Loving this sudden explosion in collaborations across the KZread languages sphere! Both you and Luke make me wish I had known about linguistics back in high school, I think I definitely would've pursued it in university. Glad to see you two together!

@martpuk5608

2 жыл бұрын

It's never too late to learn! Maybe you can take a part time course or something

@WaywardSon1

2 жыл бұрын

It’s great fun but you would’ve needed a solid plan. There are plenty of jobs where meta skills like communication is important but there are very few Linguistics-centered positions outside of academia. And academia is usually very competitive. But that also depends where you are; some language-specific departments actually have a hard time recruiting PhD candidates or even master’s students.

@ghenulo

2 жыл бұрын

I did pursue it in university, but realized I was just as miserable there as I was in computer science, so I quit.

@jampuppy

Жыл бұрын

@@WaywardSon1 I did pursue linguistics in college and covet it in these moments but otherwise it collects dust in my closet.

Taking Honors Latin in high school (being a household Spanish speaker) which furthered my interest in linguistics, resulted in me finding an interest in Old English (being a native English speaker), so to witness this collaboration between two of my favorite KZread linguistic channels is a godsend

I'm a native Spanish speaker, and to comment on what you guys were talking about: -The five vowel system is surprisingly stable. Almost all varieties of Spanish without foreign influence have the same five vowels with very little variation. There is allophonic variation of the vowels depending on whether they are in closed or open syllables, but in my subjective experience, it is very minor, especially in comparison to the allophonic variation of consonants, which can be much greater. Some southern Spain varieties have open versions of the vowels before dropped "s", which gives them effectively a 10 vowel system and some Mexican varieties neutralize /a/ /e/ and /o/ between "s"s in unstressed syllables (pronouncing both "pesos," "pesas" and "peces" sort of like "pes's"). But other than that, vowels don't change dramatically. I do think they may sound slightly different from accent to accent, but nowhere near as much as the consonants, which vary tremendously. -The English /ɪ/ in isolation is almost always heard as an /i/ by native Spanish speakers, they usually have a hard time hearing the differences between the two. I would say the unstressed version of the vowel, like in "painted" may sound more like a /e/ to a Spanish speaker. It is a bit hard for me to say, because for some reason the distinction between the KIT and FLEECE vowels was one of the first non-Spanish distinctions I started to be able to hear as a child studying English, but I remember the song "We Will Rock You" was very popular when I was a child who couldn't speak English and I always sang it as "wi *wel* rak yu" before I could speak English. I don't know if it was because of the influence of the dark "l" in "will," because of the unstressed nature of the modal verb (which I doubt, since it's not unstressed in the song), or if I heard it closer to an /e/ because I had never actually seen the title written down and the spelling didn't influence my perception. Which brings me to another thing, which is that the way spelling and/or the way the English language was sort of "adapted" to Spanish pronunciation historically affects the way Spanish speakers pronounce English words, and that subsequently influences the way we actually perceive native English pronunciation, and this differs from country to country. One example is the English STRUT vowel, which Argentinians (like me) hear like the Spanish /a/, and therefore unironically, unintentionally confuse it with the TRAP vowels sound, pronouncing both "cat" and "cut" as though they were spelled "cat" in Spanish. However, Mexicans perceive the STRUT vowel like a Spanish /o/, and that's how they pronounce it, so that "cat" sounds like Spanish spelled "cat," and both "cut" and "caught" sound like Spanish spelled "cot." It is something that has often fascinated me, because I honestly believe they hear those vowels differently because of the influence of the historical Spanish adaptation of English. In fact, in Argentina, people can't hear the difference between the "sh" sound and the "j" sound in English, but CAN hear the difference between those sounds and the English "y" sound, whereas Mexicans struggle with the "j" and the "y," but to them the "sh" sounds like the "ch."

The greatest crossover event in history

Of course you’re both brilliant and I love the concentrated knowledge dump but what’s coming across to me very strongly in this conversation is how kind you both are. Lovely to see!

@simonroper9218

2 жыл бұрын

That's very sweet, thank you :) I'll pass this on to Luke!

I have, like, no time for a 2 hour talk between you two, but... I'm going to have to make some this week. I don't care what you both end up talking about. It's going to be worth it.

@abhinavchauhan7864

2 жыл бұрын

Watch in 2x speed

@soulfulserenity403

2 жыл бұрын

Listen to things whilst doing other things. I mainly only listen to things whilst cleaning, driving, gardening, organising, working etc. There's so many opportunities.

@abhinavchauhan7864

2 жыл бұрын

@@soulfulserenity403 thats even batter, do listen to stuff in 2x speed while doing some other things

@soulfulserenity403

2 жыл бұрын

@@abhinavchauhan7864 yes depending on what it is I'll listen at faster speeds that suit the video and my activity :) excellent combo options available

@thenathanhaines

2 жыл бұрын

@@soulfulserenity403 It's a good idea, and I love listening to things while I'm cleaning, folding laundry, etc. But I'm a writer, so if I have to work, nothing with speech is allowed unfortunately. :)

I stopped the video after Luke said that we have different vowels in "лет" and "здесь", repeated them three times, and felt some very slight difference for the first time in my life, struggling to understand if I just convinced myself in its existence or not. Then Simon said about allophonic ranges, and I was like "yeah, here we are". Maybe someday Russian will end up with 2 or 3 vowel phonemes, and we'll still be alright :) Both variants of the vowel in "знаю" would sound normal for a Russian ear. It's even harder for me to catch such differences in Russian than in English (which is pretty challenging as well). Probably because I know that they don't matter in modern Russian. I love Luke speaking Latin, it sounds so natural and beautiful. Thank you both for this collaboration! I haven't finished watching it yet, but I will.

@pavelfrybort9959

2 жыл бұрын

They are incredible.... these fellers

Two beautiful voices. Love hearing the British and American tones.

Two awesome guys having a conversation for two hours? I'm in.

This is a surprise to be sure, but a welcome one!

Two of my favourite channels collaborating together is something you rarely see. Truly grateful for this.

the crossover I've been waiting for!

Is there a Luke Ranieri except for Sanskrit? That's all I want for Christmas.

@SiddharthS96

2 жыл бұрын

Me too, I really wish there was! Jackson Crawford did do a video with a Sanskrit scholar once, but it wasn't too focused on the language, more to do with culture/mythology

@Smitology

2 жыл бұрын

It would be cool if Luke tried learning it, it's surprisingly similar to Latin and ancient Greek lol

@MH-ms1dg

2 жыл бұрын

Try Gabriella Burnel

@dixgun

2 ай бұрын

Also, ‘Sanskrit Sense’

I've always found fascinating the hard work behind Luke's mastery of Latin.The language really feels alive! Personally, also the sicilian dialects should be used as a proof of the absence of the germanic short "I" and "U". Fun fact: in sicilian "pear" is "piru", and the plural is "pira". Great video!

@Correctrix

2 жыл бұрын

He's an inspiration! I really hope to get my fluency up to that level.

@esti-od1mz

2 жыл бұрын

@@Correctrix I agree. He should be an ispiration, especially for youngsters!

most of this talk was way above my understanding but I've always found language and accent and its evolution absolutely fascinating. so cool to hear two people (who I've individually followed for a while) discuss this! also as a native hindi speaker I was happily surprised to hear a brief mention of sanskrit. Obviously it comes very naturally to me to say the bh and dh th sounds but I remember trying to get a mate's name correct (he's sudanese) and I couldn't quite get the hang of it. Absolutely fascinating!

I watched the whole thing and enjoyed every minute, my two favorite language nerds talking together just is so cool for me to watch because you are so different and I could just watch you interact for hours. 10/10

Best collabortions happening. What a time to be alive!

Two of my favorite linguistics youtubers talking about languages for 2 hours? Of course I'll always have time for that

either of you guys interested in old celtic dialects? Personally Gaulish is absolutely fascinating to me but there are so few easy to digest sources about it... it had some really interesting features to, like for example tau-gallicum, which may have been something like the th in modern English through or it could have been like a German z /ts/, and there is the matter of the cool optative mood which I've heard existed in Gaulish which encodes desire or wish for the event to happen. Gaulish works a lot like Latin and Ancient Greek to, but without the confusing aspiration distinction, and with surprisingly few consonants, all very interesting to me, especially since it was spoken in a wide region from Brittany to the northwest, to central Anatolia to the east, with most of central and western Europe including parts of Italy and possibly Spain included

Two of my favorites. Good morning, gentlemen, and thanks as always for your efforts.

Many blessings upon this friendship!

This was fantastic!! Thank you both for collaborating, its awesome and such a gift.

Now Crystal in the conversation! This is so wonderful a convo!

I shouldn't even be awake, but I've needed this video for such a long time! Thank you so much!

Two of my favourite KZreadrs have come together! Happy 2022 indeed!!

That was extremely enjoyable and informative. Thanks to you both.

Fascinating, would love to listen to both of you talk all day. I wish I personally knew more people like you, with whom I could talk about linguistics topics for two hours without them getting bored.

Captivating discussion. Thank you.

Profesor Croford is one of the people with high education and very noticable regional accent.

Two of my favorite channels collaborating!!

Enjoyed this a lot. Keen to get those extra links you promised in the description too. Cheers Simon.

Brilliant videos - thanks!

I sympathize with Luke as to mid vowels. I learned French as a Spanish speaker and while /ɔ/ wasn't so bad (it often becomes [ʌ]), learning /e/ and /ɛ/ as different phonemes was rough. Because phonemic /e̞/ allophonically varies between them. And as to Simon's question, I work in EFL with Spanish speskers and the KIT vowel is heard as /i/ for both General American and RP, at least.

Wow a 2 for the price of 1 video! I love these two both! Fan of both!

Love you guys.

Fascinating discourse ; impressive erudition. I look forward to more discussions in future. For phonological drift, one only has to note the massive pronunciation differences between danish and swedish, two languages mutually intelligible on the page, but not when spoken.

“I sawr it”- Pronunciation I heard often in the American south in and around New Orleans, but I think in people from rural areas in southeast Louisiana & nearby Mississippi.

Omg this is great, two of my top 3 linguistics channels. Now we just need Alex from exploring Esperanto

Retvrn to Tradition: The Great Debate

Love these two

I love Luke's channel. His videos of him critiquing Latin in media really fascinates me.

how exciting!!

Two of my favorites on one video... Yeah I'm watching this

I loved the teaser foreshadowing my favorite gentleman from beautiful Colorado. If you three did a Latin Anglo-Saxon Old Norse chat we’d be in heaven.

Massive props for shouting out A. Z. Foreman! He really is the best at what he does

What an absolute pleasure to listen to you two talk. Great job and very informative 😊

I’m so out of my depth here but i find this fascinating I also say rum and room interchangeably, from the New England. Both are totally normal to my ears. The linking R thing is so noticeable as well to me. Sounds like Harry Potter for an entire generation of kids, very very British.

Extremely interesting and refeshing. Please can you do more of such interactive videos whereby you introduce someone knowledgeable like you and make a dialogue about the subject matter? Thank you.

30:00 You can get the vowel sound in (British, non-rhotic) "car" without a written r. A famous example is in the word "path" in a stereotypically southern English accent. Funnily enough though, Northerners using a different vowel sound in "path" will tease Southerners by saying: "Why would you pronounce it like that? There's no 'r' in path!" So that's both an example of that vowel sound occurring without an 'r' in the written language and an example of that vowel sound implying an 'r' in people's perceptions!

@bacicinvatteneaca

2 жыл бұрын

[parːθ] lmao

@SeverusFelix

2 жыл бұрын

I misread this as Southern and Northern US dialects and felt very disoriented for a second. Picture how someone from Mississippi would say "parth." That said, it makes me think of how some Midwesterners say "bolth" instead of "both."

@kernowforester811

2 жыл бұрын

Here in the Westcountry (Cornwall, Devon etc), the 'r' in 'car' is pronounced, it is a retroflex r. Westcountry English is rhotic. So I would say the Ford Ka is a car, not the Ford ka is a ka. Also 'path' is pronounced with a long 'æ', it is not 'pahth'. In northern England it is a short 'æ'. The pronunciations you mention are typical London and London overspill areas, plus the influence of RP (itself of London origin).

@sameash3153

2 жыл бұрын

Warsh

@bowiethedog6285

2 жыл бұрын

'Father' has that vowel too. It's even homophonous with 'farther' in non-rhotic dialects.

Since KZread definitely doesn't like comments with links and email, I was forced to rewrite the one I wrote earlier (with some additions). Native Russian speaker here: 20:29 Luke pronounced the /lʲ/ sound a bit too soft, almost like Italian ⟨ɡl⟩ [ʎ], while it's, in fact, closer to British English "light" or clear L ([l]; Russian /lʲ/ is often realised as [lʲ]). 20:39 The /e/ phoneme gets realised as [e] after palatized consonants regardless of quality of consonant following it. It's just that palatized consonants that follow [e] make the difference a bit more noticeable. 21:05 Vowel reduction is a thing in Russian. But there are not that many allophones as one might think. To put it simply (in order to not make this comment too long and cumbersome to read), there are 5 phonemes in Russian (or 6, but I don't include /ɨ/ as a phoneme here, as it's phonemicity is still debatable): /a/, /o/, /u/, /i/, /e/. Only three of these phonemes tend to be significantly (to the point of merging) reduced in unstressed positions: /a/ (reduces to either [ɐ] or [ə]), /o/ (reduces to either [ɐ], [ə]) and /e/ (reduces to [ɪ]). /i/ and /u/ aren't reduced as noticeably. 22:45 Luke probably got a wrong transcription there. It's [ˈznajʊ] or [ˈznajʊ̈]. [æ] in Russian is an allophone of /a/ after palatslized consonants. If you're interested in deeper dive into Russian, just email me or contact me via Telegram or Discord.

Luke's impression of the Greek historical linguist yelling "Vii vii!" killed me.

Thanks for introducing me to A.Z. Foreman.

I feel like an intellectual watching Simon Roper videos

the old english script thing sounds amazing!!

Thanks for making me discover A.Z. Foreman! Btw you can clearly hear his native accent in his video titled "Aeneid 1.195-209 (Aeneas comforts his men) read in Latin and English translation"

I love you both!

When Luke speaks of pronouncing Latin with more of an Italian, Spanish, Sardinian, etc sound (~1:30), it makes me think that it's the flip side of the coin if one thinks about it in a geographic and historical sense. As one moves away geographically from Italy (ancient Roma/ Latium), you distance yourself from those more core 'Latin' areas and closer to the periphery of the old Roman empire where there may have been more influence from other languages due to proximity and from migrations/invasions after the fall introducing new substrates and superstates. Over time the vernacular/vulgar Latin/romance in the geographic 'periphery' seems to me to have changed/evolved more (French/langue d'oïl phonetically influenced by Germanic languages, Portuguese/Galician at the literal end of a dialect/language continuum, Romanian an island in a Slavic sea) and I totally think Luke is on the right track in wanting to simulate those intonations (and pronunciations) from romance languages closer to historical Latin's geographic 'core' when attempting to reconstruct the most accurate as possible classical Latin pronunciation.

@sif_2799

2 жыл бұрын

French was more influenced by Gaulish and Breton phonetically than Germanic languages. That's where it got it's characteristic nasalisation from.

@BFDT-4

2 жыл бұрын

Those languages are all "dialects" of Latin! 😏

@c.norbertneumann4986

2 жыл бұрын

@@sif_2799 We hardly know the old Gaulish language (or dialects, respectively) that was spoken in antiquity. Only a handful of inscriptions in Gaulish language have remained. Even less we know the pronunciation of that language. Neither do we know whether it had a nasal pronunciation. By the way, the nasalisation was a characteristic of the Romance dialect spoken in the Ile de France in northern France. The southern langues d'oc (Occitan etc.) lack nasalisation.

Thank you for this interesting talk! I've binged though a few polýMATHY videos, they're super interesting - especially the one where Luke talks to Italians in Roman.

my faves collabing :)

Awesome to see this! On the topic of "things preserved a really long time" in English discussed at kzread.info/dash/bejne/a3-csriQiNO0ecY.html , something I'd love to know more about is the preservation of "am" as the first person singular to "to be". This is the case in Farsi as well, but exists as the first person singular suffix (-am) in written Farsi but can be used standalone when spoked as "I am" e.g. "khoobam" -> "I am good."

Native Brazilian Portuguese speaker here. About the L sounds in Portuguese, which you guys discussed at around 18 minutes, I'd say it's velarized at final positions in European Portuguese. However, it's actually completely vocalized in Brazilian Portuguese. So there's a mal-mau merger in Brazilian Portuguese, but not in European Portuguese.

OMG! Two of the greats meet up! Like a lingustic geeky version of Superheros!! aurwm = awr in Welsh too. (hour) from Brythonic contact with Latin, I'm guessing.

Hey!! Great video!! .(My english is quite limited, sorry for that) Could I ask for a video about the guttural ''R'' that you can find in (obviously) German and French but also in Portuguese and, surprisingly, in Italian (northern dialects)? If it is not much bother... Thank you

Wow came on just as I was on your channel

In Catalan we say "foc" as well as in Romanian, but most romance languages don't. There are some sound and word structure similarities between these two romance languages that evolve seperately, what an interesting coincidence!

@bacicinvatteneaca

2 жыл бұрын

In Furlàn (dialect of Friuli, the area of Italy closest to Slovenia) they say fuc In other areas of northern Italy we say fögu, which seems like a reasonable approximation of the early french for fire: [fokus]>[fɵɡuh]>[føɡu]>[føɣʊ]>[føɣə]>[føːə]>[fø]

@empyrionin

2 жыл бұрын

I would like to add that regionally (Wallachia), some Romanian accents have "foc" pronounced as "fuoc" as in most Italian languages. It's mostly considered "basilectal"/"uneducated", but it is very much present and has been for centuries.

One pronunciation that I heard quite a bit growing up in central Texas in the ‘60s and ‘70s but is now rare is “can’t” rhyming with “paint.” Makes me nostalgic!

@schrire39

2 жыл бұрын

The song “I’m just a girl who cain’t say no” (from the musical Oklahoma, lyrics by Oscar Hammerstein) has the rhymes cain’t/ quaint/ paint. Written in the early 1940s.

@greganthony4426

Жыл бұрын

I still hear that in SC to this day. You might hear "I cain't and I ain't gon do it!" Meaning I can't and I won't do it, lol.

As Luke proposed, it would be huge fun to have Luke and Simon try to imitate each other's accents. 😂

16:23. it's common in South Wales to pronounce TOOTH with the 'foot' vowel. I remember being laughed at for this when I went to an English university in the early 80's.

I am not catalan native speaker but do not forget catalan!!! it is a very good source to compare!! also foc, or another similarity with romanian is the participes crescut nascut etc.. Catalan is good to take with infintives and sustantives

1:48:29 when Luke says Caesar it reminded me of the German word "Kaiser". Is there any link there?

@morvil73

Жыл бұрын

Yes, the word was borrowed into German at a time when the Romans still pronounced the diphthong “ae” and had a “hard k-sound” at the beginning. So German “Kaiser” is a kind of fossilised Latin pronunciation, a bit like Finnish “kunningas” preserves the Proto-Germanic nominative ending of *kunningaz ‘king’.

@morvil73

Жыл бұрын

Having said the above, the word “Kaiser” did undergo a phonological journey within German, going from Germanic *ai to Old (High) German *ei and then back to the /ae/ pronunciation of in Modern German, though spelt .

@_Shadbolt_

Жыл бұрын

@@morvil73 Amazing, I forgot I'd asked this - but that's such a cool link. Thank you!

to add complexity, Animals demonstrate local accents too

They implications of some comparative grammar studies are that various rural/African American dialects reflect grammar and speech used in certain regional dialects in England.

Wow Luke. I grew up in NE Kansas and I realized I say rug for roof and my mom says the days as dee (i.e. Tuesdee)…I moved to Colorado about 20 years ago then realized I had a regional accent.

I find it interesting to see how external forces change accents and/or dialects within a language sometimes to the point of changing the language. It would be cool to see like a map of all the languages/dialects of Europe with a common word and its variations. Something that is cognate in both German and Latin for example.

About aspiration in modern European or at least Germanic languages: in my local dialect of German (around Frankfurt), "P" usually switches to "B". As a child, I had always wondered how we are able to distinguish these sounds that differ in Standard German but to me were supposed to be the same. I now think it's possible that an aspirated "B" has taken the place of "P" locally. "Banane", for example, has a different "B" than "Babbsack"(local insult) to my ears. The latter one is the one I think of as aspirated.

@brittakriep2938

2 жыл бұрын

@I Love Memes : In my swabian dialect, we call the Bollezei, soldiers are fighting in the ,Griag' and we are ,doud' , when being in the coffin. I know this phenomeon also! But a ,Dote' is a ,Taufpatin'.

Baldric needs to meet Decimvs Helvidivs Rvfvs

38:11 when they mention adding an h to the beginning of a word starting with a vowel reminds me of many people from the Appalachian mountains that like to add h to the beginning of words with vowels. Those people are descendants of mostly Scottish, Irish, and I believe northern English speakers. So they would say something like “get on with hit.” Very interesting 🤔

Luke, your Brazilian Portuguese is mostly perfect. It's carnAval; something interesting took place with that old E there and it became A. You're good to go, sir. :)

I'm Australian. We have the same 'linking R', of course. Most people with a non-rhotic accent don't notice it. Even when it has been pointed out, some can hardly believe it.

That's a great idea for collaboration

omg you two! together! That is all.

The greatest crossover in linguistics history!

@mysigt_

2 жыл бұрын

Amateur linguistics, maybe. Let’s not enrage the real-deal scholars

@paradoxicalocus3761

2 жыл бұрын

@@mysigt_ oh, let’s do enrage them!

Write the book! It would be amazing, I would buy it.

I wish there was a link for the hundreds of different dialects of Romance languages that Luke mentioned (*wink* *wink*). Would really love to see the difference between even the smallest variations in dialects of say French and Castilian Spanish.

You got luke on!!!

What a wonderful first date!

Nice!

Over corrected H occurs in other Germanic languages as well, especially if the word is unclear or unfamiliar.

Yes. Just yes!!

Brilliant

yay!!! great crossover!

This 2-hours-long conversation between two of my favorite channels taught me enough material I could learn by reading for hours. I am also happy to hear Raphael Turrigiano and A. Z. Foreman's names. I enjoy and respect all the work you people bring through social media.

I find this linking “r” in many british speakers when they say “America(r)” and almost anything which ends with “a” like “China(r)” these only appear if some other word which starts with a vowel follows it. So a british speaker will most likely say “America” if asked to say it, but if asked to say “America is……” they would probably say “America(r) is”

@bobcaine4525

2 жыл бұрын

Also “drawing” is said like “draw(r)ing” by many speakers”

Luke is so nice

Modern Greek pronunciation of Beta as V was such a surprise to be - and what was more a surprise is how now they get the B sound with Mu and Pi (μπ - mp). I wonder if this is why Russian used B for V (Ve) and Б as B (Be). Other diphthongs which are cool - gk (γκ) for G because Gamma is now more of a ye in YEllow sound and ng in thiNG, and nt (ντ) for D because Delta is now like th in English THen/Welsh dd/Icelandic ð

What's the 'cool 800-pager' on The Greek Language called?

now that discussion of actors trying to do authentic recreations of shakespearean english accents makes me want to see/hear a Hamlet adaptation where everyone speaks in a really strong middle danish accent

I was expecting Luke to speak in a British accent, as he's linguistically all-powerful :D

LL in Icelandic, old Norse and some Norwegian dialects (although in the Norwegian often still written as lt or tl) is similar to Welsh LL - the adjacent stop and liquid merge into a fricative. In Icelandic I believe there is some over correction where gemminated l is mistaken for the fricative. Note although the merger of LD to LL is written in ON, this development does not appear in most of Scandinavia except for some Norwegian dialects (possibly because the d had already become a fricative rather than a stop in the West)

1:03:55 PLEASE this would be such a great resource; I've yet to find many OE learning materials that really focus on more conversational phrases and expressions. Of course, learning grammar and vocabulary by examining texts like Bēowulf is vital for anyone learning about OE, but to have a comprehensive collection of words/phrases that feel truly "natural" and conversational would, I imagine, make the language feel a bit more accessible to the average learner