Gene, there are few people in the world like you left (tell it how it is) I really admire your no BS.

@zeinulaabideen

5 жыл бұрын

very true...AV is becoming an esoteric space cos of some who want to make it that way...of course, one needs to apply basics of physics which is not everyone's cup of tea...however the role of an OEM/SI is to simplify the clutter and make things easy for the layman...dont see this happening though...Gene is an exception!

@berthacdellasala

5 жыл бұрын

Me too!

@Audioholics

5 жыл бұрын

Thanks Aron. We certainly aren't getting rich doing this but as an audio engineer, I feel it my civic duty to keep things real and cut through the nonsense.

@ayokay123

3 жыл бұрын

@@Audioholics Pete Aczel must have loved you.

@dc5001

8 ай бұрын

​@Audioholics I remember Gene talking about the bad reliability of sub plate amps does active/powered speaker plate suffer from the same reliability issues long term?

For my senior project in school (electrical engineering) i took an older 7.1 Yamaha receiver, modified the dsp board, took the digital I2S signal right before the DAC, pulled it into an FPGA, wrote a decoder and encoder, FIR filtered crossover @ 2.5KHz, inject the signals back into the Yamaha DSP board and borrowed one of the surround stereo channels for the extra signal (front highs) and basically turned 7.1 into 5.1 bi amp front receiver. Drove 2x RBH 661SEs, embedded a relay into the passive crossover to bypass. Much better sound. Linear FIR fillers are great for crossovers, no phase shifts from passive elements.

I really like the hangouts y’all are doing & Matthew is one of my favorite guests. I especially like that y’all are honest, even when it doesn’t endear you to those within the industry.

I find these discussions quite interesting and informative. I'm endlessly fascinated by speakers and you guys help me scratch that itch.

Great discussion so far

Meridian has done the right thing all along ... tap the PCM streams after the signal has passed the decoder, room correction etc... send it to the speakers digitally (with a separate volume flag) and let the DSP crossover / amp in the speaker do the rest. I never utilized the digital out of my old Meridian G68, as their speaker were too expensive for 7.1 use :( I would like to see all AVRs have ehternet connectors (straigh out of the DSP section) for all channels, and use a simple LAN cable to each speaker.. maybe even daisy chain channels if possible.

When I built our recording studio I was introduced to active monitors. Started with Events and moved to Genelec. I never looked back. I reasonally purchased the JBL Professional Series 3 MK II for my surround system. 305 for center and surround and 306 for the main. I added two LSR310S sub. The speaker were on sale and I bought all of them for under $2K. They aren't Genelec's but for the price they sound amazing. I have a Marantz

Thanks for a good programme, enjoyed your views on the current state of the active vs passive speakers approach and how we got here. I'm myself trying to come up with a perfect formula that would apply a technology such as dirac to my custom big horn speakers (close to the avantgarde audio one) with passive x-overs. Take care

Great topic. Phase Technology in Jacksonville does fully active home theater packages called DART that I’ve been really interested in. Any chance of reviewing that?

I think I have seen Dynaudio use all-pass filters in the 90's. Their first order crossover had more than 20 components in a two way. Dynaudio at that time, loved the idea about first order filters, and therefore all their drivers could handle 1000w for 1ms.

A fine active speaker that I heard and worked with is the Ascendo Immersive Audio Live 15 . It's an AVB NETWORK technology with Room Acoustic correction DSP technology. It's an amazing pair of speaker. I wish you can run a test on that.

Gene, active is amazing! I've got all JL stuff! JL Twk88 DSP, HD750/1 pushing 1x JL 10W7AE, JL HD600/4, 2X JL 300/4 with JL C5 650 in doors, RBH 4"beryllium mid + vifa teeter(both I bought directly from RBH Sound), and a bass Shaker in the seat. It sounds amazing! I used REW to measure and tweak. Active gives you so much control. Btw, I live just down the street from RBH and I know Shane. I've done work for them. ACTIVE IS AWESOME! Bass shakers are also really fun, as it brings the bass forward.

Thanks guys for the hugely informative discussion. Would be great if one day you could review the Dynaudio Focus XD active speaker range, in particlular the 20 XD standmount active speaker. Thanks!

The benefits and limitations combined of passive design crossovers in speakers is why i like klipsch loudspeakers! Dynamic advantage of actives, yet the flexibility, simplicity, and convenience of passives!

49:18, they don't need an HDMI in, most DACs have USB, same digital data. I wanna see USB to be used more often, so we can once and for all, delete internal PC sound modules. We will free up space for more useful IO.

@DaniloMisuradeOliveira

3 жыл бұрын

Agree about USB audio in. But to offer the active speaker solution to most of the public, they should also have connectivity with TV sets. A TV is the first (for many the only) AV equipment people buy, at least here in Brazil. So, if TVs could output audio through USB, and even control speaker volume thorugh it (like through HDMI ARC-CEC), it would be the most universal connectivity for an active speaker, which would allow the most general usability. But unfortunately never heard of TVs being able to output audio through USB, which is a shame. They all run some kind of Linux based OS, so it'd be trivial for manufacturers to implement that.

I'm a newb, and because of that I'm biased toward active speakers because of one question; Would I prefer to match seperates together to get that perfect sound... Reading reviews and trying to swim through the snake oil, or would I prefer an audio engineer to match these components together with precision?

Gene what about a review of that Edifier Airpulse A200? There was unboxing video with promise of a review but it never happened. Or it's just not posted yet?

@Audioholics

3 жыл бұрын

Been delayed due to move The A200's didn't really impress me so thry swapped them out for A300s. Hopefully I will have better results.

A couple years later and Gene you have passive speakers correct? Thanks

Why do we often see input impedance shown on active speakers specs? Are they not already matched with their own internal amplifiers?

Gene, I would be glad to do a video discussion like this with you.

@Audioholics: Most seem to believe "active" is necessarily (and only?) an all-in-one package, as suggested by Mr. Guttenberg, hereby loosing out on choosing separates of choice. The latter option adds complexity, sure, but in the greater scheme of things it would seem a viable option for many a tweak-geek audiophile to invest his or her time with. Myself I've very recently gone all-active, with separates, and it's a treat.

Can you do a meet on what makes a good surround and why for today’s immersive surround formats?

Just curious if the Sonos One is an active speaker.

Brilliant!

M-Audio M3-8's = 3 way system, I love 'em paired with 2 svs PB-1000's

Sorry trying to understand what is the difference between a passive speaker and active speaker? I’m trying to start setting up my home theater room and so far I’m starting with two SVS PB-1000 Pro’s because I love bass..🔊 and 4 Polk OWM front L/R and rear L/R are those passive or active.🤷🏻‍♂️. and I’m ordering SVS prime center. 🤷🏻‍♂️. Thanks to anyone that can answer my question. 🙏🏼👍🏼✌🏼

@victorvalenzuela6949

3 жыл бұрын

Okay never mind. I just looked up another video answered my own question.✌🏼

Does this qualify as an active system? 1. Remove the passive XO from a 3-way, 4 driver speaker 2. Connect one 2 channel amp to the woofers 3. Connect another 2 channel, one channel to the tweeter, the other channel to the mid. 4. all managed by a 3-way EXO w/selectable slopes & filter types. Also has some add’l built-in DSP in the form of PEQ, GEQ, & time alignment. Thnx

I have had several speakers brands all were passive. I was never real happy with all of them. And all of them never had a deep clean bass. So one day I listen to Definitive technology 250 watt power monitor 900 with a 10" subwoofer open port on the rear and it had a very clean bass in small size. Definitive Technology has been making active speakers for a long time.

I never dealt with active speakers until I heard an omnidirectional speaker setup with an active system. After seeing and especially hearing an active system, I started to work on some vintage speakers, and because my speakers were being greatly affected by room acoustics. So, I used an active processor with both active and passive speakers with the subwoofers being active. Now, I am in a position to buy two more amps, and already having the active processor, I am now easily going to finish setting up my vintage speakers in an active system to finish what I started. An active system can really contour a driver into a decent sounding driver without having to resort to very expensive drivers. I am not saying that such techniques can totally make up for poor manufacturing, but I am saying that it is a most gratifying process that gives a budget-minded person, once they get past the initial investment, flexibility and the control to have more input in the way your speakers and room sound. That's not bad, if you are willing to study, put in the time, and have the enjoyment to get invested in the sound of your home system. I will emphasize that my speakers already had the design that was very conducive to going active. The room control is absolutely a great advantage because again, not everyone can afford all the room acoustics to tune a room for a stereo system. There is also the shaping of each of the drivers in order to tune or adjust the weaknesses to suit your ears. Doing so over time and learning how the changing of the individual driver frequencies through the processor will affect the sounds . . . you lose the intimidation factor because you can always set it back where it was before, and you are not stuck with a fixed sound, as you pretty much are with the passive crossovers. It isn't because you cannot change the passive crossover, but because not everyone can afford all the chokes, capacitors, and resistors that are needed to do so -- much less the equipment to do all the testing to get the proper measurements to decide what components are needed and in what values. In any case, it is a matter of personal taste, comfort zone, budget, and expectations . . . and a great desire to meddle and participate in the tuning and tweaking of your system.

My issue with an active speaker is what do you do when the build in amp goes out. This was my biggest concern when choosing which Triton speakers to pick up.

@MACtheVILLAIN

5 жыл бұрын

Vincent Davis you let GoldenEar know and they send you a new one.

@vincentdavis6379

5 жыл бұрын

From their warranty information they cover the amp for 3 yrs if they standby their products beyond the warranty then I will be even more impressed with Sandy Gross and GoldenEar

@MACtheVILLAIN

5 жыл бұрын

Vincent Davis I’ve dealt with GoldenEar service personally and there is no better group in the industry. They stand firmly behind their products.

@vincentdavis6379

5 жыл бұрын

Well then I am glad I made the purchase I did with them I just need to save up for a 2nd super sub x but so far I agree they are awesome to deal with just didn't realize they were that good

@JonathanDFielding

4 жыл бұрын

Build it all yourself, piece out the drivers, use your own amp, add dsp to tune it and it's a great experience.

Hi Audioholics. I'm a recently converted audiophile and am learning more and more about audio reproduction every day. I'm currently using wharfedale diamond 240 towers as my stereo fronts, driven by an onkyo Tx-Nr747 rated at 175w per channel. Quickly learned never to trust those figures and have practically found out. I want to add a subwoofer(s) to them as the bass is not satisfactory and my understanding is that if I do that, this add more solidity to the higher frequencies as the amp will low not be burdened with ultra low frequencies. My question though is: often there is warnings not to crossover the sub at too high a frequency, say above 80hz, as this will create localization. I often see on speaker specs that the bass drivers are crossed over at much higher frequency than this, how come then the localisation talk is not an issue in tower speakers?

Definitely passive, so long as you have high quality caps, coils, and resistors. That's why I did full crossover network rebuilds with my Klipsch RF-3 II system, it now sounds incredible, I also added internal bracing, and driver damping. I'd pit these against active speakers, without a doubt.

@ovidiubarbu2057

2 жыл бұрын

I guess is a matter of taste. I have Buchardt A700 plus the WISA HUB. And many other speakers-high end. Buchardt sounds the best to me when I use the WISA and keep everything in the digital domain. I would describe them as more transparent than many others , including Martin Logan towers

@DescartesRenegade

Жыл бұрын

You could say the same for active speakers. Use high quality components.

Really depends on the power of you put to you passive speakers no active can compare to the likes of a 10k Macintosh amps lol but I get what your saying compared to diminishing return active can be hard to beat because internal amps are tuned to speakers

Is it really that important is the filter is "perfect"? Isn't it more important that the crossover matches the driver and that they together playes music?

any opinions on genelec speakers

@JurMalafi

5 жыл бұрын

2nd tier active studio monitors, and that is not far below the top tier. Better than most passive speakers with a great amplifiers.

totally agree that active speakers are superior in general, especially more and more people listening music from their computers so the physical set up also much easier. I have progressed from passive speakers in my living room to active speakers in my study room: Dynaudio passive --> Dynaudio active ---> Neumann active which is the ultimate IMHO. I practically stopped using my passive speakers completely

I agree with Gene regarding lower priced soundbars. I'm actually plan on getting a stereo receiver as a soundbar replacement. 99% of soundbars under $400 are only stereo anyway, but with less proficient drivers, aren't two-way, and can't stereo-image properly because of the fixed nature of the left and rights channels therefore they have to employ psychoacoustics which most TV's already have built-in anyway. So that's why I'm opting for a stereo receiver. Plus, I don't have the need for the many HDMI inputs, optical and coaxial inputs, and phono outputs of an av receiver. And a lot of lower tier av receivers have various HDMI problems anyway or you have to wait on "promised" functionality, so why bother, especially seeing as I'm not setting up a 3/5/7.1 surround system. Gene will be amazed now, as The Fives from Klipsch have an HDMI input. Active speakers have come such a long way.

ATC SCM40A. Brilliant.

Have u heard the ATC SCM40A Active speakers Ain’t nothing better for 2 channel

You guys are aces on the audio information, but i think you should work on the video quality of these talks (camera quality, in particular).

@Audioholics

5 жыл бұрын

sure when we find a live stream service that offers better quality, we'll get right on it ;)

@avjake

4 жыл бұрын

@@Audioholics You obviously need a little help with your camera technology. Matthew's face is blooming like he's radioactive. That is caused by a camera being set to automatic exposure and adjusting for a generally dark scene, which causes highlights to be blown out. It has nothing to do with the streaming service. I have been live-streaming classes for Cornell University for 9 years, so I know a little about it. Your video quality directly influences your credibility level, so I think it you should pay more attention to it.

@Audioholics

4 жыл бұрын

@@avjake cool, I sure can use help with that as cameras aren't my thing.

"On paper" active is superior yet they have had much trouble getting a real acceptance in the audio world. It appears some high end companies producing active speakers and maybe, finally, they will get the acceptance they deserve. Some don't like the idea of not being able to mix and match amplification, but if the actives sound best, what new amplification would one need? The pros far outweigh the negatives with actives. I have passives in my main system now, and actives in my office, but would go actives in the main system without hesitation too.

I lile how it rhymes: Welcome friends To a show that never ends.

Two driver loudspeakers with a passive crossover circuit appeared in the early 1930’s in Cinema Sound: filmsound.org/articles/amps/loudspeakers.htm As simple as they were strictly speaking these were probably the first. The most famous of course appeared in the early 1950’s with Altec Lansings “Voice of the Theater”: www.soundandvision.com/content/living-legend-altec-lansings-%E2%80%98voice-theatre%E2%80%99 This was, and still is, a two driver system with a passive crossover circuit.

Hi There Friends, Yes, it's true that high end loudspeaker system designs require a great deal of dedication, education, and determination, but once those factors have been addressed, there is something absolutely magical to be gained from a passive system. I have been designing and building high end loudspeaker systems for about fifty years, from the time before separate component hi-fi systems were available! I have loved every minute of my life of building passive speaker systems, there is no substitute for practical experience! Thank you! Lary

Vandersteen 5A is the best active speaker if you want more articulate and musical deep bass.

For me the biggest advantage of passive speakers is that if you purchase quality speakers there is no reason they shouldn't last for decades of use. In regards to Active speakers, for me the biggest issue, disregarding the potential of the amp within dying creating a brick as my Kef are but Technology changes, its quite possible that the inputs used with the active speakers will no longer be in use in 5 to 10 years then once again you either have to live with ancient tech or buy new speakers where as if you had purchased passive speakers to begin with, you can choose to upgrade the amp and have a state of the art unit.

Question is answered succinctly at 41:37

i think the problem now in active loudspeakers is that they mostly put the amp and dsp inside the cabinet, external is the way to go. i have zero good experience with active speaker, subwoofers included. sure it sounds good, but there is always hiss noise or something creeping thru.

@Miskatonic-University

5 жыл бұрын

No there isn´t. I do have plety good experience with active speakers.

@sudd3660

5 жыл бұрын

im just saying my experience with the power i feed them from my wall, im sure others will have different noise levels depending on power from the outlet. my point is that putting a plate amp inside with the drivers magnets make for a system that is more sensitive to the power you feed them and also has noise issues since it's a compact design with noise drawbacks.

@Miskatonic-University

5 жыл бұрын

@@sudd3660 I completely understand your point, just saying it's not muy case. I have 2 active subwoofers and a pair of active LS50W. Zero hiss nor unwanted sounds.

@sudd3660

4 жыл бұрын

@@Beos_Valrah i think active speakers also are more sensitive to the power you feed them and or the signal connected to them, in my house they make his noise while others say that its silent in their house.

@Beos_Valrah

4 жыл бұрын

@@sudd3660 Yes I would say it has much to do with the type of signal (analog / digital) and the internal signal + amplifier design of an active speaker. I think this is kind of overlooked by many manufacturers which I find rather sad... I run my speakers with a digital input and they actually work digitally, so this really helps with the whole hiss issue.

Yes I saw that video made me laugh .ATC active 50 pro never looked back put anything through them .

"Pretentious?" I don't know, I saw that video and that's not the impression I got. Not sure our definitions are the same. I thought all he was saying is that if you go with the "All-in-one" active speakers, you are locked into what the manufacturer has given you and if any part (Amp, DAC, crossover...) fails, you're kind of screwed if you can't get it repaired. Also, by using an "All-in-one" you take away the ability to change out parts of your system, limiting the sonic potential of your system. The simplicity (and quality of some) of these speakers will ensure they are going to be popular. As they should be for what they are. Those Kii3s are supposed to be amazing, however I am not sure I'd put $20K into a single product with so many points of failure. (Extreme example, I know) Great discussion topic. Cheers! 😁✌️

@harpalchauhan428

4 жыл бұрын

Even I saw and commented that all in ones are a disaster movie in the making 😂😂😂

Is Finn a First Order crossover?

SHOTS FIRED!!!!! Audioholics throwing beef at the audiophiliac! Lol

ATC actives sound very good. Are the more accurate than passive? Maybe not, but they do a great job and nothing to be concerned about. Powered also work nearfield. 1st order concern? Dunlavy used 1st order to his tweeters and that resulted in many blown tweeters. (That also means he skimped on the tweeter IMO) A Vifa silk ($28) is superior sounding to Dunlavy's and can handle 100 watts, vs possibly 10-20 for the stock tweeter. This sucks considering the SCVI were $$$$.

Thanks for this vid guys, I instantly unsubbed and blocked steve gutenberg as soon as he said audiophiles don't buy active speakers, yet he reviewed, raved, and recommended the same speakers I have (Kali Audio lone pine series). Glad there's still some people out there using science and reason, keep up the good work.

I like Steve

Not exactly sure why non loud speaker designers are trying to intricately dissect crossover design! Do i get better sound from my speakers because i comprehend the dialogue on this thread??? Hummmmm....

Who is this British speaker manufacturer they refuse to mention? Any perticular model they are referring too?

@Gary_M

5 жыл бұрын

DARKFiB3R B&W was described similarly in the recent AH review so that would be my guess.

Fear of building electronic circuits into an “Active” environment is easily dispelled. The environment found in and on a speaker is nothing like is found in a air-borne or ship-borne environments. And this has been done for a very very long time. I like to point to: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voyager_program as an example of an electronic circuit that can live in a hostile environment and live for a very very long time. I personally was involved in designing submarine installed computer systems as far back as the mid 1960’s and those circuits would love to be installed on a benign environment like a loudspeaker cabinet. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submarine-launched_ballistic_missile

No reason to hate in Steve .

30 years ago cheap speakers were passive and expensive speakers were active. Today cheap speakers are active and expensive speakers are passive.

I'm not surprised that Gene isn't a fan of Steve Gutenberg, but I still like his videos, I just don't listen to him when he starts talking about $2500 cd player's and speaker cables.

@alexanderscott3790

4 жыл бұрын

William, what's wrong with $2500 cd players? And you don't think cables affect the sound of a good system?

@Edward135i

4 жыл бұрын

@@alexanderscott3790 I use a Xbox one X to watch UHD moives and I think it works great, and it can play CDs, if I had a time machine, I could go buy some!

@alexanderscott3790

4 жыл бұрын

@@Edward135i William, you're clearly not a hiend audio guy, so why do you care?! Steve is into high fidelity sound reproduction. You on other hand simply require anything that spins a disc and plays sound! Not sure whats the point here?

@Edward135i

4 жыл бұрын

@@alexanderscott3790 I thought this was sarcasm.

Active speakers when done right.. Hell yeah.

I know this may be out of your price range but for an “end game” system the $14,000 Kii Three includes full range speakers, amplifier, preamp, and room correction DSP that completely eliminates room treatment. This all adds up to what most people spend as an end game: $5,000 speakers, $3,000 DAC/preamp, $4,000 amplifier, $2,000 digital sources, $2,000 room treatment.

@C--A

4 жыл бұрын

Average speaker's overpriced!

Steve is a great guy but a hippie audiophile that you need to take in with a grain of salt. His videos are entertainment only. No real substance but an entertainer. I enjoy his interviews.

@Audioholics

5 жыл бұрын

Yea I probably could have been more eloquent describing Steve. Never met him in person.

@barneyjones5174

5 жыл бұрын

Steve likes speakers that sound JUICY.

Man when you say the show that never ends,you are right ,long winded or what. You must be the king of saying in.25000 words what could be said in 100

Many people think it is ideal if the crossover is not in the cabinet, so the entire amp may be worse. You certainly are limited by the amount of heat and service access in the cabinet. Steve G is no worse than most KZread reviewers in discussing tweak topics. I thought this reviewer made some excellent design points: kzread.info/dash/bejne/dYqbt6mxaLXKhc4.html

Active speakers: do you only need one speaker or two ????? I have never heard a active speaker before only in a sub .

@bennyjorgensen

4 жыл бұрын

Still need two. Left and right

@JonathanDFielding

4 жыл бұрын

I have a fully active 3 way front stage in my car + sub (4 way total) all dsp driven with independent amplifiers. The flexibility on timing alignment, crossover slope and frequency, and parametric eq tuning... In the end it's an incredible sound quality build. You just cannot time a sound system like that in the Analog or passive domains

I really don't get it. Some things are facts and cannot (or at least should not) be debated, while other things are a matter of taste. Speakers are a matter of taste. Yes, you can watch videos all day long, but in the end it's what you whant to live with, that counts. I have had, and build, several passive and active. Why do you and others want to go after Steve like he's a "flat earther". He has hes opinions, you have yours and I have mine. You schould all trust your own opinions and trust that.

Passive speakers deserve to rule the market for one reason: typical product life. 50 years vs 10 years is quite a lot. Active speakers already rule the pro market (where the speaker is just a tool) and the cheap/disposable speaker market (where price is the only thing). The only companies who successfully sell expensive active speakers are well-known brands with long histories - becausepeople are reasonably certain that they won't be left without support when (not if) the electronics develop a fault. For example: ATC still services 30 year old active speakers. Will the new Chinese owned Dynaudio do that for the Focus XD? I think not. By that time the TI digital amps they use will be ancient technology.

Active speakers are too risky. Once the internal amp fails you may not have too many options. You may need to test, de-solder and re-solder components or send it in to the manufacturer for a pricey repair. Worse off the thing might not be serviceable without doing a hack job (seen it on reddit and there's no telling if you'll even fix it). It isn't worth it, buy passive and DSP it. *I'm only referring to mid/high price active speakers. Cheapo ones may be worth it depending on circumstances.*

@Audioholics

5 жыл бұрын

The same can be said for powered subwoofers yet they dominate the market and people don't hesitate to buy them.

@MACtheVILLAIN

5 жыл бұрын

I have active towers where an amp failed. Not only was it super simple to change the amp but the manufacturer overnighted not one but two amps to make sure i was back up and running. If you buy from a reputable manufacturer and dealer all of the issues you mention are mitigated.

Check All these "EXPERTS" Just enjoy what ever Speaker's you have..🤷‍♂️

Steve, pretentious? Lol.

Guys all videos 1 hr long are difficult to watch. What about less length and more concentration.

@Audioholics

5 жыл бұрын

only our live videos are this long.

@JosephTongret

4 жыл бұрын

I actually like their longer live discussions. Almost like a podcast.

@IsmaelMartinezPR

4 жыл бұрын

@@JosephTongret Sure, but say so in the description so I can skip it. Don't have the time for 1hr videos of a single subject.

Passive way better .

@bobbyDig

3 жыл бұрын

Not even close.

Active - garbage for several reasons .

Twilight zone. For your entertainment. Snobs rail against switching amps like class D. World-class powered monitors and speakers use switching amps Snobs are therefore, full of shit.