speed to the others.

@georgemaragos2378

3 жыл бұрын

@@CRG Hi - Interesting results. But it goes against what i have been experiencing with my PC's Like you mentioned Compact Flash - is pin to pin the same as IDE, thus it can use the entire IDE channel speed or more importantly not suffer any speed drop SD/MMC cards should be slower as they use a chip to translate / convert from SD to IDE standard, so there will be some drop in performance. Disk On Module ( DOM ) - i have 2 thin clients and they each have DOM circuit - they come in 40 and 44 pin configuration but the pins are a different socket layout, 40 needs power and 44 does not - as the DOM are in my thin clients and i dont have a pin converter from DOM to IDE i cannot do a comparison in the thin clients or the PC's i have. Yes the one thing i cant get out of my head is that in say my Pentium 100 or P2-200, they have CF cards - i can format to a full dos 6.22 2G partition about 10 seconds - even the best mechanical IDE drive with just a fdisk and a 2G partition will take more than a minute if not 2 , i know my slow Conner 400meg hard drives from @ 1992 take about 15 mins each to format - yes things have come a long way Out of curiosity - I do have a Pentium 4 that uses a PATA to SATA adapter - it is a piggy back board that goes in the back of a modern SATA drive ( or SSD ) and has the IDE interface and molex connector on the other end of the board so that you can do a "modern drop in replacement" - have you tried this for your Amiga's Regards george

Thanks for this real useful comparison. Time to try some of my old IDE drives out! Cheers, M

Interesting video, thanks for doing the legwork. I'm currently in the process of resurrecting my Amigas and I was going to use SD for convenience (already done a WHDload on CD32) but might have to dig out the old CF cards for the 1200 and 4000.

Thanks for the video. The choice of file system makes a big difference, too. I recently found out on my Amiga 500 with a pistorm2 CPU replacement running ShapeShifter (Classic Mac emulator). Emulation with my Mac hardfiles on a FastFileSystem ran very slowly despite pistorm acceleration being several magnitudes that of the original A500. Putting my hardfiles on a PFS3 (pfs3aio to be precise) made a huge difference. Perhaps a topic for another video? Keep up the good work!

Currently swapping out my Cf Card option for a IDE Drive thank you Buddy finally Definitive Proof!

@nathanmilnthorpe11

4 жыл бұрын

Might I say Kudos on Top Quality Production as of Late! I know we are all Stuck indoors but am I not the only one Digging the new Videos :-)

Great video, really appreciate it.

Great work. I'd be curious if there is a measurable difference in seek times, and how boot times compare between these options.

@CRG

4 жыл бұрын

Following some of the comments and suggestions here I'll be doing a follow up video in which I'll certainly add boot time to the test.

Interesting. But thease are synthetic tests I think. The real performance check is when writing / reading multiple files at the same time, or with fragmented discs. I think then the IDE drive will fall behind. I have a CF-Card in my A1200 with an ACA 1233n, and think the speed is very good. (not yet compared with your values). Anyway, good video :)

I would definitely use an hdd myself on my A1200 but the indivision aga makes it impossible (no room). I use cf cards but they all start to mulfunction at some point or straight up die.

WOW! I just had my mind blown - I'd never have thought that a mechanical hard disk would be the fastest. Thanks for doing all those tests on our behalf :D This video earned you a new Subscriber :D On a side note: Where can i buy one of those lovely ACA1233n cards? All stores seem to be out of stock at this moment (2020-07-20) :(

@CRG

3 жыл бұрын

No problem and thank you for subscribing. If I can ever get the MSATA working I'll do a follow up video comparing it too. The only accelerator I can find in stock is the ACA1233n-55 and that's on individual computers website. It is somewhat expensive though and personally I'd be tempted to wait and see what price tag the TF1260 asks. I don't think it would be much more. In fact you could almost buy a vampire for the price of the ACA.

@BertGrink

3 жыл бұрын

@@CRG Thanks for the quick reply, it does you honour. Yes, I noticed the -55 version too and as you say, it's a bit pricey. As for an 060 board, I am not really into that; I have tried a Blizzard 1260 + 16MB of memory in the past, and I found that in Maths-heavy work it was actually a bit slower than my A1200 with just 4 Megs of Fast RAM but *with* a 68881 FPU. As you are probably aware, the '040 and '060 CPUs have a cut-down version of the FPU onboard, and there's no option for an external FPU (sigh) hence my desire for a nice '030 based board with (optionally) an FPU. Recently, however, I realised that the A1200 main board itself seems to have room for an FPU so I need to investigate that avenue a bit more as well. In any case, I will have to save up some money first; being a pensioner isn't exactly a goldmine hehe. ;) So for now I'm mostly using emulation, which is quite fine anyway. At least you can play with "hardware" that you don't actually have.

@CRG

3 жыл бұрын

​@@BertGrink I don't know of anyone that has done it but apparently that FPU point on the A1200 motherboard when populated works fine. Probably better to use a memory expansion with FPU onboard though. I'm not 100% sure but I think the FPU point on the motherboard uses the same clock as the CPU whereas on the memory cards you can get it faster. Emulation is always a great option for testing stuff but I do admit I prefer the real thing. There was talk of an adaption of the CD32 accelerator, TF330, coming to the A1200 but it seems to have died as not heard anything in a long time. Probably of no use for you anyway since it doesn't have an FPU socket. All I can suggest is keep watching for a new batch of 030 accelerators or keep an eye on amibay. I always make a point of reading every comment and responding where I can. You lot take time to watch my content so its the least I can do in return.

@BertGrink

3 жыл бұрын

@@CRG Well, the idea of the FPU on the motherboard was admittedly a dark horse of sorts, and I certainly wouldn't have expected it to run any faster than the 68EC020 itself (14.28MHz). Besides, I already have a FPU on my 4 meg RAM expansion, it was just an idea that popped into my head the other day. As you say, and I wholly agree, my best bet is to be alert for new batches of the ACA1233n or similar boards, or for whatever may turn up on the second-hand market. Thanks for reminding me of amibay by the way; I have spent so much time scouring ebay that I forgot that amibay is a thing (bows head in shame). Hopefully something turns up in the future. Until next time :)

@NozomuYume

3 жыл бұрын

@@CRG Another option is a Disk-on-Module (DOM). These are essentially native IDE SSDs designed to go directly into industrial systems without much physical space. They slot directly into the IDE port without a cable. You can get them for both 3.5" and 2.5" IDE connectors. They also work with a cable if you really need them to.

Hi there. Great work on this comparison video. I seen it and wonder if you have tried an IDE2MSata ? I was tasked to get and old laptop to work again, and it was the harddrive that was beginning to give up (IDE harddrive). Finding a new harddrive for it was hard, but in the search i found a IDE2MSata 240GB for about half the price of a new IDE 40GB drive. After seeing your video, i wonder if you would try that as well.

@CRG

3 жыл бұрын

I've tried 2 different IDE to MSATA adapters and cannot for the life of me get it working on the real machine. Works fine in WinUAE and I know others have got it working on the real 1200 but for me it just refuses to boot. I'll have to get another MSATA card and try that.

@PATTHECATMCD

3 жыл бұрын

@@CRG I don't know if it helps you but as far as I know there are 3 different types. Most basic one is just a card, no mounting holes, with 44 pins. This can be 3,3 volt control lines so doesn't work with the Amiga, but ones reported as 5 volt and working. Lowest cost type. The second type come with a plastic case, and have 3 different sets of mounting holes for different lengths of msata card. They also have 2 additional sets of pins on the connector, and apparently these are meant to implement master/slave or cable select on the IDE side. The last category come with a metal case, and again have the extra pins for master and cable select. The original one comes from Japan and is apparently the design from which the others sprang up (with various mods). I have read a few reviews of PC users saying they couldn't get the latter 2 types working until they had set master/slave/cable select set right. If you are connecting via usb that's not an issue, but it might be connecting to an IDE controller with a cable or drive mismatch.

Toshiba 4gb Microdrive and a CF2IDE adaptor. That is the best choice.

I’m here because, I’ve just got my A1200 out of storage and it looks as good as the day (1993) I bought it! Time to mod me thinks 😉 Great video, thanks for the information. 👍

@CRG

3 жыл бұрын

I'm sure you've been told this a 1000 times already but make sure to get it recapped. Those pesky surface mount capacitors leak and best to replace them now before you get a fault. The 1200 is a great machine, drop some fast ram in there, a hard drive and you'll have access to the full WHDLoad library.

@Dizzy_Hites

3 жыл бұрын

@@CRG Thanks for the info, I'm actually watching your recap video at the moment. I will need to invest in an air & soldering station though, any recommendations?

@CRG

3 жыл бұрын

@@Dizzy_Hites The one I use I got from Amazon, cost about £100. Its no longer made but there are similar at this price point. Only thing I had to do was buy more nozzles for the air and better tips for the iron but in all still cheaper than the bigger branded units. If you're just doing the one though I'd recommend sending the board to be recapped by someone experienced. There are a good few in the Amiga community that do it and its not expensive, about £40.

@Dizzy_Hites

3 жыл бұрын

​@@CRG I'm sending off my Amiga for a recap soon, what's your thoughts on the Polymer capacitors option, is it safe and worthwhile?

@CRG

3 жыл бұрын

I've seen people use them in the past. Personally I don't bother but each to their own. The normal electrolytics work fine for me and are what was on there originally so I'm happy to replace like for like. I don't think it'll do any harm using polymers though so if that's your preference go for it.

I have two bits of info on the SD card front. First SD cards in a Digigear SD to CF adapter used in place of a true CF card are reported to be faster than the SD to ide adapters alone. Second there is new SD type marked A1 which reported to be better as an OS device than older types. I have two Pentium one systems I hope convert to solid state storage. The A1 type SD card is from a Raspberry Pi use case report. I hope this helps other retro computer people. keeping these old systems up is a challenge. Thanks and good luck.

@CRG

4 жыл бұрын

Thanks for the info. I am planning a follow up to this video taking on board the various comments so I'll try to source the cf to sd adapter and the A1 type of sd card for testing.

@jeffreyplum5259

4 жыл бұрын

@@CRG Thanks. There also is a Laptop 44 pin IDE to MSATA adapter. If you can adapt your IDE interface (usually 40 pin with a power cable ) to the 44-pin Laptop standard, you can have a Msata SSD. This adapter.works like a HDD. It is not removable. Nor do I know if it can be paired with another IDE device . BTW while checking on the Msata adapter, I found both 44 and 40 pin IDE host to SATA device adapters, supporting drives up to 500GB. Good luck!!

I'd say the biggest performance hit is the interface between the eide cable and the drive. I have a 128gb going through 2 interfaces, m.2 to sata then sata to eide. Theoreticly, i should be able to get 10mb/s but scsi doesn't play nice.

did you ever get round to doing a follow up video on this i cant seem to find it ?.

@CRG

Жыл бұрын

No I never did make another video although not for the pack of trying. I think I went through 3 maybe 4 different ide to sata type connectors and none of them worked. I know some other folk have got them working before but they just don't for me.

As you said in the video getting new IDE drives is an issue. Absolutely agree HDs are the most performant. But if someone is reviving a 27 year old computer, their use case is they just want to get it up and running as cheaply as possible. For me the SD adaptor works fine if all you are doing is creating a WHDLoad build with a load of games. Disk performance for most games is not an issue since the majority of games were designed to run of floppy. Where you are reading only!

@CRG

3 жыл бұрын

As I said if you're just playing game it doesn't really matter which you use. I see some people have managed to get ssds working on their machine but for the life of me I can't get it to work. If I ever do figure it out I'll come back to this to see how they compare.

@fasih_rehman

3 жыл бұрын

@@CRG sorry I must have missed that bit. Great channel keep the vids coming.

Interesting comparison ... Why are the results so much better on the CD32, compared to a similar accelerated A1200?

@CRG

4 жыл бұрын

As far as I know its because of the modern implementation used for ide on the TF330. If you could get a fast ata controller for the 1200 I think the results would be similar to the CD32.

@Harp00nX

4 жыл бұрын

@@CRG definitely something changed as I only get roughly 2.3mb/sec on my CV 060 in my A4000 (using SysInfo with a CF card).

@xubidoo4415

4 жыл бұрын

@@Harp00nX must something different in CRG's setup as with the same setup as him "CD32+TF330" and same cf card im getting 2.2mb/s on mine.

what about scsi.device.47.5 ????

Is that a 2007FPb monitor? Just wondered how you connect it.

@CRG

4 ай бұрын

It's hooked up via a gbs8200 scan doubler. I've since mooded one of these with gbscontrol which I'd highly recommend doing.

Why you dont do ide speeder tests with aca1233n? :D

@CRG

4 ай бұрын

I did test with the accelerator from about 11 minutes into the video.

@CRG I've realised I need to upgrade my roms, I've noticed you are using 3.1, any reason to not go to 3.x ?

@CRG

3 жыл бұрын

If you want to use OS3.9 then you need the 3.1 roms. These days though if your going to upgrade its probably better going for 3.1.4, that's the latest release with all the bug fixes etc. That said though if you're just playing games 3.0 roms are fine. My spare 1200 has those and it's happy with its 8mb fast ram, 40gb hard drive and basic OS3.1 install. Yes you can run workbench 3.1 on 3.0 roms.

@Dizzy_Hites

3 жыл бұрын

@@CRG Thanks, I'm going for the 3.1 40.068 licensed by Amiga Forever, I presume they are the ones you mean? btw, I've just ordered an A1200 8MB RAM EXPANSION 12690 from Amigakit.

@CRG

3 жыл бұрын

@@Dizzy_Hites it was actually this one I was referring to www.hyperion-entertainment.com/index.php/where-to-buy/direct-downloads/188-amigaos-314 There's nothing wrong with the older 3.1 roms from Amiga Forever it's just the 3.1.4 is newer with the latest patches etc.

@Dizzy_Hites

3 жыл бұрын

@@CRG Thanks again, understood loud and clear, I will purchase the licence from Hyperion and use a burn service to get those roms, difficult to locate a UK supplier who has stock! Once again, thank you. Your responses and channel content has been very helpful 😀

@CRG

3 жыл бұрын

If you ever need help with anything else just shout. I've been on the lookout for an eeprom burner myself actually. Just not jumped in and got one yet but really could use it for Amiga roms and XTIDE on the old PC builds.

If higher is better, Hard drive is king ;) If lower is better ... Its card time!

@CRG

4 жыл бұрын

Higher numbers = faster drive. If you're just playing games it doesn't mean much but it's always nice to get as much performance as possible out of these old machines.

did you retrobrite your case? subscribed!

@CRG

3 жыл бұрын

No, it's just been well looked after over the years.

@billcarson9565

3 жыл бұрын

@@CRG are there specific hard drives that will only work with the a1200 and a600? i have 2x a600 2x a1200 and an a500 all have been boxed for since 1998/1999 time to go back to my childhood

@CRG

3 жыл бұрын

@@billcarson9565 in terms of real mechanical drives they all should work up to 128GB. I've never had an issue with any drive in my 1200s. CF cards on the other hand can be a bit hit and miss. Another reason I like to stick to the mechanical drives.

@billcarson9565

3 жыл бұрын

@@CRG thanks i will get on with trying them out and recapping and get back to you. also really dig the man cave layout!

@CRG

3 жыл бұрын

@@billcarson9565 Thanks, do let me know how you get on. Always nice to see more Amiga's being brought back to life.

What about HDDs for Amiga 500? Is there a SD card one?

@CRG

Жыл бұрын

Sorry for the late reply. For the A500 you will first need something to give you an IDE port such as the IDE68K, ACA500plus or terrible fire accelerator. After than you can then attached your media of choice. I'd probably use a CF card or SD card since they are small and light so can be supported by the IDE header itself.

How would it look with modern, high speed SD Cards that can do 60MB/s write on USB3.0 Card Readers?

@CRG

3 жыл бұрын

Honestly I think performance would be similar but if you had one and try it, please let me know how it performs.

@Stefan_Payne

3 жыл бұрын

@@CRGI sadly don't have the tools tomeasure that. But a decent speed (50MB Write, 100MB read) is something rediculous - like 5-15 pound (or €uros) If that makes a difference depends on where the bottleneck is, if its the card, the interface or the adapter/translation. It just came to mind because I used an older 2GB SDCard recently and that one was topping out at 2MB/sec writing. My fastest card is 30 times the speed (the mentioned 60MB/sec).

Who knows what speed is with MicroDrive CF on naked A1200 with only fast ram.

What was the rotation speed of the IDE hard drive 5400 or 7200rpm? Have you tried a 7200rpm drive?

@CRG

4 жыл бұрын

I believe it is 5400 but I'll double check and take a look through other drives to see if I can find a 7200 rpm.

@CRG

4 жыл бұрын

I checked and the drive used in the test is actually only 4200rpm. I've found a 5400rpm drive that I'm setting up now for a comparison but given some of the other requests and suggestions in the comments here I think I'll do a follow up video covering that. Need to get some parts first though and I'll try to get a 7200rpm drive too.

@BertGrink

3 жыл бұрын

@@CRG Do 2½" HDDs with 7200RPM even exist? I have never seen one. I guess the reason they are so rare (assuming that they actually exist) is twofold: power consumption and heat.

@CRG

3 жыл бұрын

@@BertGrink Yes they do exist but I haven't been able to source one yet at a reasonable price (I'm not paying £40 for a used drive). I do have a 5400rpm drive and have tested that. It is marginally faster again and yes there is more heat generated. I'm in no rush but once I get all the parts sourced for a follow up I'll be comparing heat as well as speed.

@BertGrink

3 жыл бұрын

@@CRG Do you by any chance plan to get the new 3.1.4 Kickstart ROMs? It would be interesting to see how this version compares to the 3.0 or 3.1 ROMs.

With my 030 and 1200 i got little bit better results with SD card than exist CF Card :) Its the easiest to make HD image with PC too :)

@CRG

4 жыл бұрын

Out of interest what brand of SD card are you using and is it direct SD to IDE or SD to CF to IDE?

I have used IDE (2.5 & 3.5 inch) CF, SD and even a 4 GB Hitachi MicroDrive (ex -- iPod I believe). Not impressed with CF = Many died and relatively expensive.

@nathanmilnthorpe11

4 жыл бұрын

Ive had three CF Cards Crap them selves this Year! "High end" too

@f1lupo

3 жыл бұрын

so true CF cards have bad reliability for sure !

SD

What about SATA2IDE and SSD?

@CRG

4 жыл бұрын

I tried that and couldn't get it to boot on the real machines. Worked fine with WinUAE but nothing on the Amiga. I tried both a sata ssd and sata spinner drive, neither worked so it must by my sata 2 ide converter. I'll maybe try to get another converter and try again. I'd like to know how it stacks up against the ide drive.

@Harp00nX

4 жыл бұрын

@@CRG mSata ssd's work with an adapter.... someone did a guide for it on EAB but I can't remember who atm

@CRG

4 жыл бұрын

@@Harp00nX I tried a sata to 44pin ide adapter but it won't boot on the real thing. I do have another sata to 40pin ide but that's a bit more complicated to wire up. I'll have a look through EAB and see if there is something more I can do to get it working. Would like to put ssd to the test also.

@Harp00nX

4 жыл бұрын

Here it is: eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=83491 It's mSata not standard Sata and like you i've never been able to boot from a sata device in a real Amiga. I'm surprised a hardware maker hasn't come up with a Zorro card solution for that for big boxes i'm sure a lot of people would be interested with the possibility to add 6 sata drives on one controller.

@CRG

4 жыл бұрын

Ahhh mSata. I get confused with this new fangled hardware. If I can get an mSata drive cheap enough I'll certainly test it too.

On a stock amiga 1200 ......with 4 megs of extra ram and ab 030...like I said. Stock

@CRG

4 жыл бұрын

The tests are run on the the stock amiga, then run with the 4mb fast ram fitted and finally with the 030 accelerator fitted.

I just got 9mb/s on a sidecar connected to one of my Amiga500's without any accelerator.

9mb/sec is impressive. The question is, how much speed would one need for some general use and whdload gaming. I would take a CF/SD card over a real HD any day. Not only are the HDs old and with mechanical parts, but they have noise. A CF/SD card in an Amiga like the 1200 means the system will be totally silent.

@CRG

4 жыл бұрын

As I said at the end if your just playing games then any cf or sd card is fast enough. Old drives from the mid 90s can be noisy but the slimmer drives from the mid 00s are silent. Both my 1200s have mechanical drives, 1x 40gb 5400rpm and 1x 80gb 4200rpm and I can't hear either running.

Why don't you try NVME SSD using an NVME to IDE :)

Interesting video. You could do without the background soundtrack!

@CRG

3 жыл бұрын

Personally I find videos without some music bed a bit boring hence why I have it there. In more recent videos I have turned it down a bit more though so its not as noticeable.

@SussexHistory

3 жыл бұрын

@@CRG Quite a lot of tutorial videos like this put music between sections and don't have it going on continuously. How about 'Shadow of the Beast"? Keep the videos coming. Thanks for uploading.

You're from Scotland, right? That accent is, IMHO, the best sounding amongst all English speakers.

@BenJamesNewman

2 жыл бұрын

Irish my friend.