Just started playing through the anniversary edition, my first time experiencing Braid. World 2 alone had me laughing at the screen out loud 3 times due to the sheer genius of the puzzles. Marvelous

On my second play through off Braid via the special edition after finding and completing the game around 2014. I spent a year just listening to the soundtrack and watching Johnathan blow interviews. As of this post the only piece remaining is ‘Crossing the Gap’ and the temptation to look up the answer is tremendous…

Regarding the point Casey made about Donkey Kong levels being done with two jumps if Mario had the jump he has in Super Mario Bros.: In 1994, they made a remake of Donkey Kong for the Game Boy that has about 90 additional levels after the arcade levels. In that game, Mario initially seemingly behaves similarly to "Jumpman" from the original, but he has additional moves like backflips and handstands while also being a bit more resilient. If you master those moves, you can solve the original levels in a matter of seconds. Many of the new levels are puzzle focused and are indeed larger than the initial batch of single-screen levels. I think it's the best game on the Game Boy and more people should check it out.

"Right". (c) Casey Muratori

@james-s-smith

Ай бұрын

I'm normally a defender of Casey's right to "Right." But the first 5-10 minutes of this one were pretty bad, even for me.

@simtrip6452

Ай бұрын

It's like Jon is playing an RTS and just idly selecting the Casey unit while he talks

@SnakeEngine

Ай бұрын

@@simtrip6452 Right.

@CaioMGA

Ай бұрын

who cares

Love these episodes, keep them coming!

Nice! Been looking forward to more of these - been enjoying the new edition.

Really interested in the full talk with our beloved Brian Moriarty! In the game I felt like the discussion was really highly cut, and most of it was just about the music, so yea

Hey Casey and Jon! I'll keep this short, but the past few days I've been in a catastrophic slump because of something bad I said. I've talked it out with my friends and we're on good terms, but this podcast has been my biggest source of happiness during that time. You're all ridiculously interesting, especially since I feel like your advice could be applied to several art forms!

it appeared when the thumbnail hadn't even loaded. Always love these talks, sure this will be a good one as well!:D

@____uncompetative

Ай бұрын

Super unprofessional. If they can't get something simple like that right then how good could the game be?

@nerdError0XF

Ай бұрын

​@@____uncompetative 😐

@zeozen

Ай бұрын

@@____uncompetative lmao what are you on? I'm saying youtube hadn't properly finalized the thumbnail when I saw it, because by chance I saw it the second/minute it was uploaded

This was great!

Jon's clearly learned a lot over the years. For me, The Witness was an upgrade to Braid (in terms of game design quality), and what I'm _really_ looking forward to is their banana game. I don't want to set my expectations too high though.

@ohfacts

Ай бұрын

What do we know about the banana game?

perfect length for that one puzzle

Amazing, hom many details should be considered about a smaller jump. I salute you

While every puzzle of a game should work together to make a cohesive whole, I'm glad topics on a discussion can be a string of random tangents tangled together like a clump of overboiled spaghetti. (To be clear it was tasty overboiled spaghetti).

43:37 oh no, it's a "Gang of Four" situation all over again 😩

The idea of pattern matching as the only tool and why is a failure mode is super interesting. And I think it's a good initial explanation for the mediocrity in AI

My fiance likes puzzles. As a fan of JB I've insisted that she install Braid on Netflix since she already has it on her iPad. She has put the game down in 10 minutes after she had problems jumping on 2 enemies in succession to get the puzzle piece hanging in the air. For some reason I thought that she would really enjoy the puzzles but the platforming was too big of an obstacle for her to even get to them. She died and rewinded the time a dozen of times when trying to get the piece and decided that this is all that it is to this game: dying and rewiding.

@mescellaneous

Ай бұрын

that is the slight pet peeve i have with the impression of jon towards the community. braid and witness are not what i consider pinnacle puzzle games, and consequently jon is not the best puzzle designer ever. the anniversary levels kind of demonstrate that, where the puzzles didn't get much more clever. jon is a great puzzle GAME PROGRAMMER. but his emphasis on speed as mastery grates me a bit. not what i would consider mastery when it comes to puzzle games. while there is rewind, it still plays as a "bang your head until you land the move", not "use it when you got the wrong idea". what could have been interesting is if rewind was also analog (though i imagine this would be hard on the coding side), or at least fractional rewind speeds. using the mouse to control the speed of rewind by a fraction... could make it easier if you can rewind at like 1/4 speed.

@nerdError0XF

Ай бұрын

I think thats why the witness is what it is. It has no obstacles between you and puzzles and you can focus on them, without needing to do agility checks So yea, i guess she should either play on other platforms with better controls or just play the witness instead

@DoobooDomo

Ай бұрын

IIRC you could control the rewind speed while rewinding. I definitely know folks who were gatekept by their platforming skills, so that certainly limits the audience of Braid. Would you elaborate on what you mean about "speed as mastery?" Which are the pinnacle puzzle games that you like?

@EmceeBleach

Ай бұрын

You're going to marry Brian Moriarty?

@Paul-to1nb

Ай бұрын

@@mescellaneous It's true that Braid requires physical skill. But the Witness is much more of a pure puzzle game (more than Portal, even). It does not require speed (aka physical skill) to complete the game. Only the optional gauntlet requires any serious physical skill. And it's a completely optional area. Once you're done with it, there's nothing left, so it's not like it's gating anything. It's a fair challenge IMO cause it really tests how innately you understand the mechanics and it is completely optional.

1:17:58 "Hello Computer" :)

Is there going to be any more of these?

I’m really enjoying the anniversary edition! I wish that the doors for each commentary room were uniquely painted like the icons for the design/programming/art interactive objects to reinforce that connection, and if the icons would change state once you completed that section of the commentary.

@Seacle14

Ай бұрын

Not exactly what you're saying, but the books indicate which commentaries you have finished.

@nerdError0XF

Ай бұрын

​@Seacle14 he is specifically talking about doors. He obviously knows about books

@nerdError0XF

Ай бұрын

I wanted same thing, at least for puzzles because i couldnt find the last one, but yea, in the end i just was missing some pretty obvious door :D

I have a question. Is this podcast redundant with what's in the game? I saw there is a part 'interview' in the commentary world but I don't know if this section include this whole podcast.

@nerdError0XF

Ай бұрын

Those podcasts are full discussions, and in the game there are cut parts from them. So you can here a full thing there. Im still not sure how much is cut (well, discussion are still releasing and i not finished all commentary in the game yet), but seems like its a considerable amount so those podcasts are worth listening.

21:15 now I want a Calvino-World with lower bit-depth

An 'Aha! Moment' is comprised two components and can be likened to opening a gift, where... 'aha' = content of the gift 'moment' = opening the gift The surprise & thrill of the 'opening' can be said to be the joy of discovery taking place. However, how worthwhile that discovery is depends on the 'content' inside of it, as that is what the recipient takes away in the end. I believe this is why Jon puts a premium on the 'idea' in each puzzle. If people design only for the 'moment' without consideration for the 'aha' itself, then the result will likely be a superficial thrill with no real substance. And with no real substance gained, the recipient has not grown from the time prior to receiving the gift. To use Jon's previous expression: "a nothing burger" -- Using templates is not necessarily a bad thing since they can be used to assist process, but it is a different matter to rely on them entirely and blindly, as that severely limits the possibility space of expression. As the template itself has nothing to say, it is up to the artist/designer to imbue their creation with something worthwhile to impart to the audience. Over-reliance on templates basically kills this possibility, and a creation with nothing to express is typically uninteresting. No matter how enhanced or refined a process becomes, it is not a replacement for artistic intent.

Right

One model for the thing that Casey describes at 1:02:28 is a simplicial set. Simplicial sets are fascinating. ..."design simplicial sets"?

The puzzle design in braid is very forgiving - Multiple times when just exploring a level you sort of naturally stumble upon the solution. (spoilers ahead) the completed picture in world 2 being standable, the world 4 head bounce to reset the lever, etc. You just play around with the world and often the solution makes itself apparent. I sort of felt deprived of the joy of solving it for myself the first time, but the times after that I became enamoured with a joy of discovery instead of deduction. Is this repeated accidental discoveries built into the puzzle design deliberately? Or is it just a result of the constrained possibilities of how few interactable objects have any ability to progress the puzzle (which thinking about it, identifying what has the ability to progress the puzzle, even if you have no idea how to leverage it, is still some effort put into "solving" not "discovering"), and if you fiddle around with them a bit the solution has to fall out eventually? Does the game even want to distinguish between analysis and discovery - is observing the symbiosis of the two entirely the point to begin with? I have no idea!!! But It's a special game indeed when you can have fun twice - Once playing the game, and once thinking about the game! Loving the interviews.

I really hate these podcasts because they're so dense that you have to actually stop and pay attention.

@Seacle14

Ай бұрын

Seems like the best possible criticism to have!

@SimonM7TV

Ай бұрын

haha exactly, I jumped back five times yesterday until I realised I had to listen to some goofy key jangly thing instead and return to this today 😅

@eyvahehyeh8927

Ай бұрын

Haha I felt the same way with the clips in the game. Thought I could solve puzzles while listening because I solved them back in the say, but nope. 😄

So the "Aha-Moment" design is incomplete... There needs to be a deeper meaning behind it... Now I ask myself why Jon praised games like "Snakebird" and "Stephen's Sausage Roll" when "The Witness" released, because I can't find any deeper meaning behind the puzzles in those games. Or did I miss something? Don't tell me the deeper meaning is to improve my barbecue skills? Or making birds without wings fly...

@bw7601

Ай бұрын

did you finish stephen sausage roll?

@jack_crawford

Ай бұрын

Not sure where you're getting the thing about "deeper meaning". He's just saying there has to be some kind of important content to the puzzles. Snakebird and SSR are very intentional and thoughtful about what is communicated through the puzzle design, just like Braid is. Maybe listen to that part of the podcast again.

@james-s-smith

Ай бұрын

I think you're confusing "deeper meaning" with "narrative" here. The things Jon is referring to as being communicated here are not the narrative conceits of the game; they are the concrete consequences and emergent properties of the gamestate which arise from the behavior and interaction of objects. The point of The Witness's puzzles is that all of them are communicating a concrete idea to the player, and those ideas can be leveraged to solve more complex puzzles and to understand more complex mechanics. Braid's puzzles are similar, as are the puzzles in Snakebird, Stephen's Sausage Roll, Baba Is You, A Monster's Expedition, Taiji, and many other puzzle games. I also think many of the most popular puzzle games, such as The Talos Principle, Portal, and Antichamber, engage in this behavior to a large extent, even if they don't do that uniformly.

@cokeysezbin7899

Ай бұрын

I don't think he means a deeper meaning in a philosophical sense. I think he means that the puzzles should communitcate some consequence of the game's rules; they should tell you something "about" those rules, rather than just being a sequence of steps that you have to figure out the correct ordering of. Stephen's Sausage Roll's puzzles are about the specifics of how the player moves and how the sausages move. Like, there are very clear ideas being communicated in those puzzles. They aren't just all the same as each other, but with arbitrarily more steps to the solution. In order to complete the puzzles the player has to gain an understanding of the consequences of that game's weird movement system. Snakebird is similar.

@DAS_k1ishEe

Ай бұрын

@@jack_crawford @cokeysezbin7899 OK, the problem I got with that interpretation is, that I don't feel these "Aha-Moments" unless there is no "some kind of important content to the puzzles" or "consequence of the game's rules". These things are the same to me and everything not fullfilling these rules feels to me like busy work and not "Aha". Portal 2 got lots of "busy work" transporting the funny narrative, so I give Valve a pass there. Maybe we could call these moments "I didn't realize I could do that"-Moments, to differentiate them better.

Anybody else just completely lose track of what is even being communicated at points? Jon will drop a bunch of words in regular conversation that I NEVER hear outside of his lexicon, and its often in relation to nebulous ideas and games he wont name. Am I alone?

@MisterAwesan

Ай бұрын

I can follow it all pretty easily but i have some knowledge of the things they are talking about already both from a programming pov and a game design pov.

@Yohoat

Ай бұрын

​@@MisterAwesan I understand plenty of the design talk, I'm talking specifically about how he goes about communicating it. They start comparing game design principles to splitting cells and molecules, I don't hear this much. Comparing the Valve teachings to the screenplay 3 act structure? That's something I can grasp, it's times when suddenly these other things pop up lol

@kenneth_romero

Ай бұрын

@@Yohoatthe atoms and molecules part is a pretty abstract way to view design. i think casey summed it up well tho, you may need to just relisten to how casey streamlined jonathan's thought. but i agree, it takes jonathan a bit longer to formalize his view on game design in a coherent manner at times.

@SuperGGnoRE

29 күн бұрын

@@YohoatRead some of Italo Calvino's books and you'll see where it comes from.