I just wanted to make a video for visibility for you guys, currently you are genuinely punished just for playing a dwarf campaign normally. This is not good gameplay - I've played dwarfs since WH1 and absolutely love them to bits and want them to be as good as they can be! So creating this so you guys know what to do and not to do - you're welcome to play however you want but you need to be armed with info first! - video for dwarf rework for further context: kzread.info/dash/bejne/mpiOlZKRkrqckaQ.html&t

@victorcaldera249

Ай бұрын

how do you think the community should respond to this situation

@dogruler543

Ай бұрын

i feel like it would be better for them to do something like, make the age of reckoning a waaagh style button, where it decays over a period of turns (speeding up if people are getting added to the book) and you can click it to start the 10 turn age of reckoning , you settle grudges and fill the dial, get the buffs at the end of the time, and then it starts draining again, make it have a timer so it cant be spammed, but it can be clicked immediately if it ever decays to the lowest threshold. the new system seem like it will be frustrating to manage and lead to more "50 turns and close campaign" loops

@arzpendragon

Ай бұрын

You sir have missed the point of what is playing a campaign "Normally" for a Dwarf! Grudges should pile up and feel like a neverending book of checks and balances. The Dwarfs should be pushed to always delay, take their time in building up, because that's who they are. A new technology only ceases to be considered a prototype after at least a few hundred years of tinkering with it. At the same time, you should feel the pressure of your very resentful people always calling for an age of Reckoning for all the wrongs they consider to have been done to them. This system feels very Dwarfy. To hell if you don't like the negatives. That's what being a dwarf is about!

@hagenstanger788

Ай бұрын

@@arzpendragon the problem is that using strategies that are as efficent as he can make it he still cant even get the medium stage. meaning you will spend 3/4 of your time on the lowest stage as a normal player at least. most people that will try out dwarfs will call this the next self sabotaging mechanic like the huntsmasters because its pretty much impossible to get the best results unless you hyper focus playing the system instead of trying to play a normal campaign. and im sorry but 1 mechanic should not dominate every aspect of your playstyle to get right. also who else sees the no age of reckoning mod drop day 1?

@ethanwilliams1880

Ай бұрын

I saw another commenter here make a REALLY good point: You can just ignore the system if needed, the penalties are not very severe at all. Yeah, it probably needs a bit of reworking, but -3 control and -10 growth aren't gonna break you back. On top of that, it seems like you are SUPPOSED to delay the age of reckoning, not jump into another one immediately, as the tooltip says the grudges needed increase by a mere 20% over 10 turns for delaying. I definitely think you are right about the near vs far factions, and some of the weird scaling, though.

Sounds like a classic decimal error in a text file 😂

@josephg24

Ай бұрын

That's probably exactly what it is

@Hachimaro

Ай бұрын

Come on, mate, it's CA, not QA!

@Nerazmus

Ай бұрын

Sound like an idiot running around to explore factions instead of playing the game.

@argetlam05

Ай бұрын

Makes me wonder what else is as busted as this that we haven’t seen yet

@bavettesAstartes

Ай бұрын

Anyone remember the 5000% healing cap for zombies? Yeah give them a few weeks. They are gonna settle that.

I liked playing the dawi slow and chill. I was already worried the age of reckoning would just add stress to a campaign and debuff me all the time. I hadn't imagined it would be this bad though. I hope they fix the dwarves cause I love them.

@lordadorable1140

Ай бұрын

Welcome to modern total war. If you don’t learn Blitzkrieg, you aren’t playing the game

@HiddenEvilStudios

Ай бұрын

@@lordadorable1140 ...Which is a shame, 'cause I really enjoy empire-building.

@lordadorable1140

Ай бұрын

@@HiddenEvilStudios You can still go slow. Once you sort out the neighbours, you can consolidate and move on to the next.

@CulinVlau

Ай бұрын

It seems to me that if you play slow and chill you won't have a problem. And I don't think you have to trigger the Age of Reckoning thing every time you're given the option.

@lordadorable1140

Ай бұрын

@@CulinVlau Thank you for getting to the point I was trying to make but didn’t have the words to explain it

The fact that smashing the Empire rewards you more Grudges than Dark Elves is pants of head silly...

@kuyakoiaguilar7767

22 күн бұрын

its because He declared war on the Empire and he has no war with the Dark Elves yet.

The solution is actually quite simple... just let it scale with your last age. Got 100%? Well, now the next age requires double the grudges. Got less than 20%? Now you only need half the grudges. The current system is just not balanced around itself. The fact that you can do a world conquest and end up failing all ages, because there is nobody left, feels quite stupid. It would be perfect, if your grudge requirement depends on a fraction of the total off all grudges in the game, but maybe that would require too much calculations.

@arzpendragon

Ай бұрын

It's because DWArFS are stupid! Of course you'll never settle all their grudges! You're not meant to! Dwarfs have impossible standards that keeps holding them back, ideologically and technologically. So this feel pretty lore accurate to me.

@indrickboreale7381

Ай бұрын

This would feel like irl politics and I love it - you do good things, people expect more. You do even more good things, expectations become too high and everything goes into hate spiral

@azzy8121

Ай бұрын

@@arzpendragonDon’t you dare call us stupid umgi, that’s goin in the book!

@Grothgerek

Ай бұрын

@@arzpendragon First of, this goes in the Book! Second, while I agree, there should be a certain limit. Dwarfs may be stubborn, but they are not crazy. Genociding all Humans or Elves would definitely clear out all Grudges (the same can't be said about Skaven, but you get what I mean).

@arzpendragon

Ай бұрын

@@azzy8121 don't you dare call me umgi, short-beard ! THAT'S going in the book! *Squeak* pay no attention to the big trenchcoat.

I was under the impression that the Age of Reckoning system was something you opted into, kind of like the Greenskin’s Wagh system. If I’m forced to participate in this literally every 10 turns or be punished then thats going to be a huge bummer.

@joshuacollins9346

Ай бұрын

You can delay it at least once, but you start the game with it active. So no, it’s not optional like the waah system.

@IordArthas

Ай бұрын

I kind of want to disable this system either a mod. I don’t like being on a timer constantly like this.

@brentonherbert7775

Ай бұрын

@@IordArthas OH NO! IM GOING TO LOSE LIKE 3 CONTROL IF I DONT DO THIS VERY EASY THING! Anyway...

@zerg0s

Ай бұрын

@brentonherbert7775 the real cost is not getting the grudge units, not getting the grudge army, not getting the extra growth and the upkeep reduction. It’s a cool new mechanic with fun rewards, but it forces people to play Dawn like Urruks, which is bizarre.

@brentonherbert7775

Ай бұрын

@@zerg0s Oh- So you're whining that you DONT get the units when you DONT put in the work? Sorry i didnt realise you were this dumb.

Grudges required should maybe scale with the amount of armies you have. Since that's the tool you use to settle them. Makes more sense gameplay wise.

@Insideoutcest

Ай бұрын

that kinda breaks on certain configurations in the campaign. if the AI has 3 stacks, well, I cant well have less can I? normally. now I'm screwed again jakben. Jakben, I'm now screwed because I turned the difficulty up? What if I just disband all my units and try to confederate? Grudge eliminated boys, you're fired!

@madlarkin8

Ай бұрын

Wow Jakben, he made you look like a fool.

@tunencio7288

Ай бұрын

confederating LL just recruiting a bunch of lords in the first turn? I don´t think so

@Grz349

Ай бұрын

Probably be better to do it based on number of settlements for the reasons others have stated.

@emrysmyridden

28 күн бұрын

i think that they should tweak it so that all the dwarves progress counts toward the age of reconing, and the option to confederate a legendary lord should be tied to completing that factions legendary grudge. I love the idea of quest battles to confederate as well. maybe both together.

I've been skeptical of this system since I first saw it. Even to just get to tromm level, half-way, you have to fight 10-11 battles worth 1000 grudges apiece, in 10 turns, by turn 31. The scaling just seems off, especially when a Legendary Grudge in the book is worth a measly 500 grudges. Also, there is no overflow, so if you do max out your grudges before the 10 turn limit, any grudges gained after that are wasted in respect to the next Age.

@xarlo12

Ай бұрын

you know you can delay Age of Reconing or deal with the basic negetive effect of it because they don't matter that much

@Shizandgiggles37

Ай бұрын

@@xarlo12yea I feel like people are looking over this. It's like 20% more for another 10 turns which is fine. Plus the devs have said multiple times that you're not gonna hit the cap every time. They reworked so much of the dwarves that even if you DONT get 50%, you're still better off than pre 5.0

@Lukashoffmann94

Ай бұрын

@@Shizandgiggles37 The problem isn’t the overall balance of it, but the feel. It will never sit right with players, if you get a message every 10 turns to remind you of boni you could have, if you just played more aggressively.

@arzpendragon

Ай бұрын

​@@Lukashoffmann94dude... That's what being a dwarf is about! Lots of grumbling dawis pestering about the fact that you still haven't avenge their grandmother's pie being eaten by a squigg ! And the more you settle the big grudges, the more they'll latch on the little ones! I mean...so far, this sounds a lot like Dwarf to a T

@coaiemandushman1079

Ай бұрын

Legendary Grudges should be a separate resource which allows you to finish an Age of Reckoning at the maximum level and that should allow you to confederate a faction for just 1 Legendary Grudge.

I almost exclusively play multiplayer campaigns with friends, and this is going to bury me. I’m going to know so many factions by turn 2 that I’ll just be suffering penalties the entire time.

@arzpendragon

Ай бұрын

Start free for all instead of in teams? Pick smarter starting positions? Dwarfs don't rush, they build up. But at the same time, psychologically they aren't building. They are Re-building and Re-conquering stuff they consider was theirs. Their ideology both push them towards slow development and isolationism, yet this slow ass method also fuel their grudges because they never forget anything, and they all pile up quicker than you can settle them. Finally....we're finally going to know what it feels to play the Dawi!

@daniilivanov9525

Ай бұрын

@@arzpendragon it doesn't excuese jack shit of a balance and math they did with grudges, it's just dumb and not as they intended 100%

@arzpendragon

Ай бұрын

@@daniilivanov9525 sources : trust me bro. CA said multiple times you shouldn't expect to get this at a hundred per cent. It's meant to feel like an unattainable goal.

@LadyNeravin

Ай бұрын

@@arzpendragon But it forces you to expand to not get penelties , thats so wrong for dawi

@arzpendragon

Ай бұрын

@@LadyNeravin again, you are missing the points : penalties are the standard for the dying dwarf kingdoms. Now, if you wanna be the ones who turns all of that on it's head, go ahead and play the campaign. You don't have to be aggressive. You can play slow, take the tiny little penalities and feel exactly like the throngs feel

I'm surprised the system isn't based on how well your previous age of reckoning was. Get 100% and then it spikes up. But for it to increase exponentially for a race which is designed to have a slow build up seems crazy.

@AndreaFasani

Ай бұрын

Well the real problem for the dwarves are the long beard criticising everything you do as "not enough because back in my days..." apparently

I'm a little hesitant about the whole system. I belive players HATE being forced into a playstyle and new grudge system changes dwarfs into hyperagressive faction. And the numbers shown aren't the problem, (its all numerical which seems easily fixable) the problem is the ticking timer that punishes turtling. What I think is a neat fix is if the Legendary grudges pushed up the "starting point" of the grudge meter so after finishing 2-3 grudges you always start in the bonus section of the meter and no longer can be punished.

@Zebo12345678

Ай бұрын

That's a creative solution! Starting Grudge Meter +15% per legendary grudge. After a few, you'd be getting bonuses, and by the 7th legendary grudge you'd have a permanently maxed out age of reckoning. Or do +10% per legendary grudge, so that it requires you to finish all 10 legendary grudges to max out the age of reckoning.

@alertedcoyote7892

Ай бұрын

Honestly... That's an amazing idea. And like, those legendary grudges aren't cakewalks either, they're big, long expeditions to places that you normally wouldn't go. I do like the idea of needing all 10 to max it out tho, make it a really meaty reward for taking down every legendary grudge

@dogruler543

Ай бұрын

while this seems good, it would be rather broken unless the grudge armies were toned down, or just not a part of the reckoning cycle all together and like could be purchased with book points (like the lizardmen blessed spawn army)

@warthoggoulags1679

Ай бұрын

I thinkit would be cool to have peacefull/economic age and reckoning age where you need to fight, it would fit the dwarfs and allow for a slower playstlye alternating between chill and economic growth and agressive expension

@Wafelkowiec

Ай бұрын

@@dogruler543 I think that after finishing ~3 Legendary Grudges you are in the endgame anyway. I don't remember every one, but If they are on average the size of the one that's basically "Conquer The Donout" you deserve some rewards. And you still need to be agressive to fill the rest of the bar.

Thinking on how to fix this, my ideas would be 1) For confederation - Only confederation using the book of grudges should increase the grudge cost 2) For Age of Reckoning - have grudge requirement be based on settlements owned (to balance the incentives of wanting to play tall vs playing wide), with a multiplier based on previous age of reckoning achievement (so it's difficult to always get it maxed out, or conversely, always fail the age of reckoning)

@wesmantooth32

Ай бұрын

Playing tall isn't a thing. There is quickly playing wide, and slowly playing wide.

@Eclipsed_Embers

Ай бұрын

@@wesmantooth32 Warriors of Chaos and Wood Elves each seem to end up playing tall, their outposts are just pathetic. better to let a vassal take them, actually holding onto them is more trouble than its worth.

this whole gameplay mechanic seems unbelievably stressful. goodbye to chill dwarf campaigns

@Insideoutcest

Ай бұрын

why do you NEED to confederate? most of the time its offered to me the AI is surrounded and about to be crushed

@kubka4

Ай бұрын

Why? Are you that scared of -10 growth and -3 control? 😅 It's so minimal negative that you can just ignore the whole mechanic if you want.

@ethanwilliams1880

Ай бұрын

@@kubka4 Yeah, you've got a point. -3 control for Dawi is fkin NOTHING. The -10 grow hurts a bit more with the Dawi, but if none of it stacks, then it really isn't a problem.

@daniilivanov9525

Ай бұрын

@@kubka4 unless you play on higher difficulties

@kubka4

Ай бұрын

@@daniilivanov9525 Literally just with legendary it will be slight problem and even then it's not that bad.

I like the idea, but I agree that the implementation needs changing. The same thing with the increased cost also happens with Belegar and Karak Hirn. On top of that: Are you even able to "solve" the grudge mechanic? Is there a state where you've righted every wrong and can enjoy the maxed-out meter indefinitely, or does it just keep generating an ever-higher threshold that you're never able to satisfy for good because no one really play-tested this feature? 'Cause by the very definition, I think there should be an achieveable end goal to that mechanic. Maybe have those legendary grudges raise the bottom of the grudge meter, so you can never fall into those sections again unless you lose the stated objectives, like losing control of the Silver Pinnacle and the landmark there for instance.

@kirklandchappers

Ай бұрын

I think the floor mechanic is a really clever idea actually!

@nanonano2595

Ай бұрын

CA devs seem allergic to playtesting their own stuff. Or, more likely they only ever playtest a small portion of it and call it done. If you look back to all the most complained about issues with warhammer going back to WH1, so much of it stems from weird design decisions that absolutely nobody who actually plays the game wants and will tell you its bad after playing through it even once.

@HiddenEvilStudios

Ай бұрын

@@nanonano2595 I'm still mad that elven colonies have been missing for the Asrai and Druchii since the implementation of Immortal Empires.

@arzpendragon

Ай бұрын

There cannot be a resolved state for Grudges! There must always be grudges ! Dwarf aren't grudgy because of grudges ! There are grudges BECAUSE dwarfs are grudgy !

@andreyshpigelman5478

Ай бұрын

​@@HiddenEvilStudioswhy? DE and WE have been separated from high elves for millennia by now.

it will be a damn shame if the campaign is ruined becuz of this oversight. might have to wait for mods

@Shizandgiggles37

Ай бұрын

I'm sure SFO will fix it

@Dreadlowq

Ай бұрын

COMPLAIN TO THE DEVS ABOUT THIS STOP WAITING FOR MODS TO FIX EVERYTHING. YOU ARE JUST PERPETUALLY PROMOTING DEVS NOT DOING THEIR OBLIGATIONS.

@Shizandgiggles37

Ай бұрын

@@Dreadlowqthey'll see your comment in all caps and make the fixes after seeing how upset you are

@mlgman138

Ай бұрын

I thought there was an option to just skip it over 10 turns and can keep doing that?

@Croltown

Ай бұрын

@@Dreadlowq i dont have time to wait for this small indie company know as of CA to do their jobb.

It sounds like like they wanted to scale the grudges need by the amount of visible grudges, but it only makes sense to scale DOWN in case you have few grudges available, and never scale UP beyond some initial reasonable limit.

**Laughs in chaos Dawi** I suffer no such SHORTsighted weaknesses, that is nothing SHORT of a laughing stock!

@GeneralZimmer

Ай бұрын

SHORT?!

@axaviatorgames2250

Ай бұрын

Short?!

@DrogothWrath

Ай бұрын

Short!? No alliance!

Do you think that this would work better if you could declare an age of reckoning like a crusade? You declare an age of reckoning with the goal of settling the grudges of a particular faction, like Clan Moors has a total grudge score of 25,000 that you need to get to fully complete the AoR. And based on the grudge "score" you get a specific set of rewards, like a score higher than 10,000 gives you 500 oath gold, some growth, and a couple of grudge settler units.

@jasonstormsong4940

Ай бұрын

Or make it scale proportional from the start. Let’s say Kislev have accrued 10,000 points of grudges when the Age of Reckoning is triggered. The max will be say half that (so 5,000) so you don’t have to commit wholly to the destruction of an order faction. Then every 1,000 points is now a threshold. That said, I’d rather have the human order factions be weighted to generate less grudges especially Empire.

I just want to play dwarfs defensively, they should be able to turtle up in their holds

@Nerazmus

Ай бұрын

Good news. That is exactly what this system encourages.

@jaspermooren5883

Ай бұрын

@@Nerazmus Not really though. You need to take several settlements every 10 turns. You're being punished for discovering the world, not conquering which is not the same thing. Even if you get visibility due to allies the gudges still go up, even if you don't expend. And playing defensively in this game basically requires you to have defensive alliances, otherwise you just die.

@darthzelius1906

Ай бұрын

@@jaspermooren5883 my thoughts exactly

@Nerazmus

Ай бұрын

@@jaspermooren5883 You don't need to take any settlements. You don't need to do anything for that matter. You can just choose to not trigger the age every single time. Yeah, you are sort of being punished for being hyperaggressive. Which is fine. Yeah, getting allies increases the meter. It also increases how many grudges you get because enemies of your ally generate more grudges than random factions. You are encouraged to be a dwarf and not give a shit about anything that isn't in your immediate neighbourhood.

@Boxfortress

Ай бұрын

​@@Nerazmusbut you can only delay it once per age?

It sounds like the recurring punishment here is for choosing to enter an age of reckoning early. Why not just delay the age of reckoning? This is likely intentional to punish a huge early power-spike. The fact you even have access to this ability makes you stronger than all other factions, so it's likely intentional to help other factions hit their later game equivalents.

It seems that in the early game the most wise is delaying TAoR until the dawi have their economy up and running and they start snowballing but that would mean -1 control and -10 growth for a very long time...somehow the dawi got a nerf in their own DLC

I agree that LL confederation should increase, but it should be based on the amount of settlement, armies, gold etc you have. It should work based on the diplomacy mechanic of power level, trustworthiness, economic power and amount if settlements.

@arzpendragon

Ай бұрын

Irrelevant. It is based on if you've kicked enough goblins in the nuts for having stolen my uncle's boots. Actually, the fact that you've taken time to boost your economy and build stuff proves to me you don't care about my uncle's boots, and therefore are not as good as a dwarf king as my ancestors were. See how dwarfs thinks, now?

@calebbarnhouse496

Ай бұрын

​@@arzpendragonclose, but dwarfs also value gold, so it's actually, "wtf why did you spend time not getting the gold required to pay for the grandfather's boots being shined after the goblin skull he crushed scratched the leather on 5:34 on Tuesday 0942 while he was brewing 400 barrels of Grobbi splatter beer (the splatter is that every barrels was used to crush one goblin to death)

The moment I saw how the mechanic worked I suspected it was gonna be trouble. They did a good thing with reworking the grudges but then tied it to this system - I think the biggest issue is it's time gated. I think you could make it work if you removed the 10 turn cycle somehow. Maybe you have to manually turn it on and sometimes it's more beneficial to turn it on at a specific level to reset the wheel again - Maybe you nee dimmidiete boost for a tough battle or smth.

@wojtek9675

Ай бұрын

Maybe just make it a permanent thing where you have to settle like 100,000 grudges or however many to get the full buff. You can still turtle but It greatly incentivizes you to go out and actually settle grudges while not completely abandoning the slow play style

I don't like the Age of Reckoning mechanic in general. So the fact it's broken on top of that is just another turn off. All it does it promote more hyper aggression and constantly offensive gameplay. Warhammer 3 is already inundated with that and it has gotten old a long time ago. I much prefer the Dwarfs being a defensive race, taking dwarf holds and making impenetrable fortresses. I don't need a mechanic that promotes just full unga bunga aggro mode. I would've much preferred a mechanic that was just a sort of "crusade" mechanic meant to focus on retaking particular major Dwarf holds, and then rewards you with substantial defensive buffs to solidify your control over the region.

@Eclipsed_Embers

Ай бұрын

it actually discourages you from being too aggressive since constant expansion and meeting new factions is what causes the requirements to shoot up. it's better to play tall, expand slowly, and delay the Ages of Reckoning (which would essentially grant you a 10 turn window where you have no real incentive to go out and attack anyone) and that will result in much more acheivable targets

@tym6217

Ай бұрын

@@Eclipsed_Embers I've already played with it since the dlc came out now. I dislike the mechanic just as much as I thought I would. I'll just wait for a mod to fix it. It's an even more hyper aggressive version of the Greenskin Waaaagh! With the Greenskins you can at least fill the Waaaagh! bar and then just not start the Waaaagh! Until you're ready to avoid penalities. The Dwarf mechanic is just a forced cycle that you can't stop, only postpone. I hate it. If you could trigger it at will the way the Green skins can I would be much more indifferent about it, but still wouldn't like it. At least then I could just ignore it like I do with the Greenskins 80% of the time.

Good find. Hopefully it's easy to fix, they can compute the number based on territory neighbouring the one you own. That would even add a layer of strategy in the way you expand.

Why does it has to be this way and not the opposite? I would expect the dwarves to be more keen to join your banners if you have settled more than them. Kinda like the Kislev race mechanic.

@Insideoutcest

Ай бұрын

kislev is a horrible faction and they themselves need a complete overhaul

@arzpendragon

Ай бұрын

Dwarfs can never be happy. You could be settling the biggest grudges, there will always be a dwarf to say you ain't shit till you haven't done as good as his greatgreatgreatgreatgreatgreat grandfather who got bit by a rat that one time, so you need to go raze skavenblight.

I kinda dislike the 10turn timer on this the most. I like the idea of grudges being spread around the world, armies/places gathering more grudges over time, but the spastic race to right them all looks weird and trippy. Maybe it could be more organic, with Age of Reckoning slowly increasing debuffs on your empire, unless you progress into next tiers of the Age, giving you more time to finish, and when you finally reach the end of given Age of Reckoning you get some buffs/etc. Free army also seems tacked on, as for early game it's insanely powerful, but later on having 1 extra free army isn't that much of a big deal, again, pushing you to be extremely aggresive early on. Previous grudge system had a fun balancing part to it - if grudges were unresolved you got more slayers to recruit. This system as it is just looks like a score-attack mode permanently on.

So, my issue here is I play Multiplayer on teams with friends: you see a LOT more factions that way. I’ll be forced to do free-for-all or basically never be able to do a single age of reckoning, and alliances also period give you more vision, so you won’t want any alliances to avoid vision of grudges that you won’t be able to manage

Surely they will change that though? They have to 🤷🏻‍♂️🤷🏻‍♂️

@DaemonPrince

Ай бұрын

they wont, CA notoriously doesnt change much after reveals besides a bugfix

This was really discussed in the forums, and dwarfs are going to get broken again so people will ask again for the dwarf rework of the rework of the rework

Hopefully they can release a hotfix. Seams like increasing the amount of grudges in the local area should help. Maybe there should be a multiplier for local grudges and a reduction to the amount needed to get to the center of the bar. Everything after center should be harder to get.

It's like CA didn't play a campaign with this system

@alistairbolden6340

Ай бұрын

Its extremely rare for devs to play their own games, its why there are so few good gaming companies. Companies like CA or Blizzard do not pay their dev's to play the game for 200-300 hours or more, and that is required to produce good games.

@Nerazmus

Ай бұрын

They deffinitely didn't try to play hyperahhresive dwarves to see if their system is stupidproof.

@alistairbolden6340

Ай бұрын

@@Nerazmus dude you don't have to aggressive at all for it to break, you simply have to play with some friends on multiplayer.

@Nerazmus

Ай бұрын

@@alistairbolden6340 Yeah. If you play multiplayer, and start on the same team and start at the other side of the map from each other, it might break.

@alistairbolden6340

Ай бұрын

@@Nerazmus You don't even need to be very far away, consider how many factions the Karl Franz knows at turns one. This badly needs to change its an extremely poorly implemented mechanic. And the more people you are playing with the worse it gets, its a mechanic that punches you for having friends.

I think one of the ways to fix age of reckoning grudges is: The grudge progress should be cumulative, not reseting before each new age. (The numbers are just for the sake of the example). For example, for the first age takes 3000 grudges, the second takes 7000 and the third is 14000. When you complete the first age, the amount of grudges you settled (3000 or more) would carry on onto the next age. So on the second age of reckoning the progress at the start would be 3000/7000. For the third age it would be 7000/14000 and etc…

I don't know why they keep adding mechanics that are 90% downside and only 10% upside

@PowerfulSkeleton

Ай бұрын

The debuffs aren't exactly crippling, big man.

@hatimzeineddine8723

Ай бұрын

@@PowerfulSkeleton neither was initial authority and that sucked too

@PowerfulSkeleton

Ай бұрын

@@hatimzeineddine8723 You know what, fair enough.

Just out of curiosity...how many does it need if you start one with the FOW off?

Any chance they have fixed this for release? or am i doing nurgle while i wait?

not sure how/if the grudges increases, but I would probably see if I could scale them on the perceived threat level that is found in the diplomacy screen. That would localize the grudges to be more near you, and perhaps could also allow to use the diplomacy traits as well. e.g. raiding, opportunistic, disloyal could increase the rate of grudges generated

My problem is the 10 turns, it should be like 25, the real issue is you need to bounty hunt for good value targets, bout if you only have 10 turns you might not make it to the target in that time.

@arzpendragon

Ай бұрын

Just delay.

They can easily fix this before launch CA!!!??? I can’t believe they are messing this up

Does it get larger after each successful %100? because right now in my campaign 1500 grudge reward is like 7% but I done %100 except for once which was %50 on turn 60ish so 4 %100 and 1 %50? maybe after each successful it goes up not just how many factions you know?

I was looking forward to playing Dwarfs again after a long time, but I didn't realise the knew mechanics had such a bad scaling problem... Ah well. At least Karl has some neat new options for me to play around with instead!

I knew there was no cap on this and the moment I saw the system I said there should be a cap. Hopefully if CA doesn't fix it, a kind modder fixes it by capping the age of reckoning max grudges

@arzpendragon

Ай бұрын

You can't put a cap on how grudgy dwarfs can get. You're thinking gameplay over identity.

@Alpharius2479

Ай бұрын

@@arzpendragonThere has to be a balance though. You shouldn’t sacrifice one for the other.

@arzpendragon

Ай бұрын

@@Alpharius2479 there is. The negatives are very low, and being even under 50% is very adventageous. Nothing in this feels insurmontable. If you're into confederating legendary lords, prioritize them instead of minor factions. Don't go around playing the dwarfs like the Empire and then complain you can't play dwarfs like the Empire.

@anon4854

Ай бұрын

@@arzpendragon So...just eat the negatives? Just play the campaign disadvantaged and dont complain about a poorly thought out system? What do you work for CA or something? lmao

@arzpendragon

Ай бұрын

@@anon4854 again : the negatives are almost inconsequential. And if you don't want them, play the system. You're all just complaining because you can't play the dwarfs like you play the Empire.

First they took the walls from Minor Settlements - as a Dawi player or a Lizard Player surrounded by Enemys they were crucial. Then they messed this system up. Yeah. Great. (Haven't played since the Wall removal)

I'm so glad you made this video. Been playing Malakai and felt like I was just doing it wrong or something 🤦‍♂

Thank you for this, as a dawi fan. I totally agree that this does not seem intended. I’ve had some concerns since this system was announced. This requires rebalancing, it’s currently punishing you for playing the game normally.

@Nerazmus

Ай бұрын

Ehm... if your normal dawi game is hyperaggresive rush... I think you might not be a real dawi fan.

@firepengu7410

Ай бұрын

@@Nerazmus erm… I never said my normal style is hyper aggressive. I did said that I liked to play defensive once I made the karaz ankor. I actually really like playing hyper defensively which is where my concern for this new mechanic comes from. I don’t want to feel super pressured to be a chaos like total war race

@Nerazmus

Ай бұрын

@@firepengu7410 Well, you sort of implied that. This video showed that being hyperaggressive doesn't work, and you said you were worried about not being able to play the way you like. Implying that this was the way. In any case, this system works fine for the traditional dawi play. You just steadily build up the meter and only trigger the Age when you get into trouble or big war.

@firepengu7410

Ай бұрын

@@Nerazmus I never implied that. I actually explicitly said that it’s punishing you for being hyper aggressive, not that it doesn’t work. It seems to work alright, as the penalties aren’t too severe. But I don’t want to be punished for confederating a minor faction or doing a quest battle. I want to still feel like I can complete my current age and not worry about the consequences of confederating karak azul or getting my LL’s item.

@Nerazmus

Ай бұрын

@@firepengu7410 Good news. You aren't punished for either.

One thing that would help a lot would be to be able to toggle the age of reckoning the same way we toggle wahhh with orcs. another, better option, would be to have the grudge price of the age of reckoning not move until you've completed it. meaning that if you want to go for the grudge azrmy every ten turn, you can but the price will go up every time but if you want to go slow for your 20 first turns and then go wild for the first time on turn 21/30 to get your first grudge army, the price will be the same as if you went for it at turn 1/10

This could be fixed by just not debuffing the player. It should just give different bonuses, depending on the amount of active grudges, verses grudges settled. Lots of active grudges gives the player 'grumbling' bonuses. Extra campaign movement speed, decreased recruitment cost, recruitment time and combat bonuses (more leadership, movement speed and melee attack), encouraging them to get out and settle some grudges. Having lots of settled grudges grants 'satisfied' bonuses. Factionwide growth, income, and those new grudge settler units. This rewards the player for both styles of play, while granting bonuses that encourage them to move out when they've been turtling too long and build up their settlements after a big period of expansion. It's thematic as well, because dwarfs can wait for hundreds of years before demanding a grudge to be put right. The player could even be encouraged to allow lots of raiding and sacking of their territory farming extra grudges, allowing them to achieve the best possible bonuses. All the while writing every wrong down in the book to be avenged. I think the system, as it is being advertised, is so close to being perfect, it just needs a little longer in the oven

@The77Voice

Ай бұрын

I agree. Every developer ever should know by now to not make required mechanics that debuff the player on a timer. Debuff mechanics go to quests that are failed or unique events. Nobody wants to play something that potentially punishes them constantly for the entire game for just existing.

I’ll have to look for them, but CA stated that the Age of Reckoning mechanic isn’t something you’re not always able to accomplish

@flosko

Ай бұрын

Yeah this feels off but at the same time lore friendly that the dwarfs can never get their age of reckoning (grudges never run out)

@TheRedAzuki

Ай бұрын

if you can't even get over 25% from turn 25-100, then that is a flawed mechanic. Sure not able to reach 100% every time is fine, but not even able to get into the basic positive effects is bad.

@Showstopper41000

Ай бұрын

@@TheRedAzuki Loremaster of Sotek was able to reach 100% at turn 90. I do not believe he is some kind of god at the game.

@TheRedAzuki

Ай бұрын

@Showstopper41000 if you win a lot in a row, it becomes literally impossible. I had to get 60 000 grudges settled, everything next to me had 400 or so, that would mean 100 settlements and armies, so 10 battles a turn. If I only did 3 battles per turn on average, (since its hard to get every army to get to fight something every turn simply due to moment) then I wouldn't beaten 33%

So I will be punished for using heroes to scout out my enemies territory, when I am doing it with the intention of not going in blind when I invade. Do you still earn grudges towards your total for confederation, if you reject the start of the next age of reckoning? for example lets say I get far enough that the bonuses are positive, then I just reject starting the next age over and over keeping those bonuses is that possible or will it force the start of the next age after awhile.

It makes the Dwarves like sharks now. Hyper aggressive, must always be conquering, and you’ll be in an uphill battle being punished for your expansion. Leaving no room for just taking back the mountains, time for chill economic expansion. It’s military expansion all the time or be penalized. And that’s just not the fantasy vibe I look for when I play dwarves. I want my mountains and I want to chill.

@Nerazmus

Ай бұрын

This guy literally just showed why doing hyper aggressive nonsense is a bad idea. You are supposed to chill, clear grudged and slowly expand. If you rush, the meter will scale way too fast for you to keep up.

glad someone put time into the system to discover this kind of situation. this is a kind of thing that is really good on paper but has flaws in the pipeline to make the end result, like early dark elf slave mechanics in WH3. hopefully they can scale these cool grudges better

Currently playing a campaign on VH as Malaki, was in a battle probably 8/10 turns of the Age of Reckoning and still can’t achieve the minimum amount of grudges to not incur negative penalties. Pretty absurd the lack of grudges you get, and that included killing Wulfrick twice!

Maybe they should make it that when every mayor grudge is settled then you always start out on the middle part of the mechanic

I feel the best way to solve this issue is to make the Age of Reckoning something that gets activated by the player. Start in Hibernation mode, no negative or positive effects. If you start the Age of Reckoning, you are basically saying: I'm ready to take on this mechanic and accept its potential costs or rewards. That's when you start racing to right as many wrongs in the selected time. At the end of each Age of Reckoning, there can be a third option (rather than the current continue or end), which is to return to some "hibernation" or dormant Dwarfs mode. This allows the player to choose the pace of their campaign, at different points in their campaign. About to expand? Activate the mechanic. Choosing to consolidate your land and play slower? Stay dormant (losing out on potential rewards, but also not getting penalized for not being on the constant expansion track). Activating the mechanic could be behind some small cost of resources or a cooldown, if they want to do that.

If you need to play Belegar like Skarbrand you know smothing went wrong.

@Nerazmus

Ай бұрын

This guy just showed why doing that is a terrible idea. Play slow and steady to win the race.

@kiritomato1908

Ай бұрын

@@Nerazmus if you want to play with all the new mechanics like the grudge settler armys you need to be hyper aggressiv. Which is kinda sad because i like slow and steady with the dwarfs.

@Nerazmus

Ай бұрын

@@kiritomato1908 Not really tho. The Grudgesettlers are somewhat similar to RoRs. They are your oh shit army. You slowly and steadily build up your meter and only trigger the Age when you get into a big war. Then you summon your free armies to settle the grudge. You are dawi, not Khorne. You aren't supposed to be running around with free armies all the time.

With the faction confederation cost. Have you tested to see if the cost goes down again after the confederation penalties have expired?

I think you're right about the incentives the new system is creating but I'm not particularly convinced the debuff is impactful enough to cry about. I think more than being incentivised to expand you're being incentivised to not meet new factions and stay very insular to contain the problem. The strangest thing about this system is that the Dwarfs are getting grudges against friends like Empire. Also by occupying settlements and fighting armies you are striking grudges from the book (ie losing them) but your reward is to gain a currency called grudges.

Holy... Three possibilities spontaneously come to mind as to how this could have happened: 1) Someone doesn't know numbers 2) Someone made a typo 3) Dwarven campaigns are meant to last a month plus I mean, I think it's great that you should be motivated to play an aggressive campaign, but as it stands right now, it's a doomed if you do, doomed if you don't situation.

Good callout. Hopefully CA catches this in time before release, if not shortly after.

Thanks for this info. One thing i couldn't work out is whether the situation is made worse by you declaring war on all those far off factions?

I think the most simple fix would be to change it to have it start at a base amount,(like 1000 grudges) increasing by a set amount(250 per age of reckoning) up to a limit of say Max 3000 grudges.

Does delaying an Age of Reckoning by 10 turns have any weird effects on the requirements for grudges?

@blueleader102

Ай бұрын

I believe it increases the amount required by an additional 20%

@jaspermooren5883

Ай бұрын

Yeah it just makes it even more impossible to do afterwards. Its a deathspiral to delay the grudge.

The thing i've found is you just don't really get enough grudges fast enough, like at all. They very way it is meant to be used, making you be aggressive and win a lot of battles, actually works against it. As if factions don't beat you in battles they don't gain many grudges, so you can't get enough unless you lose on purpose every now and then.

The only real solution that I have had for this problem is to let the ai sack your settlements and build up grudges. If you play like the beastmen, you can effectively get a lot of grudges in generally the same area, while keeping your core province intact. The only problem I've been facing is to not have all the chaos factions declare war on you and then bum rush you with all they have, which makes the campaign a little unplayable.

there is another one that i experienced with tehenhauin, sometimes it just kind of skipped segements of the missions to get new rites and i got to rites 5 on somewhere around turn 8

To be honest, it's probably some maths bugs and should be fixed soon. like a x0.3 turned into a x3 of it's in percentage a a 130% turned into a +130%

I haven't played pre release build, but I think amount of grudges for age of reconing could be based on how much your neighbors have. That might be too generous for the player, but current system does seam broken.

This new system is not only flawed but it makes dwarf players rush and kill as much as possible as fast as they can to avoid debuffs. And if i understood this Age of Reckoning thing right i cant just ignore it because of these debuffs.

@KrayZee33

Ай бұрын

What debuffs? The ones seem rather minor? -very little growth (kinda fitting for dwarves) -very little PO (irrelevant) Upkeep is only for the op units, which you don't really have a lot of when you ignore the mechanic. It seems like the grudes get lower as well? Seems like you are supposed to have a high tide and a low tide. I like it.

@Nerazmus

Ай бұрын

It punishes you for rushing and killing as fast as possible. Did you not watch the video? It encourages you to stay small and build up.

@anon4854

Ай бұрын

@@KrayZee33 "wHaT dEfUfFs?" **lists debuffs** 🤦‍♂

@drezjin2594

Ай бұрын

@@Nerazmus why are you defending this so hard bro? it's clearly an oversight if playing normally is punished so hard. You have to go out of your way to play as slowly as possible, and why should you be punished for doing well in the campaign? Even if it might be lore friendly or something I would prefer a system that makes gameplay feel more fun and engaging by encouraging you to do what most people find intuitively fun about total war...expanding and fighting.

@frankkobold

Ай бұрын

​@@drezjin2594sounds like a skill issue

I feel like the mechanic should work the opposite way it does now. As grudges are made you get a stacking buff towards growth and recruitment cost ect ect. Then once you reach a certain number of grudges that other factions have accumulated you get the grudge settler army and then maybe take from the Greenskins “waaaagh target” mechanic and set a specific factions city to take, or maybe a specific faction to settle your grudges with. The more you settle in that period the better the bonus I think it fits better with the dwarfs, just sitting in a hole in the ground getting pissed off at all the people walking on your lawn, until you snap and lash out, then go back into your hole afterwards

This mechanic should be static and not scalling and it shouldn't reset after X turns. It should be a goal posts to achieve as you progress your empire in the intent to make it less of a slog managing all the territories in the late game if you decide to go for long or domination victory.

I can't say I'm surprised. I was thinking about this kind of thing when people were talking about it. It's just so much worse than I thought it might be. THEN hammered with debuffs. I had so many issues with the OLD grudge system I found it unfun.

yes, this needs some serious fixes and i think the penalty for confederation shouldnt apply to minor factions, and should be lower than 15k. grudges should only rack up on factions near you (at least until like turn 50-100 when you have the teleport mechanic). BUT, the farthest he got in this video was turn 21, and i highly doubt CA meant for you to be filling the bar to 100% every time this early in a campaign.

Seeing such a jump like that in grudges is so weird that I thought it was a bug. There is just no reasonable way for you to get all the way to the max level of the age of reckoning especially if the level of grudges around you remain so low. I was really looking forward to playing the Dawi, but not if they're going to play like this. I'll probably just buy the other two races and wait until they rework the rework that was reworked since it didn't work. XD

I love the concept for the Age of Reckoning! But yes, they definitely need to adjust the scaling to make it more achievable. I think they should also completely remove the penalties, and just gradually increase buffs over the 4 higher tiers of the Age of Reckoning. That way players can choose to ignore the Age of Reckoning system if they just want to play a chill dwarf game, and also won’t be punished by poor circumstances (like enemies running away or having few grudges because you’re defending yourself well).

So glad you made this video, had the same thoughts when I had a go with the new dwarf LL. I just got frustrated and stopped playing the campaign. Hopefully its patched soon.

I started a Thorgrim campaign last night and I didn't understand the reckoning thing at all. I thought it seemed shit and stopped after 20 turns. I didn't know if I was getting positive or negative effects. Guess I 'll skip dwarves for now until a fix is in.

They're ruining Dwarfs and replacing a cool modded Hero available for both human and dwarf factions with a mundane LL for Dwarfs only.

Seems unintended for sure, hopefully they fix it before or very soon after release. The dwarfs should have some push to keep moving, but shouldn't be TOO punished when they need to regroup etc. They are not Khorne and shouldn't be forced to keep killing and killing OR ELSE.

@Nerazmus

Ай бұрын

Oh no, it is fully indended for Dwarves to not play like Khorne.

so conquer by sheer military might? roger that...

@lordadorable1140

Ай бұрын

If you don’t learn from Rommel’s example, you aren’t playing the game

@leonidas231

Ай бұрын

@@lordadorable1140 its a game dont talk

@Insideoutcest

Ай бұрын

@@lordadorable1140 i think the scaling needs to be adjusted...thats about it. maybe remove a couple effects coupling with that scaling

I thought so, that was the first thing I thought was the reason for the increase in cost.

Have you reported this?

@Battleseyttv

Ай бұрын

Ofc! The video is more to give you guys visibility into why it's broken to make sure your campaigns aren't ruined by it.

@portakalagacindaoturanadam

Ай бұрын

@@Battleseyttv I'm a big dawi fan. Wanna get the best experience out of this dlc cuz we waited for soooo long for this. Thank you. This is huge.

Hopefully they can fix it before/right after the implementation, it shouldn't be too difficult, just change the rewards to be based on whatever your previous result was in the age of reckoning (For those familiar with Civilization 6, basically the same thing as golden ages where each successful one increases the requirement for the following golden age). Confederations really shouldn't scale at all besides when you confederate another legendary lord, i think, just make the required gap in grudges settled increase by 5k with each major confederation or something

It seems to scale with rate of expansion. It should be a flat increase per age of reckoning or scale with the current grudges available.

Maybe they could put a band aid on it: "The first 20 turns the grudge requirement (for tier 2) cant go above 5000 (or whatever a reasonable number would be), until turn 40 it cant go above 10000 etc etc"

quick fix is to make it like prestige for the empire that give faction buffs and can be used to confederate Dwarfs you have a military alliance with.

Seems to be the case if great idea bad implementation. Nothing a few updates can't fix

Age of recknoning not only made dwarves a greenskins lite, it is also broken.

@Nerazmus

Ай бұрын

This guy literally just showed you why playing dwarves as greenskins is a terrible idea.

First i got told the grudge requirement was based on number of settlements owned, then someone said it was the number of confederations done, and now it's number of known factions. This does seem to be the most likely one though, but regardless of what it is the grudge requirement is my one major worry about the patch. I can live with ignoring units/lord/heroes I don't find good, and I can live with said debuffs since I'm not as much of a hardcore player. But getting completely locked out of using any copies of some cool new units just because of this hurts. If they just enabled me to idk, buy a grudge settler here or there for grudges, or any way to guarantee them over time I wouldn't be nearly as peeved.

Typical CA. They didn't test it.

I get that it's thematic but i'd rather just... not. This feels like a Khorne or Ogre mechanic where you just constantly fight They should just keep the system, but instead of negatives when you don't grudge enough it gives you benefits for going out of your way to get them. If you turtle and build up your city you get no drawbacks or benefits, if you play hyper aggro you get stuff.

@Nerazmus

Ай бұрын

Eh, the negatives are neglidgable at worst. And yeah, you are supposed to sit around. That way, the number needed remains low, while people around you rack up more and more grudges.

I’ve been playing a dwarf campaign (admittedly legendary difficulty very hard as masters of innovation) and hit at least tromm each time after 50 turns because I’m attacking chaos, norska and greenskins. Lots of that is babies greenskins have been really active and settlements are 1000-2000 grudges each (most other evil factions are about 200-500, empire and Kislev are universally zero). I think it’s a bit excessive but not game breaking. For me it has the intended effect of changing my focus to greenskins, so I’d say it more about tuning the numbers than anything fundamental that needs to change. I’m also possibly about to run out of enemies (I’m strength rank 7) and have been regularly confederating so if anything I’d say they’re getting too strong.

I was surprised the dwarfs suddenly became extremely aggressive.

@Nerazmus

Ай бұрын

And then this guy came around, showed why going bonkers aggressive is a terrible idea, and you sighed in relief knowing that dawi are still slowpokes.

@jolt187

Ай бұрын

@@Nerazmus don't i wish

Somewhow i was expecting this. Im glad that CA gave the effort and all but this huge of an update was bound to have some sort of bug. If they continue with the pace they were doing the last few months we should expect a hotfix soon. Now to see who will be in a t-pose and were good.

I mean, a free dwarf army spawn in kind of nuts. Yeah it should be tweaked a little but not even I think you should get your third age of reckonging by turn 20

@Eclipsed_Embers

Ай бұрын

once you've finished your first age at turn 10 all subsequent ages can be delayed by 10 turns each. so you can enter the second one at turn 20, the third at turn 40, and so on

Heres a bandaid fix idea. Slayer buildings provide passive grudge settling.

Grombrindal is one of the dwarven lords I can see it being possible to get the first Age of reckoning to 100% on. But that is just another flaw in the system, because mapping out the method... you need to be hyper aggressive, and fight every battle to minimize losses, and hope rng is in your favor on enemy army movements. Because you hafta hope Malakith is in the small settlement to the right of your starting capital's province, and stays in range after you take your capital, to grab his 400+ grudges, loop to Naggarond, and down to curve towards the rats to finish them off. Hypothetically it puts you in a position to rack up your 100% shortly after... but there is the possibility you need to intentionally lose settlements nearby to buff the grudge numbers before killing the enemy army. And that just does not feel good to be locked into that kind of pattern, every game you wanna do a perfect AoR start.

But I don't think you're supposed to fill the meter every time. Otherwise what's the point in having it. Though I do think that minor confederations shouldn't add to LL confederation and they need to have a work-around for teleport battles.

Now imagine a coop campaign.

When I first saw this I thought it seems like counter of how the dwarfs are suppose to kind of play. Turns them from a turtle faction to a rush faction it almost feels like. Also the whole gaining basically entire armies for free seems a bit broken as well. I think the grudge settler units idea was not well thought out.

I like the reworked grudge system but it's numbers definitely need tweaked and adjusted. Also there either needs to be a lot more turns between age of recockenings as ten turns is a drop in a bucket for a campaign and not all of us can blitz a continent worth of grudges.