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@liammorris9372

5 жыл бұрын

Hey Web DM, you briefly mentioned the Sanity and Honour ability scores, it could be interesting to hear in a video how you would integrate them into a campaign and how they might interact with the game world. It would also be interesting to hear how players might use these ability scores to aid in their roleplaying or how NPC’s might interact with PC’s with varying levels of honour and sanity. Off the top of my head, a thieves guild may have more respect for a dishonourable rogue (no honour among thieves) and may be mistrusting of an honourable paladin where as guards would be the other way around.

@jayteepodcast

5 жыл бұрын

Hey WebDM question: what are your thoughts about not using a character sheet are their any system that you dont need it for

@WebDM

5 жыл бұрын

There are a lot of games where you don't have character sheets-- sometimes you don't even have characters that only you play! Most of them are called "story games" and there are a ton. Most can be found on drive through RPG. Here's a few names: Polaris The King is Dead For the Queen Tall Pines Something is Wrong Here

@wobblysauce

5 жыл бұрын

Sounds like a Normal FATE game.

@darklightstudio

5 жыл бұрын

Please, always remember to add the auto CC option! Thank you guys:)

That intro is what happens when you're trying not to make puns, but your charisma is a +5.

@chastermief839

5 жыл бұрын

passive pun score, if you will

@andrewknorpp9415

5 жыл бұрын

@@chastermief839 Spot on, that's ten plus the pun skill right? I think Pruit has expertise in that.

@jamescollette1296

5 жыл бұрын

@@andrewknorpp9415 Wow, we are seriously at a disadvantage here with all these puns. Do you really think we have the strength to continue?

@joeking1956

5 жыл бұрын

But maybe your Wisdom is -5. Just kidding, I loved the opening. Keep up the good work.

In the great words of Mark Twain, when speaking of Wisdom, "Wisdom comes from good judgement. Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement."

@ralegade7710

4 жыл бұрын

Experience is the best teacher, but a fool will learn from no other.

Best thing I've ever seen on Facebook: DnD ability scores explaned with tomatoes. Str: ability to crush a tomato. Dex: ability to dodge/catch a thrown tomato. Con: ability to eat a rotten tomato without getting sick. Int: ability to know that tomatoes are a fruit. Wis: ability to know not to put tomatoes in a fruit salad. Cha: ability to sell someone a tomato-based fruit salad. Someone commented "well if you think about it, a tomato-based fruit salad would be a salad" and someone else said "Found the bard!"

@moviewakker

5 жыл бұрын

Pssst, it is salsa :)

@shadowgear7032

5 жыл бұрын

This is great

@cameronragan2384

5 жыл бұрын

There was a tomato way of explaining wizard magic schools that was very similar

@Oddmanoutre

5 жыл бұрын

@@cameronragan2384 Illusion: Painting a green tomato red. Alteration: Hybrid tomato. Necromancy: composting your tomato plants with rotten tomatoes. Conjuration/Summoning: Calling up the grocery store to order tomatoes in bulk. Et Cetera?

@pepperypeppers2755

4 жыл бұрын

Knowing the common ingredients of fruit salad is definitely intelligence though. Wisdom would be "knowing which of you friends wouldn't like tomatoes without asking" or "finding wild growing tomatoes" or even "creating a fruit salad tomatoes would taste good in"

I'm five minutes in and I want to answer your initial question- ability scores represent your natural talent, while proficiency bonus represents your training. With little training (low level characters), your natural ability is more important. Later, your training overtakes your natural talent in importance. It actually fits fairly well with how the real world works.

@anthonynorman7545

5 жыл бұрын

Except for when the rogue takes expertise in aracana and outperforms the wizard who had 20 int, a lifetime devoted to the arcane arts, and the ability to literally bend the fabric of space-time.

@yanderenejoyer

5 жыл бұрын

@@anthonynorman7545 If the rogue has expertise I'm arcana, he also devotes some really good time to studying the arcane arts. Mind you, I proficiency in arcana only gives you factual knowledge about it. No spells, nothing, just history and recognizing arcane writings, things of that sort. The wizard has to split his attention between factual knowledge and practical knowledge. Only factual knowledge will not be enough to conjure spells imo. They also focus on a specific school of magic, which is the one time I usually just give them the info, no roll required (If the roll involves their school of magic).

@Chikken28

4 жыл бұрын

Except that your proficiency modifier can't overtake your ability score bonus until like 17th level. Kind of undermines the whole experience / talent thing.

My passive stealth is pretty high, I scare people at work and my roommate all the time because they don't hear me coming. Pretty impressive for a really big dude, so I'll take it

@lukerogan1505

5 жыл бұрын

So you're a bugbear?

@andrewknorpp9415

5 жыл бұрын

@@lukerogan1505 Yesssssss

@bitharne

5 жыл бұрын

I have this too. I don’t try and “sneak” up on people all the time. Pretty entertaining...furthermore; I’m really good on my feet but have maybe average hand-eye-coordination. This I miss Agility as a thing ala classic EQ. I have high agility but much lower dex 🤷‍♂️

@richardshelley143

4 жыл бұрын

I've been told that I am too quiet and if I moved around 'normally' a lot of people freak out due to the inability of hearing me come or go. It is so hard having to make deliberate noise so that they know I'm near

I rolled ONE 18/00 live in front of a DM. Was too new to the game to understand why the table went wild.

@Technotoadnotafrog

3 жыл бұрын

Massive damage!

I always felt like Wisdom and Intelligence were similar to Strength and Dexterity. A high Wis implies mental fortitude and situational awareness whereas a high Int relates more to having a quick and keen mind. Wisdom is mental strength and Intelligence is mental dexterity.

@jnbaker7422

5 жыл бұрын

likewise, charisma is mental constitution how many hits can you take in a conversation before you drop? ok maybe it's not the best analogy

@nivolord

5 жыл бұрын

I agree. Though that doesn't explain that the knowledge skills of older DnD's are intelligence. Of course, knowledge is the mental fortitude.

@michaelcross7665

5 жыл бұрын

I would switch the two. Intelligence is how strong your mind is, wisdom is how practical it is.

@Diditallforthexp

5 жыл бұрын

@@michaelcross7665 Wisdom saves are tied pretty closely to mental defenses, so I'd probably stick with the strength and fortitude analogy. The mind doesn't dodge a charm, it resists it.

@blindbeholder9713

4 жыл бұрын

@@Diditallforthexp The mind absolutely dodges a charm, it just uses a slightly more sequitous method. The mind stops a charm by realizing why it shouldn't act the way the charm tells it to.

I had a great English teacher with proficiency in stealth, she was just silent. It was scary at times.

@isaacgleeth3609

5 жыл бұрын

Now THAT'S a great idea for a character.

@Diditallforthexp

5 жыл бұрын

I had a science teacher with the Sharpshooter feat. Doze off and that old man could ping chalk off heads at unlimited range

@johndevlin9225

5 жыл бұрын

I think that’s just the level in monk all old teachers get

@cannastartover1720

3 жыл бұрын

Is it just me, or should the original post should have rhyme.

The best way I've heard it put is: "Intelligence is knowing that a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is knowing not to put a tomato in a fruit salad."

@blindbeholder9713

5 жыл бұрын

Intelligence is knowing Frankenstein isn't the monster, wisdom is knowing he IS the monster! That's my favorite anyway.

@AGrumpyPanda

5 жыл бұрын

@@blindbeholder9713 That's actually really good

The way Jim unreservedly validates all of Pruit's ideas by echoing them is the kind of wholesomeness we all need in our lives!

Thinking about what Jim says at the beginning: you could always go back to OD&D, where ability scores didn't really have any mechanical impact. They were just guidelines that helped the DM figure out the things you probably could or couldn't do.

I do think willpower should be separated from wisdom, but self reflection is not intelligence. Intelligence is your ability to recall and apply information, wisdom is your awareness of the world around you and of yourself.

I like the fact that the mental stats are ambiguous. This is why: Wisdom can be a measure of your attention span, your judgement, your intuitive connection with the wild, or your eyesight. When I play a character with low wisdom, I can choose any of those traits to be why my wisdom is low. With low intelligence, I get to choose if I'm just not good at thinking, or just haven't got to study. I might know very little about history and the multiverse, but I can still be a quick thinker. Or the other way around. With a high charisma, I get to choose if I'm just physically impressive in some way, have a voice that makes people listen, or have learned the art of manipulation, saying what people want to hear. This way of treating a high or low stat as something that requires an explanation for why it is not average, makes possible more personalities: Not everyone with keen hearing have a good judgement. Your ranger with 16 Wis can still be reckless, she has the high stat because she has sharp senses. The reason this requires the stats to be ambiguous is that they are spell casting attributes. You want good wisdom on your druid, and if wisdom would mean judgement and judgement alone, it would not be possible to play a reckless druid (without making the character suck).

Remember back in 2e when Player's Options dropped and you could now have Stamina / Muscle / Aim / Balance / Health / Fitness / Reason / Knowledge / Intuition / Willpower / Leadership / Appearance instead of Strength / Dexterity / Constitution / Intelligence / Wisdom / Charisma?

This episode was deep bruh Thinking of "skill checks" this way really lends a deep understanding of where the rubber meets the road and changes my desires for DMing my own games.

@WebDM

5 жыл бұрын

Glad to help inspire!

"You can't just assume the edition is the same because it looks the same." Too true, Jim. Too damn true.

Personally i think one of the issues you have with the mentioning of profeciencies doesnt come from the effect of ability scores, but more the "anybody can attempt anything and succeed" part of the game, i am much in favour of matt colvilles way of saying that only people profecient with a skill can participate in certain things, in his case it was skill events, sure, maybe everyone can walk sneakily, but only someone in profeciency can climb sneakily, or open doors sneakily, or whatever. and i know that changing this would not be to everyones desire, but it is one way of handling some checks atleast. Good video as always.

@QuintemTA

5 жыл бұрын

I agree but I think this applies more, the larger the group gets. People trained in the thing should be allowed to shine at it.

@aralornwolf3140

5 жыл бұрын

@@QuintemTA , Well.. Pathfinder has a flat +3 for trained class skills as a bonus. An average Dex Bard trained in stealth vs a high Dex Monk who isn't... and the Rogue wins 100% of the time (if using the average roll of 10). Example (Using Point Buy) Bard Str: 8 (-1) Dex: 14 (+2) Con: 12 (+1) Int: 13 (+1) Wis: 10 (+0) Cha: 18 (+4) Monk Str: 14 (+2) Dex: 18 (+4) Con: 12 (+1) Int: 8 (-1) Wis: 15 (+2) Cha: 7 (-2) Stealth Rolls Rogue: 10 + 1 + 2 + 3 = 16 Monk: 10 + 4 = 14 Path Finder merged the Spot, Search, and Listen skills into Perception; move Silently and Hide into Stealth; Balance, Jump, and Tumble into Acrobatics; and a few others. This allows more choice with your skill points at later levels.

I wonder where Jim got that definition of Int. It doesn't line up with anything I have read. Book learning, facts, logic, reasoning is INT. Internal speculation and awareness, philosophy, applying life experience has ALWAYS been Wis... at least since I started in 3rd. If it has a cold, hard answer, INT. If it is wibbly-wobbly and requires judgement calls or intuition, Wis. The function of WIS being tied to religion is just a secondary effect of religion needing to answer the unknown frequently. The only weird part of Wis is perception, there could be an argument for that being Dex or Int as well. Overall, perception seems to be a "handicap" skill to aid the gameplay more than a real, good RP addition to D&D.

@aggarius2944

5 жыл бұрын

So that’s how I say what I was thinking, thanks

@Shamrock797

5 жыл бұрын

Vazzaroth My guess is, Jim is describing his real-world view on intelligence vs. wisdom, rather than the game-stat definitions and usages. Because you are correct about how the *game* has defined those stats. But it sounded to me like Jim simply disagrees with those definitions, and offered his own perspective.

@joshuarichardson6529

5 жыл бұрын

In 3rd edition, the Intelligence modifier was added to Search skills, while the Wisdom modifier was added to Spot skills. Archery was linked to Dexterity, while empathy was linked to Charisma. In D&D perception is all over the map in terms of its six stats. There are better ways of doing it, but the "core six" are part of what makes D&D the system it is, and tradition demands they be kept.

@douglasphillips5870

5 жыл бұрын

In 1st addition AD&D int was for wizard type spells and wis was for cleric type spells people with especially low stats could only take certain classes, fighter for low int, and thief for low wisdom. So, if you'd been playing long enough you probably came up with your own way of broadening the stats.

@michaelcross7665

5 жыл бұрын

The simple answer is that he just is wrong in his definition

Dude, reflecting on past experiences and learning from mistakes is the VERY DEFINITION of Wisdom. You get wise as you get older for this exact reason.

hold person isn't a physical restraint, an an enchantment spell it stop the person moving though mind magic, to temporarily induce paralysis in the target not the restrained condition

@stevevondoom4140

4 жыл бұрын

essentially Grappling is grappling , which requires no spell slot...

Play walks into encampment of soldiers with a cast of rare Dwarven wine, " okay what officer order does there's no name on my order sheet I might have to take it back" soldiers look to the right and left of them " no we were that" we'll have another delivery inside the castle, get waived on with no thought of even asking who I am chr 7 dex 10 wis 13 Int 6 Str 18 character relied on his strength to save him 😆

That whole "don't ask for ask for an ability check, describe your actions" are a pet peeve of mine. My players are going to get a +1 to the DC every time they do it lol.

@YoungOneJim

4 жыл бұрын

Player "What do I know about fiends?" Me "Your character is a bard with low intelligence who's spent his life playing in pubs, you know they're not nice" Player "I rolled an 18 on history/nature/arcana" Me "You know they're really not nice"

I feel like ability scores are meant to be tie-breakers. If you as a player are charismatic, you don't need a high charisma score to back that up. But if you're doing something with a really questionable outcome, and the DM needs a final push in one direction or another, they can have you roll. And that tie-breaker decides what happens. If your character is good at describing dexterous actions, you don't need a high dex stat. But if an outcome is questionable, the Dm will have you roll for the tie-breaker. I think abiding to closely or too loosely to dice rolls and character sheets takes out the fun a bit.

While I see what you mean about WIS, I like that a high Wis low Int character can be conventionally dumb, but very experienced and able to stay on top of social play.

@edwardnigma9756

5 жыл бұрын

The way I play they got their insight and smarts by failing A LOT and watching other people succeed.

As a human bard/monk I can agree passive stealth or passive deception is fantastic

One of my bigger problems (the biggest?) with ability scores is that they do not seem balanced with skills, in that some ability scores have a multitude of skills associated with them, while others only a few. Ultimately, if I create a strength or intelligence based character, it feels like I'm picking up the same, or most of the same skills every time. Whereas for dexterity or charisma based characters, I can make two wildly different characters (skill-wise) for the same set of stats. Now, I don't think that ever ability scores needs to have the same number of associated skills (although, this might not be the worst thing ever), 5e seems to fall short as it relates to skill options for some ability scores.

Best part of Wednesday's is going to bed second best part about Wednesday's is WebDM third best part about Wednesday's is WebDM intros.

Ability scores are far more important than Jim implies early in the episode, especially mental stats. They reflect a character that is better than the player. The wisest person at your table might be a 14, while it would take someone from lore/myth like Buddha to reflect a 20. Same with Intelligence and Charisma. No one at my table could completely accurately reflect a Charisma of 18-20. Your character being better than you is why they exist; so you can get a roll if your RP is missing the mark or so your GM can make a judgement call for or against you.

@peterosborne8315

5 жыл бұрын

Howard Hooven yeah. It's similar to strength and dex Nobody at my table could lift 2 horses at once...

I think there should be more flexibility with governing stats. If a pally took up the mantle of a fallen paladin, and learned how to be a paladin and how to do paladin things by reading the journals and library of the fallen paladin and practicing for years, I'd say let them use Int to govern their abilities if they want.

@shadowgear7032

5 жыл бұрын

As a dm i allow this as long as no one tries multiclassing with it.

In our DnD game, our Dm created a luck stat which governs anything chance based, it also can be used as a point system ( modifier = points per day) and if you roll an attack roll over 20 you can spend a point to treat it as a Lucky Hit (basically a crit)

@WebDM

5 жыл бұрын

Interesting!

What the hell is up with the recommendations, lol

@madmanwithaplan1826

5 жыл бұрын

are you seeing a shit ton of childrens videos too?

@lishuss

5 жыл бұрын

God I thought it was some weird shit on my end. I don't want to be put on a registry just because I watched a dnd video. ...wait. was it the sing song after credit bit?

@isaacgleeth3609

5 жыл бұрын

@@madmanwithaplan1826 And none of them are Baby Shark.

@TVlord5

5 жыл бұрын

Thought my nephew was using my youtube without me knowing or something..

@chasebalcziunas4289

5 жыл бұрын

Am I the only one with Russian Minecraft videos sprinkled in the other children’s videos?

High ability and low proficiency = Honor roll but no work experience

@TodlicheVerwuste

5 жыл бұрын

Or "that one douchebag" who just skates through with natural talent and never has to study, or work at it.

@MetaCliff

5 жыл бұрын

@@TodlicheVerwuste Yeah, that was me through high school. I'd sometimes sleep through algebra class. They'd wake me to answer a problem on the board, I'd look at it for a second, blurt the correct answer, then fall back to sleep. Never developed a work ethic, cause I didn't need one. Then I went to college... Let's just say that my ability score was not high enough to make up for a lack in proficiency. Everyone else was leveling up, getting those proficiency scores increased, taking feats and ASI's and even the odd expertise, and I was level 1 with my starter 16 INT and proficiency in bullshit. I now work at a pizza shop. I regret everything.

20:00 something I try to do is ability initiative or perception initiative. a lot of times players play roles opposite of who they are irl. so the shy kid at the table may have an 18 CHR, but the scrawny kid playing a roid head with 18STR who is hyped on fun dip jumps ahead of the shy kid and tries to bully everyone in town, acting out some violent fantasy before the charismatic PC can try diplomacy and charm. If you try to include one challenge for each ability type per session, you can almost always know who to point to handle the situation first. That's how I use the ability score.

@liampezzano

5 жыл бұрын

I did not think of that, making Encounters to attack different Ability Scores. That's excellent. Gives you a great spread across the different pillars.

Talking about the end intent of a player's actions is honestly the best advice for a DM. Because the game is (mechanically) a series of single d20 rolls, they can often describe things in an abrupt manner, focused only on that next roll. "I try to sneak past the guard." That leads to a simple stealth roll, which a legendary assassin may botch and fail. That's all well and good, even the best fail, but when you ask them what their goal is, how are they going about that task, you sometimes find that the possible roll might not actually reflect what they are after. It might be that they don't want to tiptoe past the guard, but wait until the guard is chatting to someone and just stride past, or cause a distraction which leads him away. Getting right down to the specifics of what a character is actually doing, rather than what roll is needed can cut through a lot of confusion or frustration and it makes it all seem very real. It's also more satisfying for the players, they get to play out their good (or bad) ideas, think like their character and ask questions about the world around them.

I take some umbrage with Jims opinion on wisdom, i have always viewed wisdom as the other half of intelligence, intellegence is learning a thing, and wisdom is the application of that learned thing, wisdom is often time associated with experience because you dont have to be particularly smart to have a deep understanding of something, this understanding comes from the time spent immersed in the thing. I will concede that intelligence does play a part in wisdom, a person who cant learn, cant apply their knowledge. But i do think that wisdom is a distinctly recognizable thing compared to intelligence.

@anthonynorman7545

5 жыл бұрын

Is engineering a wisdom skill because it's applied mathematics/physics? Is knowing that a person is sad because they're crying an intelligence skill because it's logical induction?

@Elsneakakaze

5 жыл бұрын

@@anthonynorman7545 yes.

@anthonynorman7545

5 жыл бұрын

@@Elsneakakaze your agreement opposes what 5e states and what you stated in your last paragraph. Knowing that someone is sad because they're crying would typically be called "common sense " or pragmatic intelligence. Engineering requires "formal" education because the application of math/physics is in and of itself formal knowledge. If you have issue with my selection of ability scores, you've gotten to the root of Jim's issue: the wisdom vs intelligence determination is often unclear.

@anthonynorman7545

5 жыл бұрын

@discoandherpes that's optional under RAW

@anthonynorman7545

5 жыл бұрын

@discoandherpes then nothing is RAW by RAW

Jim has a beef with Wisdom. How foolish. I'll see myself out.

Excellent video. There's always the option of not allowing players to do something unless they have proficiency in it. No matter how high your dexterity score is, you just aren't going to be able to sneak through that Orc village without being noticed unless you have years of training in stealth or deception.

16:00 Honestly this seems pretty lame. Like I feel that the mechanical detriment of having a low charisma, that being the decreased chance of success, is enough. Those numbers are there to modify the roll, and if a player is lucky enough to roll well and acts well in an encounter they should get the benefits, not have them stealthily lost at some later date. Like imagine if you had a low strength, and went to stop some rocks from collapsing, you accept risk and through both the roll of the dice and your quick and bold thinking you stop a tunnel from collapsing: is the DM then going to later decide the tunnel collapses off screen because your flat score is low? It's not the biggest deal but "your social actions can't have a lasting impact" is such a not fun way and unnecessary extra detriment to tack on to a player when they are already lacking something that is mechanically important enough on its own.

@andrewdavis200

4 жыл бұрын

Agreed. They even said shortly after that "even idiots can be right sometimes" when discussing low INT. If a low CHR character rolled really well on a persuasion check I would still let them succeed, I would just narrate action as being not being as natural as a high CHR character. "Normally your scowling face and aggressive demeanor turn people away but this NPC seems to view them as endearing and accepts your proposal."

@shaepsycho

4 жыл бұрын

It can ruin great rp moments

I actually quite enjoy Blades in the Dark's stat system. There are 12, 4 of them are based on visuals, 4 in physical power, and 4 in charisma. They're just spread out enough that you can't min-max strength without having 35 skills and not instantly knowing which you should roll.

@WebDM

5 жыл бұрын

We're gonna have a short Blades game in July on our twitch channel! Can't wait to try it out!

@SamuelCorell

5 жыл бұрын

@@WebDM Fantastic, 100% will tune in

I love the perspective of not letting intel, wisdom and charisma stats determine how you rp your character. I have a pally with an 8 int and I play him as a strategist. It's my character - if my dm decides to have me make an int check for anything and I fail, then I fail, if I succeed, then I succeed.

Remember, if you don't have any friends as a wizard, you can always make some with your spells. Also, INT and STR are two stats nobody wants, until they desperately need it :D. You can't push those boulders aside to free yourself from a cave with dexterity, and you certainly can't decipher that ancient script with charisma. Those situations rarely occur, but when they do, they can be major ©#©kblocks.

@liampezzano

5 жыл бұрын

It would fix a lot if STR added to AC, and Perception/Nature was INT.

Strength based intimidation IS a thing. Personal opinon: if a character is not proficient they with don't get to roll or the DC is significantly harder (+5 or so). Expertise would open even more options.

@williamwalton9154

5 жыл бұрын

@HeyImLincoln ...OR... You seem to have stopped reading partway through. Training matters A LOT. You can try to do anything, and native talent (stats) can achieve a result but it will be in no way comparable to a trained (proficient) individual with equal or even lesser talent. The no role is mostly for knowledge rolls.

@williamwalton9154

5 жыл бұрын

@OrangeManBad thank you. I think we can cut our fellow a bit of slack in that I assume he is naturally of a more chaotic bent and enjoys the randomness of dice rolls and how wildly they can seing a scene whereas I am by nature very lawful and require structure and fidelity to an objective system. The game is big enough for both and each can be both right and wrong. Each group will make their own way and balance their mix of DM and players accordingly.

@16m49x3

5 жыл бұрын

I always let my players use the ability mod for the skill that makes the most sense.

Since it was mentioned in the video, I would be quite interested in another video that focuses specifically on passive skills. The way I've had it explained to me and the way I'm running it, is to have it be similar to the "take 10" rule of older editions. If they're in a somewhat calm situation then they can use their passive skills, else it's a roll. But I'll admit that as a new GM I didn't even knew passive skills were a thing until a little while ago when I was reading up on the Observant feat.

@delacreaux

5 жыл бұрын

You've pretty much hit the nail on the head. The official description (PHB 175) mentions allowing passive checks for actions that the players are able to do repeatedly, like taking enough time to search the room top to bottom for secret doors, or can be used by the DM to secretly get an idea of a player's average capabilities, like if they notice a foe sneaking up on them. Most people are aware of the second case due to passive perception (or passive insight from earlier editions), but aren't aware it can be used for other skills. If there's no external pressure, I have no problem letting players "take 10" on most checks.

@Mephiidross

5 жыл бұрын

@@delacreaux Well, that's good to hear, thanks for clarifying that!

Don't give up on your glorious intros Pruitt! Your untapped abilities score points with me.

Wednesday's always a good day with WebDM

Around 20 minutes, you discuss the concept of not basing what you want to do on what skills you are proficient in, and that is exactly backwards. In real life, people have various abilities that they are capable of doing to various degrees due to practice, and they tend to put themselves in situations that lean on their skills, they don't just go forth and seek to do things and hope they know how to do it. And since players are simulating characters with which they are less familiar than themselves, it is entirely pertinent for them to consult what those characters' strengths and weaknesses are.

In 1st edition I rolled up a Magic user with 17 Dex, 18 Con, 18 Int and 5 Charisma Rolled randomly for spells and wound up with Hold Portal and Detect Magic, good times.

The main problem with 5e is those social skills vs roleplaying. A 20th level Necromancer with an 8 Cha is less intimidating than a 1st level Bard with a 16 Cha despite the fact that a 20th level Necromancer could lay waste to a town with Meteor Swarm and then raise all of the victims’ corpses as his personal undead army.

When I think of the difference between passive and active perception, I try to explain it using what I think is called the “gorilla” test. There was a psychological study done that asked the subjects to see how many times a basketball was passed between players in a basketball game. After getting their answers, right or wrong, the experimenter would ask if they noticed the gorilla. Most of them didn’t because they were tracking the ball. This is active perception, which lasers your focus in so much that you might fail to see what is right in front of you.

In my opinion, the best way to distinguish between a person with proficiency in stealth (or any skill) and someone that's not, is with the narrative. When someone trained messes up, it's probably doesn't carry the same consequences as someone that isn't trained. Likewise for success. They may have a higher bonus, but it hurts more when they fail and success doesn't grant the same level of rewards.

In my homebrewed rules, we use skill passives (at Dm discression), amd we treat the skill scores as simply modifiers for when we do roll, with only strength,dex, and con factoring into role-playing (sometimes). There are no crit fails or crit successes on skills, and weapons are set into classes with strength/proficiency requirements (if your proficent then some weapons can be used with dex, like longswords and spears and handaxes)

When it comes to roleplaying Ability scores I am usually against it. The statistics on the sheet are required to be optimized or at least made viable for the class but it might not always be in agreement with a player's concept of their character. For example, if a player runs a Battlemaster Fighter with a history in tactical training and extensive education as an officer but has to take an 8 or 10 on INT in order to be viable, I cannot demand they act stupid. In general I believe the character concept does not necessarily need to revolve around mechanics and numbers on a piece of paper. Setting that aside, awesome video as always.

@sacredbeastzenon

5 жыл бұрын

Vorlok I just give my players higher ability scores. Otherwise, I don't see the point. If you're playing an intelligent Fighter, then that's what he's going to be.

@aralornwolf3140

5 жыл бұрын

8 isn't stupid... just slow at learning new things. It's great that he specialized in one thing, War, Tactics, and Strategy... but anything outside of this competency.. he knows nothing beyond the basics.

Relevant to one of Jim's points earlier in the video, my 5e house rules (which largely cut down on rules to make the game closer to classic B/X D&D, and limit levels to 11) do slightly lower ability score modifiers while raising proficiency. Ability scores are capped at 18 rather than 20 and there are no racial bonuses, but proficiency starts at +3 and reaches +5 by level 9.

Intelligence is knowledge, wisdom is understanding

@johnathanera5863

4 жыл бұрын

Thats unbeleivably vague and completely unhelpfull in game lol

@johnarcane9915

4 жыл бұрын

@@johnathanera5863 Intelligence = memory recall and strength of mind. Wisdom = ability to interpret the world around you and strength of will. Better?

Ehehehe When all Stats are dump stats so you can guilt/pity your way to power.

@asdghjkl1001

5 жыл бұрын

Sounds like maxed charisma to me

@Xenibalt

4 жыл бұрын

i will end you. here is a new character sheet

Strength, Perception, Endurance, Charisma, Intellect, Agility, Luck - Fallout. Agility, Constitution, Memory, Reasoning, Self Discipline, Empathy, Intuition, Presence, Quickness, Strength - Rolemaster - - - I have not played D&D in decades, since when AD&D was current.

At my table how I rule passive perception and perception checks is a passive perception is the combination of all your senses. You are letting all your senses help you in detecting threats, seeing and odditiy, or smelling smoke, and ect. If you are activiley looking for something you are using just your sight. If you are smelling something, you are using just your smelling. So if you roll lower then your passive perception then its because you were not using all your sense to detect something. Thats how I see it and my players were down with that ideology and we have been using that rule for years.

My favourite Variant Rule is "Skills with Different Abilities" because, yeah, sometimes a skill can be used in atypical way that still kind of makes sense. Rewarding creativity like that with essentially a bonus can be useful if you want to play up RP. Besides, if say a person wants to use their Intelligence or Charisma to move stealthily through a camp, they probably aren't proficient in Stealth or have a lower Dex and so it's only a slight bonus to what they would have probably gotten. Conversely, if the PC is proficient in being sneaky but is shy (therefore has a low Charisma), when they have to impersonate a guard, there's a good chance they'll get picked out for acting strange despite trying move in a Stealthy manner whilst disguised.

I feel like ability scores are a necessary evil in a system like 5e where robust systems within the rules exist that are dependent on skills and modifiers. Some of our issues with scores can be stifled by good roleplaying, but I really think a big issue lies within 5e in that ability scores are disproportionate in skill distribution/unbalanced. A lot of saving throws within the rules don't make much sense for the spells at hand, and I also feel that classes in 5e (casters mainly) really need an evaluation on their casting stats. I really like all the insight you guys have! Despite coming from older editions you use your experience for critical thinking rather than bias, and it's great that you examine different perspectives and just talk casually about it. Excellent content as always. I always look forward to new videos in my feed. (Looking good BTW Jim.)

@liampezzano

5 жыл бұрын

Too many Charisma Casters! Wis for the Paladin! Con for the Sorcerer! Int for the Ranger! That would be my fix. Plus make STR add to AC and it fixes a lot.

@abcdestroyer

5 жыл бұрын

@@liampezzano I definitely disagree on a few of those, but I see where you're coming from. I do agree that there are too many charisma casters, though. Dexterity as a stat has a massive amount of utility in 5e. With a high dex you can easily have comparable AC to heavier armor wearers, and an even closer one if you wield a shield. Dex has so many skills and saving throws associated with it, and a lot of them make sense! However, strength in particular has only one skill associated with it. I really think it could benefit from having more skills, but on the other side of the coin it's really hard to think of any to create. Yes there is give and take because of strength builds' capability of weapon and armor usage, but even USING heavier armors usually has some big drawbacks that aren't analogous with its counterpart. And regardless of what stat is better, if you're at a table of friends who aren't assholes you're gonna have a great time regardless of what is "good" or "optimal." I let one of my players use Wisdom as his casting stat for his warlock. I have a barbarian casting magic using some UA playtest material. D&D is fun.

Intelligence = it’s raining outside Wisdom = I need an umbrella lol At least that’s how I’ve always explained it I do agree that stats have totally changed from 1st and 2nd edition and like games like Numenera for the universal modifier and ability to influence ability checks but still love DND. A good way to reinforce intelligence’S influence is simply throw a bunch or brain moles or intellect stalkers at your group of theatre kids n watch the chaos ensue awesome stuff as always

I have probably brought this up before, but hey, it's relevant, in my games often when I call for ability checks I have already determined the check to be successful, and the dice roll is simply the amount of time it takes to complete.

Ability scores being only guidelines makes sense. I like to point fingers at Kraken often when these things come up, because they have Charisma 20 and that level is usually described as Life of the Party kind for that ability score. Imagine what you will :)

My favourite way to describe applying skill proficiency to ability checks is when a player is trying to figure out what their character knows about a creature. If the creature is a rarity in the world and the knowledge is hidden away in ancient tomes then I’d call for an Intelligence (History) check. If it’s a creature that would be common in the cultural psyche and folklore - trolls, faeries, will’o’wisps, and the like - I tend to call for a Charisma (History) check to try and recall that story told round a campfire, or from an elder.

D&D will never move away from their basic six abilities. Personally I think Perception and Willpower should replace Wisdom and Charisma as stats but it won't happen. What I would like to see is more balance. A DEX fighter is far better than a STR fighter in this edition and INT is the dump stat for most builds. This should be redesigned so there are benefits and penalties for each stat to avoid everyone dumping INT except Wizards and 2 archetypes

@shadowgear7032

5 жыл бұрын

I agree with this about balance. I will say fighters is one of the few where str and dex are quiet balanced for the builds. Int needs some love and so does str but when it comes to fighter str does well.

@AGrumpyPanda

5 жыл бұрын

That's one thing I like about Cyberpunk2020 (the RPG from a couple decades ago that the new game shares a universe with) - every character benefits from all stats. They benefit to different degrees, but when character creation comes around I can always just tell people: Reflex is how well you shoot so it's important for everyone, Empathy determines how much cyberware you can have so it's important for everyone, here's the stat(s) that matter to you, the rest are all useful it's just what you care about most. Even the broadly least useful stat, Luck, is still really good when you have a lot of it since it lets you get hefty bonuses to rolls when you need it.

Only 00 I ever saw rolled legit was a half-ogre, which as I recall got +25% on their exceptional roll

Yeah, having players describe what they're doing is important. One of the big ones is when a player say's "I'm assisting on that." I always ask "How are you assisting?" and they have to come up with a way in which they are assisting in order to get it. Like, your character who knows Primordial is in intense diplomatic talks with denizens of the Fire Plane, how are the players who don't speak Primordial assisting on that check? If they can impress me with an answer, then I'll certainly allow it, but if the table is chuckling at their response it's like "Very amusing, but it doesn't help."

Yup, skills is one thing 3.5 is better at than 5e, my Rogue suck at climbing now...

Thank you for pointing out that Wisdom is this weird mish-mash stat of all kinds of different things. It may as well be called "andeverythingelse". I always liked in sci-fi RPGs how there is usually a stat which covers technical ability separate from intelligence, and I kinda wish D&D had a fantasy analog for this.

I seem to remember seeing Comeliness as an attribute score in some system. Good decisions come from wisdom. Wisdom comes from experience. Experience comes from bad decisions.

Honestly, this is the one topic I think almost noboy else actually talks about in this manner. Glad you guys did it. Also, I hope there is a future stinger of just Pruitt talking about the new Glorhammer album. Hell, I'll pay for an entire EPISODE if I have to. :D

@WebDM

5 жыл бұрын

It might be a few months (album came out between shoots) but that will almost certainly happen!

@TheNerdySimulation

5 жыл бұрын

@@WebDM Yay! :D

Dex to damage for finesse is game breaking, as is the ease that rogues get their sneak attack damage, especially with how critical hits work now.

@6:55 - Feat: Carmendine Monk. Prerequisite: 1 or more levels in the Monk class. Benefit: Increase your intelligence score by 1 to a maximum of 20. You may use your intelligence modifier instead of your wisdom modifier to determine the effects of any class feature you have derived from the Monk class. When you would meditate during a rest to regain ki points you may study your thesis notes for 10 minutes instead of the usual 30 minutes.

I played a 4 int orc mastermind once, they were a strength based mastermind rogue with a level in fighter. The mastermind ability to help at range as a bonus action was effectively him shouting "Smash!". Good old Uz the Invincible. Additionally, he used darts, which can be thrown using strength because of the finesse attribute but still proc sneak attacks because they're ranged. Also one level in fighter gives you the archery fighting style for +2 ranged attacks rolls. Surprisingly decent character. He basically thought of himself as Sun Tzu, a warrior poet battlemaster, but he was so convinced of his own intelligence that he was oblivious to how others took advantage of and pointed out his idiocy. Fantastic character.

This is why I like dice pool games. The guy who has 5 agility and 1 in melee is going to be as successful in hitting their opponent as a guy with 1 agility and 5 in agility. Also, these games are usually classless and you CAN have the bruiser Ventrue or the charismatic Street Samurai.

@theoverdox

5 жыл бұрын

Shadowrun is such a great rpg

The abilities scores being more central than proficiency scores is a reflection of the real world. There are tons of people who spend years training to do things but meet a person who just has a natural talent at it and does what the people trained for better without any of the training.

I've started using the difficulty DC as the midpoint for success for ability checks. If you hit the 15DC I'll give you the information, you'll spot the thing or achieve the result. If you roll a 20 you get more information, you spot specific details, or achieve above what you were attempting. If you roll a 10, you get vague information or remember a few contradictory facts, or you still see the thing, but only catch a glimpse or miss most of the details, you may succeed the result, but it takes longer or you use more resources or only half achieve the result and will need to go back and finish later. It means the players no longer feel powerless when they fail a roll, and if they problem solve out of character they can get what they want.

Can you do an episode on how to run a solo campaign? My group split and i have only 1 player left. I find it really hard combat wise and even story wise any tips on how to renew stories and NPC's.

@WebDM

5 жыл бұрын

Thanks for the suggestion!

This is why I have added ability score draining attacks to some monsters and abilities that give disadvantages to saving throws. I also have modified or/and added diseases, poisons, and curses to the same effect and made recovering from them harder, in order to have out of combat encounters and environmental effects that have more interesting and lasting effects.

It would make more sense to call it will Will to resist fear and charm both mental effects Will to resist certain mind effecting spells like hold person and other mind dominating spells. But then again having a lot of will doesent make you see better or be able to befriend easier It would be good if the stats were called two things, one for checks and one for saves like Strength/Fortitude Dexterity/Nimbleness Constitution/Toughness Intelligence/Acuity Wisdom/Will Charisma/Ego Just my opinion tho.

@senormuertos4351

5 жыл бұрын

Coolnamebro Waiting I’m a fan of the double naming, though I also recognize it would be a bit harder for new players. Still though, I love the flavor of something like Ego, which helps to prevent you from being banished and such

@coolnamebro7363

5 жыл бұрын

@@senormuertos4351 Thanks. yeah half way through the stats i was furiously googling synonyms, don't know id it shows lol.

@senormuertos4351

5 жыл бұрын

Coolnamebro Waiting not terribly. I think the charisma/ego distinction is especially interesting

@coolnamebro7363

5 жыл бұрын

@@senormuertos4351 Thats what i was going for i remembered that ID was instinctual and animalitsic sort of, and the definition of ego was responsible for "reality testing" whatever that means and a sense of personal identity and that fit for me glad it fit for you too.

@senormuertos4351

5 жыл бұрын

Coolnamebro Waiting yeah I agree. Further I like the idea that a sort of negative aspect of a trait gives you a benefit. Someone with a big ego feels like the world revolves around them, which helps them resist someone else who wants to control them

Web dm: why isn’t hold person defended by strength? Me: actually most of your strength comes from your ability to control your nerves. This is why the first few months of resistance training your muscles don’t change even though you are getting stronger. What really goes on is your nervous system learns to stop firing your antagonist muscle when your trying to lift. If you think of hold person as confusing your nervous to trigger your antagonist muscle it makes perfect sense that hold person is a wisdom save. My girlfriend: yeah. Also people normally want to use hold person on something big and brawny and it would suck if it just couldn’t work in them like ray of enfeeblement. Web dm and me: 🤯

The issue with the "what would your player do in this moment" ignoring abilities is sometimes they don't line up. Monks saying "I'm going to try to tangle this whip around my enemy, get them in a hold, trip them, etc... That's grappling and shoving. So the theatre of the mind clearly shows a monk executing this strategy well, then in game their STR score of 8 makes them entirely worthless at this. I agree it should work! But maybe it's a bit idealistic of perspective on game design and DM judgment.

Jim sounds salty his clumsy but skilled rogue was outshined by a more naturally nimble character

i played a strength based wizard one time, that was amusing... 2nd stat was int ofc, but i went more towards control/buff spells and based myself on sword fighting

Passive skills have a floor only when you have all the time in the world to do something. Example, picking a lock out of combat versus picking the same lock in combat. That is where the rogues shine when using skills inside of combat.

Wish they'd talk more about the weirdness of old D&D editions. I'm looking at you Comeliness from the original Unearthed Arcana, or the split-scores from 2nd edition Skills and Powers book. Otherwise a good episode.

I found for the argument of Wisdom resisting charms and not Charisma to be solved if you think of it like this: Wisdom saves prevents you from being affected by the world differently. Charisma saves prevents you from affecting the world differently. Charm Person is a Wis save because it means someone wants to affect your perceptions of them. Zone of Truth is a Cha save because it means you will say truths when normally you would lie, making you affect others differently with your words.

That first minute of puns was very good 💯

That opening was horrifically great.

Sounds like Pathfinder solves a few of the issues you mention - but does so by making the game much more complex. Attribute bonuses are less central because there's dozens of other bonuses. And things like classes working of different primary attributes is possible via archetypes. But yes, it does make things MUCH more complex. It's a trade of.

My mechanical problem with ability scores is the fact that you need to specialize in like 2, maybe 3 at most.

i always liked playing a low wisdom as naivete as well, theyre not necessarily dumb and they can perceive, but there is an inherent knowledge that comes from experience. naivete is fun, as well as childlike wonder. can goes a little bit into int, but still.

A way I help incorporate the actual ability scores into my roleplaying (especially wisdom) is by tying them into my TBIFs especially when my own instinct is to do the right thing but that wouldn't be my character's, I use a D&D basic rule where the DC is my ability score and I need to roll under that on a d20 and just kinda use that as a guide. The big example I use was when we were playing an evil Out of the Abyss campaign and my character was a mad scientist obsessed with learning everything he could. We reached a point where (spoler alert) Demogorgon was slowly approaching while destroying the town. Now the smart thing was to run, but my character would be obsessed with seeing what was going to happen, I mean this is seeing a GOD in person. So he would make a WIS check using those rules every round to resist his flaw. He failed a couple times until eventually his better judgement took over and he fled but still, if he had had lower wisdom, he might have just stood there until it was too late which while some people wouldn't enjoy, for me that's how that character would die so I'd be totally fine with that.

Sad Pruitt makes me very sad for him.

I'm the DM for a new 5e group of 6 players starting up tomorrow w/Session 0. Every single character sheet I've been sent has DEX 16. Every single one. Only one character has a STR score above 10 (STR 13 for the Halfling Paladin).

@benofthewest3534

5 жыл бұрын

The closest I've ever seen to this before was INT scores in 3e

> I like to roleplay without reliance on my character sheet >When my Players roleplay against their character sheet I punish them by reducing the longlasting value of that contribution. Interesting contradiction.

@shadowgear7032

5 жыл бұрын

Yea it's weird even someone who is not charismatic can make good arguments.

@AGrumpyPanda

5 жыл бұрын

@@shadowgear7032 Indeed, it's how parties should approach social situations: the smart people provide facts, the wise people provide reasoning, the charismatic people do the convincing.

I too can attest to the power of passive stealth. The thing is, though, that I am a very large man with no training in anything. I guess that my quiet personality somehow affects my walk, but I end up startling people a lot when I don't intend to. Though I guess having a 6'3" gat guy suddenly appear behind me without me noticing would startle me as well.

Humming the song from Disney Robin Hood is a low key flex for us ‘80s dudes.

The ability to self reflect, process experiences and find a spiritual center is wisdom. The ability to process and recall information like doing calculus, recalling the date that Alexander conquered Persia, and winning at chess is intelligence. That being said, I am struggling to determine whether you failed your intelligence or wisdom check.

Intelligence is your Hard Drive. Wisdom is your Processor. Charisma is your Graphics Card. Int is how much you can know. Wis is connecting those things together. And Char is how pretty and effective you are at displaying that information.