After 10 years of training judo and training with excelent judokas, one guy didn't break my balance, but instead everything in my right knee with his attempt of a tiatoshi. I tried several times to get back into the sport, but the knee injuirees stuck with me my whole life and there just wasn't a chance to do the sport anymore without sever pain and risking my knee to get stiff permanently. Still loving the sport and dreaming about it.

@larryzach7880

Жыл бұрын

Do some research into the stuff some clinics are doing with people's own fat stem cells, one of the black belts at our dojo avoided an invasive knee surgery and was back on the mat in an amazingly short period of time.

@kinngrimm

Жыл бұрын

@@larryzach7880 well back then i had some of the best doctors available here in germany, those which are responsible for national sports cadres. The operations i got were topnotch for sure. Still i might have another look into it, as in 30 years a lot certainly can change. Not sure though that my insurrance would pay for it or if that would then lead to me taking up the sport again. I am living without any other big problems. I can walk normaly, just hitting the floor with the knee isn't an option ^^ and don't get me started should ever my knee get into a similar situation again, there is some fear because of that too. The worst part i remember was when they pulled the tubes out of my knee and were late in doing so ... meaning the flesh already settled in the small spots where the blood and operation leftovers should flow away through. I don't easily cry or scream, but that did it for me hrhr.

@larryzach7880

Жыл бұрын

@@kinngrimm Sorry to hear that, I didn't realize it was that long ago, I have no idea if the new discoveries will still have the same benefits on old surgeries.

@kinngrimm

Жыл бұрын

@@larryzach7880 no need to appologize :) you had good intentions. I guess also that it isn't so much about old surgeries, but rather about me getting older which makes this not something to consider lightly. Every operation where you are cut open "could" have adverse effects, may it be because of nowadays multi resistant bacterias(that we humans really fucked up complettly, but hey at least we can eat meat till it comes out of our ears ^^), nerves being severed not growing back together again which leaves areas where you cant feel much of anything, depending on what needs to be done with the bones and their condition(i am not that old yet but, the older one gets often bones become a bit brittle(?), depending on which medication one is already on and then has to combine them with new once and over all things may not heal as quickly and complettly anymore as one was younger. So aslong there is no wonder drug or procedure, which would guarantee 100% functionality afterwards, i would be rather hesitant.

@nicoanon

Жыл бұрын

stem cells

Ironically, in bjj class, hiki comi gaeshi is one of the first throws we learn right after osoto as a white belt. Our bjj professor is also a judo black belt as well. But he also advocates the same angle method as sensei, rolling with the opponents shoulder in the chest. I’ve been thrown scores of times with this throw without injury - so far.

@pp00xyzzy

Жыл бұрын

against typical BJJ stance those are good choices.

@sampokemppainen3041

Жыл бұрын

Because you need to be able to proggress even after the throw. There is no ippon existing in bjj

@shemshem9998

Жыл бұрын

sure it was hiki? not an differnt grip?

@TheRattimusPrime

Жыл бұрын

Sumí gaeshi is a pretty solid single leg counter. And since 90% of single legs in Bjj are head inside it takes the spiking aspect out.

@mrboy9658

Жыл бұрын

wow you learn stand up wrestling in bjj

A failed Tani otoshi snapped my ACL 6 months into judo and ended my grappling for 8 months. At this point I've been recovering longer than I've trained thanks to one training partner not knowing how to do a throw during stegeko. I truly love grappling, it's so painful that a moment of negligence cost me so much (thousands of dollars in medical bills and not being able to train with my friends)

@Drikkerbadevand

Жыл бұрын

Yeah.. I had been training for 6 months and a new white belt came in (he has blue belt in BJJ at that point).. We did randori (which we probably shouldn't do with each other, since we're both new..) I did a Ko Soto Gake, probably wasn't the best technique but I'm confident it wasn't an extremely dangerous position I put him in. Anyways the guy fell backwards and tore his ACL.. I don't even know what happened.. He was a big guy too, and I think he just had very poor knee flexibility/mobility and strength, and I also suspect he wrapped his foot around my angle as I came in, locking his OWN knee so when he fell backwards his foot was stuck wrapped around my ankle and his entire weight coming down, forcing his knee apart.

@KingJancelot

3 ай бұрын

@@Drikkerbadevand I guess that is why over the many many years Judo has been watered down, cause it doesn't take much in a maritial art that is designed to inflicted lots of damage.

Wow this video was so informative and very extremely well explained down to the last finest most minor detail. It literally gave me a new perspective on grappling as an art

I like the summary in the end where you show all 5 throws you mentioned throughout the video.

I was taught to get my hip behind the opponents leg and drop/sit down in the tani otoshi like you show for this exact reason, so even if the angle is bad, the risk is less severe because you're not pulling/throwing him, you're falling with him. Its a very good throw used by beginners because it's a good counter when you're fighting newbies like me

Thanks for showing us the subtleties of these dangerous throws.

Yagura Nage is a beautiful technique! Great video!!

First 3 have been our “core” techniques before any tourney my sons competed…and Sotomaki, the Valleydrop, Sumikaeshi…and last time I’ve seen how devastating this when your head is crushed to the floor…and whiplash from Tani if done right…thank you Sensei for going over this important points to educate the public

I think plain old O Soto Gari is the throw most likely to result in concussion. It's almost impossible to do proper ukemi on and if someone underestimates the throwing force the back of their head gets slammed onto the mat real easily.

@chestermosburger3113

Жыл бұрын

i know this from experience!

@wsg4847

Жыл бұрын

Yep, from my judo days (long ago) I remember being thrown with O-Soto so hard it felt like I was going through the floor. And this was with me knowing it was coming, on a tatami, and me doing ukemi. I believe this to be an excellent self-defense throw. Relative height and weight are not as important as they are with koshi-waza or te-waza, and doing a forceful O-Soto on an attacker on a hard surface means he is not getting up anytime soon.

@judoapprentice2326

Жыл бұрын

I tried looking for a video of this technique and couldn't find it, perhaps it's because I'm not sure what to look for. Would you be able to send a video of this o soto?

@fleetasura5224

Жыл бұрын

@@judoapprentice2326 I think it's on the 5 basic judo throw video from this channel

@quantumationsgaming3387

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, I remember doing an O Soto Gari styled trip during some drilling, and I accidentally put a bit too much force pushing them downward, Didn't give them a concussion or anything, but definitely gave them a bad headache

Thank you Sensei. You are strong 💪💪! I haven't seen these techniques in competitions yet.

Thanks for the great tips. I try to remember them when the need comes.

Seen two separated shoulders from soto makakomi. One of them, I was tori, when I was a kid decades ago. Had been very careful with it ever since.

Shintaro with all due respect (and that is a lot) that first throw was Harai Makikomi. Soto Makikomi you push both your hips through (think of an over-turned O-Goshi position) and then wrap them around you as you drop, you don't reap with the leg, and you don't drop onto Uke, you end up next to hime on the mat. I do this throw off the grip when my opponent reaches deep with their Tsurite for my lapel and they shorten the turn for me by over extending their arm. It is a very easy fall if done correctly. You also end up in an excellent position for ne waza since this technique is unlikely to score Ippon. The Kodokan has videos up demonstrating what I describe here, and my understanding comes from the original Kodokan illustrations and text.

@johnsnider2956

Жыл бұрын

Na man, it's Soto makikomi. The leg is reaping.

@rickfinsta2951

Жыл бұрын

@@johnsnider2956 Please go watch the Kodokan waza demonstration, or consult the original Kodokan text, and you will see that you are incorrect. Even the names indicate that he is demonstrating Harai, not Soto, Makikomi. Harai literally means "hip sweep." He is demonstrating a hip sweeping winding throw, or Harai Makikomi. Soto Makikomi has no sweeping or reaping action of the leg.

@Whiskydanger

Жыл бұрын

Who cares?

@homesteaderhandbook9475

Жыл бұрын

@@Whiskydanger students and teachers, who both benefit from techniques being rightly named.

@markdecarabas2927

Жыл бұрын

Rick, you are absolutely correct. The first throw is Hari Makikomi, not Soto Makikomi.

Thanks for the technique breakdowns - Great narrative and breakdowns of the mechanics as usual . As a trad jiu jitsu practitioner i think it is important to know how the old jiu jitsu (where Kano developed his original syllabus from) technique really worked to maim, disable, or kill an opponent (ie by throwing them onto their shoulder or head) so you know how not to throw your training partner in a way that is dangerous.

@GuilhermeIzquierdo

8 ай бұрын

As "old jiu jitsu" you mean JU JUTSU, right?. Totally different martial art from actual Brazilian JIU Jitsu. Jigoro Kano, the founder of Judo, sent to Brazil a group of his students, around the year 1915, led by Mitsuo Maeda. At arount 1924, the Gracie family (founders of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu) started practicing Judo with Maeda. A few years later they founded BJJ and decided to challenge practitioners of all other martial arts. One famous fight here in Brazil between Helio Grace (BJJ) and Kimura (Judo) ended with Kimura winning (1951). Many people confuse the ju jutsu arts with jiu jitsu, as if Judo was created from Jiu Jitsu when in fact the current jiu jitsu was developed and adapted from Judo/Ju jutsu, which adapted from traditional Ju Jutsu.

@hardcaliber19

23 күн бұрын

​@GuilhermeIzquierdo Ju, Jiu, Jitsu, Jutsu are just different romanizations of the same kanji, and do not hold different meanings. How we choose to romanize them does not change their meaning, nor does any particular version represent a particular style or era. This is a western misconception.

I haven't seen your videos in awhile. They're all very good videos very well detailed 👍.

Love the video, huge fan of the Yagura Nage. How about a "5 Most Dangerous Illegel Judo Attacks"? I'd personally be interested to hear your opinions on what were (maybe never were) throws part of the general Judo curriculum that were banned due to their danger. I think one for sure is the scissor sweep and other leg attacks that put your opponent/partners knees in jeopardy, but I'm more interested in high profile throws. Doable?

A very important video for those who do not know these throws but are thinking to learn to add to their repertoire.

The first one is one of my favourite throws in sambo. Really nice video!

I do number 1-4 all the time without a single injury in >25 years of judo. The two most serious injuries I have received were both from uchi mata (severe concussion with memory loss and broken elbow), both times in competition when somebody did it to me.

Thank you very much, great video on those dangerous but legal nages🙏🙇‍♂️🥋

I had my shoulder separated permanently by someone doing a sode tsuri komi goshi like makikomi- drove me straight to the mat with no chance of a fall. 25 years later I’ve had surgery to repair what they could but Im out of practice til it recovers. Be good to your partners judokas!

@outlander271

2 ай бұрын

Well said about being good to one’s partners. Some very selfish Toris about being reckless and injuring their partners during practice.

You hit a few of my serious judo injuries on the head here. IMO for the non elite judoka soto makikomi is definitely the worst, especially when performed by big guys. The whole lock the shoulder and just fall over thing is a recipe for disaster, but not just for the reason you said, I had my shoulder separate this way because a tori who was twice my weight under rotated so my locked shoulder hit the ground first with his weight on top. I have never personally seen an injury from what I think of as Tani-otoshi, but I have seen a lot of serious knee injuries from bigger guys doing yoko gake basically in the way you suggested is dangerous to the knee, the reason the gake is worse is that tori can fix the knee/leg in place more than in a true tani otoshi where the action should be more an otoshi and less of a gake (in theory). At the elite level it seems to me that sode is the most dangerous objectively (although ura nage and some version of drop seoi often seem to drop uke on their head). I am sure there are more injuries form sode than reverse seoi nage.

I think Tani-otoshi is the most dangerous one on this list, seen so many injuries to the knee from this, including snapped PCLs, ACLs, spiral fractures etc. Suprised to see the Georgian Sumi-Gaeshi on there, I would have expected the Georgian Obi-Tori-Gaeshi/Khabarelli given it has a huge risk of dumping uke on their head.

@kennethrogers1129

Жыл бұрын

Never thought of this as dangerous, I always did it with no contact …? Dropping to uki’s rear and torquing him down and back using my leg just to block his step, shintaro shows it with a lot of upper body pull,I had relied mostly on body weight , sacrifice using my body weight, live and learn!

@syn3rgyz

Жыл бұрын

@@kennethrogers1129 if you're using your leg to block then it's dangerous. there's a good reason many dojos ban this throw. It's the most common way knee injuries happen in Judo.

In 5 years the two major injuries I’ve seen both have come from tani otoshi. One time it was a 140 pound 5’5 70 year old brown belt (yes, 70, but actually really good) blew out a 230 pound 5’10 man’s knee.

@Drikkerbadevand

Жыл бұрын

Being overweight and less flexible is a huge risk to your knees doing judo.. Especially when overweight people come in who do not have an athletic background. recipe for disaster.. you have to start easy

In my first ten years or so of judo I loved sutemi wazas, throws like tani otoshi and uki waza really only ever worked for me if I had the timing just right. And I always found that if my opponents mass wasn't off their center line the throw would fail, and I would end up in a sucker position for ne waza. Awesome stuff keep the great content coming.

@maofas

Жыл бұрын

Uki waza sure, but, personally, I think tani otoshi is the lowest skill throw in all of Judo. Sure, you have to be an opportunist and attack when they are in postion for it, but it doesn't require any fine timing like a foot sweep. I have never been good at any sacrifice throws, except tani. I think the move is only dangerous when people attempt to do it regardless of position, and wind up trying to brute force twist and drag the person down.

@larryzach7880

Жыл бұрын

@@maofas yeah it can lend itself to slop, but so do numerous variations of makikomi, particularly when performed by big fat guys.

@stevo6891

Жыл бұрын

@@larryzach7880what’s better Judo or BJJ?

For Tani - When I do it I am a big strong guy I swoop in and basically lift them up as I scoop my arms around them and turn them towards me. I try to get them upright and extended as they are turning into me which halts their momentum and up on their toes. It seems like if I am able to do it that way I would take the pressure off the knee and reduce risk. It fits me because I have a 6'4" wingspan on 5'11" height so I can get around them really well, and I am a former strongman competitor and even though I am not as strong as I was it basically mimics the extension portion of the clean for an atlas stone or sandbag.

I actually used to use a move I came up with that was really similar to the tani otoshi in high school wrestling for mat returns when my opponent was trying to stand up & escape from bottom position on the ground. I’d lock my hands around the waist, lay my leg across the back of the shins, sit down and back onto my butt then scramble on top of my opponent. It worked perfectly in collegiate wrestling (probably even better than in judo) because wrestlers will squat down and lean back when standing up to escape. You can also push & move forward on your opponent with your hands around his waist & then pull back into the otoshi to get him even more off balance.

Great presentation 👍

4:24 I actually learned this in wrestling, but it was done after a single leg attempt. You would still hold on the the opponent’s leg which would prevent this from happening.

I have been practicing judo for four months, and a month ago I suffered a fall on my right elbow. Fortunately, my hand was not broken. It took three weeks to heal, but The effects of shock and fear were still there, to the point that my performance decreased greatly, and I became very afraid for myself due to harm. Out of fear, I fell on my own hand again. This frustrates me a lot . I hope you can give me some advice that might help me get rid of this fear❤ ❤

Last year in summer camp we had zantaraia as headcoach and he did teach the yagura nage and i had even little randori with him

Great demonstration with good points in this video. I believe Hane Makikomi is also dangerous too, the way of Tori's landing on Uke's body... tori's full arm and big part of his shoulder is right on Uke's chest and sometimes may rich the side of the head during the landing! Depends how Tori is experienced with this throw. Oss.

@hodgsoncatalin3243

Жыл бұрын

Also, I want to add the Uchi - mata - makikomi as a dangerous technique.

@franzelberg8630

11 ай бұрын

Translationen please in german

For tani otoshi they don't even need to move the foot. Sometimes they just turn the foot so the trail leg can move around and that can happen in a fraction of a second, turning the knee without moving it. I'm a bigger fan of starting the tani otoshi but not dropping (sans "otoshi") so you're basically just checking the leg. If they don't lift the foot they'll still fall, and it opens their stance to a lot of other techniques. That being said, most people in competition aren't going to go for that when they have a high chance of scoring if they just drop.

@Drikkerbadevand

Жыл бұрын

The way my sensei taught it, like in this, where you just grab him, and sit down behind him blocking his opposite leg with your foot, with 0 contact with his other knee (the side you drop on) I doubt will ever result in a knee injury... but injuries happen when people just want to score the ippon

Great Classes Sensei! OSS

Thank you and Subscribed !

I was teaching Tani otoshi to my brother being thrown by it. I saw that he was pointing his knee upward, meaning that I would land on his knee. I threw myself outward to save his knee. Uninjured despite the poor landing. In Jujutsu we taught Tani Otoshi as more of a drop versus the contact with the thigh, like a rear Uki Waza. The Yagura Nage looked kind of like an inside thigh Hane Goshi, really cool variation.

@Matman_03

Жыл бұрын

i thought it was Hane Goshi too

@Matman_03

Жыл бұрын

Ok, leg work is completely different.

@Drikkerbadevand

Жыл бұрын

My sensei has always taught us the tani-otoshi as a drop.. You grab him closely and sit down behind him, blocking his opposing leg.. and you ONLY drop and you do not block or lock his knee at all..

@jasonadams1632

Жыл бұрын

@Apollinaris yes that is the correct method. He got it after I explained it again and demonstrated it solo, didn't have someone else to demonstrate.

One of the first times ever using ura nage, I botched the throw angle and had about 200lbs of meat landing squarely on my chest. So, it can be dangerous for a bad tori as well

Good info.

Drop Seoi nage was always a bit of a problem throw where I trained growing up. Too many ppl landing on their heads…or face planting in some cases!

i love this! is there any example in the cage of a striker attempting to counter these throws?

Awesome video

I rememeber we were practicing tani otoshi, my partner, did it the wrong way, when he was falling, I was feeling my knee about to break, but luckly I acted quickly to prevent the injury

Excellent video, guys - well done! It's great to see these technques are still alive even though they aren't included in the curriculum of most judo schools these days.

I like how you show the throws at the start without the names.

I like your videos !

Veramente molto interessante e importante . Bravi

I'd like to see a video on the Judo Chop. My judo practitioners think this is a fake strike. But the Atemi-Waza is real in the early Judo arts.

This is hilarious. We did all of these except Yagura Nage last night in the dojo. Glad no one was hurt 😮

amazing

my bjj instructor received a neck injury from move 2 during a judo tournament. His body went numb and transported to hospital. As far as I know he fully recovered. I didn't see the move but my understanding is he was tired and let his posture suffer. He got bent over after going for something, then his vastly more experienced opponent spiked him, sounded like intentionally.

Im suprised that Sumi Gaeshi is on the list. It was one of the first throws I learned and I never felt that it was dangerous at all. On the contrary - I considered it to be the safest throw becouse your oponent just rolls forward gently and everyone can do that.

@kanucks9

Жыл бұрын

It's the Georgian grip that introduces the spiking risk

@diynevala

Ай бұрын

Sumi gaeshi may even work on newaza, as a way to turn your opponent on top of you to down on his back.

4:02 Yapp, that side shoot got my friend's leg broken really bad by his brother

Really good video

As one of my BJJ professors is also a judo black belt, definitely had Tani Otoshi on my blue belt test for jiu jitsu and ura-nage on my purple belt test. But saying that, it was taught and practiced in a very control environment. I definitely see how those can be dangerous in a competition aspect due to not knowing what the opponent will do to prevent the throw. A competitor can be very proficient at the throw and it only takes their opponent to be set themselves up just a bit differently than expected to destroy a ligament or cause head damage. Was curious what your opinion is on using tani otoshi in a self-defense situation. Obviously, we don't want to cause unnecessary damage but, in the end, it is a self-defense situation.

i just remembered that i actually injured my shoulder twice doing judo. not on any of those techniques, not on one of the illegal techniques, but just getting thrown with a simple ippon seoi nage. bad height ratio between me and my partner, the exact bad speed dynamic when he pulled the throw, landed straight on the shoulder and couldn't roll because of wrong momentum, impact caused AC sprain...

Oh I appreciate this one.

Dear sensei Shintaro i want to mix your art with mine this is just mind blowing , more no gi please

Im not trained in Judo ,.. y totally ,. very interesting , my sensei also says , no one is allowed to get hurt ,. (and he works security too) ty , for share ,. wish an nice day greets , pls stay well 🐞💐

What would be nice, is if he talked about. How to receive these throws, whit minimal risk.

Osoto gari und tai otoshi can be very dangerous too, if your opponent is breaking your knee in outwards direction instead of breaking your balance.

Yagura nage is found in most belt wrestling and grip wrestling styles around the world; everywhere from Iceland and Switzerland to Georgia and Mongolia.

I learned all these throws in Sambo years ago so much fun

I trained from the age 5 till 18 and competed all the time, both national and international. I used Tani Otoshi all the time. The one technique that got me injured was ippon seoi nage...... dislocated elbow and shoulder blus broke my elbow. Ura Nage no scare me 😅.

Thank you so much, im planning to do some of these moves in judo

Liking yagura! Could be a good self defense vs bear hug?

Best🤝

i've never done sumi gaeshi with the position you showed, usually, i reach above the elbow of my partner on the same side as my arm to grab the belt, then i just let him try to stand up and lock himself tighter in the grip, his head end up face against my torso or even just beside mine. in the end i don't even throw my partner, but just make a clean roll with him using my height, sumi gaeshi is definitely the least violent technique i ever used.

Great, like wrestling, bit rooted in chi?

How do you prepare for them?

Two of my favorites are in that list 😬

Judo is one horrendously vicious style!!😬😱

They're not only legal, their mastery is in fact required to attain your black belt, at least in Holland they are.

What would be an alternative for tani otoshi or throws from the back that are safer?

Just come back from my MRI scan and 100% torn ACL from Tani otoshi just how it happened in this video....

feels like in 5 years he'll go "well... all moves are now illegal cuz ya know... judo/jiujitsu are fkn dangerous" lol

Soooo what are the ways to counter all these dangerous throws if someone were to do this to u be it on the street or sparring

I knew Ura Nage would appear here. That one throw is just too much for me. I've practiced Tani Otoshi many times, as well as some Osoto Makikomi, but I draw the line at Ura Nage. I've hurt *myself* attempting it lmao. If Tori gets hurt, and there's a high chance of Uke getting really hurt too, then you know that it's best not to use it.

The way the makikomi is executed here resembles harai goshi more than the makikomi move.

I practiced judo in france for 11 years, my specials were taiotoshi with a stranglement (wrists crossed, palms facing me), arai goshi followed by a heavy ongeza gatame, soto makikomi, iza guruma, and i loved tani otoshi and a yoko guruma for defense.

I wonder what u think of yoko wakare shiai version

I think we should forget about the “this is dangerous”. Now, I will agree a lot should be age appropriate. Osotogari has ended more judokas participation than any other (I would bet).

Is there a safe version of Tani Otoshi like a reverse Uki Waza? I do this all the time wirhout putting pressure on anyones knee cos I'm behind them and have never come close to hurting anyone

Wow its been 15 years when i was last practicing Judo and now seeing most of my favorite techniques being illegal feels bad. I can understand they wanted to make Judo more Olympic sport and minimize accidents but gotta admit competitions look way more boring than back in the days.

@nigelcooke6391

3 ай бұрын

Judo has been an Olympic sport since 1964,I was competing in the 1970s and 1980s when leg grabs were allowed, dislocated my knee in 1984,tore the cartilage off the bone,finished me competing

Tell Fuji to make some grappling shorts that are made out of gi trouser material in the usual gi colours

Welcome to Suplex City.

Yakura nage as a counter can be so beautiful though :)

for me its not sumi gaeshi ( like kawaisshi shows) its obitori gaeshi

a couple of these are very effective. When it comes to training you want to be safe with your partners but judo is a MARTIAL art correct?

10/10 fun to use

Im off training just now, due to a dislocation of my knee due to a bad throw by my partner. Hopefully il be back very soon.

Oss 👊🏻

A throw called "Sue ME!" what could go wrong?

Osoto maki is like my dojo's bread and butter

For sotomakikomi, it s more efficient to make your arm go UP and not down. More amplitude, more control and better fall. Same for sumi, it s better if you use your leg in this hips as a step to engage thé other leg between this legs. Like a balanced thing. Sry for english, not my native. Best regards from a 30 years old judo practionner. PS : some other stuff are more dangerous, like the New form of kata guruma.

When i was training judo and i was 14 i got hit by the second throw and i straight up scorpioned on the mat, this caused me to quite since it literally terrified me

Tani Otoshi took my knee for 3 weeks (thank god) during my second ever class. My training partner was an absolute moron and kept spamming that as his counter for everything. I went for an uchi mata next thing I knew he was dropping uncontrolled onto my knee. I ended up on top of him anyway so I don’t know what his goal was there. In a judo or BJJ comp I would have scored.

there goes some of my favourite techniques :(

For Tani Otoshi also make sure Uke doesn't land on Tori's knee. That would be hurtful, too

you can see how this was for fighting in armour.