John, like many of your listeners I am a nevermo who has been absolutely fascinated by the stories you highlight. Over the past year I have listened to hundreds of hours of Mormon stories and have cried hearing the pain some have gone through, felt angry at the institutional flaws within the church, but also been awed at the beauty people have found within the church and in life after it. In this interview it was amazing to hear two well intentioned people with genuine, deep seated disagreements able to communicate with civility and empathy for one another. It honestly makes me feel better about the world in these divided times. Thank you for all of the hard work you do, John. Your passion is infectious and makes me want to be a better person to also contribute to the world in the way that I can.

@mormonstories

Жыл бұрын

🙏❤️

@r3b3lutions

Жыл бұрын

@@randyjordan5521 John's a busy guy but I just came across the answer to you question in my listening. The discussion begins around @2:33:50 and Patrick says he does not believe polygamy is a divinely revealed principle @2:35:09.

@r3b3lutions

Жыл бұрын

Edit. He's not committed to it as a hard truth.

A testament to the good work John is doing can be seen in interviews like this. He's respectful, curious, and open to correction. An equal testament to Patrick is his willingness to have a conversation. This is how bridges are built. The church is still untrue - but goodness is can be found in our attempts at truthful dialogue.

@braedengates3123

Жыл бұрын

Well said and I completely agree. It’s so difficult to have dialogue like this.

I so very much appreciate Professor Mason for coming onto Mormon Stories and sharing his perspective. While I do not share his conclusions regarding remaining in the Church--he is very forthright and honest about the issues the Church is facing. With all sincerity, I hope that the Church can one day mirror the ideal of what he expressed it can and should be.

@JT0007

Жыл бұрын

He’s a cult follower. I mean, he’s Mormon.

@kaymangum1323

Жыл бұрын

0p

Dr. Mason…….please do not have a “vulnerability hangover”! Thank you so much for being so incredibly authentic. Fantastic!

What a GREAT conversation of two amazing men who respect each other and understand each other. I love how John was genuinely touched by different prospectives Patrick explained to him. Loved every moment.

Mason is brilliant. We've gotten so far away from civil discourse. We're all human beings like he said It's important to be able to talk to each other about our differences. listen to this whole thing,but I'm very curious to know how he can stay and what his ideas are about why he does.He is sensitive, articulate and knowledgeable! I'm crying., He explained the basis of Non- Orthodox religion!

@johnhorner1969

Жыл бұрын

Some people just love the church so much and/or want it to be true so bad that they’ll cover together the most insane mental framework to make it all fit. They will use tactics to solve one problem that they ignore on another. This is basically lds apologetics in a nutshell. There is such a lack of consistency in how they apply logic that it is laughable. Which happens bc they need it to be true. If your livelihood and whole world revolves around the church being true, you’ll find a way to make it true.

@rivkahmiri513

Жыл бұрын

@John Homer I don't believe he's covering he's talking about what he wishes would happen and what he believes in his heart. I've listened to the whole thing now. I don't think he's disingenuous. he's very smart and a very critical thinker which is what needs to be in this world even about religion. I'm Jewish so I have no claim in this fight. I think he explains Orthodox religion very well butI'm not an orthodox Jew either.

Credit to Patrick for coming on and answering all of the tough questions. It has been a really good and edifying discussion, John has done well asking the tough questions but in a way that is respectful and not divisive. I admire Patrick's faith, but his integrity to not always try to defend the church and Joseph Smith when he thinks they're in the wrong such as with past racist teachings, the church's wealth or sexual abuse! I personally think we need more people like Patrick, who shows empathy and understanding and is willing to have a dialogue! He comes across genuine and sincere in his faith in Christ. We need more faithful voices to come onto the podcast to bridge gaps

Ooh the polygamy question was intense! I have a big problem with God using sexual abusers as prophets. This conflicts with so many LDS teachings of "obedience bringing forth blessings". We don't know for sure if Joseph Smith was a sexual predator, but it's so icky that we are attempting to justify Joseph if it's true! Thanks Patrick for coming on. This discussion is important.

@randinboise

Жыл бұрын

And by their fruits ye shall know them

@lilatueller

Жыл бұрын

@@randinboise exactly what I was going to say

I’m a hardened atheist and almost didn’t click to watch Patrick’s interview because I love listening to faith journey/transition/exmo stuff but I’m so glad I did. What a good-faith conversation, the world need more of these.

What a fascinating human being. To be an active, fully engaged Mormon, and to be 100% aware and okay with garbage being mixed all through your scriptures and things your modern church leaders are saying without any indication of when it's from God or not, and for "God works in strange ways" to be your explanation for why you stay... Fascinating. I'm glad he acknowledged that some would say that's an awfully weird way for a God to act. That's me for dang sure!

@JT0007

Жыл бұрын

You mean for DAMN sure. Don’t limit the words your mouth makes because a book 200 years old says swearing is bad.

These past two episodes with Patrick have been absolutely incredible. I have been taught, fed and moved beyond anything I could have imagined. I look forward to the next episode where he is able to ask John and Margi questions. What an uplifting, enlightening and tender expression of belief and experience. Thanks to all.

These episodes with Patrick Mason are absolutely gold and are emblematic of why Mormon Stories (real stories from real people… faithful to the LDS church or not) is so influential. Well done folks!

There is a class at LDS Business College that thought me a lot of these things and I was shocked. It is called Foundations of the Restoration and it is a cornerstone class. I believe it is still being taught at Ensign college. That was the first time EVER I learned about Joseph Smith marrying women that was already married with other brothers and also marrying mother and daughters, and marrying minors, and marrying some for life and some just for eternity, etc… I took this class back in 2015. I was an international student and I have NEVER heard anything like this in Brasil. I also remember learning in this religious class about The Mountain Meadows Massacre and the discrepancies in the different accounts of the first vision. Once again, I was shocked to learn all of that. I wish more people could have access to it, specially in Brasil (the country that I came from). 🇧🇷 Thank you for this interview. I have learned much more.

I’ve had no direct involvement with the LDS church, but I love Mormon stories, and I think it’s good to hear from someone who is still a part of the church, and who has studied its history so deeply. I thoroughly enjoyed part 1 and am looking forward to the subsequent episodes.

At last an opening for our faithful family thinking members to approach if they care about their grandchildrens future. Thank you John and Margi. And you Patrick. 🙏☺️💜🇿🇦🌟

This is the kind of conversation should be normal and regular and also happening in universities, but unfortunately this discourse doesn’t happen commonly. So thank you John, Margie, and Patrick for this awesome civil conversation!

Patrick Mason is a rock star in my opinion for providing great clarity of the differences between the academic study of religions and specifically Mormonism, vs. the arena of Apologetics vs. religious examining podcasts, such as Mormon Stories. He carefully clarified the motivations behind each specific discipline and acknowledged the differences. I so appreciated in his introductory comments that he believed that Christ was about reaching out near and far without the boundaries that man is so skilled in building and living within as a protective mechanism. Prof Mason was clearly open to a solid dialog with John D and readily answered John’s questions with great integrity. Thanks to both for a very interesting series of discussion! I personally noted that Margi had a very calming effect on John all the way throughout! Kudos to Margi!! ❣️

@mills3026

Жыл бұрын

I think this is the first time I’ve seen margi cohost (outside of the series she leads) and I have to say it should have been the two of them all along. They work so well together and she has intelligent, thoughtful questions and insights.

As someone who’s left Mormonism , I have identified and empathised with so many interviewees, but I have so much respect for these set of interviews too. Professor Mason you are incredibly well educated, thoughtful, honest and calm through some times where others have chosen aggression or switched off from listening. I love your perspective on transparency! So glad I’ve spent the time hearing you 👍 this is how these conversations need to move, with respect and care on both sides and this is the reason so many of us love Mormon stories, it comes from a place of love and warmth. 💗

Thank you for a very civil and supportive discussion! Hard topics in hard emotional spaces, but this was great! Thank you, Patrick, John, and Margi!

I really appreciated Patrick Mason's perspective on problems with the church, why he remains a believer despite the many problems, and his desire for the church to do better and be more Christ-like.

Mason is an example of civil discussion. Credit to the host for having him on. The way that Mason keeps the conversation peaceful while still speaking his points is just amazing. I hope one day treat my peers with the same respect as the people in this video.

Thank you so much for a beautiful conversation. I am wowed by Dr. Mason's answers and his ability to look outside the framework box of fundamental church teachings.

Well, he's changed my opinion after this episode. I wasn't feeling so warmly about Patrick after the first episode, but I do believe he's genuine and honest. I have some of the same criticisms as with anybody in regards to his apologetic arguments, but he seems like an honestly good guy, and anybody like that is ok in my book.

@OKbeingdifferent

Жыл бұрын

I just heard excuses and side stepping. Using his own chosen 'brand' of mormonism to gloss over the bits that John (rightly) takes wider issue with. I don't think he really answered the difficult questions, he just used the cover all statement that it's not the church he believes he's in. I'd say it's a cop out to pick and choose the flowery fun stuff and just ignore the dirty stuff. In my opinion he is in a privileged position, he's been allowed to openly pick and choose the church doctrine that he feels are safe and fit him and discard the more dangerous topics, now how many every day Mormons get to do that? John said something in this interview that stuck with me - the fact the church publishers allowed him to publish his book through them....yeah like that has no influence on his answers here. Cmon. This guy is the mormon Tom cruise. 😊

I’m really enjoying this guy. He’s very aware, intelligent, even brilliant. What I can’t conceive of is his inability to see how illogical his conclusions are. He switches to magical thinking in an instant. The catalyst theory is such a massive stretch- it’s insulting to his intellect to go there in my opinion. Kudos to him for coming on! He handled it beautifully, given the barrage of questions he got hit with. At least he is aware of the problems and didn’t gloss over them. Mostly. Great conversations! Margi is amazing too! Love her❤️

@sgee-vc1hz

Жыл бұрын

Excellent observations and recap Lila. Like when he doesn't have a theory which can account for all the concepts and scripture in the Book of Mormon, by process of elimination it must have come directly from God.

@sgee-vc1hz

Жыл бұрын

One other thing, Mr. Mason seems oblivious to the fact that he occupies a very precarious position. The odds that he will get crosswise with the brethren at some point are extremely high given his penchant for speaking openly about these sensitive issues.

John I loved this episode and I’m a full blown atheist. I disagree with a lot of what he said but I love the idea of the exmormon space not being an echo chamber. Patrick seems very cool and genuine. THIS IS GOOD STUFF.

Powerful emotionally touching moments, Patrick shared was an EPIC end to his amazing interview. This was one of theee best interviews.

TBM or not, you have to agree that Patrick’s heart is in the right place. Thank you for coming onto Mormon Stories, Patrick.

John Dehlin, I am a believing LDS soul, and I enjoy your discussions because you have a real interest in people and how they think. Your interest in their stories, problems, and challenges is sincere. Jesus told us to bear each other’s burdens and it is important that we do so.

@mrlds3202

11 ай бұрын

@@randyjordan5521 How do you feel about living in a country that killed 1,000,000 Iraqis in the last 2 decades?

@mrlds3202

11 ай бұрын

@@randyjordan5521 Well, you're delusional, and also don't understand logic very well, so in my opinion the argument was already won and my point was proven, thanks!

Thank you so much Patrick Mason for doing this! Thank you John and Margi! This is an amazing set of episodes so far. Patrick said so much in between the lines at the point in the interview when things got emotional. I am a white male born in the Covenant and have stepped away from the faith because of the hurt it causes others.

I'm a post-mormon, but loving this series.....thanks Mormon Stories and Patrick Mason for your insight!

I just can’t thank you all enough for making this interview possible. I am an active member of the church but I also have many questions that unfortunately the church avoids answering. I am glad we were able to ask and to talk about theses things in a respectful way and still learn from one another. Thank you Professor Mason and John. Thank you for your time and services.

@charlesmendeley9823

Жыл бұрын

I recommend watching the interview with anthropologist Dr Thomas Murphy, especially the one about the Neophyte model (1647), if you cannot watch all three recent episodes 1645-1647.

seeing this podcast is a breath of fresh air John. I love so much the way you and Patrick and Margi talk with one another with such profound love and acceptance and bring such beauty to a conversation that so readily turns ugly for many. I love this exchange and will be coming back to watch it more in the future as well. I strive daily to become the type of man and member of the church Patrick is and want to never find myself shying away from truly important discussions.

Loooove Margi's questions! Soul searching questions. Love your questions too John! Thanks you both for all you do! You're both are awesome human beings.

My respect for both of these men just went through the roof. People who disagree so profoundly having a respectful conversation.

Thank you John, Margi, and Patrick for this conversation. I think it is so valuable to hear people who fundamentally disagree have a civil and respectful conversation about why they think/feel the way they do. I think people across the spectrum of belief need to see each other as humans.

This is my new favorite episode! Patrick's vulnerability, humanity, sincerity, openness and knowledge are all on display. This was a fantastic example of believers and non-believers respectfully and lovingly discussing differences. Such a healing episode. I have learned much and have a lot to think about as the episode wraps. An absolute triumph of love & respect!

Fantastic series. John & OSF team this was SO GOOD!! I’m a never-mo who has listened to Mormon Stories since 2020 weekly and this was fascinating & a much needed episode. I was seriously on the edge of my seat the entire time hearing what Mason had to say to your questions John, and was excited to see what questions you would ask. This was seriously a treat

When Patrick was emotional while talking about the pain and problems, it was extremely touching! You can feel his sincere desire for the church to improve and make amends for all the mistakes and harm. Thanks Patrick for discussing these important issues!

@gregbates4517

Жыл бұрын

The Church can't make amends. Too late for many people and the harm continues and people like Patrick are complicit in the harm.

@heidiwoodbury65

Жыл бұрын

I agree with you. It’s just nice to see a member as knowledgeable as him empathizing and feeling the deep harm. He recognizes his privilege and biases AND he’s willing to talk openly which is a step in the right direction in my opinion.

This interview was a true balm to my soul. I just loved this interview and am so grateful for Dr. Mason taking the time and risk to come on Mormon Stories. Put me down as picking up a copy of Restoration.

I thought Mr Mason would have some more insights and answers concerning doctrine, history, prophets and staying in the church. But at the end of the day it's kind of the some 'ol same 'ol ---- the hoops he has to jump through to make it work remains a bridge to far for me.

This was great. Really enjoyed this conversation.

This was a very respectful and informative dialogue. We need more of this. Thanks.

Patrick Mason is awesome for being on the show.

If only the LDS church as a whole could be more like Patrick Mason and Dr. Julie Hanks! I would have been able to stay... I can't put the toothpaste back into the tube now, but I'm always happy to see healthier attitudes growing within the church. The people staying in need that!

I applaud mason for coming on👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼

I felt what I will call Maven's justified indignation TO THE CORE in her question read by John (Patrick starts to reply to it at approximately 2:37:58). Thank you Maven for posing it. Your comments and questions are always on point. Your presence in the Mormon podcasting sphere is a huge asset.

This is an awesome humble, honest, and sincere man. Thank you so much for all of your answers, comments, and questions. Thank u for having the courage to come onto this podcast and help me (I can only speak for me) have a softer heart toward LDS people. I know there are good people in your church, u being one of them, but I have been a little hard hearted toward your church and some of the people. I feel a real love for you. Thank you.

I loved Margie’s question, it gets at the heart of things. Great work!

Best interview I’ve ever seen on this podcast. Really love the dialogue between the three of you. I wish more Mormons could be as thoughtful and loving as Patrick Mason. I admire the courage he has shown by coming on the show to discuss these really serious issues.

Great interview, very appreciated to Prof. Mason for being honest and open to coming on as well as being empathetic to all sides. Major, Major props! Personally, I found his responses more like "I believe because I choose to believe", knowing everything he knows. And to be clear, I respect that very much and there is nothing wrong with that. I, however, can't do that and that's my personal decision. Lots of members and apologists completely deny any of these issues all together and will not discuss at all or make some argument that is dismissive. Everybody should know the issues and get to decide themselves. That's it.... This means the church and it's leaders being honest and not withholding information.

I love this discussion! I truly appreciated Patrick's take on God and human imperfection.

Listening to this interview, and then listening it to again, makes me want to be a much better member than I am!

At 2:43:17. Patrick admits JS slept with a lot of these plural wives. You rarely hear any apologist admit this as fact.

I really appreciate you two doing this, and my honest opinion is that this is excactly what is needed more. Instead of talking to no critics and claiming that no apology or excuse will ever come from the church, this, to me, is the most Christlike apporach. I always felt that true leadership does not just mean to only excercise authority with love, gentlenss, kindness and meekness, but also with a humble heart that welcomes every question, every concern, every reality of individual people, and talk about it in a spirit of love. Surely there would be some members that would be offended if the leadership would act that way, but if so, than only for quesionable reasons.. I can see absolutely no reason why a honest, sincere, humble and respectfull conversion, just as you two had, could in any way be wrong.. rather the opposite, it would open the doors to healing on so many levels. To me the podcast I loved the very most so far.

I greatly appreciate Patrick’s willingness to come on Mormon Stories Podcast. I learned a lot from his experience. I was excited to hear how someone so knowledgeable in the Mormon church and its history can stay a faithful Mormon. While I appreciate Patrick seeing both sides of all issues and questions presented to him, I was disappointed during “lighting rounds” toward the end. How Patrick makes sense of polyandry and polygamy to me sounded like cherry picking. This gives me a sense of “he’s trying too hard”. The true Church of Christ on the Earth shouldn’t have these issues, especially when it claims it was directly revealed from God to His prophet, Joseph Smith. At best, Jospeh Smith was a prophet of God who was lead astray pretty early on in his ministry.

I think a lot of members are realizing that the claims aren’t true but they like the church and how it helps them live their lives.

What a brilliant display of coming together with peaceful, thoughtful respect for a discussion about items that are sometimes difficult and contentious. I am so impressed with Dr. Patrick Mason. Thank you.

Great model of having a discussion from opposing viewpoints. Thank you!

Very intriguing. I took the class he teaches from USU ten years ago. It seems this guest's perspective would deepen your opinion no matter what side of the line you are on.

I thought I had many friends as a Mormon. When I decided no longer to attend the church, I discovered that I had one actual friend. The rest were just fellow-travellers. I never said a single word against the church or tried in any way to influence anybody, but I was shunned. Patrick, who strikes me as particularly humble in the way he speaks, may actually have many genuine friends who just happen to be Mormon. That would be a gift. I think Patrick nails it in his response to you, that he is not a fundamentalist when it comes to scripture. We all pick and choose and it’s naive to assume you have to take the whole package or nothing. I was of his view and have just as many university degrees as he has if not more. I never had a spiritual crisis in the sense you and many of your listeners have had. I left the church because, as applicable to me, it failed in its central premise, that it was the fulfilment of man’s quest for happiness. The day I realised that it wasn’t that for me was the day I quit.

Wow. So many wows in this episode. Patrick is kind, respectful and eloquent. Kudos to him for not only being brave enough to come on Mormon Stories, but for sharing his beliefs unapologetically and at the same time being able to understand why so many of us feel the way we do and why we left, without judgment or condemnation. Both sides were very civil and respectful. I hope the church is listening and takes what he said to heart. I still have a hard time understanding how anyone who knows as much as he does can reconcile it all and stay true to the faith, but if it works for him then I'm happy for him. And thanks to John and Margi for letting him turn the tables and ask them some uncomfortable questions as well.

I have so much respect for Patrick! So honest, so thoughtful, and so dedicated. I admire and often long for his conclusions.

@kaitlynfjeldsted3842

Жыл бұрын

I literally clapped i nmy empty bedroom after his emotional statement. Such a beautiful man

@kaitlynfjeldsted3842

Жыл бұрын

I'm voting for Patrick Q Mason for prophet

At 2:27:50. Patrick is very clever how he explains translation as inspiration or revelation. He admits Joseph Smith using a top hat and seer stone with no plates in front of him is not a proper translation. He neglects to discuss how members were pointed for generations to the Urim and Thummin and breastplate (see History of the Church, volume 1). This was taught as the sole method of translation along with two scribes (Harris and Cowdery). It is only recently that the church has admitted to a top hat and seer stone theory. Scribes also included people other than Harris or Cowdery, including Emma Smith and Whitmer. See the July 1993 issue of Ensign magazine where then Elder Nelson briefly discusses this (A Treasured Testament). It is only recently that the church website talks about a top hat and seer stone along with a video in 2018.

@marcellacruser951

Жыл бұрын

He's not making any apologies for the Church's policy of lying. That's how I took it.

I think people like Dr Mason may resist long lists of LDS validity claims because they know they can’t be answered without twisting logical thinking into a pretzel of unreality or remaking the church completely into something it isn’t. Unfortunately LDS thought never seems to be able to just strip things down to the roots. It always has to add endless strata of complexity to events that aren’t really that complex. And it creates a grand exemption for the church as far as reason is concerned where it applies heavy scrutiny to other ideologies. Simple yes or no questions simply refute the history so they must be avoided. It’s such a heavy weight to carry.

So basically if we change everything we have learned in our life in the church and completely change the meaning of words, it all makes sense! Got it.

@rodneyhuckaby8716

Жыл бұрын

That’s what I got out of Patrick’s thoughts also. That is impossible for me to do. I simply cannot be a Mormon like that. Patrick is not an apologist for the church at all, he disagrees with a lot of the things the Church does, yet for some reason he still believes in it.

@charlesmendeley9823

Жыл бұрын

Well, in 2:27:00 he acknowledged that Joseph didn't translate the Book of Mormon in the conventional sense, but basically that he wrote an inspired novel, or a "Midrash", I e. an interpretation of the Bible. But is it plausible that any of Joseph's writing are more than his personal interpretation of things, including his errors with respect to the origin of Native Americans, etc.? Thomas Murphy's interpretation seems most plausible to me: Joseph Smith wrote a book to convert Native Americans to Christianity by making their history a Jewish - Christian one. Everything else is first of all not consistent with the book (e.g. his abandonment of the Trinity, the Masonic rituals, etc.) and does also not follow from the original narrative. It makes no sense to send missionaries to Europe or Africa when the book of Mormon is an origin story of Native Americans.

@eastcoastguy_0803

Жыл бұрын

@@rodneyhuckaby8716 He still believes it because it's his job. He paychecks rely on his faith in the crazy church.

@baemaxxed5389

Жыл бұрын

@@charlesmendeley9823 exactly. It was never taught to me that the Book of Mormon was anything other than a translation of the Plates. Changing the meaning of the word translation goes against everything I have known and built my testimony on.

@MrRobertkhall

Жыл бұрын

It's all really sophisticated. Only an uneducated buffoon would call a spade a spade.

"Do What Is Right Let The Consequence Follow..." ABSOLUTELY!!! Own the reality and let's stand up for children! YES!

I love philosophy! I found this interview and discussion very stimulating!

For those that still believe in the church, he should be the next prophet. Even though he still believe in the non sense foundation of the church (Joseph S. and the book that JS wrote), he's more Christ like than all the prophets combined. What a great soul.

Retention in the church at 0:22:00. I am working on a project now which addresses this problem. The church will often use membership numbers, but never publishes formal activity rates. The two real numbers that are important are retention rates for converts and retention rates for existing members. Activity rates are also related. The numbers have been visibly down for more than a decade. There is also a social demography issue in that members have fewer children and many members never have children. This will create visible problems in the next generation. It may have some bearing today in seeing fewer active people available to serve missions. The other problem which is the church is aware of is declining activity among youth and YSA members. If they fail to stay active, they don't serve missions. They then fail to marry in the temple. And temple marriage is a big predictor of activity in the church, especially when the couple has kids.

@amazinmaven

Жыл бұрын

I'll be interested to see what you come up with!

John's stats at 0:38:24. Pretty accurate and not surprising. YSA members are in decline as are the youth. A source in the church told me recently early return from mission rates are a concern. Many early returns are due to mental health and stress concerns experienced by missionaries. And a significant amount of youth are not interested in serving missions.

When he says that our top leaders are not theologians, he's *technically* correct. However, in light of the fact that the leaders are revered as "prophets, seers and revelators," I would argue that this makes them even higher than a trained theologian, and precisely who the members are counseled to look to for our theology.

Thanks, John for having the humilty and courage to have a good discussion with Patrick Mason.

At 2:31:17. The Golden Plates. Patrick asks did Joseph actually make them or were they a Nephite record? This is unusual to hear this much honesty from an LDS public intellectual. He also dismisses apologists who use "parallels" and says parallels are not evidence.

Patrick Mason is right in that historians cannot determine whether Jesus rose from the grave. But scholars can determine whether the Book of Mormon is an ancient record or a product of the 19th century, and scientists can examine whether the culture of the Nephites and Lamanites fits into real world history of a) Jewish culture and b) native American culture.

Very insightful and educational. Thank you all!💞

Cult like behavior? Fear of questioning authority? Blind obedience? Fear of retribution? Willing to engage in violence? Ideas set in concrete that people cannot overcome?

Ilk really made me giggle. At 2:19, I saw real vulnerability and maybe some pain, and knew that this guy is absolutely as straight with us as he can, on both what he KNOWS and what he BELIEVES personally. Should you ever read this, Dr. Mason, thank you. Sincerely.

What Patrick says will be recorded but everyone has a right to change their mind over time as they learn and grow. I'll also add that if John Dehlin decided to go back to church because he was convinced that it was the true church as it claims to be, I would not judge him or be made at him for that transition.

Margi 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼 very thought provoking, poignant questions. Much appreciated.

I, as a never-Mormon, always appreciate the emphasis on Christ and Christ-like characteristics from the still-following guests on Mormon Stories. I was raised Presbyterian and it seems in Christianity, evangelical and otherwise, and in Mormonism that Christ is lost in the cracks. If a religion wants to base themselves on Christ then they better exude those qualities, actions, and empathy of Jesus

Patrick, you have said more things than other people have been excommunicated for.

@charlesmendeley9823

Жыл бұрын

Margi had summed it up brilliantly: "maybe there is a little bit of privilege?"

@chubbuck35

Жыл бұрын

Stake President Roulette. I’m guessing Patrick cleared this with his SP before coming on to make sure (I know I would have).

@laurap3444

Жыл бұрын

To be sure.

Finally a man who speaks his truth while acknowledging the issues the Church has with everything we all struggle with. John you are right, Prof Mason is doing the job the top echelon should be doing. How did this giant corporation get so far removed from the simple loving humanity of Christs ministry on earth? I often wonder what He would make of all this

These two men model what our political or religious discussions used to be like. Thanks for reassuring me that civility is not dead.

💛💛 I'm loving this series! Thank you, Patrick. lol Spicy Maven 💜

2:45:00 he mentions about how God works through deeply flawed men. Interesting thing is, that whoever it seems God is working through, these men get an extensive amount of privilege with it. So God can chose to use any flawed human to restore his church, someone who maybe has a minor personality flaw. But instead he chose a man who used his position to coerce women and children into marriages, extort people out of money and property, become the ultimate source of authority for a church and a city, to name a few. If God is all knowing, all powerful, all loving, why not chose someone who had a little bit more of a moral compass? Why JS? Why the current prophet or even the 15? They all benefit from privilege now, being on boards of corporations, receive large stipends, and not only get admiration of members, but can even demand it. God using imperfect people to carry his work seems like a justification for corrupt behaviours and not something a loving and all knowing God should expect or chose.

@chubbuck35

Жыл бұрын

You nailed it Greg Hess. I believe Patrick is sincere but for me this approach just doesn’t work. Putting trust in a “prophet” of this nature becomes indistinguishable from just picking a random person who happens to be preaching stuff that you like and agree with. There is zero evidence that Russel Nelson is led by God in any significant way, especially compared to the thousands or millions of people who have way more Christlike love and empathy than Nelson has shown toward humankind. So at that point it’s just silly to call him any more a prophet than some other corner preacher. The only difference between these two is that one of them is actually arrogant enough to claim he’s a prophet.

@curtisreed7969

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I have often found that some of the most dynamic human beings tend to have flawed outcomes, perhaps the unique strengths they are endowed with also make them vulberable in specific ways. Who is to say that God couldn’t have chosen anyone but Joseph? Either he was or was not a prophet, but many in history have done things if true wonderment, while also falling prey to tendencies not aligned with the good they have done. I dont think anyone else could have done what he did… for all he was, it was his assignment to bring the church out of obscurity. Great comments… honorable discussion.

Big respect to prof. Mason for coming on knowing he wasn’t going to get an easy ride which should be the case when defending any view point in the public domain. What I don’t understand is why people from a pro Mormon paradigm are refusing to come on and discuss/defend their own point of view knowing the audience that listen to this podcast. What happened to being fishers of men? It’s the equivalent of sending every missionary to provo Utah! Mormon stories is literally a barrel full of lost sheep. People don’t listen because they want to hate on the LDS church. People listen because often their whole world has been turned upside down and they are trying to reconcile a fundamental shift in their reason for existence. Mormon stories allows its listeners to engage in mormon conversation that the Church are not willing to admit to or engage in which surely makes informed consent and reasoned debate impossible. A still small voice burning in the bosom is not enough anymore. Personally for me my main concerns have been with the doctrine (anthropology etc) and constant inconsistency of the core teachings of the church (first vision, polyandry etc). Not so much the church history itself which while still being a concern, sometimes people do do some dumb s**t. I want scholars to come on and say ‘let’s address peoples concerns with the BoM and Joseph Smith, book of Abraham etc.’ we want to be challenged and made to think ‘actually maybe it isn’t all made up after all.’ Defend the church’s stance on gay rights and women and the priesthood, victim shaming, excusing and protecting inexcusable behaviour. We aren’t witch hunting, we just don’t understand. So grow some balls church leaders and scholars like prof. Mason and tell us why we should trust and believe in the LDS church.

This was a great interview but it really started to unravel once John started asking the basic questions. What was his actual answer to the Tower of Babel question? So, we are to think that now some stories in the Book of Mormon are made up but we don't know which ones are and aren't? Looking for clarification. Great discussion and thanks to Patrick for coming on.

Wow! Just wow! So interesting to see how a great mind makes things work.

To pretty much every specific historical question John asks, pointing out the documented accounts (e.g., 2:20:00), Dr. Mason responds with dissembling variations of: We don't know; we weren't there...but this is what I believe... (?!) How is this the least historically justified on any scientific or academic level? He "knows" the Church is true, the "Restoration" (title of his faith-promoting, blatantly non-scientific book plugged here) is real, and Joseph Smith was a real prophet translating by revelation ... and all while categorically denying as possible any Occam's Razor logic that he might just have made it all up. Oh, and while he "knows" the Gold Plates were real as were all of Joseph's "revelations," yet he was forced to admit polygamy, polyandry, adultery, underage sex, were not... even though Joseph claimed they ALL were, thus obviously lying about at least some of them. But still, to this fully tenured, doctorate-level, professor of history, Joseph was a true prophet of God! Don't know whether to laugh or cry. All I can do is shake my head in disbelief.

As a former Catholic, I can tell a lot of how he views life is very influenced by Catholic theology and philosophy.

Great interview. Thanks to all involved.

I am an anecdote, crashed out of the Mormon church in November 2015. I'm glad Patrick ventured out into that conversation. I wonder what he'll make of the entheogen discussions. Will you get Bryce Blankenagel on John? I feel the tide is changing now. So all that was wrong with MS and your journey out of the church was the timing? 🙏💜🇿🇦 South Africa sending love.

Patrick will be the next Bill Reel. And we will welcome him. ;)

I think Patrick would benefit from street epistemology style questions.

At 2:12:21. Patrick's answer was diplomatic. He admits there are historicity issues with Genesis 1-9. He also calls it an origin myth. This is relevant due to the Sunday School lessons in 2022.

I loved and appreciated Margi's question, a true highlight in this interview. And Patrick, respect man, I honestly couldn't do as many mental gymnastics with it all and had been easier for me to have spirituality also in an agnostic way outside of any organized religion, but I believe every organization needs a person like you on it.

John, I can’t see that this guy really answered your most heart felt questions! Never heard so much ummm, ummm,ummmm! For being a true and and faithful member even I am left scratching my head! Think it was kind of pick and choose on his part! Boy I’d love to have a one on one! Have to say I was impressed with your additude and demeanor today! I do agree with his ideas that he is committed to it being the Church of Christ! Not the church of Joseph Smith or even Pres Nelson therefore let’s try to make it work better for all of us but it’s either the Church of Jesus Christ or not!That we have to come to an agreement on this point is all important ! If it has errors , which it does let’s get behind its being his church or not and let’s go for wood! If Christ had that much money he would find some way to use it to reach out and touch his children’s lives - temples necessary of course but not become a Biden and make society less functional because of handouts! Job creation, like have the homeless built homes! Teach them a trade! Lots of fun things to do! I did get a bit of better understanding of his picking scripture due to his belief if it’s Christ like or not! But again Iam a bit scattered by his various explanation! If god put a mark on Cain so others would know the neg they would get from harming him is that racist? I’ve wandered around here! What is our gender ideas? Lots of thinking ? Are we supposed to decide what a prophet is and does! Can see why your scratching your head!

I enjoyed hearing from Brother Mason. I believe he is a thoughtful and honest follower of Christ. Like many faithful members of the church, it feels like he qualifies so many of his beliefs that it seems like he doesn't really believe in what the Mormon Church is in it's present format. I wonder too, if he would think differently if he had a personal/family experience of someone being hurt by the cultest behaviors of church members. Even with that, I admire him for desiring to follow the teachings of Christ

Thanks John and Margie! ❤❤

I kept listening and after the 2 hour mark I started feeling angry about Mason's BoM and Joseph Smith apologetics. The fundamental problem must be his belief in Jesus. He believes despite all evidence. And he's a member of a hate group that ruins the lives of LGBTQ people I care about. I feel disgusted. And I'm still glad he decided to sit for the interview. Seven million Mormons still need a bridge for their exit from the church. Maybe he's it.