I think the problem some people have with enclosure orders is the confuse it with electrical orders. With electrical orders it is a 6 db/octave roll off per order. That is just the way inductors and capacitors work when you when you hook them up for filtering. So each component you hook up in the chain adds an order. Just a capacitor hooked up in series with a driver will give you a 6 db/oct. high pass roll off. Now if you take that same circuit and add one lead from an inductor between the driver and the capacitor, and the other going to negative you will have a 12 db/ oct. high pass roll off. that is how the electrical side of it works. the acoustic/electrical mechanical/mechanical side of it counts compliant components. A speaker is 2nd order because it has 1)it has a cone adn suspension system that are compliant 2) it has a voice coil that is also compliant. The enclosure has an air mass spring that is compliant. A port also has and air mass that is compliant. By compliant I mean the are all able to be moved and can cause movement. Now if you want to mix the two together You could take a 4th order bandpass and wire in an inductor or capacitor and that would technically be a 5th order system. It does not change the 4th order box it's self, rather the additional component would add an order to the system.

Great explanations my Friend, I Definitely see the error of my ways. Thank you so much for the information. That's why I'm here to learn.

@BudgetBassHead

4 жыл бұрын

Sorry I forgot your name during the video, I'll make sure to add it in the editing of another one.

@Gcrilla

4 жыл бұрын

@@BudgetBassHead it's not that big of a deal, thanks alot for correcting me, this is very well explained, I look forward to the whole series.

Both camps have there valid points and make sense for sure in the end call it what you want we are all here for the music 🎶 if you understand the overall design, not everyone learns the same way maybe it's easier to understand one over the other for some people or that's the original way they learned it.

I think the proper term to remove confusion is to call it a series "tuned" bass Reflex. The moment you include the word bandpass, the driver gets hidden within the box. A 4th order can only be a ported and sealed enclosure in one box. 6th you get series tuned and parallel layouts.

9mins in, I knew I should have waited to write my comment😂. It’s all good, I enjoy the discussion and your content! Ok pressing play again, gotta finish this.

@BudgetBassHead

4 жыл бұрын

😆 Yep. Happens to me all the time.

Hello there BudgetBassHead. I noticed one thing that wasn't mentioned in the video, which was an explanation of the ratio in relation for the second chamber for the 6th order bass reflex to the loading chamber.. Not sure if it should be the same ratio, or smaller than chamber one, or bigger of the enclosure. Also what are the trade offs of making one chamber bigger than the other.Just something for those that don't understand how acoustic orders work. Maybe a video for later. Trade offs for acoustic order ratios. SPL vs SQ between 6th order bandpass vs 6th order bass reflex.

There are only 3 circumstances which you can truely ascend an acoustic order, capacitive reactance which is what happens when you confine the back wave to a chamber, inductive reactance which is what happens when the back wave goes through a vent and the reactance that happens when the front & the back wave meet. Technically a speaker by itself does not constitute second-order if you put a speaker in an infinite baffle it only makes it first order by separating the front & the back wave. The reason why a sealed chamber is second-order is because the chamber confines the back wave which subjects it to capacitive reactance therefore raising the acoustic order to second. If you then put a vent in a sealed chamber it does two things by two different types of reactance. It's subjects the wave to inductive reactance by the vent which raises it to third order then the front and the back wave meet which constitutes another form of reactance raising it to 4th order.

If you want to get my opinion, “Order” can also refer to the rate of the slope outside the passband. So a sealed enclosure, basic square box, .707 design, is a 2nd order. Most second order “sealed” designs , outside the passband “frequency range” the slope is going down on the top end “fh” at 12db per octave, as well as the bottom end of the response curve “fl” is also going down at a rate of 12db per octave. That’s just in reference to the system before being amplified. Then, you could technically run the subwoofer active with a dsp and a full range amplifier, but decide you wanted to add an additional 6 dB per octave crossover on the low end of the response curve in tandem with the natural slope the system has, hence making it a 3rd order. If you want to get technical , anything with a port or (vent) that allows the front wave and the back wave to interact with each other, depending on the alignment of the enclosure and how ports have non linearity properties when dealing with high power , which technically is anything over 100watts, like for example, when measuring the f3 of a system with a 3” diam pvc port and in same system changing it to 4” diam Port , that can then change what the f3 of the system is even when being tuned to the same thing. Port velocity changes a lot of things in a system because it isn’t linear across the response curve. Therefore one of the other things that can be different across many similar “ported” car audio systems out there, is the natural rate of the fh and fl slopes outside the passband, which can be anywhere around 20-24 db per octave rate of slope just based off assisted alignment and unassisted alignments commonly used; sbb4 qb3 etc. I’m not even 3 mins into the video yet, so hopefully my opinion doesn’t come back to haunt me lol. Hope you can appreciate what I was referring to with my rant on the “order” of enclosures. I’m no expert, this is just some of the stuff I’ve learned from my journey in all this.

@BudgetBassHead

4 жыл бұрын

I think a few more minutes of viewing this video would have you smiling 😁

I have watched hours of this wonderfully done series....and learned more than I realized I never knew before! Thank you! 👍👍 My question (if you will, please): I have a custom box from the early 1990’s that I *JUST* had installed in my 2016 Maxima and *IT STILL* rocks!! I am trying to remember what order this box is and do my best to explain it to you. I had size limitations (L, W and H) in the car this box was built for...yet I required tight DEEP bass since I’m a drummer and wanted the system tuned for listening specifically to the drummers of the rock music that I play and listen to. The guru that built this box for me told me I was making his life difficult with my limitations and desires.....THIS is what he built for me and knocked it out of the park: The box is rectangular. It has three separate segments. The outer two segments are sealed and each contain a JL Audio 10. Both are vertically mounted and fire into the (larger) center chamber. The center chamber has a (huge) cylindrical port that fires all the energy out of the center of the box. 1. *IS THIS A FIFTH ORDER??* 2. *BANDPASS.....OR REFLEX??*

@BudgetBassHead

3 жыл бұрын

sounds like a dual chambered 4th Order bandpass. You have sealed chambers coupled with a ported chamber. that is a classical 4th order system. some may want to count the two sealed chambers as seperate energy-storing-container, but in actually they are not for they are in sync with one another, and acting as one unit. so its practically the same as having one sealed section and one ported section: 4th order.

Actually, spot on with the people you were targeting. Dang, that was creepy like someone on Omegle knowing my address. :p

Mind blowing! Would a down facing sub add an order to the enclosure?

Did you know while calculating port length the proper way is to draw a line down the center of the port and when there’s a 90’ angle where the port ends inside the box and if the exit is at a 90’ angle exiting the box you count the thickness of the material at a 90’ angle on both ends of the port by drawing your line up until the material surface of the wood actually ends. Most ports are off by 1 1/2. Or 2” depending on the material thickness. Here’s an example of what I’m talking about kzread.info/dash/bejne/fXmtu9qqk9C4e7Q.html

What if you built a 6th bass reflex horn? How would you tune it? Could this be worth designing and building in a trunk? Am I naming the enclosure correctly? The deeper I dig into audio the more I understand how little I really know! Thanks for these videos they have helped me and many others comprehend enclosures better.

Need more on 4th order reflex

Ok. I subscribed. My new teacher 😊

@BudgetBassHead

3 жыл бұрын

Awesome! Thank you!

What the chambers & vents do is they allow more high-end frequency. The first chamber is going to be for all the deep and lower frequencies and the second chamber is going to allow higher frequencies

So I have a question if you have multiple drivers does that add 2 orders per driver? Or because they work as one are they considered as one driver? Great video you have opened my eyes to alot of different enclosures and how to properly construct them.

@BudgetBassHead

4 жыл бұрын

Interesting question! In my opinion, No. It would no be considered additional orders. What it would do is change a few parameters of your setup; as you stated above. Of course, what exact parameters depends upon the configuration; isobaric, multi-chambered, etc...

Do you still run 12 to 16 port area on this enclosure in both chambers?

On a 6th bandpass does it make a difference if the sub fires into the rear/front chamber?

My question for you is, IF you were to tune at the 30/60 setup like you have yours, would it keep it from rolling off at like 42-45hz and keep going above 60 and be able to play well below 30 hz as well? My 4th is tuned to 32hz now and while it KILLS the lows, it suffers above 37hz and I hate that. I’d love to have my system be able to play a broad range well without sacrificing low or high end. Sorry for the long write. I’m still learning about octave roll off and orders so it’s all a tad overwhelming lol but I’ll get there. Thanks! Love the channel 🤘🏻learned a great deal here

@BudgetBassHead

4 жыл бұрын

The short answer is yes. check out my latest build I just built a 6 order bass reflex you may find that you like what you see.

@lifeonadime4703

4 жыл бұрын

BudgetBassHead awesome I’ll sure look into it. Iv seen just one comparo with you using it but I’ll dig into more vids of the build. Thanks for the reply! Good content brother loving this channel. Big thumbs up from me👍🏻

I can see the point to both arguments, that doesn't make it any less confusing 🤪 the point is which one sounds better? Now sound is subjective form on person to another as i always say sound is in the ear of the beholder and so is beauty is in the eye of the beholder which makes things even more confusing, are you sill with me? Good because I'm lost😂

@BudgetBassHead

4 жыл бұрын

So, very true. It's all about the level of enjoyment the listener receives!

Because if you ask an audio engineer they'll tell you that the energy compartments are what constitute acoustic orders

I still can't find the answer to my question. When series tuning an enclosure, bass reflex or bandpass, the work Hoffman did proved that the tuning frequencies in series tuned enclosures are dependent on each other. What I can't find is the exact correlation between the two ports to find final tuning frequency before building the designed enclosure.

@BudgetBassHead

Жыл бұрын

I think you're referencing the middle band frequency. Just know this whatever your inner frequency is, it must be able to pass through your order frequency and you should be fine.

In a 6th order series bandpass does it matter which port should be tuned low/high? Currently I have the inside port tuned at 32 hz and the outside port 50 hz. Would it make a difference if they were swapped. Reason I'm asking is on the low side I have about 5.5 cu ft and on the high side about 9.5 cu ft. It sounds great but seems like it would perform better if the side with more cu ft was tuned low. Am I correct about this?

@BudgetBassHead

4 жыл бұрын

By rule of thumb, you want to tune your chamber, 1/2 or 1 octave apart. And also, the first frequency should be small enough to pass through the next. 30 through to 60 to 90 and so forth.

@hopskustomaudio

4 жыл бұрын

@@BudgetBassHead Ok. I see what you're saying. Makes sense. Do you think it would be a good idea to increase the size of the first chamber that is tuned low? It hits the lows great as it is and even plays down to 25 hz loud but still feel like its lacking. This is my first big bandpass build and of course its a lot different than the typical bass reflex enclosure that I normally build. So I really appreciate the help and the quick reply. Thanks

@johnfredrick4543

3 жыл бұрын

Jason Hopkins. Is your subwoofer on the inside of the box. And if it is do you have a port on the backside of the subwoofer were your magnet is. and is the port going out of the box. And on the front side of the subwoofer were the cone is.. is the Port is going out of the box. I'm trying to see what 6th order you have. I'm thinking about making one. I appreciate it if you got back to me thank you Johnny

HEY BUDGETBASSHEAD, how do you properly model something like this? i saw a mini 3d printed 6th order series tuned bass reflex build from youtuber Hexibase, who is a audio engineering professional. but he doesnt show how he models the cabinet, also his active chamber is smaller than the passive chamber, the opposite of your design, just curious, do you have any resources, books, websites etc??? where i can learn about how to design and model this? winisd doesnt have a "6th order bass reflex" options lol

@BudgetBassHead

2 ай бұрын

Honestly, I winged it, purely off of experience. But try Hornresp application. It has a few more options than WinISD

Wouldn't a 6th order bass reflex basically be an aperiodic bi-chamber?

Why? That whole time could have talked about pressure vs velocity in the box and vent, or the responce vs frequency plots and what the shape of the curve or peak/valley means. The impedance events...acoustic and electric....ya know, the science and understanding if how it works vs argueing pointless semantics...

Acoustic orders are not limited to one particular type of arrangement

Wow. I dont know what it's like to be high but id bet it would sound like THIS dude is talking. :D

I call 3rd order enclosed a Bose Box!

shows us the front side of 10 different enclosures that all look the same from that angle lol. just show us the top view bro, youre killing me

My question for the ones that still constitute the 6th order reflex to be the same as the 4th order reflex is if they're the same then why the difference? I understand their logic for the natural 6db roll off, but does that neglect the addition of chambers when comparing the two enclosures? In my opinion it doesn't due to the fact the additional chambers changes the response and performance of the driver. So even if you wouldn't consider it as a 6th order reflex you couldn't consider it the same as a 4th order reflex! So what do you call it? A 4th order reflex plus? Which would still acknowledge the difference! Sort of like Samsung Galaxy smartphones. Ultimately the Samsung galaxy is the same as the Samsung galaxy plus (ultimately), however ultimately is not the same! So I think the camps agree to disagree 🤔 lol.

@BudgetBassHead

4 жыл бұрын

😆 I couldn't have said it better myself 🤟

If I could critique one thing. Your knowledge of the acoustical orders is 2nd to none. But I think where people will lose you and myself included is when you fumble over your technical terms for the orders, reflex, bandpass, enclosure, etc, etc. You called several things by the wrong term BUT quickly correct yourself. But then the listener has heard at some time 4 different terms when only 2 terms apply. Creating an overload of vocabulary that if one is not up on all the technical terms used would feel overwhelmed. But this is purely constructive criticism. And again I've learned alot from your videos. And your knowledge is 2nd to none. But i think it would help to have your lecture written down and proof read and then read during video. And seriously this is not meant to be a rude judgement. Cuz when you think about it if you listen to any genius scientist they do the same thing usually because there's so much their brain is trying to get out in a shorter amount of time that their mouth can relay the thoughts. Just constructive criticism meant to help your channel and more people like me that come to learn from you. Thanks for the education.

@BudgetBassHead

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks for the honesty. Comments such as this is always welcomed on this channel. Thanks Again!

Don’t make a baffle of this architecture unless you want to build The Slowest Woofer in the World. 1/5-1/3 sec of delay is guaranteed. Tho sequential resonators that must be pumped one after another before a sound escapes...

I usually just make a ported box. I'm thinking about making a 6th order box and from what I understand the box should be smaller than a ported box. My 15 inch speaker spec for a ported box is 5.32 cu ft. so it's 22.95x35.9x14.95 with 1 inch thick and the freq. will be 38 & F3 27.7 Hz. and the port is 8.5x14.07x7 with 3/4 inch thickness. How do you calculate for the extra chamber? Oh and by the way the sealed box is 3.64 cu ft. 19.5x20x22 with 1inch thick and the F3 will be 45.39 Hz.

@daytrace4635

4 жыл бұрын

Im still in the process of my series 6th 15, 3 cuft with 28 sq in of port tuned to 27 and 5ish cuft front with 79 sq in of port tuned to 54, if I remember, Ill make a comment on how it goes in a few days

@steveh3520

4 жыл бұрын

Now, that I'm reading my comment. I just realize that I should've put a question mark behind, "I understand the box should be smaller than a ported box?", because you didn't say it's true or false. I would like to know are you going by the specs from the speaker manufactory? If not how are you coming up with size, because it's close to mine's. Now for the port size, I'm figuring that you're doing you own calculations and are you comparing them against someone's "example as 12volt.com"? I'm hoping that you'll understand my simple questions and explain them to me. Thanks

@daytrace4635

4 жыл бұрын

@@steveh3520 Im in a group on fb and a guy runs the same subs, same freq that I wanted, he just had two compared to my one in a 6th, so I essentially cut his specs in half(his front port is bigger but Im using aeros so mine is slightly different, Id run through programs but my laptop crashes whenever I look at it wrong lol, for series 6th, you want the rear chamber to be smaller on ported size, mine says 3-5 cuft, you want one chamber to be smaller than the other, Id stick with anything below 1:2 ratio, have have had bad experience with 1:2 and up but you can reverse the ratios ie(bigger rear chamber smaller front chamber) but I haven't tried that at all

@daytrace4635

4 жыл бұрын

so If you're building one like mine, probably want to do a bigger ratio depending on your sub, I think I traded efficiency for passband, sounds really good and plays more freq but its not as loud as it was, Im going to try going to about 115 sq in slot port in the front sometime in the next few weeks and see if it improves, if that doesn't work then Im just going to tape off rear ports and see if itll act better as a 4th bandpass instead

@steveh3520

4 жыл бұрын

I have 4 old Ultra Linear 10" ul1095p and a UL600HC amp. I know that the ported is 2 Cu. Ft. per 10" and if I remember correctly sealed is .59 Cu. Ft. I was watching some videos about 4 woofers in a 4th order box and I think 6th order too. Right now I'm watching BudgetBassHead 8th Order Bandpass video and I just did a tone generator test. I'm enjoying hertz from 130's to high 20's. The speaker sounds really good in the 120ish, 90's, and 60's-30's. That's just 1 of the speaker that I swapped out for a 5.1. I believe the box is 2 Cu. Ft. what do you suggest on how to pick up on those other hertz that I missed?

good content, but had to watch it on 1.25 playback speed

Well the camp that believes in the octave roll off are obviously not audio engineers

People can believe whatever they want to believe it doesn't make it real