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@WACONimages

Жыл бұрын

Great Video again! You might be interested maybe in German small audio company Abacus-Electronics. Minimalistic looks but a way of their own with audio engineering. From quiet affordable but great sounding till a step up in price. You can find some very good German reviews.

@quantumchang4410

Жыл бұрын

I thought you were gonna talk about monoblock amplifiers.

@billpaxton1345

Жыл бұрын

@P T Buying a separate sound processor is the way around that for having multi channel setups for home theater etc. just WAY more expensive and "intense" if you dont know what youre doing

@billpaxton1345

Жыл бұрын

@P T oh yeah, a separate processor is sometimes better for balanced connections and running higher power amps blah blah blah.... Thousands of dollars more for it and "accessories".

@billpaxton1345

Жыл бұрын

@P T arcam avr? that good? ill check price on that... nice heads up, thanks

When I upgraded the power cable on my can opener the difference was night and day. The cans now open with such musicality and holographic depth that it brings tears to my eyes.

@asx1248

Жыл бұрын

Those tears can join the tears you shed when you paid for the power cable too!

@Error2username

Жыл бұрын

Thats amazing, do you regulary hear music in everything?

@superd222tube

Жыл бұрын

Try a new charging cord for your phone. When its used as a source through a streamer and DAC to a cheap Chinese amp, you can’t hear any difference. Quite remarkable!

@ashman0071

Жыл бұрын

and then you got clean power and good gear and realized you ain't funny no more .......

@cheapaudioman

Жыл бұрын

Hey now. When I upgraded my power cable on my microwave it made Korn. So I’m pretty happy about that

I gave up after the first point. So integrated amps are "expensive" because dealers, markups etc. And that doesn't apply to separates?? Plus I'm yet to see any situation where an integrated amp costs more than an equivalent pre/power setup, so for those of us on a limited budget, integrated is often the best bang for buck.

@eddihaskell

Ай бұрын

Stand-alone amps are more versatile and sound better.

Integrated amp bad, got it. My next purchase, an integrated amp. Seriously.

Forever chasing "ideal" separates can be even worse than chasing the ideal integrated amp because there are so many more separates to chase. Unfortunately, the only way to know whether you are moving up is often to actually buy the unit in question. That can get expensive since dealers also make their margins on separates as well as on integrateds. Most manufacturers don't sell direct.

@phillamoore157

Жыл бұрын

EXACTLY! I’ve got no problem with separate components per se….but, it’s impossible to know what to pair, and why, and the money that can be spent trying to figure it out can get obscene. This conversation is almost entirely moot, given how subjective “better” is, and short of reading reviews, you really have no idea what to buy and pair with what, and why. Growing up in the 70’s, there was none of this, yet our music sounded great.

@JustBrowsing777

Жыл бұрын

I agree that for most people an integrated amp is probably a better buy, less fuss and less risk in many ways. If you're very knowledgeable and particular about what you want, then separates my be a better way to go. I don't believe in generalizations as much as in identifying which use case is better for you. I'm on the fence right now myself as for which route to take 😂

@batape1965

Жыл бұрын

Some people LOVE chasing audio "perfection". If you are happy with your system, that is all that matters.

@ziqfriq

2 ай бұрын

Yeah, what was said about dealer margins and manufacturer margins applies equally to separates, so that argument is irrelevant.

@eddihaskell

Ай бұрын

Why? You can purchase a superb Emotive power amp for about $500 new, less refurbished. Remeber, the only controls are on and off. I have one and it is powerful and open. Depending on what you listen to, you might not need a full preamp. Do you listen to vinyl? If you don't, you can get get away with a passive preamp which will distort the sound the least-- the only control you need is your volume pot. I'll make an exception for an integrated tube amp-- just make sure it has a preamp out function. The once from China have been getting good reviews and are very affordable. Read reviews here on KZread.

ive had integrated amps that sounded better than my separates - ive had seperates that sounded better than my integrateds - it really depends on where u are at in your audiophile journey and where u are in your life - it changes like the seasons in the northeast - when i have tubes - i want solid state - when i have integrateds - i want separates - when i have separates i want integrateds - when i have class d - i want class a - there is no rhyme or reason to want i want at any given time

@gamblers220

Жыл бұрын

Spot on! The joy of Circle Logic at its best - too funny and can very much relate

@dennishill290

11 ай бұрын

I...feel ya...Bro....lol... !

@jimnagel5611

9 ай бұрын

I AGREE - A PROPERLY DESIGNED AMP WILL HAVE A POWER SUPPLY FULLY CAPABLE OF DELIVERING MORE THAN ENOUGH CLEAN POWER TO AT LEAST IT RATED WATTAGE -- WITH A KNOWN REPUTABLE AUDIO COMPANY THIS IS MOSTLY A NON ISSUE -- AS IS THE ISOLATION ASPECT -- AND SOME OF THE BETTER INT AMPS DO HAVE SEPARATE POWER SUPPLIES FOR EACH CHANNEL -- THEY'RE HIGH DOLLAR -- BUT THEY SOUND IT TOO -- LISTEN TO THE VIOLA LABS CHORALE IF YOU GET A CHANCE -- IT WAS END GAME FOR ME -- ALL I'LL EVER NEED

@paradoxstudios6639

8 ай бұрын

You might need NAD, I still have my integrated from 1999, however the left channel goes a little silent from time to time, it had the most perfect satisfyingly sound an audiophile could ever crave, but looking at new NAD they seem so far out, class D only, no more analogue, everything streaming, they seem to be straying away from their old philosophy, I might go with Vincent Audio, Rotel.

@apolloares6114

7 ай бұрын

As an audiophile I want to have it all, even though I don’t need it.

I’ve had separates since the 80’s. Lots of old carver and a piece or two from Phase linear units! My first setup was a receiver from radio shack in 1980 I think it’s the STA-2100d. It still works too! Great video today Randy.

I will have to totally agree with you Randy. I have gone with separates 5 months ago and it's been the best. Currently running a modi multibit for DAC, using the Schiit Vali 2 ++ for the headphone/preamp, and using the Douk Audio ST-01 Pro for amp, and Sony SSCS 5 Bookshelf speakers. The clarity has been so nice and I haven't even upgraded the tubes on the Douk Audio yet. Now granted this is near field. This does give me a better understanding of what I would want once I start my journey to get my audio den set up. Next step is to get a Valhalla 2 from Schiit. Then I can have my Vali at work haha

Thanks for all your wonderful content! There are reasons to buy integrated amps as well. Of many, few are: 1. To save rack/vertical space 2. To save money - well, this goes both ways because separates (pre amp + power amp combo) are more expensive. btw, not many companies now a ways produce pre amps 3. To simplify set up - btw, we can still hook up DACs with int amps 4. To enjoy good quality audio - quality/sound of integrated amp is as good as separates Having said all that above, indeed, if having more options/customizations are what you need, separates are the way to go.

@erynne936

Жыл бұрын

i chose an integrated amp for now as space is a constraint for me, i love all the neat separates options and tube amps but i don't really have the horizontal space in my current arrangement to be putting these neat little guys all over the place

In my experience separates is just about always more expensive than integrated, even when buying used. That's why I've been looking for a used M5si or M6si, or Atoll in200 or in300, maybe even an Exposure 3510 if I hit the jackpot and find one, then add a good dac with it, probably the Geshelli dac considering it's great price and voila.

I've got a Marantz 1040 I bought for $150 in 1976. A Mac Mini plugged into a Topping E50, a Technics turntable, CD transport & a Marantz cassette deck from the 80's. All pushed through a pair of Polk or Infinity speakers. Spreading that investment over 45 years makes me the 'Cheap Audio Man'. And it all sounds great! I took your recommendation for the Topping E50 because of the remote. It's nice when I'm feeling lazy.

@chinmeysway

3 ай бұрын

nice. i dig the old receivers lots. oh what is the mac mini’s roll?

I thought the premise of your channel was to review budget components that can produce audiophile-like sound. The cheapest way for non-audiosnobs, uh, I mean non-audiophiles to build a good-sounding system is to do what I did: Yamaha A-S301 INTEGRATED AMP $349.95 Polk Audio ES20 Bookshelf Speakers currently $319 Yamaha CD-S300 CD Player $150 BlueDento BLT-HD Bluetooth Adapter $110 Sounds great to this non-audiophile musician and music lover.

I totally disagree. The quality you get from the best companies is outstanding and good value.

I have owned both receivers and integrated amps and loved both but I have been a separates guy for over 30 years. I had the Carver M500t power amp paired with an NAD preamp for most of those 30 years. I recently got the Schiit Freya+ preamp and I pair that with the Jeff Rowland 125 power amp. I'm a happy camper 🙂

@petermartin9494

9 ай бұрын

You would be, if you had to put up with a NAD pre amp for all those years...

@ziqfriq

2 ай бұрын

And I'll bet that Jeff Rowland power amp set you back a lot more than just about any integrated you could buy, which was one of my points. Even an entry level power amp, if there is such a thing.

@nelsono4315

2 ай бұрын

@@ziqfriq the Rowland was the most expensive piece of audio gear I've purchased. It did not bother me because I had the money and wanted an amp of superior quality. At my age it will be the last amp I purchase. No regrets whatsoever.

Totally agree! Not only that, the preamp, the DAC, the logic, the display, the input connections (some have LAN connections), and the amp, are all run on the same transformer and power supply. So it is not just about upgrading cables or upgrading power supplies. Also power of the amplifier section is going to be compromised and limited due to size, weight, and heat constraints. Plus, if the amp dies, everything dies.

I got started with separate components via the used audio market some 25 years ago. It took some time, but I was able find components that made huge improvements to my sound. You don't have to pay full price to build a great system! Thanks Randy!!! 👍

@toddlaure2983

11 ай бұрын

What sites or shopping places did you go to?

@ginom407

11 ай бұрын

@@toddlaure2983 US Audio Mart and Audiogon. Happy Hunting!!!

During my HiFi journey over 55 years, I used all kinds of Amps systems/setups eventually I had NAD S-300 integrated the cost at that time was around 2800US however I was able to get it for 1200US absolute quality top notch had it for 20 years. As I got older I got tired of the cable salad and went for an all-one box that can be upgraded by Module meaning it is flexible including BlueOS and today Integrated is pretty good. I'm in a stage of my life where I don't need to upgrade anymore had enough of it. It is a personal choice and I guess when you are younger you like to play around which I did way back. You forget to mention with a Module option you can keep updated and of course, below 1000US you have limited options. But for around 1800US you can get something decent.

I've had a parasound halo A21 paired with an Atoll Pr300 preamp for the last 7-8 years, I think. I love this pairing and didn't really expect to better them. Then I came across a Luxman 505uxII on audiomart for just $1600. I had been wanting to try a luxman, so I grabbed it. I must say, I never really knew what layered soundstage was till I hooked up that luxman. My dali helicons sound even better, and that was already fantastic. I will keep my separates, but move them to my 2nd system. Just to say, some integrated really are amazing and compare quite well with separates. Love your channel, btw.

Well,it depends. I got a Schiit Ragnorak 2 (the just an amp version without a DAC or phono stage.) I spend half the year listening to the Raggy, and then the other half of the year I use it as a pre-amp with a Decware tube amp. Fun. And, the main reason I went that route is ease of use, space saving, etc. AND there is plenty of options to upgrade the digital front end or analog front end.

Hey Randy, great video, I appreciate you vouching for separates. In case you're not aware, I wanted to tell you about Audiolab's current integrated amps. They have a cool feature where you can change the mode from serving as an integrated to strictly serving as a pre-amp or power amp. This allowed me to upgrade it from serving as an integrated to becoming a pre-amp with a Modi dac and Emotiva power amp.

@ziqfriq

2 ай бұрын

That trick has actually been around a long time. My second integrated amp was a Kenwood KA2002. When I upgraded to a Harmon Kardon Citation 12 power amp I found the Kenwood didn't put out enough voltage to drive it comfortably. But that was then. Built a Dynakit pre and never looked back.

@eddihaskell

Ай бұрын

I have the Audiolab 6000 CD Transport and it sounds amazing with my old classical CD collection. For a DAC, I am using my 25 year old MSB DAC (with a full Nelson upgrade) with a separate power supply) -- it sounds incredibly well detailed. What I cannot figure out as an IT guy is how a 25 year old DAC can sound better than a new one. MSB does have incredibly expensive DACS right now, and it is the construction of the devices which must be making a difference. If you need a DAC consider purchasing a used MSB Link DAC with the matching power supply, they can be had a very good price.

The issue of separates was important for me because I wanted an equalizer in the setup. These days integrated amps have no tape loops and as Randy explained, few have pre-outs. There are very few affordable pre-amps from Schiit, NAD, Emotiva and maybe even Benchmark Labs (that one is around $2500). Thus I went with the Freya+ that has quite a few features for a low price. Integrated amps made sense back in the 1970s and 80s when people had a plethora of sources (vinyl, CDs, cassettes, reel-to-reel) and it made sense to have a single unit with multiple loops. Most of them were also receivers since FM radio was still big.

One thing to look for on integrateds or receivers, vintage or new is the Pre Amp Out / Power Amp In jumper found on many models. It is usually a metal U shaped metal bar. I call it the nail. Pull the nail and install just about any RCA cable known to man (even the cheap audio man). You will be amazed. I discovered this trick in the late 70's when I was in audio retail.

I dug the video! Plus I always admire the Justice poster behind you. Anyhow, I have a video idea for you: the best value system builds at $1,000, $2,000, and $5,000. It would be fun to hear your picks and why you chose them.

I lot of us have integrated amps that we purchased 10-20 years ago, back when they did not include digital circuits, DACs, etc, and have big beefy power supplies. I still have my Marantz KI Pearl Lite and it does a great job paired with my Topping DAC. Its also the best bang for my buck.

@rainasong8712

5 ай бұрын

I was going to mention that being a good option.

I’m saving up for the Peachtree Audio Nova 150, and this amplifier has the ability to change the phono input stage to a normal fixed line input if you wish to use your own phono stage. It has a really good DAC that’s capable of double DSD. The Nova 150 has a generous power output of 150 watts into 8 ohms and 250 watts into 4 ohms of class D power, and has a S/N ratio of 110dB. This amplifier does have variable pre outs as well as a fixed loop designed for room correction, which I’ll be using for my cassette decks. I don’t have the room for separates, but I can see what you’re saying though.

It is so much fun to watch the video and read the comments on anything controversial like this. I have had receivers, integrated and separates and I must say I think the separates were the best to me.

There are many integrated amps that are just preamp and amp. Some will allow you to add a DAC or a phono preamp or streamer a la carte. Denon and Marantz both make integrated amps and Yamaha has an extensive line. Including the s801 which for under $1,000 delivers quite a lot. Especially if you're going to be using Sony CS5s or lower line elacs or Polk's, going separate is not needed unless you do plan to upgrade speakers at some point

@trudimcleod5042

Жыл бұрын

I agree. Even Schiit has an integrated named the Ragnarok 2 for around $1500. The phono preamp and the USB dac are accessories on this one....and it does have preouts and headphone amp to booth!

Have i understood right that definition of integrated amplifier is as simple as combination of pre- and power amplifier? And DAC, phono stages, etc are just extra features on integrated amplifier?

Enjoyed this segment Randy, I’ve always been an advocate of separates depending on the person, for myself I generally do the same because DACs and Bluetooth, some times even phono stages eventually become obsolete or more so age out. I’ve seen situations where a particular area fails in integrated amp or receiver and the whole thing is basically damned ! Good stuff sir👍🏽🙏🏽✌🏽

Yeah, no. Can't agree. Randy, you are getting away from the premise of cheapaudioman. There are a lot of great integrated amps from Emotiva, Yamaha, Denon, Onkyo, Marantz, Cambridge, NAD, Sony, etc. Integrated amps solve a lot of problems for music lovers. They are a simple solution for those of us who are tired of shopping for separate components. Technically speaking, there's just one power supply to covert to DC, signal pathways are much shorter (don't need all those external cables) and internal components are matched and shielded. The big chip makers provide proprietary designs at bulk prices to the big brands, hence why they don't disclose the DAC chip source. Big brands can work on smaller margins, so there's still room for retailers/ shops to earn a buck and be competitive. Yes, one can *almost* always build a better sounding system with separates, but it takes a lot of time, trial and error to buy/try/cry/sell, then start over. YT channels like yours are a big help, but then doesn't your business model rely on testing a lot of separates? (Just sayin'.) In the end, the consumer is still spending his/her/their bucks to sort out what works best for them.

I started my audiophile journey back in the 70's with a Marantz 2245 + JBL speakers + Dual turntable. I soon graduated to separates and quickly learned the costly lesson that all pre-amps are not created equal. LOL. I totally agree with you about separates, but I have returned to integrated for simplicity's sake (TA1). Also, I bought a power conditioner purely for device protection from dirty power/spikes ($300+). I was completely surprised when I plugged my WiiM Mini and J2 DAC into it and turned them on. The sound improvement was very noticeable and totally unexpected but thoroughly loved. I guess this would be in the neighborhood of your power cord statements. Keep up the good work Randy, your videos are very much appreciated.

Dang, some high-end. audiophile stuff noted in video. The video is applicable today with great buys on good, compact separates easily available. Edit Nov. 2023 My system is half-vintage overall, and strictly last old school type. I am staying with my 1988 ish NAD 100w(?) integrated I got in thrift store in 200x. Necessary refurb now will be $1100. It has all the features, 4 line in, MM/MC phone in and 2 tape loops and power I want for a small apt. DAC and any streaming in a modern integrated are not needed.

This video is essentially correct, factual…but as a person who has had both separates, integrated amps and full blown receivers, me personally prefers receivers. I have a MAC 4100 and nice Kyocera 651, and both are fully satisfying to my ears.

Heresy! You contrarian! Where are the touches and pitch forks? Great stuff.

You're preaching to the choir here Randy. The only integrated amps I have are my two AVRs. All my serious music systems are Adcom, Emotiva & XTZ components.Thank you and keep up the great work.

I've had a separate amp / pre-amp for decades. However, if I had to buy today, I'd absolutely go for an integrated amp for simplicity. I have no desire to have a ton of boxes and peripherals cluttering up my listening space. For me, a perfect system is an integrated amp, speakers, WiiM Mini (streamer / DAC) and an iPad. Buy good, buy once and focus on the music and be satisfied. As a side note: quote of the year...I recently read somewhere...I'll paraphrase... "The less you critically listen, the more you enjoy your music." To each their own.

@Jaytecx

Жыл бұрын

It’s so true just to buy well, then enjoy your music. Or else spend forever in audiolimbo.

@Michael-xz1nk

Жыл бұрын

You obviously get it but so many do not. Different strokes I guess. Enjoy!!

I kind of fell into this hobby. I was talking to a friend about wanting to get into hifi - with NO knowledge of it. He connected me with a friend of his that gave me an incredible deal on a Yamaha CR2040. I LOVE that machine, but I have to admit, I am VERY separates curious. I have a BlueSound Node, and just upgraded my speakers to Wharfedale Linton 85th Anniversary’s. I’m now exploring my DAC options. I think I’ll always have the CR2040, but I think I’m going to begin building a second system of all separates.

I agree agree randy .I went to separates about 30 years ago I was sick of changing integrated amps .so yes definitely the way to go .love your channel and your sense of humour .Greetings from Scotland 🙂

Nope. I will never give up my Sansui AU7900 integrated amp that powers my JBL 100t's. So many inputs and yes I stream through it and also use a Ifi Zen phone preamp through one of the tape inputs. Of course it is a 1975 vintage piece of gear that has been completely restored to new. Just a complete versatile amp. For me, perfect.

@JukeboxAlley

Жыл бұрын

I have to agree with that model, after well over a hundred (maybe even 2-300) different amps/receivers etc., the Sansui au-7900 is in my top 10 favorites, if not higher on the list, maybe even cracks the top 5, it's been a few years but I'd have to hear it again. Also, that's an awesome set of speakers you have also, big lively fellas.

@airgunnersc9335

Жыл бұрын

@@JukeboxAlley The speakers are the rare black lacquer finish. Most people have never seen a pair because the finish gave JBL problems and not very many were made.

@JukeboxAlley

Жыл бұрын

@@airgunnersc9335 those are keepers, I've only saw one set for sale in the past with black piano finish, I believe it was only a special order option if I remember right, you never see them around.

@JukeboxAlley

Жыл бұрын

@@airgunnersc9335 and they quit making them because it caused them problems, I would imagine some people beat them up and didnt take care of them was the most likely the problem, the black finish is tough to keep perfect that's for sure, that's interesting, just gained some knowledge I didn't know about them. So if you have a sharp set I'd say hang onto em for sure.

Hey Randy, entertaining as always. I’m with you on the dedicated boxes route to best quality and the most I would ever want to see in a single box is the pre and power amp. Having said that, one of the cheapest ways to get into quality vinyl playback is with a vintage NAD integrated amp with built in phono stage. Just to add a little reality in your cost comparisons, if a manufacturer chooses to sell direct, they don’t charge half the price of a dealer sold box. They may not have a dealer margin to pay but they do have a direct sales operation with shipping, free trials, returns etc to fund. Best case, they’re probably saving the consumer about fifteen percent. More to the point, unless you’re prepared to buy five amplifiers with a view to shipping four of them back, you’re never sure you picked the best one for your system.

@Stan_the_Belgian

4 ай бұрын

Very correct point, a webshop also has costs

I've always associated integrated amplifiers as having everything onboard EXCEPT the tuner. In other words - the alternative to the receiver. Did I misunderstand something?

Agree with everything you said. I like my recievers for their purpose but my 2 channel system is separates. DAC, Pre-amp, Amp, balanced. Also have Freya N, love it. The passive stage is great if just want to "hear" my dac/source. With some stuff though, tubes just sound right. I really dig the tubes.

Agree. Another solid reason I like separates kind of relates to why you like bookshelves as opposed to tower speakers . Space, that take up a fraction of the space . I don’t want to buy a massive piece of furniture to display some big bulky stereo.

Completely agree with your thesis here. Think of the power supplies, interconnects, and cables as your "system". You can then swap components in and out. Buy quality. Buy it once. When upgrading, consider the entire signal path. I've had my (integrated) amp for about 25 yrs. I'm looking at upgrading - there's been movement in power amplification technologies that make this worthwhile. But my speakers are perfectly fine for my (smallish brightish) living room. The issue for me now becomes that to upgrade to the pre and power amps I want is a $12K expense (I'm contemplating Holo Audio preamp and Schiit Audio Tyr monoblocks) - CRAZY!!! Maybe for now I contemplate the Schiit Audio Freya+ and either Burson Timekeeper3x GT or Schiit Vidar 2 monoblocks (the Aegirs would be great but by Dynaudio speakers are relatively insensitive 86dB and 4 Ohms...)

So, if Musical Fidelity would sell direct to consumers, would a M5si Integrated amp be on your recommanded components list? Because, think about it, integrated amps make you save on gazillion dollars expensive AudioQuest interconnect câbles, on chassis (ask your friend at Emotiva how much a chassis costs, I am curious), on duplicate parts like the AC input and other little whatchamacallit little parts inside. Not sure that integrated amps are to avoid. Not sure.

I recently bought an integrated amp for my "spares" system, a Yamaha 501. It's great, but my main system has a preamp and power amp, and that's really the way to go mostly. Gives you flexibility. You have options with that form factor

I agree! If you get the audio bug, being able to tweak the components down to the cables instead of having to flip a big, expensive box every time you get the itch is not only more cost effective, it's more fun.

I agree, separates are preferred. And of course cables make a difference. Probably less so than a power filter and linear power supplies for all your separates, but they definitely make a difference. Otherwise I would not have spent 800 bucks in total on my cables.

Here in the UK, there are many good integrated amps to choose from. Most have pre and power, somtimes with a pre out, but not many have a built in dac. Anything sold through a dealer has mark up, not just the integrated amps. At less than £1000 there are Arcam, Audiolab, Bluesound, Leak, Marantz. NAD, Pro-Ject, Rega, Roksan and Rotel. Most of these have a couple of models at this price. The Rega IO and Brio are excellent, well made, robust and most of all, great sounding units. The Adiolab 6000A is great as well. I get the point of wanting to choose all the bits, I just think that a pre and power amp in a single box is a good solution. If you want to splash the cash, you can get yourself a Burmester 032 for just over £15k. That will do the job nicely!

Hey Randy, great video. I got started with an SVS Soundbase. It has given me great sound, and I've had a ton of holy crap moments when listening to familiar music. That being said, within about a year, it became very apparent to me how limited this device is. It was super user friendly as a beginner, so it allowed me to have a non intimidating way into the audiophile community. However, I'm already on a quest for a separates based system, and so, as you've mentioned, will end up spending more money in the long run. Integrated amps definitely seem to have their place, but if you get the bug, they don't seem like a likely endpoint.

As always, an interesting and thoughtful perspective you present. Great thoughts and a fun video. Thanks! I've been under the belief that separates would always have a higher cost, not thinking about perceivable to the ear "disadvantages" that could be present with "heavily" integrated amps. I can see your point about being difficult to go backwards if a piece of hardware has too many bells and whistles that could bring noise into the mix and cannot be circumnavigated easily to improve the output. A few years back I got a reconditioned Parasound Integrated amp (it has a Wolfson Dac) at a good price. It's got enough juice to run power hungry stand mounts. But its "integration" is just the DAC (I pay no attention to the phono outputs since I don't do vinyl.) Simple in its integration I believe, may be why it sounds very decent. I can of course input from an "improved" DAC and it's nice to have that option (as a "cheap" audio dude, I am using a Chrome Audio puck (remember those) outputting digitally and when it dies, I'll be on the hunt for a decent streamer / DAC (thinking and hoping I can find an integrated unit that is decent, but doesn't break the bank). Or should I only go with separates for a streamer and DAC (that's an improvement over my DAC in the Parasound)? Grrrr, the separates vs. integrated debate/decision making conundrum strikes again! Curses you CAM !!

Interesting points. I have an Outlaw RR2160MKII that I enjoyed for sometime. Then I got the Ares II DAC and Wiim mini and enjoy it’s performance and ease of use. I want to upgrade/ go separates eventually.

Overall agree with this but for me after getting Mcintosh C-2700 preamp with built on DA-2 upgradable DAC and MC/MM phono amp I tossed out my external DAC and Phono Preamp as I’ve been very satisfied with the built-ins. I, obviously, use separate Amp. So my setup isn’t quite a “integrated” but it gives me choice of Amps and I’m super happy with it.

Just bought a Luxman L-550AXII yesterday. I think it'll be just fine.

@funkyfurballs1078

Жыл бұрын

You can't go wrong with any Luxman or McIntosh integrated...

NAD C399 Integrated -- Amp tech from Masters series (and pre-outs) -- 32/384 ESS Sabre DAC (also from Masters series) -- Future expansion through MDC card slots x2 -- BluOS/Dirac MDC card in slot one -- HDMI eARC -- $2699 retail as equipped (got mine for $2300 as dealer demo)

Agree with you in theory but recently bought a Denon PMA 1700NE because, my wife wanted to be able to use our stereo without asking which switch to turn on or leaving the tube pre amp on by accident or god forbid turning it off before the auto on on the power amp switched itself off causing a loud pop. As far as compromises go, the Denon is pretty nice. You don't have to use the built in DAC (I don't) or Phono pre (I do) but they are nice to have.

All aboard...starting to ride the "separates" train. Looking at Emotiva PT2 vs Schiit Freya S. Should I care about the variable sub out and High Pass that comes with the PT2? My powered sub already has variable crossover cutoff and phase control? Also, I really like the balanced in/out of the Frya S because my DAC has XLR out. Thoughts?

Hi Randy, as always great show. Although everything always depends on what you want, your logic has a true foundation. Separate parts allow you more freedom to "move" and if for some reason you do "wrong", it is better to go a little wrong than a lot. Now I ask you for advice. A few months ago I bought a Q Acoustic (3020i) I love them. I am using them with a Fosy Audio BT30A that I already had but although it sounds good but I would like something more "fancy". I have been recommended a Rega Brio + a DAC. The question is which one, is it worth the change? Thank you.

This about sums it up, for convenience go receiver/integrated on a simpler setup and it'll be just fine, but if you like trying different flavors of amps and extra tuning options also added gain and filtering, more flexibility and fun if you like to change things out a lot, then that system for critical listening and interchanging components etc. then separates will pretty well always win that case.

I hear where you are coming from, done both over the years, Pre amp and Power amp and integrated amp. I prefer a good solid well made integrated amp.....currently running the Marantz PM8006, lovely bit of kit......all analog, so just add a nice DAC or streamer and away you go. Very smooth amp........very easy to live with. That said, I have had Rotel pre/power set ups and Quad Pre/power set ups......they were good too but since Marantz introduced HDAM within their integrated amps....the sound is music to my ears...👍 and don't have any RCA leads linking pre and power sections....which are always a good way to mess up the signal going to your power amp. (all that money paid to keep the signal path as short as possible....then it has to exit the pre amp via two connectors and a lead.........Dow!

Totally agree! Amps can last for a while, but particularly DACs get new features every other week. With phono stage, either you are not into vinyl, so threw away some cash, or you are into vinyl, and then are stuck with a MM-only phono stage. MC phono stage on integrated is pretty rare, and serious vinyl folks will sooner or later go the MC-route. One the few Pre-Power-integrated ones I would consider is the PassLabs INT25. And yes, I made the integrated mistake (Rotel RA1572), but now am all separate.

@davidalmieda6617

6 ай бұрын

High-output MC cartridge. I have an Adcom crosscoil VDH, and it runs fine in the MM phono stage of my Onkyo A-9555.

Why would u recommend the Aiyima T9 pro if it’s the oposite from all u just said? I’m curious cuz i’m starting to put together my 1st setup and after tons of utube videos this one particular makes me feel rly confuse when i see the recommendation amp list. What would u guys recommend for a starting setup, so far i have a Pro-ject Debut Carbon Evo (2’d hand for a very good price) and a NAD phono preamp PP2 (same as the turntable) and i’m getting any Q Acoustics 3050 (or similar) that i can find for a reasonable price since here they are ez to find at good price

I agree with separates, but to me the story is more nuanced. There are two kinds of preamps that can be included in a integrated amp: passive and active. For integrated amps with active preamplification, Randy’s points track. If the provided preamp stage is passive, there is little downside to this kind of integrated amp; it is essentially a power amp with a volume control and perhaps input switching. This sort of integrated amp allows the possibility of a very simple, sort signal path, especially with DAC sources that often already have adequate gain. Shorter signal paths can provide better fidelity per dollar as they can be implemented with a few high quality (and cost) components. These advantages can also be had using a strictly power amp and a separate passive preamp (basically a volume pot in a box).

@lasagnathan69420

Жыл бұрын

Thank you for this comment! I'm new to the idea of considering separates as I look to upgrade my essentially cobbled-together system, and I wasn't at all aware of the differences between passive and active preamps, or the existence of separate passive preamps. This gives me a bit more direction in my research, and changes the calculus a bit on what I was planning. Greatly appreciated!

@SteveWille

Жыл бұрын

@@lasagnathan69420 I have had no experience with these, but Schiit makes several separate preamps that can work in either passive or active mode at the flip of a switch. Perhaps others make them, too. Good luck with your upgrades.

@AT-wl9yq

Жыл бұрын

I have no problem with passive preamps or integrates with a passive line stages. However, one thing you need to be aware of, is there aren't too many of them out there.

Another attack strategy is to get an integrated amp with lots of ins & outs. My AV receiver has RCA inputs for all channels & preamp outs for just about everything. I was able to connect a Cambridge multichannel disc player (sadly, like Oppo, discontinued now) via analog cables for all channels & bypass the older DAC in the receiver. I also ran cables for the main channels from the AVR's preamp to a Primaluna valve amplifier so it handles the main stereo speakers while the AVR powers the center & surrounds. There's definitely an improvement-- the soundstage is much wider with the Primaluna.

Hi Randy, interesting take. I just put deposit down for integrated amp(pure amp, no DAC, streamer or phono stage) and I will bet you it sounds better than lot of separates out there. You're right on many point but what's matter in the end is execution. Most of my kit is English but cables are from Kimber. You have some great integrated amps in States as well (McIntosh, Krell, ML,...).

It took me many years, but eventually managed to get a Pre/Power set up. I bought a Parasound pair (NewClassic 200 Pre / ZoneMaster 2350) and love them! Was also fortunate enough to get a great discount, and get them before the huge price increases recently. Now if only I could afford the Denafrips Enyo I’d be a totally content man.

The integrated amp move started in the 90s.....at first, they were praised as they could save money and space...as long as you weren't as concerned with upgrades. The Arcam A -6, Creek 4330r, and Bryston B-60R were great, reliable products, and reasonable ( in context, I guess..especially the Bryston product).

@rodirish7787

Жыл бұрын

Bryston is one of the better deals on the used market the 4bst is a great amp has a 20 year warranty never listened to the b-60r

@mikecelent2015

Жыл бұрын

@@rodirish7787 definitely..bought their B17 in 2020..love their 20 year warranty..although, at my age, I'm not sure that I have that kind of warranty!

Have decided to divorce my music from my Denon surround receiver. Thru all the CAM vids I have easily decided upon all the separates I would like. Except for the pre amp. List so far is: Parasound P6, Emotiva PT2, Musical Fidelity M6S, PS Audio Stellar GainCell, Marantz NR1200 as Pre, Acoustic Invader, Reisong Q6, or Schiit Freya+. While low pass filter and balanced outs would be nice, sound will decide. Any I should add to my list to trial? Hopefully I can hear many at Axpona?

I have a muzishare X7 & Emotiva BASX TA100 (its 3 years old) & the muzishare X7 has a preout. I have been thinking about getting a pre-amp with tone control. I am using a schiit mani, phono preamp (X7's is ok but not great). I mostly listen to Vinyl but stream with Bluesound (using their internal DAC) and listen thru a Denon CD player (relatively new) using that DAC. Would you suggest a tube pre-amp or should I try the Emotiva with its tone control (although it is hard to use)?

I'm fully onboard, Randy. The preamp and amp I bought in the early 90s might need a refresh but they have solidly outlived multiple source format and speaker changes. So flexible and upgradeable on their simplicity that the only thing lack is remote control. And there's even some workarounds there (remote volume adjustment) with streaming options. Saying that, I believe the Integrated Amp market will continue to grow because of the technology climate we live in now and where we're going in the future. Hobbyists like ourselves will never go away but the masses strive for increased conveniences and all-in-one solutions atop a belief that personal electronics somehow have a 'generational lifespan'. The masses will be even more happy to buy new equipment with every new format or streaming method than you or I. Ironic considering how much we love this schiit.

I hope to hear a lot more from you. I have been into audio all my life and I love it. Now I'm into high end Bluetooth speakers but that's because of music streaming. However, I've never left my desire for separate components

A while back I bought all 100 watt per channel receivers with pre-out in excellent to mint condition for $60-120. I wanted to experience all the makers. Marantz, Onkyo, Denon, Yamaha, Harman Kardon, Pioneer, Luxman, Fisher, Sherwood. It was money well spent given what I can buy on the secondary markets. If you are curious my favorites are Pioneer, Harman Kardon, and Marantz. Your advice is great....I just went about this a different way.

As mentioned, a traditional analog integrated amplifier with pre-outs and no built in DAC or streamer offers abundant upgrade paths. I've owned a NAD C 326BEE for over ten years. It has pre-outs & two sub outs. I've added different DAC's and power amps when I see fit. Don't think I'll ever get rid of it.

@rreiss60

Жыл бұрын

My amp too. Do you have a phono stage? My phono stage is a Schiit Mani. I also use a DAC Magic 200m and BlueOs streamer.

@oscarpina1038

Жыл бұрын

I have that one. Pretty good. Also, i have ordered de 3050 le. Any thoughts?

I've had both, and in all seriousness, at least to me, the difference is minimal. I never pay full price for anything. If I see or hear what I like and really want it, I wait a couple of years for the price to drop as the replacement models come in. As long as it's not feature starved, I just don't worry about the "Future proof" thing.

I've owned tube seperates and intergrated, also solid state separates and integrated. I have no complaints with my Luxman L-509X intergrated and willing to bet it can give separates a run for their money....in my opinion.

You are spot on with all this information. I wondered the exact same thing...why pay all that money for something with less power output when you can get a AV receiver with a remote and more output and more options and channels.

Good video, Randy. Integrated amps can be great for convenience, as they were for me in my early Hi-Fi years. Two years ago I went with a preamp and two mono amps (in bridge mode), and I couldn't be happier. They cost me about $1800, all made by Parasound (pizza box-shaped components)................remember those? 👍

A flexible integrated is a good way to start though. I picked up a used Parasound Hint 6 for $2k. I like it better than my Emotiva TA-1 and Schiit Vidar combo, all by itself. At this point, I'm also borrowing an Ares II from a friend. That improves a bit on the internal DAC, at least for music. I can plug in higher end amps next and then finally, a dedicated, high end pre of some kind. At that point, I should be able to sell the Hint 6 for most of what I bought it for in the first place. PS, I'd skip the TA-1 and go straight to the TA-2 now. The TA-1 doesn't have quite either juice for remotely power hungry speakers and the internal crossover for base management is locked a useless 90hz. TA-2 is adjustable and much more powerful. Don't know if overall quality is any higher. TA-2 plus JBL Studio 580's on sale and a pair of open box SVS SB3000s would be a $4k ish system that anyone could call endgame with a straight face. I had this setup with TA-1, before TA-2 came out. Because of the 90hz lock. On the bass management, I couldn't get the full benefit of the subs. I wound up returning the subs and going down the rabbit hole with higher end speakers, followed by higher end electronics, followed by room treatment, followed by shopping for even higher end electronics instead of saving up for a proper house to put it all in. Thanks a lot Emotiva.

Thanks for this. I stumbled across yoru channel as I was starting to get into the hobby, and this video speaks to me. I got roasted on Reddit for wanting to go with individual components for my first setup, but I disagree. All these points make sense to me, so I'm confident I went on the right track. Also spening $500 for an individual component setup sure as hell beats the $1,200-$1,700 integrated amps others were suggesting. Not today buddy, I'm sticking wiht my first stab at a setup. For reference: - AT-LP60X - Fosi P3 pre-amp - Wiim Pro Plus - Switch (for the P3 and the Pro Plus) - Fosi v3 - Kanto YU P6 I'm looking forward to the setup and start listening to all the things! Thanks for the content!

what about cambridge audio CXA81 ?? it seems realy great. They tell you the DAC inside it (seems good to me) and it have a toroidal power supply. I want to connect a pc via USB. Should i get this or the Magicdac 200m. And if the 200m, what shold i pair it with (2 speakers and a sub to connect).

Start with an integrated amp/receiver with pre outs, add speakers and sources (cd, dvd, bd, phono, streamers, tuner, tapedecks, etc). After some time if you want to go seperates add power amps. It will boost your speakers. From this point on it is finetuning. Adding an external dac between a source and your integrated can be a big upgrade but it is mostly a minor upgrade and takes a lot of research but that is all the fun. As an option there is always a change to throw away some hard earned cash on powercables. No one has the guts to show the difference in measurements if they claim "better" powercables make it sound better. If you have a soundimprovement with different powercables, the powerunit in your device is from low quality or malfunctioning and you should replace/repair that device. You can also choose to replace your integrated with a pre-amp and seperate tuner (old-times). Keep in mind, you might need a seperate processor if you want to do multichannel dolby etc stuff. But you allready have the poweramps so it should be possible. And for normal working folks, this can take several years to build but it gives you time to save up some money to buy your dream part and build whatever set you want while enjoying your music/movies from the very beginning. The drawback with seperates is simple: The waf is low. Lots of cables and stuff. Usually not a clean and tight setup. Paying for a lot of powerunits in all these devices. The more devices, the higher the change of a failure. Enjoy your journey.

Pine tree audio is where I get all my Power Cables/Interconnects from. Mainly do it for appearance. Emotiva XSP-1 preamp. Geshelli labs J2 Dac. Emotiva XPA 2 Gen 3 power amp. Wiim Pro streamer. Polk Audio Legend 100 speakers. REL T5/X Subwoofer. Absolutely floored with the sound quality compared to my old Integra Stereo receiver.

Great vid..although I strongly agree with everything you said but also disagree a little. I love my separates for all the reasons mentioned in the video, but there are some very nice sounding integrated's out there if you have the $. I had bought an integrated not too long ago, and everything that box had to offer was pretty awesome sounding. I doubt I could have matched it with separates for the same price. But I do agree that if one buys an integrated, it really needs to be a little future proof or know 100% it has the goods to make one happy for many years. Separates are the coolest, but budget probably has a lot to do with what route some people choose.

Hey Randy, I just got a Yamaha rn2000a. With what you are espousing in this video... does this product change the game? Kevin McAlley

This is why Schiit needs to make an Audio Toaster, multiple analog I/O selector to make separates and integrated amps better.

I have an integrated amp Technics from the 80s and cannot find a better sound signature, yet. I have tried many other amps/preamps, but its direct non-intrusive SS approach is what I like, you can color it with your DAC, tubes, different source devices, etc. Plus the style is so cool 🤩

@jd5787

Жыл бұрын

Nice. What model are you using? Thanks

@theaudiocircle

Жыл бұрын

@@jd5787 It's a SU-Z600 - I have it paired with a Schiit Freya+ preamp and Heresys III

Ya I’ve bought a couple integrated amps and I’m either not using them at all or I’m just using the actual amp portion with an external dac or preamp anyways… one of those is a ps audio sprout, ya it’s kinda cool but man, the components I could have bought with that $700, oh well, I’m sure nobody here has ever bought a bunch of crap that they regret right? All that, along with the extra markups on most equipment, definitely means most people would be better off with some cheap separates until they find a good upgrade path, good stuff as usual Randy, thanks again!!!

My set up consists of Denon X4800H, B&W 704S3, B&W Center Channel HTM72S3 and JL Audio Sub D110 & Athena AS-R1.2 Bipole Surrounds. I would like to improve the musical performance of my system or at least the LR speakers. I was told adding an integrated amp with Home Theater bypass would be the best way to improve the music performance. What would you recommend I do?

I hear what you're saying and you have a point… HOWEVER… there are counterpoints to consider as well. One of the biggest cost factors in a device is the case. Anyone who has ever DIYed something knows this. Swapping out one single device for 4 or 5 separate devices also means, that some of the money invested will go into the cases. The same applies to the multiple power supply units. Then there are the connection cables. Even if you don't get 'esoteric' here, but still want decent quality, this will not insignificantly increase the overall price of your system. Not to mention that this produces multiple points of contact resistance, that are not present on a circuit board in an integrated amplifier. So… all I'm saying is, there is always another side from which you have to look at the matter, in order to be able to get the overall picture.

@raulgarcia1718

Жыл бұрын

This sounds like a topic for a follow up video.

My amplifier is class D Marantz Melody X. DAC is not used in the analog stage. The chips inside are TAS5142 and TAS5558. The only dac used is for the TV sound connected via Toslink cable. Class D amps are getting better each day.

Just use the rec out if you need a pre amp signal. Good way to overcome no pre out. Like your videos...YAMAHA rules! I did this with my Yamaha RV703 to an eq with a master output then to my Yamaha P2100.

It can easily get out of control looking for that elusive sound and quite expensive too. The setup in my modest vinyl corner is very simple: an SX 780, a Technics SL-D2 with an Ortofon 2 Blue, a Ifi Zen phono stage, a "recycled" Panasonic DVD player as CD with a Schiit DAC and RP 600 M's. Sounds and looks good, of course I can do better but you always can, just like chasing a ghost. As someone said way before me "love the one you're with", "parole sante"!

Everything I see in the market suggests if you want to do home theater AND you want a separate pre-amp. You can expect to add at least an extra 1000 to the cost of the solution. It might make sense to stay integrated for the home theater, then go 2-channel with the deluxe non-integrated solution. I am not sure I am ready for champagene audio yet.

Rotel integrated amps are a great for having pre-outs and even pre-amp inputs. Use the power amp section or just the pre-amp or both. So versatile.Yamaha for example don’t give you pre-outs for most budget models,they want you to buy a higher spec model. Pre-outs can be a very useful.

Yesterday I took my first step into separates by ordering a Tonewinner AD-8300PA amp to go with my Denon X4700H, which I will change to full pre-out mode. I expect (hope) to hear better clarity out of my system with the power supply relocated away from the processing chips. Eight of the 11 channels are just shy of my current receiver, but the LCR channels are 240W each (all channels driven). Even though ti have my L/R bi-amped I think I should still hear a difference. If at some point I should need more power than what I have, I can always put it on E-bay or another site.

How would I go about asking for your advice / recommendations? For a slightly more in-depth reply, are you available to consult? I just bought nice used Klipsch La Scala AL5's. My space is huge: 25 x 25 x 15 ft high. At present I still have my old Fisher 500C receiver, so going forward I'll be looking at separates (maybe keep the Fisher as a tuner). Don't need a DAC or streamer as I have a Marantz Ruby SACD player and Linn LP-12. I listen to classical, 2-channel stereo only. I like your channel, so I'm asking.

I think a traditional margin is around 33.3%. Very few retail items are keystone (100%)

Very interesting Take, if I want to start setting up separates what could I get for HDMI 4K 120 Hz

There is something to be said about an elegant and visually appealing one box solution. I like Bluesound's Powernode and the cheaper version for their small elegant one box solution that also supports eARC. These units are smaller than traditional integrated amps and easier to incorporate into a living space. My requirements is a either an all-in-one solution with HDMI or something like the streaming integrated amp from SVS because I can always add a hockey sized puck Wiim to it and not have to deal with DTS Play-Fi. I guess in this regard I'm more like an Mac fanboy vs a PC fanboy. At a certain price point integrated solutions are cheaper than separates and offer better sound quality. One chassis, less duplication of parts and cabling, etc. I just wish that in addition to HDMI more of these products offered some form of room correction as not everyone is able to use room treatments for whatever reason.

@nicholasfox6198

Жыл бұрын

I have a Powernode hidden in a cabinet that runs my bedroom/TV audio. And the better-than-Sonos distributed audio is great as well!

@johnpereira6934

Жыл бұрын

@@nicholasfox6198 Years ago I have a Plex speaker and was disappointed in it's sound quality and the flakiness of the signal it was receiving. Switched to a Sonos system and was surprised by how much better the Sonos One sounded. And I believe Sonos sort of uses its own network for communicating. Much less problems than Bluesound. I think Bluesound has done something similar now, but I'm not sure. What I like about the Bluesound home theatre setup is that you can bring your own subwoofer if you wish and not be stuck. However, Bluesound needs some type of room correction software. Also, I'm hesitant regarding the quality of sound from the Bluesound speakers as I was not impressed by the Plex.

does the sony ss cs5 need an amplifier like the scarlett 2i2? or can i plug it directly into my desktop? and what wires would i need? Thanks!