I thought 5e was a heroic game until I played a Call of Cthulhu campaign. Running around fighting against overwhelming forces, shattering their ownd minds and breaking their bodies just for a chance to save the world from human evils and horrors beyond. The lovecraftian universe is cold and uncaring, but seeing my players fight for what their characters believe is more than moving, it's inspiring. They are as immortal for me as some of my favorite characters from other media. That is why you need villains, death and risk. There is no power otherwise. No true fantasy, either. Just an adolescent's dream.

@DUNGEONCRAFT1

Жыл бұрын

Love Cthulhu.

I call the modern style of play, “playing house.”

@Jason-sj7xi

Жыл бұрын

“Optimization” should be optimizing an awesome story, not making it mathematically impossible for me to get hurt, or limit me to cheese so I can then be 30x more effective in combat than everyone else because I’m a aracockra/assassin/wizard/Druid/twilight cleric.

@InternetHydra

Жыл бұрын

Unironically, Playing Pretend is a better form of roleplaying experience.

@emjtucson

Жыл бұрын

And the attribute arrays, smh. Rolling your stats creates character.

@LionKimbro

Жыл бұрын

@@InternetHydra STRONG AGREE. But I play D&D for the game.

@salamshalom

Жыл бұрын

🤣

I kept playing D&D 5E with my group because I thought my players were attached to the game and their characters. They recently told me that they are actually bored with 5E and ready to try a different game. We are playing Old School Essentials next week and I couldn't be more thrilled!

@DUNGEONCRAFT1

Жыл бұрын

Let me know how it goes.

Players come up with more inventive and creative solutions to every challenge or problem put in front of them when they know one misstep can kill their character. And getting XP for gold instead of killing creatures in old school games means that not every encounter is automatically going to end up with combat.

@elgatochurro

Жыл бұрын

Not only that but combat is much safer for them in pf2 and 5e They WANT the dangerous combat option these days. The modern systems are designed around that. I prefer Savage Worlds where is a death spiral with quick simple, easy to follow rules that help create a pulp like fantasy as adnd was meant to have.

@heroeshomebrew

Жыл бұрын

I have yet to try SW but it’s been on my list of systems to try for years. I’ve been playing White Box and OD&D lately and feels so fast and light I’m loving running it.

@beowulfshaeffer8444

Жыл бұрын

Yes! XP for GP is so much more interesting, and so much easier to track.

@Newnodrogbob

Жыл бұрын

You’re allowed to award xp for things other than combat. I find this whole culture of 5e rules bashing kooky. You all are totally fine making judgement calls about which rules to use, but deciding how much xp a particular encounter solution is worth is iNsAnE! Sure, the DM made up the entire world and everything you will encounter tonight, but it’s Ok. It’s still a rigidly structured and totally fair game because…he wrote down everything that he made up yesterday, and he’s not going to change it tonight. 😂

@elgatochurro

Жыл бұрын

@@Newnodrogbob Its not OUR FAULT that WOTC sold us an undercooked handbook... most editions and games also include clarifications and rules handbooks later just solving whatever messes popped up... 5e? no AND ITS SIXTY DOLLARS

Having just finished a 4 year low-to-high level campaign, we're switching from 5E to Savage Worlds. But the first thing we did was do a Dungeon Crawl Classics one-shot, Sailors On The Starless Sea. My players LOVED it. They were tense as they explored the dungeon because anything could mean death for their little army of peasants and as they made their narrow escape from the sinking ziggurat at the end, each of them only having one character left, they were laughing and cheering.

Go Deathbringer!!! Show em that preview! I've recently gotten back into playing 5e after almost a year of only playing old school. The difference is glaring and unfortunately, most of the people I play with don't want a deadlier game. I enjoy the stories we create, but even that is different because I've found I far prefer emergent stories now than a vaguely disguised railroad.

SHADOWDARK. Seriously, it’s everything I love about 5e, nothing I don’t, all the cruft pulled out and wrapped in an economy of word choice I’ve never seen in another rpg

@Klijpo

Жыл бұрын

Shadowdark is amazing. Most of my players love it, but one prefers hardcore maths so is now leaning to Pathfinder! :)

@daelusraine2989

Жыл бұрын

Getting like 10 fights in a night with 4th level characters... Meanwhile in our 5e campaign we'll get through one during overland travel and then the session is over...

@docnecrotic

Жыл бұрын

It's a pretty neat 5E mod. Not the first one to do old school inspired 5E play, but it's good to see the concept continue. I'd rather stick to OSR style play myself, but this game is a nice homage.

@HouseDM

Жыл бұрын

Love Shadowdark! Definitely would NOT consider it a 5e mod. That’s quite reductive to the actual thought and intent that went into its design, imho.

@Klijpo

Жыл бұрын

@@HouseDM Agree. It borrows the bones of it's system from 5e, but it is its own thing. Wouldn't even say its that 'old skool', in that it's mainly a tone and not really mechanical. Plus it is a complete game, unlike most OSRs. And it does it's own thing too.

The elevator trap in Ravenloft with the sleep gas save at -4 hurdles you up into the high tower and then the players awaken to Strahd chewing their faces off…yes, resplendent!

@k-aw-teksleepysageuni8181

Жыл бұрын

THE BEST TRAP. The party sent Rictavio (van Richten) down to that level with another party member while they searched for Argynvost's skull... Rictavio and the Rogue ended up getting killed by that trap. But then another player who really liked Van Richten took the Gift of Zhuudun in the Amber Temple just to True Ressurect Van Ricthen. We just ended that session and they are about to assault Castle Ravenloft for a final time.

@satturnine7320

Жыл бұрын

@@k-aw-teksleepysageuni8181 Our priest and rogue managed their saves but Strahd used his mirror image and distracted the thief and charmed the priest into casting hold person on him, then the vampyre went to work ]}:(€

@tyrrollins

Жыл бұрын

Ah yes-save or die mechanics. Nothing like just dying to random shit. Arbitrary high difficulty is as bad as the game being to easy.

@jefffaller5155

Жыл бұрын

@@tyrrollins Arbitrary? Everyone knows you don't F w/ a vampire. And if you do, you'd better be certain that you have the deck HIGHLY STACKED in your favor. And even then... bad stuff happens. Point is, telegraph and make sure the players have the requisite information.

@tyrrollins

Жыл бұрын

@@jefffaller5155 My comment isn't about vampires its about save or die rolls and situations. They arent interesting and are an archaic ttrpg mechanic. If you like meat grinders they are probably fine but games where death is routine is as bad as games where it doesn't happen.

I used to think the same thing as you did until I started running a game for some kids. I realized death doesn't need to be on the table, but losing is still an option. If you run or lose, this orc army is going to take over this town, your guy will be in the dungeon for a few months, then we start from there. I mean in the long run you only win or lose because the DM decides if you win or lose

@DUNGEONCRAFT1

Жыл бұрын

With kids that works.

@NigeltheLucky

Жыл бұрын

@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 even with adults. Some adults will cry and leave the table when you hit them too hard. I was running Morg Borg a few weeks back and my, all adult players, pushed back on the level of misery I put them through even before the deaths. I ultimately agreed with them, that game is misery on top of misery. Not to get too far from the point I was getting at. Death… while is big as far as stakes go, isn’t the ultimate stakes, because dnd has a back from the dead mechanic so easy I find death to be rather whatever. Threatening players with misery has much more stakes ultimately. The character dies… yeah ok, so what they get raised in a few days and come back to find their favorite town in slavery, the king dancing for coppers by an outhouse, and everyone they had as friends serving the villain… that is stakes for me. I see your point but I prefer mine on this one I’m a fan of your class professor 👍🏾

The "death is not on the table" reminds me of 7th Sea 1e/2e, where the tension and excitement doesn't just come from dying, but from the emotional and social stakes at hand. The game and book are really honest about that and the GM and players enjoy the game starting from that premise. Maybe 6th edition needs to be more honest about characters being super hard to kill. I know they won't and characters will be unstoppable machines from medium levels as in 5th, but one can dream.

@krinkrin5982

Жыл бұрын

5e wants to be a combat-heavy game, but the combats in the introductory scenarios are very unbalanced, and combat in general is very swingy, with people gaining and loosing hp all over the place. At the same time, most effects that players (and monsters) could use for a distinct advantage have been neutered, so the only real deciding factor is who can get the sliding scales of hp down to 0 (and keep it there for 3 turns) first.

@RecklessFables

Жыл бұрын

7th Sea is Pulp and it is pretty great for that.

@lugh.i

Жыл бұрын

@@krinkrin5982 I'd say combats in a lot of scenarios and levels tend to be unbalanced, for one side or the other.

@lugh.i

Жыл бұрын

@@RecklessFables Yeah! I've had a lot of great and intense combat and roleplaying moments in that game and it doesn't turn my character into an invincible super hero or drags for hours without intention.

When I was running 5e, I created an Excel spreadsheet where I entered the PC stats, and it then generated a balanced generic monster based on those stats. I would then use the special abilities from the Monster Manual, but use the stats from the spreadsheet. It could also generate quick/weak or slow/powerful versions, or versions designed for range. It made the battles less of a foregone conclusion. One of my favorite things about 4th edition was that the battles were always close, and that created tension. 5e has no tension.

@Inari007

Жыл бұрын

4E was WAY ahead of its time. 5E is really a huge step backward LOL I hear PF2E has adopted many ideas from 4E LOL

@foldionepapyrus3441

Жыл бұрын

5E stock can have tension, but it really helps to have fewer players as a smaller party can suddenly find even demigod like powers get overwhelmed if they play badly or roll poorly. And with so few players you can more easily run larger swarms without slowing the game to a massive crawl. I do like your Monster jiggering system though, and aid for something I think any 5E DM ends up doing a fair bit, inventing actually challenging situations.

@michaellopate4969

Жыл бұрын

I hated 4e on release but have definitely grown to appreciate how finely tuned the balance was, especially as a DM. Truly the only balanced edition, though at the cost of limiting player freedom. Always the cost of a tight system.

It’s true 5e by default is certainly a power fantasy but in fairness to 5e, the DMG Workshop at the back of the book (chapter 9) has some very nice variant rules to increase the challenge for gaming for tables that like it that way. This is often overlooked by those that over criticise 5e.

@michaellopate4969

Жыл бұрын

You don't even need variant rules. Just make encounters more challenging, and keep increasing difficulty until the balance is where you want it. Or don't let them long rest, keep them moving and combat gets harder and harder as resources are exhausted. You don't have limitless healing. People who claim 5e is "too easy" just aren't using their brains or have bad DMs.

For me, its the reason DM'ing 5e is not fun. I know the players have a ton of fun living the power fantasies, but you have to bend so many rules to challenge the players in any shape or form. The coolest part of a DM is not knowing the result of some crazy scenario you made, or how the players will react to it and then getting to be a spectator while they work through it. There are just so many ways to cheese the system or "win" in 5e.

@GreylanderTV

Жыл бұрын

For the most part, I don't think players really enjoy it all that much either. "God mode" is momentarily fun, but becomes boring very quickly. Players get stuck in a trap of getting what they want, not being able to give that up, and not really realizing why they are so unsatisfied.

@Imhal13

Жыл бұрын

I agree. I would gladly GM DCC or Shadowdark on next to no notice and feel like I could just roll with it. Improv and creativity still have a place there. 5e just feels like "murder math". That bead shoving until the players win. I understand I can tweak it but, I can run other games stock, right off the shelf, and present challenges which are fun for me and for my players. I don't like games where you win in the build. What is the point? Just because you put a narrative hat on it, that does not make it a good time. I have found that games like Blades in the Dark , DCC or Shadowdark have really grabbed my players because NONE of us know how anything will turn out. Playing to find out, with some sense of things being high stakes, make even a simple game dynamic. It's so much more fun.

@taragnor

Жыл бұрын

Yeah there's a reason 5E has such a DM shortage.

@CheezMonsterCrazy

Жыл бұрын

@@taragnor The reason this seems to be the case is that 5e has a much more general audience, many of whom have a lower level of investment, or simply lower level of experience, in the hobby. It is still remarkably easy to find a 5e game to join with almost zero notice, without having to dig too deep through the internet. For the most part, every other TTRPG exists in the realm of enthusiasts. Heck, I've met avid players of 5e who don't even know there are third party publishers for 5e content, much less hundreds of other psuedo-medieval fantasy TTPRGs on the market.

@mechanussunrise

Жыл бұрын

I agree and at the same time I'm the opposite. I had a lot more fun running 5e than playing in it. When I finally got to do more playing, I realized that we were spending hours on combats that we had no chance of losing. If I want combats where the outcome is predetermined, then I want them to be over quickly and much simpler, requiring a much lighter rules system for combat. It really felt like players showing off to each other with no other purpose. Plus when the game makes it so much about what options your character is made with, then many players want to skip to the part of the game where they use all those abilities which is combat 80% of the time. So its a mismatch between rules and intended gameplay.

5e was like my time in a logging camp in Alaska. We ate like kings everyday and in under 2 months i was sick of all the food and was just eating ice cream for dinner half the time.

I think it really depends on what you want from your game. You want a brutal hardcore experience? Cut some rules and go with it. You want an easy storry experience like a videogame or a book? Those are fun too, go with it. Just make sure everyone in the room wants the same. I think all problems in RPGs start with people not knowing what they want.

@DUNGEONCRAFT1

Жыл бұрын

Thanks for sharing. Agree!

@apilgrim8715

Жыл бұрын

Yep. Some systems make the kind of game you want easier to run.

You’re absolutely right. Without great risk there is no reward. I’m sure there are many players who are satisfied with going through the motions of playing, satisfied by the imagery in their minds. I see these people as those who are proud of their participation awards. TTRPGs are an abstraction of real life, set in an imaginary environment. They’d no better place to take risks because the consequences only affect one’s imagination. Not all heroes survive IRL and they shouldn’t in fantasies. A fantasy hero not performing outrageous acts at great risk is empty of meaning.

Your players handbook with the blacked out section makes me laugh every time. I absolutely love it!

@moodymac

Жыл бұрын

I laughed out loud at that. Pretty rare.

@rixaxeno7167

Жыл бұрын

He should have crossed out Saving Throws too

@michaellopate4969

Жыл бұрын

funny for us, but how fun for you as a player to die to a couple unlucky die rolls? And then what, to restart at level 1? With the same party where everyone else is 5 levels up on you?

@moodymac

Жыл бұрын

@@michaellopate4969 We don't think it's funny when characters die. It should be tragic, dramatic or heroic though. It's not really unlucky to die, in a dungeon fighting monsters, and opening trapped chests and doors...... I prefer to think of it as lucky to survive, sticking their noses in to places better left alone.

@moodymac

Жыл бұрын

And it's good to have powerful friends between you and the baddies when you play (or restart) at first level. Great fun.

Back in the day we used the Arduin critical hit tables, which were freaking lethal. No long rest would cure being ripped in half.

Your game Deathbringer was a great inspiration for making my 5E games grittier, and also reducing the PCs' exponential power leveling. My fellow-players and I have more fun now playing our Sword & Sorcery version of 5E, with PC deaths every session or so, than the official corporative 5E in which nobody dies.

@DUNGEONCRAFT1

Жыл бұрын

Thanks. Glad you're enjoying it!

The bit about vampires really sells the sizzle with clarity. Yes! That's a great way of articulating the elegant simplicity.

@DUNGEONCRAFT1

Жыл бұрын

Thanks.

100% agree that death should always be on the table simply for the fear factor involved. But 5e and Pathfinder want to make sure that death is a trivial matter. Like shooing gnats away. Annoying but not a threat at all because even if you die you can come back again with a simple handwave. Even resurrection magic should come at a cost or be more difficult to use each time it is used. But when you can't kill a PC unless they fail three death saves (the odds are in their favor for a better than 50% chance of success), have to hit them into negative the same number as they have positive, then they short rest, get all or most of the HP back in an hour, then go on like nothing happened. Or they long rest and wake up the next day fully healed. Making healing potions and healing magic almost meaningless and forget any resource management, or challenges that don't have to be over the top difficult to create any risk. This then bogs the game down because you have to place massive bags of HPs and damage dealers to threaten players, dragging things out to utter boredom. Compare that to my current C&C games where low level monsters are still a threat to mid-level PCs because everyone isn't a bag of endless hit points and reviving abilities. Combat is 100x faster than in 5e.

There's something about old school DnD that allowed player skill to be something beyond metagaming. Not sure why modern games can't still allow for that while having the mechanics they do, but they do seem to push you to the limited options in the book rather than the infinite possibilities outside the book, and honestly most players are using the same strategy every battle, doing the same thing. Wizards seems to be making the game more and more like a videogame every edition, which plays well into their strategy of VTTs and AI DMs I guess.

@keithkannenberg7414

Жыл бұрын

They've been trying to make D&D more like video games for decades. That's why you have so much healing (you usually start every encounter at full health in a video game), so hard to kill (most games you just respawn after death), every player gets new "whiz-bang" powers every level or two, all the classes are "balanced", etc. Very few of these changes are good for a TTRPG. Playing a video game, whether MMO, Action RPG or other, is just a different experience.

@this_epic_name

Жыл бұрын

As a somewhat new player, I ABSOLUTELY fell into the trap of scanning my character sheet whenever a situation was presented. Instead of thinking through it with my brain (through the lens of my PC) and asking what I could do out of the infinite possibilities, I instead went straight to my character sheet to see if there was anything that could potentially be useful or if anything sparked an idea, a la "oh I could use *this*!" But that enables a paralysis of sorts, because if you *don't* find anything particularly helpful in your character sheet, you fall into the trap of thinking there's nothing you can do in whatever situation you're in. Now, I try to think through things as a person (specifically, my PC) would. Then, if something on my character sheet *happens* to be helpful, so be it -- I'll use it. In the end, it's probably a matter of having more familiarity with the rules and the special things your PC can do -- and having it all at ready recall -- so that you're able to combine the infinite possibilities outside the book with those inside the book in a sort of "idea stew" that you can pluck from.

@murderyoutubeworkersandceos

10 ай бұрын

its not metagaming. Based on knowing character options, picking a class by looking at what it can do and how it development looks like is metagaming. Wanting a rogue to disable traps, open locks and sneak is metagaming. With that approach every lvl should be almost randomly assigned. Its not my fault 5e is a dumbed down trash that breaks its own rules to make monsters weaker, but assign them higher cr. Its not my fault u, knowing what a player character is capable of, decided to pitch 4 heroes against a single monster cr=avg party lvl, as if action economy itself wont kill your boss. Let them pick their path, u fix the monsters and fight team vs team.

@DavidSmith-mt7tb

10 ай бұрын

@@murderyoutubeworkersandceos what you're talking about is minmaxing, though people do often refer to it as metagaming. Though really, metagaming is using knowledge you as the player know that your character doesn't. I have no issue with minmaxing. I do it a ton. I'm talking more about looking at options beyond the expressed mechanics. Old school DnD expected this. It had rules for attacking when you use your action to do that, but you could do anything on your action, and players often did unusual things that were quite effective. The more you played, the more you as a player learned to do these types of things, and that is meta knowledge gained by playing the game with often multiple characters. Your character's ability to do something clever was based on your own as a player.

@murderyoutubeworkersandceos

10 ай бұрын

@@DavidSmith-mt7tb no, its not. Choosing a rogue to sneak isnt minmaxing, or metagaming. Reading the wizard spell list to pick the 2 spells u gain each lvl isnt metagaming, or minmaxing. If they often refer to that as metagaming, then they r fucking wrong. Characters r aware of the rules of the world - they know its good to take cover against arrows, or that their spells have saving throws they can work to improve. What options beyond the expressed mechanics?!

Even without death on the table, dice rolls have meaning because they change the story. Instead of slaying the dragon we were all knocked out, woke up as captured slaves and must find a way to escape. The stakes are different but are still meaningful. In most computer games non-hardcore mode you can't die and lose everything but they are still thrilling.

I agree with all the points you made. Which is why I'm switching to Shadowdark instead of 5E. :) Keep making great content Sir!

+++ totally agree. One of the best things about (1980s) Champions was that you earned very few experience points per session /adventure... (One to 3 points which you could allocate add you wished..characters started with 200 to 300 points less a bunch of disadvantages)... So you were improving by 1 percent per session..maybe. Though your character build was highly customized, you were largely who you were going to be in the game. Change the "build budget", change the type of game. I've come to prefer just playing "first level" characters and focus on role playing

@DUNGEONCRAFT1

Жыл бұрын

I played some Champions back in the 80s and early 90s. Fun game.

@stevendavis7628

Жыл бұрын

@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 - the developers were local here in the SF Peninsula which was extra fun and how I stumbled into the game. I still have my play test copy of Fantasy Hero and maybe Espionage :) In the 80s, D&D was far from inevitable..in fact it was kind of like now... there were so many weird and wonderful games that came out..and some that became huge like Call of Cthulhu...and many that still thrive. (Do you go back to "The City State of the Invincible Overlord"?) To me, classic Champions is still the best "Pimp my Character" system..but if you want to focus on role playing, give me a first level character and a good GM in any system.

Back in 81? 82 I had this wizard with that 1d4 hp that was like 2hp after roll. Get into my first dungeon, DM rolls a random encounter trap while my wiz is in a tight hallway and oil is poured out on the wizard followed by a flaming cinder (rolled straight out of the 1ed DM's guide). Fail save, dead. That was my first experience, it was rough but we didn't cry. I got over it and we moved on to have years of fun playing TTRPGs. That encounter will never be forgotten.

@DUNGEONCRAFT1

Жыл бұрын

It was a mighty death.

To highlight the philosophical changes, I was just reading an old AD&D Ravenloft Adventure today that actually said: "Don't have Senment kill any of the PCs (unless they do something really stupid)". "Stupid" was even italicized to emphasize it! Definitely a different mindset now.

"If death isn't on the table, the game has no meaning" only is true if the meaning of dnd is tension. I think it is often overlooked that you can play RPGs for other reasons like doing silly jokes or solving mysteries.

@DUNGEONCRAFT1

Жыл бұрын

Hmm I guess so, but my riddles have dire consequences if not solved. Lol

@michaellopate4969

Жыл бұрын

You don't even need death on the table. "The entire party is knocked unconscious, and groggily wakes up only to find the village you were defending nothing but a smoking ruin. The few survivors curse your name, and your reputation as a hero is severely tarnished." That sounds like a pretty dire consequence to me. You don't need DEATH on the table to have consequences for failure.

@jeremymullens7167

11 ай бұрын

The problem is really that if you follow the suggestions of 5e game design and dungeon master advice. Players can assume they can win every encounter presented because it’s been tailored perfectly for them. The players almost have to actively try to lose to fail. Anything else is a narrative decision by the DM

You nailed it. I had to change my 5e game a lot. The first session of 5e we ran RAW, everyone of the players voted it too easy and not satisfying. This was the green light for me to introduce drastic changes, which I did at the time. Currently I am working on adventures fir a different games system, and playing (as well as assisting in an OSE/AD&D based game). I will return to 5e house rules sometime, but having fun with other systems right now.

@michaellopate4969

Жыл бұрын

If 5e combat was too easy, that's your fault as a DM. Design more challenging and dangerous encounters.

@lauramumma2360

Жыл бұрын

@@michaellopate4969 I was using WotC 5e Box Starter Set and using their premade encounters and only the rules in the Box Set. I fixed what I needed to fix to have the kind of game everyone wanted.

I haven't run 5e in a very long time. I run shadowdark now with BX and 1E by my side for reference. And my uncle started running 2E again THAC0 and all... Its wonderful

A D&D session were you can’t is a story with participation. Even in the 80’s “Choose your Own Adventure,” there was a chance you could die.

@DUNGEONCRAFT1

Жыл бұрын

Loved those.

I think the reason a lot of dm's do not think 5e is deadly is because they are expecting each fight to be deadly when that is not how any edition of d&d worked past level 3. It has always been an attrition based game where you have several fights a day to wittle your hp down; 5e recomnds 6 encounters a day, and it gets pretty lethal pretty quickly with that way of running. I do not get why dm's blame the system when they are the ones choosing encounters and letting the players rest.

@blackstone777

Жыл бұрын

The simple fact the rules recommends a certain amount of encounters is wrong. I'll be the judge of that.not the rules.

@EmeranceLN13

Жыл бұрын

6 encounters per session is a lot to sit through time wise. When I ran 5e years ago, one combat was at least an hour. I can't imagine sitting through 6 hours of bead pushing.

@wushubear1

Жыл бұрын

When every fight takes and hour or 2 to resolve, as it does in 5e, 6 encounters is a bit much. If, on the other hand, you use a system where fights can be resolved in 5-15 minutes, now you can litter your dungeon with dozens of encounters: players can to make meaningful choices about which ones to engage, and attrition now also means something since your 3-4 hour play session isn't over after 1 fight.

@rynowatcher

Жыл бұрын

@@blackstone777 I mean, this is like saying d&d is a broken because you gave all your players +40 to all d20 rolls and you could not challenge players when you gave ignored the rules. The style of play is not for everyone, but it does what it is designed to do if you follow the advice it gives you.

@keithkannenberg7414

Жыл бұрын

@@EmeranceLN13 Maybe he means six encounters per game day. In other words, six encounters before the party can take a long rest (and magically be restored to full health and powers). The problem we're talking about is the players being able to nova - go full out in their one or two encounters and then be fully restored shortly thereafter. Attrition is impossible in that mode.

The "altered" rules for death saving throws was hilarious, thanks for the good laugh! Also 5e dm here and totally agreeing. 👍

@DUNGEONCRAFT1

Жыл бұрын

Thanks!

I fully agree with Prof DM. I was recently at a table where we had an encounter I was certain would end in a TPK. I was actually excited to go down in a blaze of glory, and was even thinking up new character ideas. However, the party not only survived but won the battle. I was actually disappointed, it didn't feel right, and I ended up leaving that table after the next session.

@LeFlamel

Жыл бұрын

Was the TPK avoided due to player/character skill or did the GM handwave? Cuz otherwise it kinda sounds like you just wanted to die lol

@klausdalgaard

Жыл бұрын

@LeFlamel The DM also expected a TPK, and also seemed excited about it. After that battle, and after a long rest, our next encounter was an adult Green Dragon. Took us 3 rounds...

@DUNGEONCRAFT1

Жыл бұрын

Exactly! It's happened to me.

@LeFlamel

Жыл бұрын

@@klausdalgaard dang that's embarrassing

I totally get this as a DM. Over COVID I was running three online games a week. First Group had 2 Players in it who decided that characters dying was a traumatic experience for them personally (their words) so they wanted death off the table. It got to the point in this group that if I presented any physical risk they cried foul and said I was trying to TPK them (I’ve never killed a character in any of these games). In the end they left the group and the smaller group were actually great to DM for. Second Group were more old school in their approach. I had monster combat encounters that would wipe the floor with them, making them pick and choose their battles and come up with the most hairbrained schemes to defeat the monsters. I loved DMing for this group and they had a lot of fun. Third Group were all power gamers who built their characters so strong and multi classed to get the juiciest features that combat was a maths nightmare of trying to calculate how high to go with the challenge rating just to create a halfway decent encounter. They never dropped below half hit points and would wipe the floor with monsters 5 CR higher than them - they were like tanks with magic powers, and would spend ages deciding how as a group how they should attack (I had to rule in the end that in combat, quick decisions are needed). They enjoyed the game but it was stressful for me to run. Learning from all this is I like the games where risk and death are a factor and players have to work as a team to support their individual weaknesses. Even then there will be challenges that they have to think outside the box to be successful in the encounter.

@DUNGEONCRAFT1

Жыл бұрын

Thanks for sharing.

When I was a kid sometimes on Easter Morning we received a music record album. I remember Color By Numbers, by Culture Club and Purple Rain, by Prince And The Revolution. Thanks for unintentionally giving me an excuse to regale that memory, Dungeon Craft.

Having one person in the table who doesn't want their character to die is understandable to me, and you could make exceptions, retire the character until they recuperate you can roll another one for the rest of this campaign; your old character can get together with new lower level characters in the next one. But it's a game where you fight monsters most of the time, there are other games out there. I think in tales from the loop the PC kids don't die. There are wrestling games, I don't think you are supposed to kill PCs there either.

@nowayjosedaniel

Жыл бұрын

No one wants their character to die. I mean, if it's a good one they like. That's what makes OD&D so good. Super lethality means everyone who loves their character will play smart. Too smart.

I absolutely love the redacted Death saving throw screen shot. Was amazing. On the size the game I am in has had a lot of the no death stuff happening and I hate it. If my character dies I just roll a new one but I am about the only one who does. Just this last game 2 characters in the party Died (or should have) when they wondered off alone. However, after both were confirmed dead, one of the players got all upset and stated they would not make a new character because they had spent hours making their character. (Side note actually making the character only took about 10 mins, what they spent hours on was the super elaborate backstory that has had next to no relevance in the campaign.) So the DM made some bs reason how when my character found their bodies a random scroll of True Resurrection happen be nearby. And Yes I might have tried to mess up the DM'S plans with my character as he wanted me to cast the Scroll but I am a Barbarian. So I did what a Barbarian does best. I built a fire and burned the scroll as an offering to the gods. I then carried both their bodies back to town where our DM has a lvl 20 Cleric npc (basically as long as our body can be recovered we will never die because of this cleric).

@Goshin65

Жыл бұрын

Oh my, that is awful. I don't think I could play in something that meta.

@daelusraine2989

Жыл бұрын

Rub the name off, all stats are reduced by 1... Wash, rinse repeat.

@alienspaceshaman

Жыл бұрын

should have had a funeral pyre then found a new group

@learyth

Жыл бұрын

This is precisely why I only ask for a couple of paragraphs of back story. Someone hands me pages of back story I hand it back. I don't have time to read your novel. If that's what you want, go write a novel instead. I just need the basics of who they are and where they come from. A hook or two into the campaign is nice but that's it. Your first level character isn't going to be related to the king or a long lost godling or whatever without an OK from the DM first so don't waste time writing that into the backstory. Keep it simple and concise.

@user-dd9dh9kw5c

Жыл бұрын

@@learyth In my games you dont get a backstory until level 3

There are also ways to make going down hurt without being death at 0 hit points. My house rules are that: A) Whenever a player goes down, they get a Bane die until they can complete a Long Rest (a negative d4, per the Bane spell), that increases in size (d6, d8, etc.) each time they go down. I also use Bane dice for attacks from vampires and other monsters with level drain, and those require powerful magic to remove. If they get past a d12, they die. B) Whenever a player goes down, they cross off a death save they can fail before they die, which resets after a long rest. It makes players think twice about their tactics when getting knocked down and getting back up has a real penalty attached to it. They're more complicated, than death at 0 hit points, but they serve their purpose and use the game's existing mechanics to do it.

@DUNGEONCRAFT1

Жыл бұрын

Thanks for sharing.

Purple Rain! 👍 I have also called 5e "The Math Game" starting at about 9th level. I have also noticed that many players become bored with 5e at about the 2 year mark, and start to look for something more challenging.

Flea as a bard with disadvantage on appearance, but advantage on every other CHA roll would be great.

"If death isn't on the table, the game has no meaning." - Professor DM Simple concept, but frankly this statement is pure genius. I find that most newer players (many of whom have only ever played 5e) are afraid of losing their characters so much.

I'm training up 2 young padawans currently, this will be required viewing. 8>D They will both also get a copy of B1 (real ones), a folder labelled 'expired characters', and cheat sheet where the first phrase listed is 'because I'm the Dungeon Master, that's why'. 8>D

I'm currently working on a video to review Mausritter, and that book said this: "The only way for danger to be meaningful is if the outcome of failure is meaningful." That game expects you to die. I take a lot of jabs at 5e on my channel, and there's always someone that will say "you're just bad at GMing" when I say it gives the players way too much power. Glad you made this video. Also, you mentioned nobody wants to GM for 5e. "Old Grognard Says" did a terrific video on just that a little while back. He did a bang up job putting into words what I had been ranting about. Do recommend.

@DUNGEONCRAFT1

Жыл бұрын

Thanks for sharing.

Play to your audience is what I do. I’m not trying to reinvent the wheel or give my players a game experience that they didn’t ask for, trying to arbitrarily add challenge doesn’t add meaning. Listening to the players and letting them choose the meaning and help them create it has worked best for me.

@DUNGEONCRAFT1

Жыл бұрын

As it should.

C&C is a blast, be warned search for traps on chests 😂😂😂 It’s liking gaming back in the 80’s! Thank you so much.

Good thing all the older editions of DnD still exist along with dozens of other fantastic OSR systems. If the people want a grittier, deadlier, experience, there's no shortage of other options.

When running Waterdeep Dragon Heist I asked the players if they would be ok if death was off the table for the game. If anyone was killed they would be out of the scene, gain a permanent lingering injury and return on one hit point in the next scene. Nobody objected and we played on. My intent was to run a short focused campaign and I didnt want character replacements to break the flow of the story. I need not have worried. Nobody came even close to dying at any time anyhow..

@DUNGEONCRAFT1

Жыл бұрын

Glad it went well. What else would you like to see?

Death is part of the game. If you really are concerned with having "That Guy" at the table put together some new house rules where players who die become ghosts of some sort. Give them something to do. Or let them be the "my character's father's brother's nephew's cousin's former roommate" player.

I'm pretty sure there are lots of ways to measure success and failure in a TTRPG besides the threat of death. ...But given that the core mechanics of DnD are fundamentally about answering the question of whether monsters or a group of heroes would win in a fight, it does seem odd to bend those mechanics to accomodate players who don't want that to be a question.

@DUNGEONCRAFT1

Жыл бұрын

Nice way to put it.

@vast3394

Жыл бұрын

@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 for this table i recommend fate, or coretex!

This is why I don’t usually use CR. What fun is it if you KNOW that you can beat the dragon? He’s ancient and you’re level 2. Do what you need to do. And yes he has an army of Kobolds who worship him. A literal army. Because he’s an ancient dragon. So yes, you might want to tread lightly and use honorifics when speaking to him, IF he will even listen to you before gobbling you up like a pizza roll.

I agree that 5E is a system built much easier to handle from a Player success standpoint, that said: Death is not the only failure state in an adventure. If a group agrees on what they want to go on, then they could be captured, fail to meet a deadline, lose a battle with their rivals, be stolen from. As long as they agree on what they want, there are many options for enjoyment.

Yup and as a player that grew up playing Advanced D&D 2e Ravenloft and 3.5. Myself and most the folks I play with realized we weren’t having much fun with 5E. There’s little to no challenge. So back to 2E and back to fun!

@INCIESSE

Жыл бұрын

I started with 3rd played 5 then got my hands on 2e and 1e ad&d and om never going back i love ad&d and the rules cyclopedia becmi era

@codychavez9839

Жыл бұрын

@@INCIESSE sounds like you found the magic of the old ways. Glad to know there’s more folks out there…

@aaronsomerville2124

Жыл бұрын

@@INCIESSE This is the way.

@retrodmray

Жыл бұрын

Absolutely 💯 right! 🤓👊

@daedalus1

Жыл бұрын

2nd Edition was the pinnacle of AD&D.

I think the death/injury thing depends entirely on the kind of game you're going for. *Failure* should always be on the table, *Defeat* should always be on the table, but there are settings and scenarios where random death just isn't in genre. For example, Super Heroes "die" all the time, but it's seldom due to bad luck or a poor decision. They die at the end of epic story arcs, or as a shocking opening to a new adventure. A Super Hero game where Spider-Man can catch a .45 slug to the lung from a random thug and bleed out just doesn't sit right with me. On the other hand, a Super Hero game where Spider-Man can get the snot kicked out of him, show up too late to save his girlfriend, see innocent people suffer because he screwed up? That's *perfect*! D&D has been a game of epic super heroes for decades at this point. I love a tense dungeon crawl, to be sure, but simply put that's not the fantasy most mainstream D&D players are looking for these days. I do agree that genuine challenge is tricky to achieve with 5e. I think I'd like to see a "Heroic Injury" system of some kind, where dropping to 0 HP gives you some kind of dramatic effect, a cool scar beneath the eye, the shattering of a magic weapon (which can be reforged at the end of a quest) or getting captured and spirited away to another area of the dungeon you must escape or be rescued from. Basically, defeat doesn't have to be permanent, but it should be both possible and dramatic.

@DUNGEONCRAFT1

Жыл бұрын

Thanks for taking the time to share.

"Never go against a Sicilian when death is on the line!"

One thing that's ironic and should be mentioned is actually how DEADLY 5e is at 1st level.

@danielsommerlykke9475

Жыл бұрын

Less deadly than other D&D versions, but it is a clear contrast to how boring combat becomes after levelling up.

@michaellopate4969

Жыл бұрын

@@danielsommerlykke9475 This might come as a shock, but your players shouldn't still be fighting a few goblins as they level up. Put them against appropriate challenges.

@danielsommerlykke9475

Жыл бұрын

@@michaellopate4969 That goes without saying. The difference is massive however - Dave Thaumavore did a video showing how a 5e 1st level fighter had the attack capabilities of a 5th level fighter from AD&D. More hp as well pr. level.

I pulled the punches a bit for my absolute noob players for the first session or two, so they could learn and get into it without the frustration of dying. They came close to dying a few times. I told them in session 0 that dying was possible, and there were no death saves. I think it worked out well. They didn't know when I spared them, and so they were in fear of the death whose hand I stayed for a time. Now, four sessions in, if the dice take them away, they are taken. But they are invested in the game and the outcome. They have a handle on the rules, and play with critical thinking.

@DUNGEONCRAFT1

Жыл бұрын

Cool!

Nice video, I haven't thought about the "80s guy rage quit so we need to make everyone win" sales point.

@kendiamond7852

Жыл бұрын

It doesn't get rid of the guy, now he just sits at the table indefinitely. At least with the rage quit you weeded out the weak

@lugh.i

Жыл бұрын

@@kendiamond7852 Kinda agree with you there, yeah. I don't think the "players are hard to kill" is entirely bad, it just kinda dishonest to build a system like that and don't let GMs and players, your clients, know the game is going to be like that from the start.

My favorite part is where PDM says he will “re-tape” the video. From one old fart to another, I salute you sir.

Oh boy you’re not kidding! Last session, our party of 5 11-12th level characters took on 4 modified iron golems AFTER completing a multi session battle against an adult red dragon with only a short test between. The biggest challenge was they started running out of spell slots. The ONLY reason we had any death saves was because sections of the floor opened up, dropping two PCs into lava after they failed dex saves. It was a great and memorable session, but it makes me wonder how I maintain tension after they take their next rest.

@DUNGEONCRAFT1

Жыл бұрын

Thanks foe sharing. I concur.

"A flock of pixies to turn the party into T-Rex's and make them fly... Common that's rediculous!" You just gave me a brilliant idea for my next monster encounter. My players will never see it coming! Thanks professor dungeon master!

In my group we are all begginers. We are playing one of the official modules wich in theory is balanced for 4 to 6 players with only 3 players that are not optimizing at all. for now we are finishing almost all enounters with an inch of our lives and we are having fun.

@Darkzen24

Жыл бұрын

The first 5 or so levels, in the base system, are decently balanced. When you add in all the additional options from the new books and/or higher level play, 5E begins to fall apart as a system.

@DUNGEONCRAFT1

Жыл бұрын

That's cool. If it's working for you, don't change it.

@ColdNapalm42

Жыл бұрын

The key reason it's working... 1) You are all still low levels I assume. Honestly, it's near impossible to break things before level 5. It is literally impossible before 3. The earliest one could break something is level 4. With 8 needed for not human. But a lot of these broken optimized things kick in at double digits. The problem is that it doesn't even get hard to break the game at those levels. 2) You are all still new. I assume even to TTRPGS in general. In which case, you won't even have the basics in your head about game breaking stuff so you won't know it until you run into it directly. Have fun while it lasts.

Great video! For some reason "Never go against a Sicilian when death is on the line!" Kept playing in my head, lol. Agree about the 5e power creep as well as the sentiment of "are you really playing if risk isn't involved?"

I have been working on supplemental rules. Basically, I lay them out in index cards, and a random table. One of the cards is a Reaper Card. When that card is in effect, there is a reaper present. That means no death saved and no resurrection. That way, we can explore different rules, there is an in game reason, and you don't have to stick to that rule for an entire campaign if you don't want to. It makes the game seem a little more like a board game, but my player seems to enjoy it

Makes me glad i have started playing dnd in 5e without the baggage of the old editions. Im on the players side when in run my games and am fans of the amazing things they are able to accomplish

@Xplora213

Жыл бұрын

Your standards for accomplishment might be far too low. It’s a game of pretend, that is designed to give players success rather than death. The DM is not against the player but their game can’t be very exciting if they can’t threaten the players.

@ColdNapalm42

Жыл бұрын

If you want a heroic storytelling experience with no risk to the players for your games, there are FAR better systems for that. With a lot less tedious dice rolls involved.

@Brik888

Жыл бұрын

@@ColdNapalm42 I Disagree, the Rolls are So exciting, I dont need another system to do what i want with my games

@Brik888

Жыл бұрын

@@Xplora213 I threaten my players very well during our games, two players nearly fell to their death in my last session after they just barely defeated a psychic monstrosity that was gonna eat em all. My players are just BAREly surviving the final chapter of icewind dale so far

@ColdNapalm42

Жыл бұрын

@@Brik888 Good for your table...but there comes a point in system mastery for 5E where combat becomes pointless. The same happened in 3.x/PF1. Hell to an even worse degree in those. AD&D and 2e AD&D had dice rolls that mattered...but one even mediocre, not even a bad dice roll meant death. Not exactly what one would call fun, except the grognards who mis-remembers things. 4E had a different problem. Well...different sets of problems. But at least combat mattered.

When the 5E DM learns they can just give dragons the Illithid brain removal ability and won't have to explain themselves to anyone they will have taken their first steps on the path to righteousness.

@evilminion4989

11 ай бұрын

First step to not having any players... yes, to righteousness... no.

photo of the death saving rolls rules being crossed out made me laugh so hard I choked on my lunch lol

My go-to homebrew for encounters is to present the players against tough monsters but halve the monster HP. It’s less of the chipping-away-indefinitely, and it’s lethal.

What do I think? I think you shouldn't be dissing my AD&D death's door rules, that's what I think! 🤪Seriously, I agree wholeheartedly - the easy-mode play of 5e can be frustrating... especially if you have a DM who leans into it in obvious fashion! I was once in a game where a player got disintegrated by the spell, he was done. The DM announces that his Goddess Patron came to him in the plane between worlds and gave him just enough hit points to continue the battle, and was restored. This was common. No one died. There were literally no stakes, he was just pushing us through the novel he'd written.

Wow Dan.. this was so WELL STATED! I too love a lot of things about 5E but everything you mention is why I don't play it.

@DUNGEONCRAFT1

Жыл бұрын

Lol. I was JUST watching your video on the DMG this morning. My Lost City is coming soon and your channel will get a shout-out.

@captcorajus

Жыл бұрын

@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 Oh wow, thanks! I was planning on shouting out this video with my next one! Great minds and all that!

In order to give my players (level 10) a challenge in my 5e game, about halfway through our campaign I stopped worrying about ability bonuses to all my monsters attacks and just add flat bonuses to all of their damage rolls. Mooks do regular damage plus 5, tough enemies do plus 10, and bosses do plus 15. I don’t have to have a bunch of spellcasters or monsters making 5 attacks a turn to do tons of damage. Really improved my game

In OSR, and older versions of D&D you played people who became heroes. 5E you play super heroes in plate armour right from the start. When I first played 5E, and saw all the healing options, I thought there would also be a optional rule for inserting little white boxes with a red cross into your game.

@DUNGEONCRAFT1

Жыл бұрын

Kinda yeah.

Great video. Everything you mentioned is one of the reasons I left 5e, not b/c I hate the game, I was just tired of dealing with all the written rules. I missed the dungeon aspect of the game we had back in the BX days. This has pushed me to games like Lamentations of the Flame Princess, ICRPG, EZD6, Shadow of the Demonlord, Shadowdark and Mork Borg. It is hard to call yourself the hero when you cannot die. Is it more heroic to be a demigod and win every time or to be the town peasant who leaves the fields of their homeland, braves death and saves the village? Outside of the TTRPG sphere, we would have a hard time following a story where we knew the hero would have no chance to die, even Superman has to worry about Kryptonite.

@DavidSmith-mt7tb

Жыл бұрын

In Swords and Wizardry I played a paladin with mid stats except his HP because I roll high on d8s. I played him like a paladin. Dude was like first to the fight, leave no man behind, etc. And there were numerous battles where he survived rounds of melee combat with only a few HP. One time I bumrushed a group of orcs at 1hp cause it needed to be done and killed them all and somehow just didn't get hit. The possibility for instant death made those moments epic.

@Imhal13

Жыл бұрын

Exactly. The complexity combined with nerfing any "Feel bad" portions of the game means that it's all just an amusement park ride that is slow and dull to run. I've found a new love for fantasy games by leaving 5e behind.

@keithkannenberg7414

Жыл бұрын

Playing an unkillable demigod was a lot of fun when I was ten years old. I had a 300th level paladin who wielded a sun sword. But then I grew up.

@Xplora213

Жыл бұрын

@@keithkannenberg7414yep, I think a lot of the old guard played as kids and know what immaturity is… the new game caters to that.

@DavidSmith-mt7tb

Жыл бұрын

@@Imhal13 well said. I'm actually a big number cruncher meta gamer type. Just cause I enjoy the puzzle of optimizing and/or the novelty of finding bizarre play styles, making stuff work that shouldn't work. But I don't want the game to be easy. I just want to play it the best I can. I've honestly always enjoyed more open leveled systems though, cause I hate getting features that are kinda meh after leveling for 2 months. In those games you can often puck up a stat boost or perk every couple weeks. You're always getting something yet it takes a long time to get overall way more powerful, so the game stays challenging.

I'm DM ing 5E for my daughter and her friends. There have been many times where they easily could have been snuffed out. I could see it becoming more lop sided now that they're at 5th level.

In early edition of D&D players had to solve all the challenges, not the characters, so "builds" did not exist. In 3rd to 5e characters solve everything with their stats and "options", so players actually play by making "the build". The moment of decition making is completly shifted.

With all the WotC debacle , I turned to CyberpunkRED and wow was it refreshing to see the nervous and deadly system play put. FNFF sure has its slower moments, but it was very refreshing as a newbie at ttrpg in general

I'll be running The Fantasy Trip for my group in a little bit. Polar opposite to 5e. But if it only takes five minutes to make your character, death is a little less traumatic ;)

@Hugh839

Жыл бұрын

That's like the funnels that are all the rage now. Make a heap of characters in seconds, then laugh as they get mowed down in hilarious fashion! 🤣

@ColdNapalm42

Жыл бұрын

Umm...but it only takes me 5 min to make a 5E character too...

@priestesslucy3299

Жыл бұрын

5 minutes to create the character, 50 minutes of role-play to immerse myself into her identity and become attached so I can enjoy the experience.

@priestesslucy3299

Жыл бұрын

​​​​@@ColdNapalm42 same story in 3E and PF1 as well tbh, level 1 characters are lightning fast if you know the game or have the assistance of someone who does.

@ColdNapalm42

Жыл бұрын

@@priestesslucy3299 however long you play to get attached is kinda irrelevant to the system. Nor is the time honestly. I've been attached to characters after 10 min or not cared one bit after years of play.

I mean, ppl play games for experiences outside of the mundane real life. Winning is important since losses are lessons to help you win. Imo DnD is to provide a heroic experience which is why our skills and abilities even at the start are more powerful than common folk within the stories. Play the DnD you want and worry less about where society tries to push you.

Some people like survival games, some people like heroic fantasy. You ever read Conan? The guy was unstoppable. That's the feel 5e players are going for. There are other games where you can make multiple characters to replace your dead ones.

So, so true. My most memorable games of D&D were when a character died. Not died then came back because of a revivify spell. Each time it meant something. First time was when my character who spent half the campaign plotting against the others because he was manipulated by a sentient sword, dies at the hands of his once companions after fighting to redeem himself and failing to convince them. Another was holding the line as a barbarian who was all about battle and honor so his companions could escape. Or as a DM when a player died the party went on a quest to find a cleric that could resurrect them because one of the players that lived fell in love with the one who died and never told them.

You nailed it with the reason DM are in short supply for 5E. No wonder the "paid DM" demographic is so large now. Waiting for the new DnD to offer AI DM. 😊

I can personally attest to how scary level drain was in the 1990s. I'm adding it back in to my Shadowdark game but changing it to XP drain. It is still scary, but not quite as harsh as the old level drain mechanic. Lesser draining undead or effects are 1d4 XP. Vamps and other major undead will do 1d6+ XP.

@nathan8812

Жыл бұрын

D4/d6 xp......yep scary, when you have 50,000 xp.

@INCIESSE

Жыл бұрын

I like the idea of xp drain. Its harsh enough to be meaningful but soft enough that you dont need to hold up a sign that says "dont get hit by this thing it will de-level you"

@keithkannenberg7414

Жыл бұрын

@@nathan8812 I haven't read the rules but I strongly suspect that Shadowdark players don't have thousands of XP. I imagine it's more like DCC, where 1000 XP will get you all the way to 10th level. In D&D you'd have to make this d4 x 100 XP or x 1000 to have comparable threat.

@megasquidd

Жыл бұрын

@@nathan8812 yeah in Shadowdark you get get maybe 6-7 xp per session and it takes 10 XP to get to 2nd level. 20 more to get to 2nd level. If I was using a high XP game maybe multiply by 100 to make it apply.

I've recently started DMing some Tier 3 (11-16) for my local adventure league group, and the thing about the monster's damage not keeping up with the player's HP really rings true. One module I ran had a powered up ancient copper dragon as its final encounter and aside from its breath weapon that was able to do over 100 damage to multiple characters, its regular claw/bite attacks were disappointingly weak compared to the massive HP pools of the party. Another adventure I ran I think I ended up basically tripling the power of each of the monster groups and the party still ran through them with barely a scratch. Actually posing a challenge to a party at this level without homebrewing the rules requires some really massively over-the-top power levels for the monsters.

I know this isn't the first time we've seen the redacted 0HP page, but man, it gets me everytime.

@DUNGEONCRAFT1

Жыл бұрын

I included it again because not everyone sees every video. Thanks for watching every one.

Thanks for another great video PDM!, when death is on the table its exciting, fun and squeezing the creativity out of the players. Truth is, we took a break from 5E and playing Shadowdark and Call of Cthulhu and having a blast. The real magic is to play with fragile characters.

@DUNGEONCRAFT1

Жыл бұрын

Thanks!

I'm only taking it easy on my players because they're new. I've told them you have a couple more sessions to absorb the rules and then it's absolutely cut throat. Great video, professor!

@DUNGEONCRAFT1

Жыл бұрын

Thanks.

Death at zero HP is a simple and intuitive rule. In a game with healing potions/spells however, there's the possibility for saving a character who has taken a mortal wound before they bleed out. Few wounds are instantaneously deadly. It game terms this can be rounds or even a turn from the time they are hit until their actual death, depending on rate of blood loss. Negative HP for our group used to indicate unconscious characters who are in the process of dying, but can be saved in the middle of a fight if someone forgoes an attack to save them. It acted as a timer that counted down to death. 5e Death Saves was another attempt to address the same issue.

I do agree: the presence of risk (in various respects) is what makes games interesting, and what makes them games. The basic mechanic of all games (except the Lottery!) is: you win some, you lose some. Though distance and schedules have made it impossible to play for a while, the game I've had going most recently has been an interesting experiment: the players all started at 10th level, so that they could do some interesting things to start with. Even despite that, in each adventure we've done where combat was involved (more than half of them thus far), at least one player nearly died each time. No, they didn't quite get to 0 HP, but they were close, and they felt vulnerable in the process...particularly when the cleric wasn't there, and she often wasn't! However, fun was had by all, and they all want to play again (some of them were essentially brand new to the game, and I figured the higher level was a way to get them to learn the mechanics faster by necessity), so I hope that we can sometime soon!

@DUNGEONCRAFT1

Жыл бұрын

Thanks for sharing.

Why is death at -10hp in ad&d the worst rule? Genuinely curious. I always thought it struck a nice balance but I know I could be missing something important.

@flavorgod

Жыл бұрын

I agree. If you die at 0 that means your state is binary, either standing or dead. You are never unconscious.

The best way we found to fix our 5e game was to drop 5e and start trying out other systems.

@buenokitty3497

Жыл бұрын

100% Preach this ish!

@nathanmorgan3647

Жыл бұрын

This. There are so many games out there that are equal, and often superior, to dnd

I got back into the hobby through 5e, so kudos to them for that. We play BECMI modules these days, using Basic Fantasy rules system. I have a shelf full of 5e books, but a Lost City PDF, and a cheap Basic Fantasy rulebook kept our game group occupied for over 12 months. We must have about 4 character deaths down there, and all the players still turn up weekly for games. Death 1. A first level character (dwarf) got down on his hands and knees and poked a glow beetle. Chomp. Death 2. Players decided to take a couple of hours to dig through the wall after checking their hand drawn map and realising they were 10 feet from a tunnel they wanted to get to. Random encounter with thouls resulted, and the brave Dwarven fighter Clairval was killed. Death 3. Talia the warrior maiden sacrificed her life so that the rest of the party could flee from Zargon's lair. Death 4. Dolthur the shadow elf was eaten by Zargon when the party went back to slay him. Death 5. Another dwarf died, dragged into the depths, and drowned in the lake near the lost city. Death 6. Our cleric Sakil sacrificed his life, so that his deity would raise a slain party member. A couple of weeks ago my 10 year old daughter charged her character head long at a red dragon in the finale of Horror on the Hill. Her cute little halfling rogue was burnt to a crisp. It was tears before bedtime. It was awesome. Denial, grief, anger all in an intense 15 minute period. I was taking body blows, and kidney punches from her as I carried on with the rest of the group. Kids want to play games with adults, but they don't get a free pass at my table. The party will travel to a nearby city to see if the halfling can be raised......

@DUNGEONCRAFT1

Жыл бұрын

Thanks for sharing.

@moodymac

Жыл бұрын

@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 No problem. Thanks for making videos.

Do you mean we can transform our PCs into a flock of flying T-Rex? Yes, please! Where do I sign!!?

“Players rage-quitting bc you killed their precious character.” Believe it or not, there was a Scooby Doo villain whose motivation was exactly this.

This is why I play Deathbringer with Basic Fantasy (streamlined B/X). Deathbringer keeps it simple but allows for player creativity and innovation, while using ascending AC, d20 roll high, and Advantage/Disadv (the best part of 5e). The peril is very real, but at the same time you've got Deathbringer Dice (bonus dice) to help out if you just hit some bad rolls at a crucial moment... but DD are a finite resource! When your luck runs out you're likely to be making a new character. It strikes the right balance... PC death is a strong possibility, but doesn't happen as often as it did in B/X... where I buried more PCs than ever survived to 3rd level.

@DUNGEONCRAFT1

Жыл бұрын

Thanks for purchasing DB. I'm currently contemplating reducing the ability scores from 6 to 3-4. Thoughts? Do you care or is it more important that it align with already existing D&D material?

@Goshin65

Жыл бұрын

@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 I started with B/X back inna day, so I'm not married to 5e standards... I was accustomed to bonuses running +1 to +3 (if you were super lucky). I also don't use 5e adventures much as I don't care for most of them. As it is, I limit new L1 PCs to a max of 5 in any one attribute to start, more in line with old-school. I do like that DB PCs are competent from day 1, but reducing max stat to 4 would still leave them a lot more capable than B/X PCs were. Do you plan to leave build points at 8 or reduce those also, I wonder?

@Sunwolfe

Жыл бұрын

@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 Do it!

@anathamon

Жыл бұрын

@@DUNGEONCRAFT1get rid of charisma! Nothing prevents a player from role playing like the old “but i don’t have a high persuasion/deception/intimidate skill” excuse.

@DUNGEONCRAFT1

Жыл бұрын

@@anathamon kinda true

The most important thing for you to know, PDM, is that The Fixx are touring again. Early 80's music rules.

@DUNGEONCRAFT1

Жыл бұрын

The Fixx were good.

Wait, that word "ssllooooww" at 7 minutes 20 seconds: that sounded like Deathbringer! Lol

I'll probably never get my group to try OSR again, but yesterday we had our first Pathfinder 2E session and almost ended in a TPK due to our own stupidity. I loved it, and I'm on the edge of my seat to see what happens next. This sort of tension has been missing from my 5e games, and they've become boring. That tension that we all experienced yesterday made me realize what I didn't like about 5e.

@michaellopate4969

Жыл бұрын

Why do you think that that can't happen in 5e? Maybe you're just not running 5e very well.

@TheReasonableGamer

Жыл бұрын

@michaellopate4969 In 5e, if a TPK occurs, rarely do I feel like it's something I did wrong. Oftentimes, it's my build, or the encounter was just too hard, or the DM miscalculated the CR stuff. I never look back at an encounter and think, "If only these 10 things were done..." Rather, it's "I have no idea how we were supposed to win. Guess the dice hated us." Or more often than that, "Gee that was easy. Bringing an enchanter really makes this game cake." Maybe you're right. Maybe my GM sucks at running 5e, but kicks ass at running PF2. Can you explain to me how a GM with 10 years' experience withDMing 5e sucks, but has us on the edge of our chairs with his first PF2 session?

@michaellopate4969

Жыл бұрын

@@TheReasonableGamer I couldn't say for sure, but its certainly possible that the unfamiliarity with the system made everything feel more exciting because you didn't know what was going to happen. Maybe after 10 years of Pathfinder you'll find yourself in the same spot. Because in terms of encounter design, pathfinder doesn't have much more going on than 5e. If your DM is magically better at pathfinder, something else is going on beyond differences in game mechanics.

@TheReasonableGamer

Жыл бұрын

@michaellopate4969 But I don't have unfamiliarity with either system. I personally have a couple years under my belt GMing PF2, and ive played and DMed 5e since it came out. It was my GM's first time. But let's assume unfamiliarity. I still never had that feeling in 5e, even when it was unfamiliar. My son just learned both systems, and he agrees that Pathfinder requires more tactics to be successful in combat. I don't see how encounter designs can be similar, when the rules are drastically different, unless you homebrew some PF2 conditions and rules into 5e, and if you do that, you may as well just play PF2. Action economy means different things in either system. CR means different things in either system. Concealment, invisible, stealth, and failed saving throw all mean different things. Due to this, PF2 encounter design is more varied RAW.

I think once WotC started selling 15 level campaign books instead of individual modules, they decided they had to make the characters live long enough to see the entire campaign. 5E healing, rest and Death Save mechanics reflect that.

@DUNGEONCRAFT1

Жыл бұрын

Interesting analysis.

@michaellopate4969

Жыл бұрын

@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 TSR sold entire campaigns in 2e. The Night Below box set went from level 1 to 17 in a single grand campaign. And that's just one example.

I started my son on 5E with the excellent Phandelver set, because D&D is important. I like the character survivability- for children. Soon, I'll switch to Savage Pathfinder. It's there in the name-Savage Worlds for swingy fights and nailbiting adventures. :)

@DUNGEONCRAFT1

Жыл бұрын

For kids that can work.

I absolutely love the system in Knave 2e, damage at 0 means damage to your inventory and slots are replaced by injuries. I've never seen terror in the eyes of my 5e party so real. Of course, I've since adapted the system for 5e mwahahaha.