Having designed and produced lots of solid tool posts for small-medium lathe owners, I feel compelled to offer a few comments. But first I’d like to really commend you for advocating the use of a solid tool post (plinth mounting block) in lieu of the compound on small 10-13" lathes when the compound is not required to profile tapered elements. Indeed, the compound on these smaller lathes is the root of rigidity limitations. A solid tool post setup will drastically improve rigidity, provide for increased material removal rates, and tighter tolerances - not to mention lowering chatter. Additionally, I love how your videos wander off in all directions (custom iron casting, producing a casting plug (mold) with the 3D printer, designing the mold in Fusion 360, etc.). Thank you for doing more than showing us videos of peeling off chips !! With that said, I would like to offer a few comments on the subject of solid tool posts that may be instructive to your viewers. 1 - While the Multifix QCTP would be ideal if starting from scratch, the benefits of a solid tool post are equally applicable to Aloris-style QCTP setups. It is not necessary to convert from Aloris, and all the implied tool holder change-outs, to gain the benefits of a solid tool post mounting system. 2 - It’s worth emphasizing that if the height of the solid tool post plinth block is identical to the height of the compound, either can be swapped out for the other with NO impacts on tool height adjustments. 3 - While I admire all the educational value of doing a custom cast-iron plinth block, this effort is not necessary to achieve the benefits of a solid tool post for most users with 10-13” lathes. Indeed, in my own experience, 7075 aluminum, or a block of 1018 steel is perfectly sufficient for lathes in this size range, and a chuck of such material is typically available (even from McMaster) for $100 or less. Having said that, if you were putting 5 horsepower into a negative rake Trigon insert tool, cast iron might indeed prove beneficial as the plinth block material because of it’s shock-absorption characteristics. Thanks again for a great video.

@HM-Projects

Жыл бұрын

Yes, that's what I ended up doing. 1020 mild steel that I had around worked very well. One thing I didn't do but will need to is modify it to pinch the tool post in one corner to reduce the reliance on pure downward pressure.

@v8Mercury

Жыл бұрын

Thanks for your comments.

I did the compound delete on my 14x42, and it changed my life. It's amazing how much the rigidity changes the lathe's personality. In 5 years since I did the delete, I've only needed to swap back to the compound twice.

@thejoetandy

Жыл бұрын

What sort of operations needed you to swap back?

@ZPositive

Жыл бұрын

@@thejoetandy a precision taper and picking up an internally cut thread for cleanup.

@joergengeerds360

Жыл бұрын

cutting threads with a STP is easy/possible, or not advisable?

@ZPositive

Жыл бұрын

@@joergengeerds360 cutting fresh threads with it is no problem at all. Especially with large external threads, the added rigidity makes the experience downright pleasant. Picking up existing threads for cleanup can be difficult with the STP, but not impossible. Nowadays I loosen the tool from the tool holder, align it with the existing threads, and re-tighten the tool into the holder.

@DavidKutzler

Жыл бұрын

Parting was a nightmare on my 7 x 16 inch Chinese lathe, especially with "gummy" metals like brass. I machined a solid tool post riser out of a length of 2 x 2 steel square stock to replace my compound, and my parting blade goes through metal like butter. I only replace the compound on the rare occasions when I need to cut a tapered feature.

James, you do excellent work with everything. I'll bet you have short learning curves. Now I have to wait till you get the casting back and do another video. Your tutorial on 360 is at a university level. Bravo. Thank you for sharing.

@summerforever6736

Жыл бұрын

Yes he is an expert to me

Clark sent me over to see you make the pattern and now I am hooked! I am an old woodworker with no machining skill or equipment so I watch our of curiosity alone (and envy at the tolerances you hold compared to woodworking). I'll be watching your channel as I subscribed.

man you're so fluent with that software. I wish I knew it that well.

I use F360 for my LS Crossfire Pro plasma cutter to make random stuff for people. Even in 2D, text can be a challenge... I just about spit out my mouthful of dinner to laugh when you mentioned the challenge of making the raised 3D lettering on a compound curved surface. What an understatement! From my perspective, your Fusion 360 Fu is very strong...

@laurawerner

Жыл бұрын

FYI, the "Fusion 360 School" channel has some good videos on how to emboss / deboss text onto a surface with compound curves. There's no simple way to make the embossed features perfectly aligned with the compound surface, but he's come up with some clever techniques that often look just as good. It's a great channel for an intermediate F360 user.

@p.t.anderson1593

Жыл бұрын

@@laurawerner Thanks

James you make everything you do look easy! I wait anxiously for your videos great education and entertainment at the same time.

Oh man, thank you so much! I can’t wait to see this finished so I can incorporate it into my G0602. Excellent as always! Hope the hand is healing up well.

@Clough42

Жыл бұрын

It healed quickly. I had a powerlifting meet a week after that and pulled a 205kg deadlift with it. :)

Awesome video production/discussion/design/demonstration….enjoyed!

Very cool to see you do this mod as well, in your own way. When I built mine for my newest lathe, I was lucky enough to find a seller that sold large slices of cast iron, they were 200mm diameter by 60mm thickness and around 80€. So I just milled the whole thing out of solid.

Looks great! Love the contours! Can’t wait to see the cast part come back!

Very neat, thanks to you and Clarke.

This is great, making casting patterns was the reason I got my 3D printer originally, always cool to see it done by others 😁

Once again you have delivered a fun to watch and informative video. Every time you talk us through a Fusion 360 session, I learn a lot. Showing how to make "finished model" and the "casting model" was fascinating. As soon as I finished watching I jumped onto the Windy Hill video to see it come to life. The only downside is having to wait for the machining video.

I love this! I am an electronics engineer, but totally hooked on machining. At the moment I am just breaking in to CAD, and this video clearified a lot of things for me. 💝

I really enjoy the step by step design using cad . amazing work James can't wait for the next video ❤👍.

Superb work! as Usual !!!Cheers from Toronto!!!

I did the compound delete on my old Jet 9x20. It turned it from a toy to a tool. World of difference. Your gonna love it!

Thank you, appreciated. Very well made part and video. Narrative and videography spot on, and very good storytelling. Best regards, Annie

Very nice, looking forward to seeing the finished part. You may want to print plugs to go over the mounting screws to keep swarf out. Cheers

Outstanding video.

My first thought upon seeing your test with the 3D printed parts was that those bolt holes will fill up with swarf and oil in no time. If you can print flexible filament, maybe a contoured rubber-like plug to cover the bolts would be a good addition?

@Clough42

Жыл бұрын

I can, and I probably will.

Always learn something from you videos, today even more then usual. Thank you.

Nice work!

So stoked on your content! I have been following the Maker KZread channels for a long time and it's rare you get to see the process CAD to Cast. Thanks for your time and effort.

Really enjoyed the details explanation of the project from conception to design to manufacturing.

Nice work as always!

Another awesome video James! I really like the idea of having a custom riser block cast. I just got a lathe of my own and designed a riser block for it. I hadn't considered printing it first to verify fit and stuff, so I will definitely do that before I start machining. Also, I highly recommend the wham bam system for your Elegoo M2P- It makes part removal sooooo much easier. Cant wait to see that casting!

I always learn a new Fusion technique, thanks.

That half-inch tool looks enormous on that lathe!

Another fun video.....Thanks for sharing....Stay sate and well.....

Interesting project!

Hi James, Nice design for the tool post riser. Looking forward to when you receive the casting from Clark. Hope he makes a video when he prepares to pour the casting. You and your family stay safe.

Very talented.

Thanks James, you sure are good with some of these programs. I made a solid tool post and deliberately machined the height lower so my Aloris tool holder would allow the full range of Aloris tooling, which it now does. The reason I didn't go with an indexing holder is the individual tool holders are more expensive and I have about 30 or more tool holder. I just loosen the Aloris and turn it to the angle I want which doesn't happen very often. I like that once the Aloris is square to the lathe I have the 90° set instead of having to change the index position.

Great video. Thank you.

Very impressive, yet again another thing I need to do to my lathe, thanks. I have the multifix system and love it, it was the main reason I bought the lathe.

@chrislee7817

Жыл бұрын

Just out of interest what will the work holding look like on this part? I'm guessing central hole first?

Thats a great idea!!! Thanks mate!

I did a compound delete on my lathe not long after buying it. Your approach is much more elegant than mine. I just took a chunk of steel and milled it to the shape I wanted. But I'm not making KZread content, so I'm the only one who sees it. Love the rigidity from removing the compound.

Wait for the alcohol to settle and drain it slowly with a tube. Sludge left on the bottom can be dried and disposed. Filter the alcohol with a fine tissue strainer. That's what I do anyhow. Cool informative video as always. Thank you.

James, I have the same lathe, and you can mostly solve the compound flexibility problem simply by rotating the compound collar around backward. Of course, then you cannot see the protractor. My permanent solution was to make a new collar with a much thicker bridge over the protractor. This works so well that I couldn't imagine suffering the inconvenience of deleting my compound.

I learned a lot today from your fusion class, could you do more on things like this please if possible thanks for the great content over the years, long time lurker :) I plan to make a solid toolpost for my lathe also soon and mill with my home made cnc machine :D

Nice James.

I dont know how I'd live without a compound.

@5tr41ghtGuy

Жыл бұрын

No kidding. Cutting tapers would be ... difficult.

Very nice design an explanation👍

Watched your vids for a while. been very impressed. but this one is a WOW. I Rarely comment. keep it goin on.

That looks like it should serve the purpose well. I've always used scrap and cut out of solid stock, simply to get it done, but that will do fine and look good on top. Thanks!

I don't have the software, so when I built mine, methods were old school to say the least. Having also struggled with a source for appropriate cast stock, I bought a new cast anvil from Harbor Freight and sawed and milled away everything that didn't look like the finished riser block. Because I wanted to thread the usual way and the upside down Joe Pie way, the fuss factor for height was a bit extreme. I thought about reaching out to Clark, but the anvil only set be back about 70 USD.

Thanks for sharing 👍

Nice one James always an interesting video, will be interesting to see what the extra rigidity makes when finished

you can use the manufacturing space in fusion and create a manufacturing model. any changes made on the manufacturing model does not change the original design, however changes to the original design will take affect in the manufacturing one. This allows you to have different versions of a model (u can make as many manufacturing models as u want). This is great when you have multi step machining (i mean goin from one machine to another) and you need to derive a new "stock model" to work on. this is essentially what you are doing, you are starting with your cast model, and need to add all the features that couldnt be cast etc.

James, I've been using your videos to mod my g0602 lathe, and I thank you for all the video help I received from you. I received the PeeWee tool post today. And now I need you to help me with the solid compound. Keep up the great work!!!

Well now you have a reason to buy a Wire EDM machine, you can make custom multifix holders :)

That's the sexiest tool post base i've ever seen!

That is cool.

I have a size A Multifix from AXA and apart from the 20mm mounting hole it has two 6.0mm alignment holes for dowel pins. I assume yours have them too. I highly recommend to use them to avoid any movement of the post. If you add a few more holes with the right spacing, you can even increase the 40 times 9 degree positions of the Multifix down to 1 degree if you wish by rotating the post from dowel to dowel...You would have to turn a stud for the 20mm center hole to rotate around though, but I believe you will do that anyway to achieve a reapeatable mounting position of the post on the riser...

@Clough42

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, I haven't decided exactly what I'm going to pin. I have the correct reamer, though. Some have suggested pinning the riser to the cross slide as well.

Cool bananas mate 👍

Man, 3d printing, casting aaand a multifix tool post in one video woo-hoo. I love the multifix tool post.,ive got one on my small mini lathe. =)

Enjoyed the process presentation particularly the Fusion 360 part. The 3D printer was intriguing, my kids want one and I need to find out more about it in order to get a system that will work for them. You just kicked up the whole youtube tech campus up a couple of notches.

@Clough42

Жыл бұрын

I think getting kids started with 3D printing is a great idea. It can be challenging, though, if you want to do more than download and print anime characters. The biggest impediment I've found is designing parts to print. The software can have a steep learning curve, and designing for the limitations of the print technology requires some understanding of how the part is going to be printed (orientation, support, etc.). Filament printers (with PLA) are pretty user friendly, as long as the printer is decent and you get the bed adhesion sorted. Resin printers are capable of much higher resolutions, but the resin is messy, stinky, and toxic. It requires a lot of discipline to keep from getting it on your gloves and then spreading it everywhere. Some kids could handle it easily. Others would immediately tip a liter of resin into the carpet. I'm not even sure how one would clean that up. :)

Very nice video thanks for sharing, :o)

Cool 👍👍😎👍👍

Now this is a crazy good video. Many people come to me like "oh 3D printers are for trinkets and plastic toys!" - now I get to send them here and show them this.

Very nice! I went and watched it being cast. That’s gonna look really nice nickel plated. 😬

That certainly has the possibility of greaty simplifyng pattern shop wok!

One consideration is a flat area for a post/rod to attach to for an indicator if you are so inclined. Excellent video.

I have the Pewe Multifix A on my Shoptask. I had a spare solid tool post block from the weird Shoptask QCTP, so I just had to trim that a few mm and make a big T-bolt to run up the middle.

I have one of the little 7x12 mini lathes and made two different blocks to replace the compound; one similar to this video (though just a small block of steel), the other is a little longer and allows the toolpost to be mounted further away from the lathe centre; as that allows a tool to access the outside edge of 6" diameter disk. I haven't really missed the compound on that lathe, though since adding a Colchester Chipmaster to the workshop I have ended up using the compound on that machine quite a few times.

Always good to spot test your acetone cleanup before preceding. Acetone is brutal on some types of surfaces and might cause you a bigger mess than the initial spillage.

Hi James, interesting and informative video as always - thanks for that! When designing parts in Fusion 360 that need "tweaks" in order to 3D print well (or in your case caste), I usually design the "perfect world" component first, then derive a new part (or component) from that original component and make any design tweaks necessary to enhance the 3D printing of it. Any design changes you make to the original part can flow into the tweaked part easily and you don't have to futz around with the timeline as you were doing in this video. If you haven't looked into derived components, it's worth a look.

Watching Windy Hill Foundry I heard your birthday mentioned. Happy Belated Birthday. I turned 63 on the 14th. Best wishes from Ralph.

@Clough42

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, I'm not sure if that was just a comment about getting new tools. It isn't my birthday.

@ralphnorman4636

Жыл бұрын

@@Clough42 ... If it wasn't your birthday, best wishes anyway.

James you are A expert with that fusion 360 and the other! That printer is amazing! I thought you were going to put your channel name on the block so if you decide to sell this in the future ...I guess you can change that later...nice work!

I really hope Autodesk add proper configurations support soon in Fusion, I also miss that from SolidWorks, and It’s at the top of my wishlist. Nice versions trick btw. Also, cool use of 3D printing. Can’t wait for the next video.

I like that he complimented you lettering.

Very smart and well approached. Your cad was fun, and I love the idea. Thanks. BTW you clickbaited me, but when I realized you weren't about to actually machine with a plastic tool post, I decided I had better stick around to see what you was getting at. :) the cross slide coming off had to feel like a bad tooth finally being removed.

Very nice part. I like what the resin printer does. I've had one for over a year but haven't tried to use it yet!! One day I'll try if I have the right part to print! I just use a filament printer for now. Thanks for the very good video.

@Clough42

Жыл бұрын

I do the same. The reason print is used much less often because of the mess.

@zachbrown7272

Жыл бұрын

@@Clough42 someone should get you a Form 3. I think you'd really like some of our engineering resins (particularly Tough 1500 and Rigid 10k), and the mess is drastically reduced by using our post processing work flow as well as interchangeable build plate/tank system.

@Clough42

Жыл бұрын

@@zachbrown7272 yeah, I would use a Form 3 if one were to come into my possession. I could find use for a Fuse 1, too, if someone's offering. :)

@j.dietrich

Жыл бұрын

@@zachbrown7272 Resin printers are awesome for a lot of users, but they're quite niche in the machine shop. There are lots of lightly-stressed parts with fairly loose tolerances that are trivial to print with FFF. There are lots of heavily-stressed and/or tightly toleranced parts that need to be machined. I own an SLA printer, I like it, but I rarely find it to be the best tool for the job.

I have a Multifix, admittedly a bit extravagant given how much I use my Takisawa lathe, but it's a delight to use.

@cooperised

Жыл бұрын

I agonised for months over a Multifix clone vs an Aloris clone. The Multifix is definitely better, but in the end I couldn't justify the price. It turned out to be a good decision for me because I can make AXA toolholders on the mill all day long, but I don't think I'd have the skills or patience to crank out Multifix holders. Do you make your own holders and if so how do you find it?

Excellent video! I see JLCPCB is offering 3d printed stainless parts now. Might be interesting now that you have the hard work done :)

Nice

G'day James, I would love to see how you did your raised lettering. I too have gone down this path and it was not an elegant solution. Keep up the excellent videos.

Thought at the start I'd clicked to watch This Old Tony!

Nice...

You can also select the Keep Hole option and have a premade plug that will fit the hole exactly.

@Clough42

Жыл бұрын

Assuming perfect dimensional control.

@kmoecub

Жыл бұрын

@@Clough42 Of course. But in practice it does seem to work. At least with the resins that I've used so far.

James, in the dig hole function just check the "keep the hole" box and it will produce the cone plugs for you. No need to model.

@Clough42

Жыл бұрын

I tried that, but it put the plug in an inconvenient place and on its side, where it would require more support cleanup, so I skipped it.

I was excited when I saw the heading I thought you were getting into metal casting. Probably too dirty for you anyway. :)

This should be a great improvement. I have a 9x20 lathe that I deleted the compound on and it's a completely different machine after doing so.

Does a 20 plus part series on deleting the change gears, making threading easier. Deletes compound slide. Memes aside, it is much nicer than the standard square block.

I'm a bit surprised you didn't add any dowel pins to the mount. Other than that, it looks excellent.

In F360, get all the features that you want in model for the casting and the 3D printed part. Then do a Move/Copy. Select the check box in MOVE/COPY dialog called "Create Copy," you can either offset to the side or just leave it in place (dealers choice). I like to move a copy off to the side but hey do what you want. Now you have a model copy that will adapt to any changes that you *go back in the history* and make changes to. BUT, if you make new changes *going forward in history* , like the counter sunk bolt holes, and the draft removal, they will only apply to the one model and not the copy. You can also add thickness to the top/bottom and scale the *to be casted model* with no impact on the original. This gives you a divergence point between the two models and you can hide/show the body that you want to see, easy peasy. =)

@Clough42

Жыл бұрын

That's another good idea I hadn't thought of. I hadn't realized the history would stay connected, but I guess there's no reason it wouldn't.

@ianide2480

Жыл бұрын

@@Clough42 I don't want to sound like some "knowitall" but, if I may make another suggestion. Don't mess around with the draft tool on text. Create a plane at roughly the same angle as your surface, and sketch the text onto it. Extrude the text to the surface, create a new body. Use SURFACE tools - CREATE - OFFSET. Select the surface where the text is going to reside. Key in the offset value for how high you want the text. This will create a cutting tool to cut the new text bodies with. Back to SOLID tools, Split Body. Now use the (just created) offset face to cut the text. Hide all the unwanted bodies. Combine the text to the main body. Use Chamfer (not draft), Type: Two Distance. Height value will be the same as the offset you keyed in earlier, width will be whatever you decide is good. MUCH less work than futzing around with each letter. While selecting edges make sure to change the selection filter to edges only...

@Clough42

Жыл бұрын

@@ianide2480 this is basically what I did. The problem is that the chamfer tool fails about half the time under these conditions, requiring lots of tedious hand work on an edge-by-edge basis. I think the solver does okay following the compound curved surfaces most of the time, but every font I've tried has lots of slightly non-tangent curves on some edges, and these wreak havoc with the fillet and chamfer tools. The solution that eventually worked the best was to make a small chamfer around the top of the letter, then delete the remaining vertical surfaces. While this worked, it requires enormous compute resources if you make changes in the timeline.

@ianide2480

Жыл бұрын

@@Clough42 I tried the Arial font - adjusted the character spacing and put the text on a "similar" face with compound curves. Now, I'm no magician when it comes to all types of CAD but this worked for me with zero issues and only took a few minutes. The story may be completely different if I was using your exact model. Everything changes with a slight curvature difference.

Excellent content as usual "Clow", or as we'd pronounce it over here in the UK "Cluff" 😁

@Clough42

Жыл бұрын

It's French, and was originally spelled Cluffe. One John Cluffe seems to have come over to the new world as a stowaway, running from the law.

Once it is finished, you could 3D print some plugs for the mounting bolt holes that match the contour of the top. You could include a small (1mm) horizontal hole just above the lowest point of the contour on each plug so you can lift them out with a paper clip or small Allen wrench.

@somebodyelse6673

Жыл бұрын

I think it's about time we drop the redundant "3D" in the context of printing parts. I hope there's noone that would think the parts are 2D. Saying you're going to print a plug isn't going to confuse anybody.

You could print some plugs for the mounting screw holes to keep chips out.

Wish I'd known some of these casting practices when I was designing a cast part for work. I let the casting vendor modify everything to make it easier to manufacture, but I could have done most of these things before to make it easier for the vendor.

Looks like you're a shareholder ar Shars :-) Thanks, I always enjoy your content.

@Clough42

Жыл бұрын

I've been using Shars stuff for years. Some of the HSS cutting tools are questionable, and I bought a surface gage that wasn't as flat as I would prefer :) but a lot of their stuff is pretty good. You will be seeing more from them in the future, as they approached me in the last couple of months to ask if I needed anything for the channel. But that's a new development.

@JohannSwart_JWS

Жыл бұрын

@@Clough42 Well, they asked the right guy :-). Since I do not reside in the States, I don't know Shars, I just happened to notice their logo everywhere in your shop. But I know the kind of brand.

Happy birthday.

I really like the idea of the solid tool post block. I have had a conversation many times with fellow machinists and I know it isn't highly agree upon and I do understand the variety of options. When single point thread cutting the I believe the proper way to advance the depth is by setting the compound slide @ 29.5° and advancing with the compound. Do you subscribe to that method and if so are you willing to abandon that process by eliminating the compound. I am an older guy and I use the compound slide when threading on my little manual bench top machine at home. I find it cuts a much better finish on the thread given the lack of rigidity on my little bench top machine. I think it has a lot to do with the lead screw and half nut as I disengage the half nut while cutting threads I'm not big on running in reverse to start my next cut. I just found your channel and I really enjoy your thoughts and deliberate explanation of your process. Thanks I would love to hear your opinion on the single point thread cutting. I'm already a fan of your work.

@aceroadholder2185

Жыл бұрын

Mike, I also cut threads like you do using the compound slide. There are two reasons I've never seen mentioned that make this method preferable over plunging straight in. First, if plunging straight in you have to keep track of the cross slide setting for each pass whereas if using the compound you only have to return the cross slide to the "zero" that you have set. Secondly, if you bring the threading tool close to the work you can set the cross slide crank handle at about the 10:30 o'clock position and set "zero". The compound slide then is used to bring the threading tool to the work and then set "zero" on the compound's dial. The advantage here is that at the end of the thread the cross slide crank handle can be easily snapped back so the threading tool clears the work. This helps a great deal when threading to a shoulder or out of a thread where a thread relief is not permitted.

@mp6756

Жыл бұрын

@@aceroadholder2185 Thanks I really appreciate your taking the time to reply. I'm looking forward to see how your casting turns out. I have the same trouble of the tool diving below center on heavy cuts. Thank again. Great videos

@aceroadholder2185

Жыл бұрын

@@mp6756 You are welcome, but it's not my video.

@randyshoquist7726

Жыл бұрын

The 29.5° method you describe is the textbook method, and the way I do it too. But lots of people report entirely satisfactory results by feeding straight in, including KZread machining gurus like Stefan Gotteswinter and Robin Renzetti, I believe. Both are strong proponents of solid tool post riser, too.

Per my comment on Windy Hill Foundry, I am definitely interested in seeing the casting available for sale. Incidentally - I fixed the tool height problem by shaving 1/16" off the bottom of my compound. Had to narrow down a wrench to access the clamping nuts.

@Clough42

Жыл бұрын

That's a really good idea. Even a tiny bit more space would make a big difference.

22:55 Id love to see a video on how you made that feature. I had to do make a similar feature embossed on a bowled surface and it was a total pain.

Can't wait for Clark to finish the casting. Can you ask him to document the process? When will part 2 be available?

@Clough42

Жыл бұрын

I think he'll need to do the casting before he can release the video. :)

Happy Birfday, James

Another great video James, thank you! Is getting a smooth surface finish the main reason you use a resin printer? Closest I get is acetone bathing abs, but this isn't consistent enough for what I need.

@Clough42

Жыл бұрын

I wanted a smooth surface, and I have a resin printer, so it was a good match. I've not messed with vapor smoothing, but that's my impression: it's hard to control dimensionally. I wonder what would happen to the raised text if I got enough vapor smoothing to erase the layer lines.