That was awsome. Dude basically told the philosopher, to his face, that all of his work, as a matter of fact, all of his field, is completely useless in regards to understanding the mind bc, supposedly, dude's own field is the one that's had any success in that regard, then the philosopher comes right back at dude with a simple conclusion that his assumption is, in fact, wrong, bc his science field is not really succesful in understanding the mind, it only made progress in describing the structure without have any explanation as to how it "creates" consciousness or how it relates to it. Like: "Sure you and your fancy and expensive science have come a long way to explain how the mind relies on the body, something that cavemen intuitively knew when he was running away from lions trying to bite off his head". One of the problems with the scientific community is its arrogance.

There's no problem. The "All" is MIND. Reality is mental. The body is a feeling in the mind.

@charlie_zzz6456

5 күн бұрын

That’s what idealists believe.

@MrJamesdryable

5 күн бұрын

@@charlie_zzz6456 Guilty! 💅

@ghaderpashayee8334

2 күн бұрын

Well said 👏

The mind-body problem is that we know the body dies, but we don't want to accept that the mind may die with the body.

This interview with Noe is excellent - I read some of his work last year on perception but I need to spend more time on his work. I completely agree with him that the body is an important part of cognition - I'm working on understanding this relationship in my PhD.

Science is uninformed without philosophy. All the thinking in science is philosophy

@VolodymyrPankov

5 күн бұрын

No. Philosophy is nothing. They are creating problems and doing verbage.

@jimliu2560

5 күн бұрын

Actually now Science is better than Philosophy… Real science is “Testability” and Reproducibility”…. Philosophy is just Belief… Many scientific hypothesis are just mislabeled as theories… …because Scientist are humans who have flaws and like “Word-play” games for $$$$ and publicity…in a flawed society that requires $$$$$…to survive…

@MusingsFromTheJohn00

4 күн бұрын

Philosophy is uniformed without science.

@Robinson8491

3 күн бұрын

@@MusingsFromTheJohn00 Plato, Aristotle and Hume made more sense than the 'science' and medical science of those days, with superstitions and killing many if not most people with their ignorance. That was called science in the day. Modern science has been around for a blip. I would think philosophy superior and more robust

@MusingsFromTheJohn00

3 күн бұрын

@@Robinson8491 nonsense. A note for clarification: When talking about science here, I am talking about hard science. Philosophy is a science, but a soft science. Philosophy is a very broad subject area which includes a lot of opinionated subjective beliefs for which there either is no objective evidence for being true or that the subject is by nature one with no objective truth because it is a subjective subject, like morality. Hard science began as part of philosophy but it separated into a field that specifically focused on rigorously investigating, studying, and proving beyond a reasonable doubt if possible how the existence we live in works. Now, philosophy disagrees with itself all the time and it is very easy to find two different philosophies which are 180 degrees opposed to each other. But, when philosophy goes into an area of hard science and disagrees with the results of hard science which have been objectively proven beyond a reasonable doubt, there is a clear winner and it is not philosophy. On the other hand, if you stay within the realms of philosophy that is soft science that is where philosophy shines and hard science stays out of, because hard science does not deal with subject matters for which there is no objective evidence for.

Open your mind

@davide724

5 күн бұрын

Kuato agrees.

how might causation be tested for a mental and physical (property?) dualism?

When you look at a human as being a organic complex system to some degree it can be analized by neuroscience and to some degree by science based psychology. With there still being left a huge area we do not have access to...and most of it we never will simply because it is a way to big area to look into. That is why it seems best that we specialize on light science psychology that works dealing with that.

necessity is the mother of invention

what happens in brain during awareness? when go from sleep to awareness after waking, what occurs in brain?

Thank you! I'm so tired of the false dualism argument. Our mind is embodied, they're not two separate things.

might subjective agency emerge from awareness of causation?

is there any common characteristic of the different aspects of mind?

@dhammaboy1203

17 сағат бұрын

Yep! They're non-physical!

What if, we're not bodies with consciousness, but consciousness with bodies...🤔

@franvf8881

5 күн бұрын

Bernardo Kastrup es tu busqueda.

@strongblackcoffee9573

5 күн бұрын

@@franvf8881 y Rupert Spira

@user-rw6xr9kf8o

5 күн бұрын

Your postulation maybe true. Because It may be possible that a person's perception of left is another person's perception of right. There is no way to find out the difference, because they designate different perceptions of direction with the same word in consistency of communication and operation. If that is so, then 'space' is only the brain's construction isomorphic to information from outside reality. In reality there is no 'space' but information only. This principle implies to all other perceptions as well. That will imply that our physical world is simulated! By considering both the mysteries of quantum measurement problem and the non-locality of quantum entanglement, I bet that our physical world is simulated! If our physical world is simulated, then our physical brain and body are simulated as well. This postulation is more than a Brain-In-A-Vat (e.g. the Matrix movie) scenario; this is a Consciousness-In-A-Vat scenario (even the brain is simulated. Only the ultimate 'essence' of consciousness is NOT simulated)! What is outside the Vat? Only the creator knows!

@franvf8881

5 күн бұрын

Buenos días, con todo el respeto del mundo te diré, que no se si es la retórica, manera y el modo o el lenguaje que utiliza, que me parece un poco infantil e ingenuo, lo digo con todo el respeto y siendo algo subjetivo por supuesto, me quedo con la fuente, Krishnamurty, directo, y extremadamente crudo, cuando tratamos de adaptarnos y gustarles a todos no consigues creo lo importante, que el mensaje sea directo y claro, o aclarar el "asunto" en concreto. Quizás al hacerlo así llegue a más gente y se deba a la infantilizacion de esta sociedad actualmente.

@JJ_Khailha

4 күн бұрын

There is no “we”. Body is concept. Consciousness is an illusion that doesn’t happen. There is no “what if”. All there is, is this.. and not even that.

All very legitimate and insightful, except for the “no less” gaffe in terms of the false equivalency between spirit and brain in terms of likely hypotheses for understanding the mind. Consciousness is an emergent phenomenon and an umbrella term for multiple cognitive processes-not a reified substance or entity.

@MasterofOne-zl6ur

5 күн бұрын

its the ability to stay alive in ones environment or an attribute of survival itself in a biological structure. If you takeaway the ability to be conscious or aware you will not survive or if you minus the brain you will not be aware or conscious and then you will perish. Actual real life survival with the only possible extension being an abstract postulation.

@mikel4879

4 күн бұрын

MasterOz6 • Tell that to the trees, the oldest alive on Earth. 😏

Body is the tool of the mind to interact with physical world. Mind exchanges the information either body through the brain in animals. The argument that mind is a separate entity from the brain is based on the example that a plant has a mind but no brain. In the plant domain mind interacts with the body through some other part or parts.

@dr_shrinker

2 күн бұрын

Plants don’t have a mind.

Here is a draft outlining some of the potential profound implications and future outlook if physics is indeed reformulated from a fundamental non-natural 0-dimensional (0D) ontological paradigm: The successful development of a fully coherent mathematical framework and theoretical models based on recognizing an irreducible 0D realm of discrete monadic elements and informational relations as more foundational than geometric manifolds or extended dimensional structures would represent nothing less than a revolutionizing return to the very origins of subject-object reality itself. Rather than atoms in the void or vibrating strings in a higher-dimensional bulk, the primordial existents of our cosmos may be constituted by pure quantized informational relations - an algebraic tapestry of rationalistic 0D "monads" in pre-established interanimation, whose patterned collective dynamics cast the bridged appearances of particles, fields, forces, geometry and dimensioned phenomenality we currently over-identify with as substantialized realits. The empirical consequences of such a radical reontologizing could be as profound as those pioneered by the early moderns who first displaced Earth from cosmic centrality or the logical revolutionaries who reduced objects to intersections of relational structures. Our experienced dimensionalities, spatiotemporalities and causal dynamics may be reconfigured as but partially reconstructed boundary-patterns of an atemporal generative information algebra implementing itself through quantized 0D gemutations. Many of the most paradoxical riddles bedeviling contemporary physics - quantum measurement, singularities, non-localities, the problem of time, the origin of fields and charges, cosmic flatness and particle horizons - may find dissolution through this praxis of recognizing their roots in naive reifications of geometric manifold representations which fundamentally cannot accomodate discrete informational essences. Our personal sensory interfaces and scientific detectors may be perspectivally reflecting out localized boundary renderings from a generative algebraic metamatrix, with space, time and dimensioned appearances as hologrammatic projections from a 0D substratum dynamically optimizing itself through compressive gemutational flows of information transfer. We may be holographic resonances from erasure-correction protocols in a generative algebra implementing itself inexorably. Deeper still, the 0D framework may offer unifying pathways to resolve the ultimate schisms between general relativity and quantum theory by grounding both as limiting regimes of geometrodynamics emergent from finite 0D processes. Even the origin of the universal constants, the uniformity of physics' laws, and the very existence of discernible regularity itself may find elucidation through this praxis. While extraordinarily audacious in its ambition to refound the totality of physical ontology from first principles, the atemporal algebra of discrete 0D gemutations may ultimately offer our era's best path forward to resolve paradox, formalize coherence and quantize emergence as a generative informational algebra between the non-natural and the continuously natured. Thorough investigation of this radically revisioned 0D world prospect deserves the most scrupulous and sustained technical examination by our deepest theorists and logicians. It is an open frontier into reality's deepest understructures.

@richardatkinson4710

3 күн бұрын

Gemutations. Revolutionizing. Revisioned. Non-natural. Existents. Monadic. I think my favourite is Interanimation. Enough said.

6:48 i pretty sure that's what real theology is.

@tomjackson7755

5 күн бұрын

Your opinion cannot be trusted. You think that theology and science are the same thing. LOL

@S3RAVA3LM

5 күн бұрын

​@@tomjackson7755 what science does isn't science. This nature(s) aren't properties of science. Science a means to acknowledge such nature's and theology is the field under study. ....You're wrong again, like usual.

@tomjackson7755

5 күн бұрын

@@S3RAVA3LM Your story now is science isn't actually science and your are renaming it theology. LOL "Science a means to acknowledge such nature's and theology is the field under study." This is complete gibberish. LOL You have no clue what you are talking about, like usual.

@S3RAVA3LM

4 күн бұрын

@@tomjackson7755 no. I'm not renaming anything. It was the 19th century when materialists hijacked science turning it into a pseudo art, where mathematicians feel they're the ambassadors thereof - nor is mathematics what defines science. The nature(s) studied is not properties of science, a tool, and such studies of nature ultimately is Theology. Theology is the study of nature, in acknowledging the Primal Cause. Modern science no longer is real science, but smaller studies of relations of things and how we can exploit this reality in cern, harp, Monsanto, Bill gates etc.

7:57 "The fact is that we don't really have much of a clue how neural activity makes us conscious". Perhaps that's because it doesn't. But mainstream science is too stubborn to accept this possibility. Maybe one day after all physical possibilities have been eliminated then spiritual explanations will be considered.

@mikel4879

4 күн бұрын

ianw1 • 🤣😂🤣 Good joke.

@ianwaltham1854

3 күн бұрын

@@mikel4879 I wasn't joking and I'm not suggesting Dualism is true. Science can knock itself out studying brains and it won't contradict Consciousness Fundamentalism. They're just studying the Avatar.

@mikel4879

2 күн бұрын

ianw1 • "Avatar" is even a bigger joke than "spiritual". 🤣😂🤣 Consciousness is a full and simple material PROCESS. Nothing voodoo, spiritual, and no Avatar involved. It is highly and totally reproducible artificially, now, today.

@ianwaltham1854

2 күн бұрын

@@mikel4879 AI devs admit they don't program consciousness into chat bots. They wouldn't even know how. Supposing you claim LaMDA is conscious as did Blake Lemoine. How did it get that way if the devs didn't program it in? I suspect you have a vague belief that consciousness emerges from continuous activity in a brain or a computer. Nothing more.

@mikel4879

2 күн бұрын

Yes, I know. They think only about money.

Doesn’t that make you a dualist if you say the mind has no causal effect on the brain/body?

@simonhibbs887

5 күн бұрын

Not necessarily, it would mean consciousness is a side effect like the whistling of steam escaping from a steam engine. It’s an inevitable consequence but doesn’t affect the operation of the underlying system.

@RogerioLupoArteCientifica

5 күн бұрын

@@simonhibbs887the steam may not affect the engine, but it certainly affects something else. Nothing in this universe can even exist without affecting something else. So I agree with the OP and that has been my question too. If one thinks that a thought has no effect on anything except when it turns into action, then one necessarily assumes that mind and thoughts are something that doesn’t belong to the realm of matter. So if one assumes mind is not anything other than a material phenomenon, one should assume also that it somehow affects the material world, even though perhaps on a subtle and imperceptible (or undetectable) level only.

@simonhibbs887

5 күн бұрын

@@RogerioLupoArteCientifica Oh I agree, I’m not an phenomenalist. I think that in causation all effects are also themselves causes. On reflection you might be right, epiphenomenalism is skirting on dualism at least. Cheers.

1 permittivity of human white brain matter = (8 ohm c)^-1 is the electric linear capacitance density in my mind, and yours. The cost is the power expended by the human brain (≈ 20 W).

wot about ants. im wondering if their consciousness is spread across them all instead of in their bodies

I agree that consciousness is not the preview of philosophers. Philosophers follow the statement, "publish or parish." They make mountains from mole hills to validate their business model.

@thinkIndependent2024

5 күн бұрын

Truth!!! Detroit Production stopped when parts could not be procured. " The Sum of The Whole is Greater Than Its Equal Parts" Our existence is both in and outside ourselves.

@jeffryblair6816

5 күн бұрын

That’s an interesting philosophy there 😉

@user-zh1th8sz2l

5 күн бұрын

It's actually purview and not preview. But yeah, I would tend to agree with that. Publish or perish is some potent stuff in a ruthless capitalist economy, for all intellectual and academic disciplines and pursuits, not just philosophy. And while philosophers may have to ultimately give way to hard science such as it is, personal conscious experience is all anyone ever has to make sense of anything. One's own consciousness is all. And I'll be damned if anyone is ever going to tell me what to think....

@thinkIndependent2024

5 күн бұрын

​​@@jeffryblair6816A minor study of history will prove Philosophy was the original science. At my core I use science for everything philosophy is just a probing tool to expand scopes in today's world

@jeffryblair6816

4 күн бұрын

@@thinkIndependent2024 philosophy is just thinking hard about important questions.

The reason why there is a mind-body problem is because consciousness can't observe itself as an object any more than light could illuminate light. Thus, seeing the origin of consciousness is not something feasible for science to observe, therefore there will always be a mystery surrounding consciousness.

@MasterofOne-zl6ur

5 күн бұрын

For some yes not so for others. Some rely on ignorance while others do not.

@williamburts3114

5 күн бұрын

@@MasterofOne-zl6ur If those "others" are relying on their senses to observe such phenomena then they are wasting their time since it is consciousness that is illuminating their senses. Your senses only give information on objective objects, but they haven't the means to know your subjective existence.

When I’m hungry it feels like my mind is in my tummy, when I’m thinking it feels like it’s in my brain, when I’m playing squash it feels like it’s in my arms and legs.

What is the Mind body problem? The Mind, this duality "Consciousness" is a device created to build a dream creation. I, The Fractal Fragmented Primal Light that is given the destiny to create this world exist as the balance to the world, know as "Aten Ra - Brahman". The I has self replicate a self copy to be this world. The I that is the world is known as "RA" or "Brahma". Ra is wearing a duality Consciousness her Mind. This duality Mind, the Consciousness is in a sleeping dreaming state. As a result of this sleeping dreaming state, the Light of the consciousness is being obscured. The obscuring of the Light in the Consciousness, the Mind of the I Playing Ra, creates an insatiable yearning for Light. Therefore, the mind becomes very corrupted and impure. Ra is using the Device, her Mind - The Consciousness to create this world. All the I and I that has entered inside of "RA's" Imagination Creation, must also wear a copy of her mind to be immersed inside of the dream experience. What is the Mind body problem? The I and I is also wearing this mind device. The mind has obscure the I, and has taken command. The I has now identify with the I creation. The I and I suffer from false self identification and is too busy identifying as this sleeping dreaming mind and all its creations. "I Am Not The Mind" - "I Am Not This Body". Who Am I? How Am I Animating This Body? How Do I Remove This Mind Device So I Can Finally Know Myself and End All Confusion? This Mind, The Consciousness Is the greatest deception and Confusion? Seek your Answers From the I Real Self Called A "SOUL". Is This World a Dream? Am I Inside Of The Mind Of Another? Light Must be restored back onto this Consciousness, the Mind of Ra. The Light and the Consciousness is indivisible. The Light and the Self is indivisible. Hail Hail To All I and I. I Bow to I and I in Self, Light And Truth. All Is Myself. I Am All.

Guys are completely wrong are said there are manu body. It means he mind body problems ir is wortheless philosophy when he keep out philosophy proceendings about this case. He is cover up his rubbish philosophy with smart sentences of philosophy. Ridiculous. Iol

@MasterofOne-zl6ur

5 күн бұрын

The brain creates awareness or what we see is conscious understanding of environment for survival purposes, if you takeaway this attribute or ability then the chances for survival in a complex structure are diminished or impossible especially over vast time spans. Its actually the evolution of survival itself in bio logical life which creates it from material substance or brains.

@steve_____K307

5 күн бұрын

@@MasterofOne-zl6ur Hi MaterofOne, are you sure you've got it all figured out? If we follow your logic then the Space Station that is orbiting the earth (for example) is somehow part of that [mindless] process you refer to that strives for survival "over vast time spans". Many are pretty sure there is good reason to suspect there is far more going on than just clumps of atoms doing what atoms naturally do.

When we come to understand vibration, how it vibrates at different rates, there will no longer be a mind body problem. Consciousness is fundamental, mind emerges with quantum events. The body is also elemental composed of five macro elements and many micro elements at the quantum level. Ultimately all is consciousness, which is ‘the hard problem’ for today’s philosophers. What is fundamental just is, it does not vibrate. What emerges with quantum events is material and does vibrate. Both the mind and elements vibrate, and consequently are subject to change.

These guys always talk as if consciousness is somehow separate from the self. Without an entity, a someone to be aware and experience, what would be the point of any other phenomenon? Even a single living cell has a level of awareness and can know things because consciousness is a function of life. Consciousness isn't the mystery, life is what we don't understand, so of course he is making no progress.

@steve_____K307

5 күн бұрын

Hi caricue, "No", they very specifically are not suggesting that "consciousness is somehow separate from the self". The mystery of consciousness (and hence "self") are the topic at hand.

@MasterofOne-zl6ur

5 күн бұрын

Correct its actually a function of not only bio life as you suggest but its actually a function of survival itself. As you suggest living cells, blood, bones, tendons, eyes, feet, arms, legs and brains are all material objects which behave in a survival sense or have this drive or disposition to begin with. You cant measure or find awareness because its behavioural or it is an expression of the will to exist or survive or being in time but survival itself can only be processed or it is a partake or takeaway process one must behave or be within the process to act it out. This is why it is in idle state when asleep but it is still present because survival itself is not being pursued but it still is obviously relevant in a sense. It is not soul nor spirit which keeps us going it is survival itself which makes one conscious or aware of being in time or life as we know it as you suggest which is the real question. However the answer to the life question resides in the ability to survive as this is the first protocol of life and it cannot be measured or surpassed in language. Its not only a function of bio life but it actually is needed for survival or existence itself by simple minus, takeaway or subtraction methods with reference to existence or survival itself. You cannot survive without a brain and you as a bio life form can not survive or exist without being aware or conscious so it is a mode of not life but a higher form of existence which is survival. Each piece or bit of human life and bio life is an extension or structure of life but more importantly has a survival character or attitude attached to it, combining with the whole object or material substance. I understand this without being aware or conscious i will not survive so my behaviour determines how i survive and with a brain from which consciousness stems this attribute can make it so.

@MasterofOne-zl6ur

5 күн бұрын

What some really want is for you to remain ignorant about souls, spirits ,survival and consciousness. But once you see it you can see straight through them. Lazer styles.

@caricue

5 күн бұрын

@@steve_____K307 I think you are making the same error. If you understand that only living things have experiences and awareness, then consciousness is just a property of life. It isn't separate since it is just a catch all for various mental processes and perceptions. The only reason people see consciousness as a mystery is because they proclaimed life to be "just chemistry" and everyone knows that chemistry can't have experiences or anything mental. This false idea just pushes the mystery up one level from life to consciousness.

@steve_____K307

5 күн бұрын

@@caricue Hi Caricue, to summarize then it comes down to your claim "consciousness is just a property of life". That's it? No reason for the vast amount of discussion and mystery surrounding the topic? I am pretty sure that most won't find your summary satisfactory. Surely there must be more.

When Robert is brilliant and philosophers like Alva Noe try to catch up.

@dhammaboy1203

17 сағат бұрын

Robert is brilliant but I have no idea where you get the idea Noe is trying to catch up? Noe is brilliant also and Robert was intentionally challenging Noe for a great conversation.

Mind and consciousness depends on the body. The problem is that the body ages and wears out while the mind often wants to keep on going. 😢

@MasterofOne-zl6ur

5 күн бұрын

Correct it is survival trying to survive or trying to continue, that's how you know.😉

@MasterofOne-zl6ur

5 күн бұрын

Not spirit not soul but actual real life survival in motion. All biological life have an automatic inherent composition to survive and its why most individuals choose not to blow themselves up while being aware or conscious, pure survival in a biological structure with millions of years of experience and information inputs from environment. Amazing.

@longcastle4863

4 күн бұрын

The mind wears out too

An unsatisfactory interview. There are no conclusions to be drawn from “We don’t know”. I can never understand how a philisopher can forget Descartes’s Cogito. The only thing we absolutely do know is that the mind/self exists.

@dhammaboy1203

17 сағат бұрын

Not sure I'd hold that as a certainty. Both Neuroscientists and the Buddhist argue that the self does not ultimately exist. There is no self in neural activity - so where would this self reside within the structure of the physical brain? In regard to the mind - what do you mean by mind exactly? What's your definition of mind? What is included and not included? There isn't any consensus in contemporary philosophy of mind what mind is exactly - so how can we have any certainty regarding a phenomenon that no one seems to be able to adequately define?

Remember " there is no one answer to a mutually problem " J. Peterson. There's is no answer. It's not the right question.

I think he’s right, this is an incredibly complex question and we’re going to need a broad range of approaches to make progress on it, including philosophers, physicists, chemists, biologists, neuroscientists, sociologists, information scientists, and so on. It’s probably the most complex area of study we are engaged in, so it’s not surprising progress is slow. Also, whatever our expectations might be, it’s also important we keep open minds on these issues, and I think philosophers have an important role in making sure that scientific efforts are examined and interpreted critically.

@codymarch164

5 күн бұрын

That's cute. Placing the Philosopher's as foreman, so making them feel special, important and heard. ...but, philosophia is a life-style and science a tool. It's not really about the question regarding the relationship between a lifestyle and tool - because there no contention - but the quarrel between the Wise and the ignorant; or theurgists vs materialists. So it may seem that each party here has a different agenda in how they apply science and what they're looking to exploit and for what reason. Like science, guns too, are tools. But we don't discriminate guns specifically but rather the utilization of this tool dependent on if they're in the hands of a policeman or criminal. Concerning the circumstances, guns may be a tool or a weapon. Too, science could be a tool or a weapon. The only man truly worthy in science is he wwho has a lifestyle akin to philosophia. Therefore he seeks right view, right thought, right conduction, right action, etc. The man who sees not the Divine, nor longs towards the spirit, is most blind, deaf and dumb to the more higher, subtle and universal truths and principles. There's a lot of boxers in this world....but we all really only watch the champions. We have too little of time to consider fools. Anyone can do science and make it out to be whatever. Just like religion. You can make things to be a tool or a weapon. Science however, what does it become when rendered only as a tool for serving man's lower nature and senses and not as a liberation ontology in uniting back with the divine.... ? All of this stuff of phenomena are posterior and proceeds from the original causes.... collecting all such information is futile. . There's a quote: if it didn't exist 500 years ago you don't need it. The eugenicists want to liberate the body and while doing so, entrapes the soul in further conditions of incurrences. Undoing the fetters and snares, ultimately losing the body do we liberate, in severing the ties and bounds that hold us. Allegedly, the mind is quite powerful. Buddha, spent his entire life to solve this. Some of these men of science today aren't actually about science but have, unwittingly or not, a dark agenda. The true man is only of philosophia.

There is no mind.

The problem with epiphenomenalism is that it can't explain why we are rational to infer that other people have minds. If epiphenomenalism is true other people's minds don't cause anything. If something doesn't cause anything it doesn't feature in our best explanation of human behavior. So epiphenomenalists have no reason to think other people have minds. You can rationally infer that other people have minds in virtue of mind needed to explain their behavior, i.e., mind plays a causal role.

@simonhibbs887

5 күн бұрын

That’s an interesting argument, I’ve not seen it before. I think the issue there is that if conscious awareness is epiphenomenal then all of the decision making and motivational factors are still there and still affect our behaviours but are unconscious in origin. The fact that we become consciously ware of them is a side effect. What we are inferring about other people’s behaviour is the causes of their action and experience, not the experience itself. Having said that I’m not myself an epiphenomenalist, I think conscious experiences is causal, but it’s not an easy question to answer.

@anteodedi8937

5 күн бұрын

​@@simonhibbs887The problem is that the epiphenomenalist has no grounds to say there is such a thing as conscious awareness when it comes to other people. If it is epiphenomenal, then it is not needed to explain their behavior. You cannot rationally infer there is such thing when it comes to other people. I recall Michael Huemer making this argument. I think he puts it as a reductio ad absurdum. If it leads us to the conclusion that other people don't have minds, then something is wrong about that thesis. And yeah, I agree this is a difficult topic.

What science can be applied to spiritual matters? Those questions can be answer by what necessarily must be the case if they can be answered at all. For example, to pose that there is no afterlife because consciousness exists only in the brain - that is a theory that is inherently unobservable, even in theory. For if you don't exist, then you certainly cannot observe that you don't exist because then you don't exist. The only observable theory about the afterlife is that there is something that you can observe. In other words, there is a soul that lives on apart from the body; this is unavoidable. And what is it that can be observed? Obviously, the only things you could observe in the afterlife is that you were either right or you were wrong to believe in it in life. If you believed in the afterlife, and you see it, then you will observe thing consistent with being vindicated and justified in your belief, a heaven. If you acted in life like this life is all there is, and you discover that you were wrong, then you will observe things consistent with being convicted of error and humiliation, a hell. Either way, there is a judgement to come after you die.

@MasterofOne-zl6ur

5 күн бұрын

The error you make or religious individuals make is that you only postulate heaven or after life with reference to human souls or spirits and you do not offer the courtesy to other biological life forms like dinosouls or biosouls which is an automatic redflag or giveaway.. It only speaks of 'Man' not all creatures that have existed past, present and future but mainly historically. You would have to attach a spirit or soul to all biological life then you have to use 'Behaviour' as a protocol for availability of after life or heaven in regard to the ability to survive in environment or measure this issue or behaviour and survival in all historical life especially historically but also all bio life now. In actual fact humans are a late edition to the after life if you are considering dinosouls, biosouls that have existed and perished in history or not survived. You would have to postulate spirit or soul in all biological life and then establish behaviour patterns in terms of heaven because behaviour is important for availability of heaven or after life which you must offer all bio life or bio conscious 'survivalists'. This is so God remains non bias in application and consideration to all life so souls or spirit must be present in dinosouls or biosouls for we are made or have evolved from them not the other way around. It has so many issues with it its hard to know where to start so I start with evolution of species to survive in habitat and leave souls or spirits with the ignorant or lack of knowledge in a historical context . Survival is this world not another, the brain or consciousness is at a mode or expression of survival this world, when you have no conscious or remove the brain you will not exist just like all the dinosouls and biosouls that have existed since life originated on this rock. Asteroids are more dangerous to dinosouls and also have no soul or spirit they collide with the earth or other planetary systems and are soulless in tis respect. When you offer the after life on behalf of a spirit or soul you degrade survival now and this has been shown or proved to be so with sacrifices of survival now for an after life which doesn't exist or know one can describe. Its rubbish and dangerous also unknowable. Man only postulates an after life for hierarchy postulations which are false or to seem knowledgeable. It will be what it will be without humans thinking they know. Thats being kind.☺

@tosafmjcom

5 күн бұрын

@@MasterofOne-zl6ur I don't think that mere animals have the ability to choose how to behave on the basis of abstract beliefs about the meaning of life in general. They neither believe nor disbelieve in a judgement in the afterlife. So they cannot experience ultimate vindication or condemnation when they get their. Humans, however, do justify their deeds based on their belief in the afterlife or not. Sinners live for all the fleeting pleasures they can get while they can and don't care who they hurt in the process because this life is all there is. So they get their pleasures while they can before they die and go without as they suffer in what they believe will be hell. Saints believe there is more to existence than just this life. So they seek the truth with religious fervor and encourage others to do the same.

@MasterofOne-zl6ur

5 күн бұрын

@@tosafmjcom Biological life acts on a survival of self and of species due to evolution as its main objective with all extensions or elaborate constructs of self reflecting survival itself in a new form or structure to and for the ability to survive in environment with new structure aiding this cause or new shapes. That is survival this world not in a spiritual sense or soul sense but as a survival capacity now. You still haven't answered about the after life in reference to other biologiccal life forms or historicl dinosouls or all life leading up to the present day and the postulation of those creatures in regard to behaviour, survival and the ability to be good and availability for the after life based on the behaviour of those survivalists. You will have to postulate since we arose from earlier life forms that all these bio life forms have bio souls or dinosouls and articulate if these bio souls are also in heaven not just man as we are later additions. This means that those dinosouls and biosouls would be in heaven before humans existed since all biological life have spirits or souls or can survie in environment based on there behaviour to survive. And if they don't have souls or spirits and are merely conscious agents of survival when in history did souls all souls become available for the after life not just humans.

@MasterofOne-zl6ur

5 күн бұрын

@@tosafmjcom Its a natural false postulation based on years of brain washing to use in language souls or spirits as a replacement for the true definition of bio life which is a structure or bio life form which is conscious or aware of environment built for survival this world. And if not this world you still have to produce the goods with reference to behaviour of historical life forms in regard to availability of after life. I wouldn't try it though its a lost cause.😇 Meaning that early biological life have souls or spirits including Jelly Fish or Lizards and that these souls and spirits will be in heaven waiting for you with God. This seems a bit wrong wouldn't you say? 🤥 Im sorry to tell you this but you have been lied to and brain washed by others. All biological life has a survival protocol or frequency attached within DNA or RNA or the earliest constructs of life on earth and it builds models of itself with slight changes or increases in extensions for survival of self starting from humble beginnings up until full awareness or conscious survival.. The era is in definition of souls, spirits against the real functionality or true postulate of survival of consciousness in a human or bio life form. Now you understand. Sorry you were brain washed there. Now your not.😀 I will say one thing like this, you cannot survive without being aware or conscious. I actually believe all bio life is eligible in heaven or after life's and are waiting for us with the other bio souls past, present and future based on all the behaviour or need to survive of early life. Even the herbivores are waiting for you the spirit of the dinosouls.😃 Don't be fooled with my humor. This is true enlightenment. Your most welcome.

@tosafmjcom

5 күн бұрын

@@MasterofOne-zl6ur I don't think it is fair to ask me to account for the afterlife of other species who don't have the capacity to consider the meaning of their own behavior. They don't have the tools to evaluate those concerns; they don't know how to talk or write things down. They don't try to talk to us who kill them for food. They don't develop art or culture or rituals to attempt to communicate grander causes. If they had, we would have seen it by now.

Mind-Body Problem always happen in a male's mind of how to obtain female's body.