There ia quite a contrast between newer and older comments. Older comments show more process of thought whereas recent comments, not so much. It demonstrates the evolution of KZread and how comment style and quality has changed over the years. Having said that, this is NOT a reenactment of Shaker worship; it is an artistic interpretation that was choreographed and arranged by Salli Terri.

Shakerism wherein they 'shake' their sins away in ecstatic dance and song. Very interesting and an enduring legacy of religion and faith in America.

@thursoberwick1948

Жыл бұрын

I reckon the real thing was wilder than this.

I’m NOT a religious person, but I am awed by the beauty of the symmetry, simplicity. It really is unlike anything I’ve ever seen. Stunning.

@SRose-vp6ew

Жыл бұрын

Psalm 149:3&4 Let them praise his name with dancing and make music to him with timbrel and harp. For the LORD takes delight in his people; he crowns the humble with victory. Zephaniah 3:17 The Lord your God is with you, the Mighty Warrior who saves. He will take great delight in you; in his love he will no longer rebuke you, but will rejoice over you with singing.” And from John 3:14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.” 16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever LIVES by the Truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

@pdstor

Жыл бұрын

Watch any of the Raretonga Catholics or old Orthodox in Ethiopia, Egypt, Greece, India. Christian services were more or less like this until the second of these so-called Great Awakenings.

@pdstor

Жыл бұрын

Watch the old Scottish Calvinists sing the 17th century Psalmody for that matter!

@bradleyscarton3931

Жыл бұрын

The Shakers were radical in their thinking in their day. Both men and women were of equal footing, believed in natural health, against slavery and prejudice, were pacifists. They believed they practiced true Christianity.

1:14 - Come to Zion 4:06 - I’m on my Way to Zion 5:42 - Oh, the Beautiful Treasures 7:56 - I Have a Little Drum 8:30 - Who Will Bow and Bend Like a Willow 9:31 - Love, Oh Love, is Sweetly Flowing 13:21 - Ina Vina Violet 14:00 - I Will Bow and be Simple 15:16 - Simple Gifts 16:45 - Living Souls 17:49 - Finale

This is a choreographed program. Performed at Shaker Village by the University of Kentucky Choristers annually from 1979 to 1992. The performance you are viewing is part of a longer documentary.

@osaabd390

6 жыл бұрын

Hello Donna, is this a real service? or is it enacted? are these real shakers or performers?

@ruegaillard

3 жыл бұрын

@@WJHSCessna i was thinking they all sounded like trained singers...

My great aunt Lil was a Shaker. I think the simplicity of the song as a central part of worship is very endearing and holy.

Just saw Ken Burns' documentary on the Shakers this evening so wanted to see what their songs and dances were like. I was raised Anglican then became Catholic, so therefore I have a really hard time understanding this style of worship. Many of the Shakers' contemporaries did, also. However, I do think their singing and dancing is beautiful and very much so represents the beauty of faith as they understood it to be.

I have no words to describe it, delightful!

I went to the Shaker Village of Pleasant Hill and learned that they always sang in unison and never used harmonies to keep people feeling equal, and this seems to feature many harmonies.

@Envergure

2 жыл бұрын

@Ellie5621 Yes, definitely very theatrical. It isn't even intended as a serious historical reenactment. I have a Shaker hymnal attributed to "The Canterbury Shakers" and it includes harmony similar to Protestant hymnals, and even anthems, but not rounds, and the vocal ranges are congregational rather than choral.

@l-kin3480

Жыл бұрын

@@Envergure where did you get it?

I love the simplicity with which this people lived in their time. I could never live like that mentally, but I wish I lived like that materially. No excesses, no absurd over consumption. And what an extraordinary reconstruction and beautiful singing. We are so great full to these people participating in this reconstruction.

@Mulberry2000

2 жыл бұрын

@Delling Conley Silly statement another post that humans are a plague. Such self hatred.

Preformed the Shaker Worship Service in the early 90s. Amazing times!

Come to Zion, sin-sick souls in sorrow bound! Lay your cares before the altar, where true healing may be found! Shout alleluia, alleluia - in praise resounds o'er land and sea, All who will may come and share the glories of this jubilee! I'm on my way to Zion, that peaceful, happy mansion Where life is ever flowing and death is never known Come on, my well believed, Ye whom the Lord hath saved. Let not your heart be troubled, You'll soon arrive at home! O, the beautiful treasures laid up for the wise, How precious the value, how glorious the prize! Far brighter than diamonds on prince's brow, And richer than royalty can bestow! I have a little drum that Mother gave to me, The prettiest little drum that ever you did see! (Rum, ta-ta-tum, rum ta-ta-tum tum) (throughout the chorus) I'll drum night and day, I'll drum night and day I'll call volunteers to fight sin away! Who will bow and bend like the willow, Who will turn and twist and reel? In the gale of simple freedom, From the bower of union flowing? Who will drink the wine of power, dripping down like a shower, Pride and bondage all forgetting? Mother's wine is freely found Oh, ho I will have it! I will bow and bend to get it! I'll be reeling, twisting, turning Shake out all the starch and stiff'ning! Though I speak with the tongues of men, and of angels, and have not love, I am become as a sounding brass or a tinkling cymbal. Love suffereth long, and is kind. Love envieth not. Love wanteth not itself, is not puffed up, doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not its own, is not easily provoked. Thinketh no evil, rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth. Beareth all things, hopeth all things, believeth all things and endureth all things. Now abideth faith, hope, and love. But the greatest of these is love. Love, o, love, is sweetly flowing On its banks a wind is growing, These a mother is bestowing, Love, love, heavenly love! Come, ye children, freely gather Unto love and bless each other, This will bind our hearts together In love, love, heavenly love! Put your hands to work, and your hearts to God! (Three times) I-ne, vi-ne, violet! Ee-ne, see-ne vingo pret! Y-fen, wa-fem, wa-ne voo! O-le, mo-le, minzy two! Aoren, waoren, wany vo, mother's love is even so! Oo-ne, e-ne, i-ne vay, now in love we'll dance and play! I will bow and be simple, I will bow and be free, I will bow and be humble, yea, bow like the willow tree. I will bow, this is the token, I will wear the easy yoke, I will bow and be broken, yea, I'll fall upon the rock! Tis a gift to be simple, 'tis a gift to be free, 'Tis the gift to come down where we ought to be, And when we find ourselves in the place just right, 'Twill be in the valley of love and delight. When true simplicity is gain'd, To bow and to bend we shan't be asham'd, To turn, turn will be our delight, Till by turning, turning we come round right! Living souls, let's be marching on our journey to heaven With our lamps trimmed and burning, with the oil of truth! Let us join the Heavenly Chorus and unite with our parents, They will lead us on to Heaven, in the path of righteousness!

Thank you so much for posting this! I performed this piece by Salli Terri with the Cal. State Fullerton, University Singers in 1975. Ms. Terri lived nearby and coached us on how to perform the piece by sharing her personal experiences of living with some elderly Shaker women. It brings back some wonderful memories, especially of the incredible singer/arranger, Salli Terri.

I was researching the whole Shaker thing and the life of Ann Lee before seeing this. And it makes sense now. If these are all completely lifelong celibate but vital intelligent men and women you put them in the same room with one another facing each other singing and moving they're going to feel something the transformation of that sexual energy that's natural to all human beings into song and dance and transcendent thoughts they're going to be having Kundalini they're going to be having mystical experiences. Good times.

I’m from Shaker Heights, Ohio…. We are a city founded by Shakers and learn about them in school.

Love the bell calling to Worship...reminds me of the bell at the Abbey calling believers to Mass so sweet how awesome the worship is! I wanna be a Shaker

@philaypeephilippotter6532

4 жыл бұрын

The downside is _no_ sex - but their songs are joyous!

Simple life of mindfulness

Let us all remember this is a theatrical performance by the museum and is to give one the idea of what Shaker worship was like…..

@patrickmcinerney9491

3 ай бұрын

How do you think it differed?

@jasonsmith7416

3 ай бұрын

@@patrickmcinerney9491 well - you can go worship with the shaker community every Sunday - so that’s a great place to start. Alllbeit - the form of worship has changed over the years which really has more to do with the physical capacity of the members as they aged. Sung Shaker music in its received forms tends to lack musically in the traditional sense - there was no perfect harmony etc. Again, there was a time when they did adhere to a more structured dance - but has continued to changed with the requirements of the community. The short answer - this is a lovely presentation.

I came here after hearing indie band Magnetic Fields' version of a shaker song. Never heard about them before. Very fascinating and interesting approach to faith.

@tylerdrown

Жыл бұрын

thank you for turning me on to the Magnetic Field's last album, I love 69 Love Songs but hadn't listened to their more recent catalog until I happened upon your comment.

@vidarbonsak7855

Жыл бұрын

@@tylerdrownMagnetic Fields' album 'Quickies' is in my opinion their best since they made what is my number one favorite album of all time '69 Love Songs'. And they got to be the first band ever to make a song about Shakerism.

Thank you for keeping this history known. I sang "Simple Gifts" much slower than demonstrated here with my high school aapella choir 'back in the day".

@donnar.phillips6795

7 жыл бұрын

Hi Karen, I'm glad that you enjoyed this presentation. The song "Simple Gifts" was written by the Shakers for dancing. In some Shaker manuscripts the song is not given a title. Instead it has a heading that says "quick dance" indicating that the tempo of the song was upbeat. Thanks to Composer, Aaron Copeland's slow setting of the song in his orchestral work, "Appalachian Spring", most arrangers have followed suit and used a slower tempo. In "A Shaker Worship Service" composer, Salli Terri, chooses to quicken the tempo as originally intended to suit the dance choreography.

@jasonsmith7416

3 ай бұрын

Yup - in short even faster. Copelands interpretation had an sig effect on shaker history- popular but not entirely accurate as the song was changed into something with no liturgical use.

This is such a valuable resource. Thank you!

Thank you for the upload. I find the movements born in the context of the radical reformation, like Shakers and their "cousins" Quakers, really fascinating. While I've watched records of contemporary worship in Sabbathday Lake, this reinterpretation is maybe the thing that looks more like what weas depicted in the old engravings and I can see a vague resemblance to the modern apostolic movements in which assemblies people also dance but they are accompanied by music played with musical instruments and not acapella. At the end, correlation between worshhip and music can be found in many cultures, spacing from king David to derviches tourneur.

Such beautiful customs from such beautiful people ❤

Similar to the churches of Christ. Singing parts, but no instruments. It's really beautiful.

Thank You. Very Informative.

Donna Phillips, you have done a real service with this video.

Wonderful. History before our very eyes.

Interesting. They sound great!

As a Shaker enthusiast, a singer, and a movement professional who practices contemplative movement including shaking, I do wish this was more emotionally honest and that the singing wasn't so classically affected.

@jasonsmith7416

3 ай бұрын

It was hard for me as well - but remember it’s just a museum presentation - not the real thing.

They were lovely people

Amazing.

I had a dream that their fellowship was similar without the entry singing, the elder spoke first then praise to God began.

@donnar.phillips6795

5 жыл бұрын

The Shakers in Kentucky, for a period of time, would march to the meeting house, lined up in ranks, singing all the way. The Shakers residing in the New England states did not participate in this practice. This dramatization tries to capture the spirit of the Kentucky Shakers marching and singing from their dwelling homes, coming from North, South, East, and West, converging upon the meeting house in song. In actuality, the Kentucky Shakers would fall silent once they arrived at the meeting house and sit in silence for a while waiting for the Spirit of God to move.

@gaymichaelis7581

2 жыл бұрын

Well, Donna, and others… I got from one of the videos that Ann Lee started studying or worshiping with Quakers! And this is the form of worship that the Quakers have!!!

Hi Mathew, I’m glad you enjoyed this presentation. I too am fascinated by many expressions of worship.

@keshiamcfarland7120

4 жыл бұрын

Grace and peace Donna. Thank you for sharing this! I love the unity and peace depicted in this film. The singing & choreography was superb! God bless you!

I'd love to see this recreated in a movie.

@mr.fahrenheit7009

7 ай бұрын

Based pfp

thanks and ignore the negative comments. a good cross section of shaker worship and "gifts" you have done. Obviously little is really known about the modes of worship of these people other what was given to us by historical record. Writing about it is one thing, seeing it is another. Thanks for producing this.

@jasonsmith7416

3 ай бұрын

A lot is known - the dancing didn’t stop because of a change in theology - everyone got too old. Although again different today - Sunday services are always open to the public. Stop next time you find yourself in Maine on a Sunday - they will make you freely welcome just as they have for almost 250 years.

I was in that performance

@donnar.phillips6795

5 жыл бұрын

Nanci Wach, There is a reunion group on Facebook called UK Choristers, Shakertown Memories. We had a reunion concert at UK a few years ago, and a singing group called the Sarah Holroyd Singers continues to sing Shaker music together as a result. If you are interested in being added to the FACEBOOK page friend me and I’ll ask the administrator to add you. Several people from this original performance are part of the group.

@JavierBonillaC

5 жыл бұрын

Well thank you from my heart; it was beautiful.

This was quite interesting to watch.

its very interesting to see that there are great parallels to Oshos dynamic meditation. similar spirit in an other cultural context

It’s amazing to think that this community thrives without sex although the Method of Prayer is almost like dancing with a lot of interaction with the opposite sex.

@barryrhoads8716

2 жыл бұрын

Doomed from the outset by thoughts of celibacy and complete separation of men and women. Socialism at its finest and still doomed to failure if nothing else through commerce.

@Xorobabel

2 жыл бұрын

They no longer exist.

@annaselbdritt7916

2 жыл бұрын

@@barryrhoads8716 that's not what socialism means. Please, I beg you, please just google the definition of socialism.

@thepapistyourmotherwarnedy752

2 жыл бұрын

@@Xorobabel not quite, there’s still a community hanging on called Sabathday Lake

@rowanhunter2157

2 жыл бұрын

@@thepapistyourmotherwarnedy752 Yes, Sabbathday Lake hangs on, there are only 3 brothers now.

Brilliant.

Beautiful! I do have a question. I am a novice but from the little that I have read I was not expecting the music to be so highly arranged but to have much simpler unison melodies which, according to the very few sources that I have read, was the norm in Shaker worship. I had hoped to hear that when I clicked on this video For clarity sake is this singing in the video a modern arrangement or am I mistaken about the use of harmonies and different parts?

@donnar.phillips6795

7 жыл бұрын

You are correct. The Shakers sang in unison for most of their history. They did eventually adapt the use of harmony and published a couple of 4 part hymnals. This is a modern interpretation of Shaker worship. It is not meant to be a reenactment. It is highly stylized.

Shakers and Quakers were called so because of their reactions to the Holy Spirit in them during worship and other times.

According to Erik Reese in his book “Utopia Drive”, many Shakers were women because they were widows and abused wives with nowhere to go. Orphans of cholera outbreaks were brought there too.

@gaymichaelis7581

2 жыл бұрын

Very good point! Makes sense! Thank you!

is there a non choreographed spontaneous shaking of the spirit example anywhere?

@donnar.phillips6795

8 жыл бұрын

Unfortunately, by the time video was invented, the Shakers were not doing a lot of Shaking anymore. They did continue to use sacred movement in the form of choreographed gestures while singing. The only recorded example of this that I know about is a video documentary that shows Sister Mildred Barker singing and demonstrating movement. I have forgotten the name of the documentary but if you google Sister Mildred's name it should pop up. Thanks for watching.

@wonderfulyintoxicatinggaur9656

8 жыл бұрын

Ok that what happens to many religious movements which start with the spirit then downgrade to the dryer ritualistic premeditated form. Thanks for responding

@donnar.phillips6795

7 жыл бұрын

Having been brought up in a Pentecostal church and having moved joined a Presbyterian church as an adult, I have a different viewpoint on why charismatic movements eventually become more subdued with time. There is something in human nature that needs to impose order in the world. Faith communities are no different. We are energized by the ecstaticism but eventually the need to organize necessitates a change in the level of exuberance exercised during worship. For me personally, as I matured in faith, I found a sense of God's presence in joyous celebratory worship, in quiet reflective worship, and in silence. God is present when I'm clapping my hands and when I'm sitting still. The living waters are flowing in whatever type of worship service I find myself and I can find something there to fill my soul.

@maninthewilderness5795

5 жыл бұрын

I think enforced celibacy and the putting asunder of Husband and Wives when they joined the Shaker Sect probably doomed them. Mother Ann (the founder of the sect) crossed a Spiritual line when she forbade marriage. Mother Ann Lee "went beyond what was written" (1 Cor. 4:6) to make up and enforce extra Biblical injunctions upon her people. Hebrews 13: 4 tells us plainly that God considers "Marriage is honourable in all". The Shakers prospered for a while but like all sects that go against Scripture they eventually came to nothing. Ok I will shut up and stop preaching.

@dancingsocrates9491

4 жыл бұрын

​@@donnar.phillips6795A lot of it probably has to do with an aging group. If there are no baby Shakers or young Shakers to fill in the ranks then the energetic dancing turns into something that the group can do together.

Well I can see where the Pentecostal church gets sow of their moves, glad I am not religious myself

God so still love the whole world the Ukraine Nation military still is an so is the world.

the songs what are there names besides come to zion and simple gifts

Doest anyone know where I can get a recording of this?

@donnar.phillips6795

5 жыл бұрын

Burt Collins, This video is part of a longer Kentucky Education Television (KET) documentary. There was an album of this music produced by the University of Kentucky Choristers but it is in LP form. The LP can be found on Amazon by searching “A Shaker Worship Service.” The sheet Music is out of print but the copyright to it is owned by Warner Brothers.

this is amazingly weird and hypnotic..

Can we get these lyrics??

It's crazy that a lot of other videos make Shakers out to be the worst or weirdest denomination, and this video says otherwise because I thought it was beautiful People like to stim when they are anxious, so maybe Ann Lee was on to something and "shaking your sins away" was an 18th century way of doing that

who is came from MORE TO READ 1 book?

@rosalie5123

3 ай бұрын

Meeeee 😂😂😂😂

This is "staged"? Or am I watching REAL Shakers perform.. either way, it's beautiful.

@sunnydae9748

8 жыл бұрын

this is staged.

@donnar.phillips6795

8 жыл бұрын

Yes, this is a staged performance. While the last 3 living Shakers reside in Sabathday Lake Village in Main, the last Shaker to live at Shaker Village of Pleasant Hill where this work was performed died in 1923. Thank you for watching.

C&C Music Factory.

I find it very interesting, on the other hand, a little spooky actually. Especially with the screaming and wild behavior in the worship, very similar to some evangelical Christians today, like the Toronto blessing movement.

@gaymichaelis7581

2 жыл бұрын

I totally agree with you some, Aqua Juwel! Does that not drive the spirit away perhaps?!

who are the composers? arrangers? why are they not credited?

Not surprising there’s only two known shakers alive is this is their worship style

12:10

Didn’t they get the name SHAKERS from their style of dancing?

It's sad that Shaker Worship and other traditions have died out. Meanwhile, the white fella in Chechnya have held their Sufi Zikr worship in the face of persecution.

Are they descendants of the anabaptists ?

@williamrushby2140

6 жыл бұрын

The Shakers were not direct descendants of the early Anabaptists but their faith falls within the same radical Protestant tradition. More obvious ancestors of the Shakers were the "French Prophets," rooted in the Huguenot movement known as the Camisards: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camisard

@bhilbert11

6 жыл бұрын

They are a subgroup of shaking Quakers that accepted Mother Ann Lee as a prophet. Ken Burns has an amazing documentary about the Shakers which goes into their history.

@donnar.phillips6795

5 жыл бұрын

The Shakers were part of a larger Protestant movement but that is their only relationship to the Anabaptists. They were not an offshoot of the Quakers either although their founders, James & Jane Wardley worshiped with the Quakers for a time. Because if this association, the members of The Wardley Society were nicknamed the Shaking Quakers, a derogatory name meant to poke fun at their ecstatic form of worship. Both the Shakers & Quakers came from England and formed out of a Protestant movement away from the Anglican Church (Church of England).

The Historical ignorance of some people commenting here is staggering. Anyone with any kind of Education knows that the Shakers died out generations ago.

@donnar.phillips6795

5 жыл бұрын

Yes this is a staged performance as mentioned in previous discussions; however, there are still two living Shakers who live in a community called Sabbath Day Lake in Maine.

@patrickobrien8060

3 жыл бұрын

@@donnar.phillips6795 There are three as of Feb., 2021

Misleading. It's not a Shaker worship service but a theatrical performance. Fine as that, but NOT a documentary and does not portray either original or present shaker worship

Sad that men today don't have the desire to live a single chaste celibate life.

@dunge0

3 жыл бұрын

Well, babies are not brought by storks, are they? It's not sad, it's natural and healthy to choose to live family life and have sex with your wife. There are still many men who choose to live single and celibacy and if it's their choice, it's alright. However, we can't expect all people to live this way, humanity would not last for long 😉

13:48 if that happened at church I would want to leave.

@rockycomet4587

4 жыл бұрын

Yeah, it would be fun to go into convulsions during church.

@sf7truthseeker630

4 жыл бұрын

If that ever happened at church I would have stayed. ✝️

hahahaha really funny, I don't be surprised they have to left England for that LOL

Good acting...

Its sad to see such beauty and at the same time to go against the very first commandment "be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth" - false doctrine is corrupting and brought about the Shakers demise! What in the world were they thinking? God created sex and afterwards said it was all good! We do not need to improve on His design. Sad indeed! Aberrations will not withstand the test of time not matter how intriguing.

So you hear my words not.

This is a performance by chosen people. I wouldn't call it a church worshipping event open to all.

Lovely but I wish to see real shakers dance, no singing and choreography.

This is nice, but highly inaccurate. The Shakers sing only in unison, never parts or harmony as they believed concentration on that distracted from concentration on the worship itself.

@donnar.phillips6795

5 жыл бұрын

Hi Joan, This is an artistic dramatization that is not meant to be a re-enactment. The songs themselves, the choreography, and the elements of worship presented in this work were painstakingly researched and compiled into this dance/choral presentation. I hope you enjoyed the presentation. It is part of a longer documentary on the Shakers that can be found on Kentucky Education Television (K. E. T.).

@donnar.phillips6795

5 жыл бұрын

I forgot to mention that by the mid 1800’s, the Shakers began to add harmony to their music and published 2 hymnals in four part harmony.

@joanhaines2727

5 жыл бұрын

Interesting, but the comment regarding harmony was based on information directly given by the Shaker Village music program docent.

@donnar.phillips6795

5 жыл бұрын

Joan Haines, I understand. I was the music programs coordinator at Shaker Village of Pleasant Hill in Kentucky for 15 years. During that 15 years, I thoroughly researched the shakers and their worship practices. I recognize that there is still much to learn about that. The inaccuracies in Shaker interpretation is due in part to the internet and in part because information is passed down orally without the proper research being done or without fact checking. By the mid-1800s, shaker songs written with harmony parts can be found in Shaker song book and have no manuscripts. The latter shakers published to have nails that are completely and four part harmony. In addition, we know that the shakers did not continue dancing either. kzread.info/dash/bejne/l6mErNyImsnMoNY.html

@donnar.phillips6795

5 жыл бұрын

Just like any society, she could stay change and evolve. In the previous email, I attached a KZread link of sister Mildred Parker one of the shakers is invited to the 20th century demonstrating secret movement. Although the shakers did not continue to dance, they did continue acting out their songs. I hope this is helpful.

Pretending at its finest

@KnutNukem

6 жыл бұрын

What are they pretending?

@donnar.phillips6795

5 жыл бұрын

That’s pretty much the definition of performance.

Creepy af.

@sahulianhooligan7046

3 жыл бұрын

Haha

??? Mental???

Lovely, but unfortunately just seems fake.

If this is an accurate rendition of their religious services they seem very spiritual and pious until they go into fits of madness. Reading about beliefs it’s clear they aren’t Christians. They seem like spiritualists.

@dankeith6522

3 жыл бұрын

I thought that anyone who believes in the christ, and especially those who await his second arrival(cuz they think he died, came back, and ascended) is, by definition a christian. I believe it is called a sect, much like catholics, methodists, lutherans, and the like. Those who worship or await christ. And they thought of themselves as christians. So, are you the be all of what is christian? Or just not my christian so it's not? Cus I'm not christian, he sounds like a cool dude, like what he said, but I notice alot of christians can't even agree that they worship the same guy. So confusing. Then who would go to heaven?

@gaymichaelis7581

2 жыл бұрын

Dan, point well taken here!!! I think they were very much Christians! I am a Christian, and I would say they definitely are/were!!! Also!

BEAUTIFUL. :-)

Thank you. That was VERY CLEANSING.+++