Thanks!

@PeriscopeFilm

11 ай бұрын

Thanks for the generous gift. Donations like this help us save and post more endangered and rare films! Please consider joining us on Patreon.com/PeriscopeFilm

I'm 55. Taught to solder at 12 by my dad who worked for Northern Electric and he soldered telephone equipment all day every day for 32 years. I became an electronic technician and have done it professionally for 30 years. This is one of the best videos I've seen. My son, who is 22 asked me to teach him how to solder the other day. I've sent him this video and tomorrow we'll get to practice. Thanks for this.

@supertramp6011

2 жыл бұрын

I’d love to have some lessons from you. But in the meantime,I’ll try and learn from this excellent video. 👌

@rubenmejia942

2 жыл бұрын

You're teaching your son skills that people are willing to pay money for. That's what young men need.

@olivervision

2 жыл бұрын

This is the comment that really validated my sheer excitement at clicking on an old 'Nasa soldering techniques' video.. My Dad taught me too.

@willmorrison1022

2 жыл бұрын

I'm 63, and my Dad taught me when I was about ten. I've soldered for money more than once, and I learned at my first job out of college about this level of NASA work there. We built power supplies for various industries, including Lockheed, Martin Marietta and NASA. It's always been a skill I could fall back on when I needed to. Looking for a gig right now, in fact, we'll see if anyone will let this old man keep working. I have done all kinds of work for myself, including things like guitar effects pedals and amps, and various electronic gizmos to make life a little less boring. Teaching your son this skill will only give him more options in the future, and that's always a good thing.

@galeforce69420

2 жыл бұрын

Ok ‘Greg’

20:44 contains some very wise words that apply to any form of management: "a good inspector is not there to criticize and neg. His job is to improve and maintain quality standards. He must lead by being aware of the latest methods of inspection and operation. He must promote flexibility of thought, but he must be inflexible in his demands of perfection."

@stefansynths

2 жыл бұрын

He says "criticize and nag", not "neg".

@Nikko780

2 жыл бұрын

Who's the nag now?

@jimcervantes5659

2 жыл бұрын

@@Nikko780 He's just being inflexible in his demands and perfection. Try to be a little more flexible in your thought.

@cme98

2 жыл бұрын

A GREAT inspector, on the other hand, follows the documentation within the boundaries of pass or fail & does not invent their own standards within those boundaries. It’s a sad day when one inspector rejects something because they have that power, but does not have documentation to back it up, but simply because it’s almost a failure which means it passes in the eye of one inspector but doesn’t meet the perfection criteria of another. Not everything can be built to perfection & not everything has to be perfect to run. We have documentation to go by written by people more qualified than we are & when we start to create our own because we can, makes for a more expensive product, not a better product. A great inspector does not improve quality standards their job is to FOLLOW quality standards. However, if standards can be improved there is nothing wrong with informing people how to reach perfection through demonstration, but it doesn’t mean they have to perfect their method if their method is within passing ranges set forth in documentation. Fact is, nobody is perfect & anybody expecting total perfection needs counseling & shouldn’t be an inspector.

@greggc.touftree5936

2 жыл бұрын

That's racist, and you are reported.

Man, gotta love that in 1958, the only experience you needed to work at NASA was truck driving, odd jobs and a mandatory one week course.

@nonconsensualopinion

2 жыл бұрын

Back when a job would train a person. Now too many jobs want you to start with 10 years experience and they'd toss you to the curb the instant the stock price dips. It seems that employees had more pride in their work back then but it seems that may have been because the job respected the workers more.

@sebastianpohlman9906

2 жыл бұрын

@@nonconsensualopinion I dont know where you live, but every company here pays for any technical schooling if you're willing

@jupitercyclops6521

Жыл бұрын

@@sebastianpohlman9906 Where is "here"?

@rinzler9775

Ай бұрын

The most important thing you needed was a good attitude. It shows that all the degrees, qualifications and skills are useless without the right attitude.

Unbelivable. I am surprised, happy, and melancholy at the same time. My dad did this film when he first moved to MSFC.

I took 2M miniature and micro repair in the Navy. I also went to the NASA school as well in 1972. Years later, I instructed soldering classes for nuclear power plant techs. Most of this video is still up to date for component level soldering. Note that the amount of solder used per joint was very small in the video. Much later, it was determined that filets were not acceptable and rounds should be used in the solder joints. Also, 63/37 solder is used for electronics today as it doesn't have a semisolid state. Soldering irons today are temperature controlled. 60/40 solder is still used for power components such as transformers and high power semi-conductors.

@cme98

2 жыл бұрын

SN 96 is the only solder acceptable for aerospace applications. And i believe military as well.

@GoSlash27

2 жыл бұрын

@@cme98 63/37 is still permitted for grandfathered products, which is almost all military. We do use SN96 on our newest products and everyone hates it :D.

@WarpFactor999

2 жыл бұрын

@@cme98 You are of course correct! I had forgotten that NASA had shifted to the SN96 silver/tin lead-free, eutectic solder. Still eutectic, but no lead. Thanks for keeping me honest!

@david203

2 жыл бұрын

Eutectic solder is more expensive than 60/40, because the tolerances must be closer. Otherwise, it would have always been used.

@joewoodchuck3824

2 жыл бұрын

Lifelong professional and hobbyist electronics here, now retired. I didn't know about the semisolid state of 63/37 or why it's important, but I do know it's the lowest melting temperature solder alloy which can serve to protect components from excessive soldering heat.

I've been soldering for over 30 years [ not professionally ] and I learned a few things watching this video

@DembaraLemoon

2 жыл бұрын

They do make the mistake of claiming no one knows why. I think it was known even at the time that compositions often have lower melting point then their separate parent compounds. Eutectic alloys were understood for a while and the physical principles governing them have been a part of scientific literature since the 19th century.

@nobodynoone2500

2 жыл бұрын

@@DembaraLemoon you are correct, but it was a cop-out for moleculear metalurgy being far beyond the scope of the video. It's a service-level training video, not for engineers.

@joegee2815

2 жыл бұрын

Let me guess, cleanliness?

@DembaraLemoon

2 жыл бұрын

@@nobodynoone2500 yea, but a kind of pointless one. They could have just said "owing to the molecular properties..." rather than saying "owing to some quirk of the molecular properties which are not understood..." It does seem to prefer to give an attitude of "isn't that mysterious?" rather than just plainly giving the facts. But that us a very mild critique in what is otherwise a stellar instructional video.

@buggaboo2707

2 жыл бұрын

@@DembaraLemoon right!! It's a training video from 19 freaking 58.... That's amazing in its self

These soldering standards are still in force today in the aerospace industry. Everything is inspected and every aspect of a solder connection has rigorously defined criteria. I've been an avionics tech for 24 years, I'm qualified at the highest level, and I've been soldering since I was a little kid... but I'm not permitted to solder any production boards. We have certified professionals who do that. It sounds extravagant, but it's necessary when lives are on the line.

@zachattackbaby

2 жыл бұрын

Same here man. I'm in the Air Force and was a part of AFREP. We followed the NAVSEA 2M/MTR program which was built on the back of the content in this video. We still have extremely stringent standards for parts going on aircraft!

@GoSlash27

2 жыл бұрын

Minor correction to above: There are *some* cases where techs are permitted to solder. We can tombstone surface mount components for troubleshooting, solder tune microwave circuits, tack in test selects, and remove shorts. Once we're done, the assembly goes to a repair operator and inspector before being returned to us for further testing. We have to be certified yearly to be allowed to do this, which involves a class and hands- on exam. We are not sent to the yearly class unless our job specifically requires this type of soldering. I have been certified previously to do this, but my current job doesn't require it.

@elmariachi5133

2 жыл бұрын

But what should one use instead of an 'typewriter eraser' nowadays?

@GoSlash27

2 жыл бұрын

@@elmariachi5133 We use toluene to remove any postcoat or other contaminants and then isopropyl alcohol.

@justindunlap1235

2 жыл бұрын

@@elmariachi5133 i have used pentel hi polymer erasers.

for me, this was personal. My father actually worked as an engineer on the Gemini and Mercury missions at the cape and taught me those same techniques over 45 years ago ;-)

@brendangilmore4297

Жыл бұрын

I'm not even American, but I feel an immense amount of pride when watching anything to do with Rocket Launches - I think thousands of folks involved at at the time would watch those clips and think 'That's the result of MY work!"

When education was thorough enough for the student to understand not just how to do something, but the reason behind each step and why it matters.

@schmetterling4477

2 жыл бұрын

You simply haven't taken a modern class on these subjects. They are far more detailed, still. Your employer will simply not pay for that unless your company needs to you to do these things right.

@oo0Spyder0oo

Жыл бұрын

It still is thorough, but now society has filled the classroom with brat kids that have no respect for their elders and the law prevents from being given a smack for their disobedience, so the rest of the class misses out while the teacher wastes time on these losers.

I'm a 21 year old mechanic, I started soldering for fun and eventually brought my equipment to work. As soon as the higher ups saw that I could solder I started getting a considerable amount of electrical work. I'm getting better with every project, and this video will help me refine my technique. Thanks!

When I was at a Navy school at Ft. Meade in '74. our class finished a course early so our instructor sent us to a 2 day NASA soldering school. That course has served me well to this day.

@davidewhite69

2 жыл бұрын

our Airforce NASA soldering course took a week, we must be slower than the Navy lol

@Chris_at_Home

2 жыл бұрын

My dad had a NASA soldering school when he was working on the Apollo fuel cells. I learned how to solder in an electronics class in high school, then the Navy in Avionics starting in 1971. I retired from a very large communications company as a tech and even today there are things that need to be soldered. It isn’t just all board swap.

@MichaelKingsfordGray

2 жыл бұрын

No Navy guy is such a coward as to hide behind an anonymous name!

@edwardfletcher7790

2 жыл бұрын

Don't you hate how modern products are built to be disposable and impossible to repair ?

@edwardfletcher7790

2 жыл бұрын

@@MichaelKingsfordGray What are you talking about ?

I don't know what makes these old educational videos so fascinating but they are infinitely more interesting, detailed and fun to watch than their modern day counterparts. The soldering here makes what I thought some of the good KZreadrs look sloppy. Learned a lot watching this.

Thanks for posting the video. I have been soldering around the home workshop for more than 50 years. I, too, learned some valuable information from this video. My 1998 Subaru Legacy Outback suffered from a quality control problem arising from the switch to low-lead solders: Cold joints on the PC board that took the signal from the speed sensor and operated the speedometer needle and more critically the ignition control computer. No repair shop could fix the problem. After watching a YT video I was able to remove the PC board, re-flow the solder on the “dry” solder joints, and solved the problem completely. The money I saved doing the repair myself paid for the new Weller adjustable pin-point soldering iron. Hooray for KZread!.

@david203

2 жыл бұрын

Good job!

@zoomzabba452

2 жыл бұрын

This is normally only an issue with the 1999. Intriguing.

@charlesward8196

2 жыл бұрын

@@zoomzabba452 Maybe it was built late in year 1998 cycle. I used 50/50 solder, and actually installed a couple of “jumper wires on the back of the board as shown in one of the videos.

@cdx873v

2 жыл бұрын

KZread is amazing. You should check out Louis Rossman

@david203

2 жыл бұрын

@@cdx873v Just some feedback: I usually ignore brief replies like this one, as my time is just as valuable as yours.

ive soldered electronics for years - and nowhere have i seen so good a description of what happens chemically and the reasons for solder adhesion - ive got a clean bond from a habit of heat the copper base, wick the wire, and bridge it in with a drop of solder - but i never knew how the heating action caused oxides which prevent adhesion - so this was instructive - so important. people are soldering circiut boards for spaceX and just expect it to work - while sloppy soldering (and lack of basic knowledge in this film) - could bring down the whole space programme if those doing component-level work are incognizant. thx for posting!

@PeriscopeFilm

2 жыл бұрын

Glad you enjoyed it! Appreciate the comments. Subscribe and consider becoming a channel member kzread.info/dash/bejne/gXh2uZWphsTOhag.html

@schmetterling4477

2 жыл бұрын

That's because it is one thing to solder a few hobby and bench projects and a totally different thing to do mass manufacturing. There are tons of books and articles about the materials technology for that and endless rules.

@blessedheavyelements8544

2 жыл бұрын

I just started soldering. This was so cool and yeah, liked the oxidation info.

@Montgomerygolfgator

2 жыл бұрын

I am going to point out something that really upset me. We know why lead+tin melts at a lower temperature than lead or tin does on their own, they knew it then too. It's the same reason salt water freezes at a lower temperature than fresh water. I really wish they had just left it at "lead and tin mixed together at a lower temperature than they do apart" or "the reasons are technical, and unnecessary for understanding soldering" and didn't go down the "man doesn't know why this happens" route. You can find the technical explanation on Wikipedia (yes, I know they didn't have Wikipedia, but we do).

@schmetterling4477

2 жыл бұрын

@@Montgomerygolfgator The reason they took lead out is because lead in the food chain is toxic, kid. Maybe that came too late for you. ;-)

Soldering when done correctly is very satisfying.

I'm NASA certified. I had been soldering electronics circuitry for 10 years when I got certified. This was in the mid 1970's and there was more to learn, mostly about PCB material, voids and pinholes, and ensuring that it had a low humidity content in the material. I even learned about new PCB materials, flaxible bds, Teflon bds. The industry changed very rapidly. One thing I saw being done very wrong in the video that they failed to mention is a fundamental of the job, either holding or fully covering a lead as you cut off the excess. If a wire end is snipped off without being held it can fly across the room into another circuit and short something out. Myself, I had a new assembler across the isle clip a heavy resistor lead, and it flew across the isle and cut my ear. It could have put an eye out. I made sure they quickly learned the proper technique. When you're done clipping you should have a pile of lead clippings equal to the number of leads you clipped. Anything short of that means there is a length of conductor lost somewhere just waiting to short something out. I don't count both, but I don't need to. I do the job right.

This is fascinating. Love that Mac goes from screwing up everything to being an inspector. Truly inspiring.

@cuttheloop

2 жыл бұрын

That's typically how it works in govt. Screw up...move up.

@Uniblab9000

Жыл бұрын

Lesson learned: If you want it done right the first time, hire a ham radio operator.

I love these old training films. They do a great job of getting their message across without the need for glitz or computer eye candy.

@Uniblab9000

Жыл бұрын

Well said.

Shoutout to Mac for being willing to learn new things even after years of experience in a related field

My dad worked in electronics in the Army. He repaired Hawk missiles and radios, and was an instructor at Ft Gordon in the 1970s. What he did was always opaque to me, even when I was growing up. This video has given me a small insight into what he did at work every day. Thank you for that.

I first saw this movie when doing the "NASA high reliability soldering' course at RAAF Wagga in 1983.

@sixstringedthing

2 жыл бұрын

Nice profile pic, were you ever at Tindal or do you just like Maggies? :)

@davidewhite69

2 жыл бұрын

@@sixstringedthing I was at Tindal (75 SQN) from 88 to 91, and I love the mighty Pies!

I have taught soldering classes in informal settings a few times, and one thing I've discovered is that sometimes the people who "used to solder for a living" are sometimes completely hopeless at soldering. I think they only ever learned how to solder industrially prepared equipment, super clean, with high end soldering equipment in a clean environment. Give them a circuit board that they need to solder with an average $50 soldering station and they mess it up. The WORST are teenage boys, because they know everything. The BEST are little girls (like, 8 or 10 years old) or old ladies. They both are interested to learn and will listen to instruction.

Took the sac/ NASA soldering course as part of my year long radio/ radar tech school in the USAF in 64. Served me well later in Signal Corps (CW4) and as Motorola systems engr. The hundreds of pounds saved in a missle by correct soldering is amazing.

I have completed the high reliability soldering course and out of 16 students was the only one that passed it. It was the most frustrating training I ever done. with 10 years of building all kinds of circuit board projects nothing was good enough for the instructors. The entire class were depressed. One difference was for the installation of a resistor, the leads can't touch the side of the hole nor rest on the multilayer board. The solder lead must be also cleaned. Things are always changing but the principles are the same.

@WarpFactor999

2 жыл бұрын

Congrats! I tought high reliability soldering in the nuke power industry for 10 years. Had to be NASA and NRC certified. Out of 44 students that started at the same time, (12 max to a class), only 5 passed. I was one of the 5. The instructors said that was the typical pass rate. The joke is, when you know how to do it right, you make it look very simple and easy to do. But its very hard to learn the skill to that point.

@klopferator

2 жыл бұрын

"One difference was for the installation of a resistor, the leads can't touch the side of the hole" Oh? Why is that? What problems can this cause?

@daleburrell6273

2 жыл бұрын

@@klopferator ...I suspect that the combination of heat and stress on the resistor leads while they are being soldered, affects the resistor body: when parts are heated, they expand.

I never soldered anything but have welded for a living. It help me raise my kids and supported myself. Maybe one day I will learn to solder too.

@fitrianhidayat

2 жыл бұрын

is soldering and brazing the same thing?

@lwilton

2 жыл бұрын

@@fitrianhidayat Approximately. Brazing is generally done at a higher temperature than soldering, and usually using a flame torch for heat rather than contact transfer from a hot metal object (which is what a soldering iron is). Also, the melting temperature of the braze metal and base metal can be fairly close in some cases, making heat control a bit more difficult. If you melt the base metal you are welding, not brazing.

@0tt0z

2 жыл бұрын

Go for it!

@stargazer7644

2 жыл бұрын

Welding is far more complicated than soldering.

The "NASA high reliability soldering' came about because of the Apollo 1 fire that killed 3 Astronauts. It was believed that the fire was possibly started by poor electrical work. (Cause was never officially known) NASA then decided to create this training in order to help prevent another incident. I took this class back in 1979 or so as an "Electronics Mechanic WG-11" federal worker at McClellan AFB Calif. I will never forget that class!! I remember asking the instructor why he was being so damn hard? He said so my solder work on my worse day would be more than exceptional. He was right as I always did great soldering after that class.

@AndrewAHayes

2 жыл бұрын

Gus Grissom's son and wife apparently have evidence the CIA planted electronics to start the fire, I dont think we will ever know the "real" truth

@Miata822

2 жыл бұрын

This film was made nine years before the Apollo 1 fire.

@GoSlash27

2 жыл бұрын

@@Miata822 There's a lot of lore and apocrypha in technical fields. An instructor tells a story to a class to get their attention. Maybe that's the way he heard it, maybe he made it up, maybe that's the way it actually happened. In any case it gets accepted as history and repeated by the students when they become instructors. I have no idea how many of the stories I was told fall into which category, but the process is interesting.

@Miata822

2 жыл бұрын

@@GoSlash27 True. I taught technical classes for many years and spent much of that time "unteaching" wrong things the students, already skilled technicians themselves, thought they knew or understood. Every field has its own lore. It is entirely possible that NASA soldering changed after the Apollo fire, but this film is from 1957.

@GoSlash27

2 жыл бұрын

@@Miata822 Yeah. The way I understand it, NASA was on a kick in the late '50s about 'particulate contamination' and workmanship errors, but the real cause of their failures was ESD. Fascinating back story on that from the guy who invented the pink plastic bags, but like everything else I have no idea if it's actually fact or legend. :D

This video is a great start but you would definitely need that whole week of practicing to learn the basics. It’s more than knowledge it’s a skill that’s gained with time.

Soldering is not just joining two components in place , its an Art too . I've been Working For Professional Audio Industry For 20 years . Cable soldering is my Favorite and am never get tired of that .. definitely it takes Dedication and patience . 😎 This Video is an Inspiration and its makes me Proud , Thank you.. 😊

@sixstringedthing

2 жыл бұрын

I'm an ex audio-visual installation/service tech too, and I did a fair bit of live production work along the way. Now I repair laser/inket/direct-to-garment printers for a major manufacturer. Soldering in the audio production/hire/installation world is a cool art because there's a pretty big margin for error in terms of electrical characteristics - audio signals/circuits are quite bandwidth-limited and tolerant of less than perfect solder joints, unlike digital/RF gear - but it's still very important to make mechanically sound joints, as you would well know. Audio equipment and cables often receive some pretty rough handling during their lives and even the best designs of mechanical strain relief in plugs/sockets can sometimes fail. There's definitely satisfaction to be had in working with patience and precision, like when you finish soldering the last of 16 XLR plugs onto a high quality custom-length analog multicore breakout and all the tails end up exactly the same length, or wiring up a really tidy rack that's super easy to service later. :)

Nearly 65 years later, all of this is still applicable. I`ve been soldering since 1975 and found this video to be very informative.

I read somwhere that there were so many soldering joints in the Apollo vehicles that if each joint used 1/16 of an inch more solder that would equate the wieght of the payload.

@Lengsel7

2 жыл бұрын

That's pretty mind blowing.

@foxxy46213

2 жыл бұрын

Its surprising how the little things add up..I kno on my rc stuff I started using less glue..then lighter glue for a few grams same with paint. Thinner coats few grams less wire before you know it those 2 grams are now 10g an plane feels way better

@kleetus92

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah, think about most of the electronics being used... they could consolidate all the discrete components into a handful of ICs or FPGAs and put most of the electronics in a shoebox. It's not a knock on those guys back then, they were blazing a trail that today we look at as a super highway.

Back in 1979 I took an HRS (high reliability soldering course) sponsored by NASA taught at the School of Communication and Electronics. What was interesting was the statement of how much weight was shed by improving the soldering standards. No more big blobs of solder.

For years I would get very frustrated with my little pencil iron, the type that just plugs into the wall, I just couldn't solder very well at all.. Then I got a proper station with a separate power supply and variable temp control. That made a huge difference. It might be obvious to those with experience but I had no one to teach me. Now I'm glad to solder something. This video really educated me about flux.

I was once NASA Solder Certified when I worked at NASA Dryden, Edwards A.F. Base, CA. It was a really hard course.

Oh periscope you know just what I like.

I built a Knight oscilloscope kit when I was in the 6th grade, growing up in Philadlephia, PA. I enjoyed SW listening and amateur radio operation as a child. My career was software engineering.

@TractorMonkeywithJL

2 жыл бұрын

I remember the Knight kits from the Lafayette and Allied electronic catalogs, but I can't remember if I ever bought one of their kits. I did build dozens of items from Heathkit in the 70's. Everything from test equipment to a TV set which was my biggest project.

I’ve been soldering since I was 6, taught by my EE father. Now I do SMD/Micro-Soldering Professionally. I actually learned something here.

I'm a student in college studying metallurgy. I'm taking a metals manufacturing course, and we discuss a lot about brazing and soldering. I thought that this video had a really really excellent and concise explanation of the mechanism of soldering, really helpful.

As a sonar technician in the Navy, in the advanced electronics field…I was sent to schools for both basic soldering and 2M (miniature/micro miniature repair). Since it is very hard at times, underway, to get parts…there had to be 2M qualified techs aboard. One of the best schools I had at that time. Came in handy when I switched to the Army and my future civilian job after retirement from the Army. Love soldering inside chips with a microscope as the tip looks like a pencil. Great video! 🤘🤘🤘

@Chris_at_Home

2 жыл бұрын

Did you go to Sonar school in Key West? My oldest brother taught there while on shore duty around 1970.

There's something to be said about material made many years ago that had great drawings, exploded views, diagrams, and such. It's a great way to 'see' what's being discussed. Great stuff. Thank you for these videos. :)

These videos give me nostalgia for a decade I wasn’t even alive in.

Its great to see this, these are the exact techniques I was taught for soldering, repairing, & developing sensitive surgical equipment. Really cool that it started with the aerospace industry.

Man, our soldering technology has come a long way since this. Pre tinned or silver/gold plated PCBs keep everything clean and ready to accept solder. Good irons are now thermally controlled to maintain a constant tip temperature. Lead free solder joints look different than leaded, so inspection criteria has changed. Great blast from the past.

@ianmontgomery7534

2 жыл бұрын

I am surprised that there were no static straps in use - sure they were soldering passives but it is good practice to use straps all of the time.

@schmetterling4477

2 жыл бұрын

@@ianmontgomery7534 These folks didn't have CMOS circuits, yet. Whatever they are soldering here is not sensitive to electrostatic discharge.

@jeffymooch

2 жыл бұрын

Technology has sure improved, but the lessons in ensuring clean contacts is still valid, especially when doing PCB repair work where the vias have been acid damaged from electrolytic failures or battery discharge. knowing this information can only serve to help noobs like myself who treated solder as a "metal glue" when they were kids.

@schmetterling4477

2 жыл бұрын

@@jeffymooch If you have an acid damaged PCB, then you simply replace the PCB. If you have electrolytic capacitors failing on you, then somebody didn't pick the right electrolytic capacitors to begin with. Electrolytic capacitors don't fail. Electronics design engineers who don't know how to calculate the expected design life of electrolytic capacitors do.

@jeffymooch

2 жыл бұрын

@@schmetterling4477 that’s not always possible when dealing with old electronics that are no longer in manufacture.

Excellent film, been soldering electronic stuff since 1960 and repairing surface mount gear to component level for decades, cleanliness and attention to detail are key factors, sometimes just making one joint can involve lots of operations and take more time to set up than actually apply solder.

I never realized the copper fuses with the solder into a transition! I always thought it was simply a tight surface wrap. Wow! Thank you very much for this. I also can't get over the lower headline @22:08 -- "First Lady Juror In Area Is Called", complete with photo.

@PeriscopeFilm

7 ай бұрын

Thanks for the comment and for being a subscriber!! We appreciate you. Want to take a deep dive with us, visit Patreon.com/PeriscopeFilm

This series and the automotive series from General Motors made around the same time, are some of the best and clearest explanations for how things work that I have ever seen. The GM series explains, for example, how differentials work in a very simple and easily understood way. You can find quite a few of them here on KZread.

I've been soldering since I was a kid which is more years than I care to think about. My dad was a ham radio guy and I got my license when I was 15. I taught my 2 boys the skill as well, they picked it up quickly as they built those little kids you could buy to solder together. It's great skill to have but probably not a profession anymore as we outsource most such work to China.

Am I the only one who’s dying to see this riffed by Mike, Bill and Kevin?

Great video, and another one is showing how to wrap and secure wire bundles back in the day before tie wraps and all the newer plastic devices. That was an art as well. Sometimes you come across an old radio or electronic device and they did the wire wrapping per military spec, it's a beautiful thing.

I worked for an instrument company in so cal back in the early 90s. Much of the standards shown here were implemented in the production room by people who worked there long term Then somebody decided to contract off cable harness. Well it didnt work out. We ended up doing everything back in production.

When I worked at a repair depot, we had to recertify our solder skills every so often. The instructors jokingly accused me of using NASA techniques when I use just enough solder to pass "minimum" requirements.

@Turboy65

2 жыл бұрын

I had a similar thing happen to me. I went to work in the engineering department of an avionics company and started building test fixture boards. I handed in the first one for inspection and my supervisors says "You don't have to work to class 3 standards. What we make in this department will never fly." My reply was "I only know how to do the job right. My technique is built around perfect component placement and soldering. If you ask me to degrade my workmanship it'll take longer and be harder for me." Later my supervisor told me that my SMD soldering was as good as anybody in production was doing.

@patmcbride9853

2 жыл бұрын

@@Turboy65 SMD was much more satisfying than through hole.

@dant.3505

2 жыл бұрын

For high voltage application the minimum solder is not good. In this case the solder is applied until a smooth ball is formed. This prevents corona discharge when voltage exceeds 2500 volts or more

@patmcbride9853

2 жыл бұрын

@@dant.3505 Yes, we had a ball soldering course available for that. But I never dealt with high voltage circuits like the guys that worked on Radar HV power supplies and switching gear.

@daleburrell6273

2 жыл бұрын

@@dant.3505 ...that's true.

It is because of videos like this, that even at the age of 40 now, I continue to work on improving my soldering skills. I love these old videos! Thank you for preserving these!

Inspirational. Hard work, paying attention to detail, and being disciplined to follow through with your job properly.

Excelente video, me recuerda a mi abuelo que era técnico en radio y televisión.

I just love these old training films, so much to learn.

I took a class at the USMC Basic electronic school. Was taught soldering per NASA specs. This video was great.

Ah back in the good old days with real 60/40 solder and breathing all those fumes!

@gregdolecki8530

2 жыл бұрын

yep - no safety glasses either...ah the good old days.........

@StreamMan247

4 ай бұрын

The lead boiling point is 3,180°F and tin boiling point is 4,716°F, just because something is liquid does not mean it is boiling, does water boil at room temperatures? no. So there are no fumes coming from the lead or tin at all, the fumes you see is from the flux only which is no worse than second hand smoke exposure.

Great video! The basics of soldering haven't changed since then and there interesting points to be gleaned from this video but what has changed since then has been drastic. Those circuit boards are only capable of 'mapping' a handful of functions whereas today, a circuit board of that size is enough space for the electronics of a computer.

@martinusher1

2 жыл бұрын

The production of circuit boards is largely automated -- solder paste is screen printed onto the boards, a pick and place machine adds the components and the line then moves the boards through a multizone soldering machine. (Some manual work is still required which is where these techniques are important.) Parts have got even smaller recently, individual components are like grains of pepper and a part like a processor may have 400 or more conenctions through an array of tightly spaced solder pads on the board side. (No hand magnifier to inspect that -- you need X-rays.) Its a modern form of magic.

@nobodynoone2500

2 жыл бұрын

@@martinusher1 Depends on the industry and product. Many things still use thru-hole which are a pain to pick-n-place.

Your channel is a historical treasure.

11:47 "A basketball player could walk under there with a high hat on". Love it!

At 16:23, "[the heated wire strippers] even work well for stripping Teflon wire, in a well ventilated room". Apparently the military knew about the toxic nature of overheated Teflon long before the rest of us, who had been using Teflon coated kitchen pans, were informed about the dangers. It appears he was stripping stranded Teflon wire in that portion of the video but I didn't see anything in this video about how to twist the strands of the wire together before soldering them. If they're so concerned about Getting finger oils and salts and contaminants on component leads and solid wire from handling them with your fingers prior to soldering, then the same should apply to stranded wire, but in normal everyday electronics work, everybody just twists the strands together with their bare fingers!

@ke6gwf

2 жыл бұрын

They actually showed him only partially stripping the insulation, taking the strippers off, and then twisting the strands using the section of insulation as a handle. And if you use a Teflon pan properly it never gets hot enough to burn the Teflon.

@goodun2974

2 жыл бұрын

@@ke6gwf , I missed that part --- old eyes, and insufficient coffee in the early morning! I've never actually used heated strippers (that sounds a bit risque!). We do have 24 guage Teflon at work, silver plated solid wire, very nice for jumpering burned, broken or corroded foils, or cracked PC boards, but a bit of a pain to strip short jumpers because the insulation tends to slide when you pull on the strippers. The type of complex strippers that clamp the wire down with a bar before the cutters slice into and pull on the cable jacket, those work pretty well.......

@david203

2 жыл бұрын

@@ke6gwf Good reply.

@RRKS_TF

2 жыл бұрын

You could use needle nose pliers to twist the strands

@david203

2 жыл бұрын

@@RRKS_TF For thin strands, fingers work better. Pliers make the strands stick out instead of becoming smoothed down. You could simply wipe the bare wire with alcohol or ammonia solution to clean off the skin oil for perfect joints.

As a person who made a living off of 8739.3, I found this enjoyable :)

I love periscope films.

@PeriscopeFilm

Жыл бұрын

Thanks, and thanks for being a sub. Want to support our efforts even more? Consider joining us on Patreon at www.Patreon.com/PeriscopeFilm

Brings back memories of training at the neighboring base, Redstone Arsenal in 1966. Our field was Army missiles. From here I went to Sandia Base, New Mexico where we learned the nuclear side of the business. Warheads. The only job I've ever had where you never really knew if your product worked or not. Good thing.

A probably bad soldered Abort switch (in the Lunar Module) brought the moon descent of Apollo 14 nearly to failure. Only a hastily programmed software modification in the Apollo Guidance Computer could save the mission.

Once you learn how to solder real good you are promoted to inspector, and so on up the line until you get to a job where you don't know what you are doing well enough to be promoted. This is the way that the government ensures none of their employees know what they are doing.

@jacksons1010

2 жыл бұрын

That syndrome is not unique to government. Every large organization has this problem…”The Peter Principle”.

@GoSlash27

2 жыл бұрын

It's a funny concept, but not actually true. Definitely true for management, but they're just as likely to "fail upward" as they are to get promoted on merit. The promotion process for assemblers (the only people permitted to solder) is assembler/ inspector/ repair/ lead. It stops there unless you want to go into another field. Same for techs; it's technician/ senior technician/ and finally lead technician. None of us perform any management functions and nobody in management is permitted to touch the product, so promotion beyond lead requires leaving your profession and entering a different one.

air force 304x5 here. i took that class twice at nasa ames research, in 1981. 30 connections in 5 days. i was at the cube . sunnyvale at the time.

i learned a lot about soldering properly but more so that people in past were just like us.

Got a holder for the soldering iron..Laying it on the table like that.. It will end up in your lap...

@Vaasref

2 жыл бұрын

Just look at 2:14

I love that there is absolutely no mention of not inhaling the fumes

@lwilton

2 жыл бұрын

If you do it right in a proper soldering station you don't get fumes in your face. Besides, in those days, most people were smart enough to not inhale rosin particles if they could avoid it. They didn't need to be told that.

@laius6047

2 жыл бұрын

My thought exactly. And they haven't even mentioned where the safe spaces are, also I never heard the list of pronouns, and I missed the part where they mentioned if the solder and flux is vegan.

@johncoops6897

2 жыл бұрын

The fumes from Rosin aren't dangerous, however they are an irritant to some people. Easy enough to avoid them, if they bother you.

@goodun2974

2 жыл бұрын

@@johncoops6897 , The fluxes used with lead free solder are comprised of organic acids and they are extremely unpleasant to breathe. I find them far more irritating than ordinary rosin flux. Although it's pretty much a moot point because I never use lead free solder anyway, For plumbing work yes but definitely not for electronics. Not to mention that the flex is designed specifically for lead free solder Are corrosive and conductive and great pains have to be taken to remove the flux from the circuit boards. Even then, lead free solder doesn't flow and wet to the circuit board and component leads as well as lead solder does; and lead free solder degrades at temperature extremes, including extreme cold as well as heat. Connections made with lead free solder never last as long, and millions of devices fail prematurely and end up in landfills because of the use of lead free solder.

@johncoops6897

2 жыл бұрын

@@goodun2974 - nobody in 1958 used Lead-Free soldsr.

I resent this so much, because I actually interviewed for a similar kind of job at NASA, with a resume just as good as these guys, except in 2011. You old timers watching this for nostalgia, take note: compared to us, you had your whole life handed to you.

@StreamMan247

4 ай бұрын

perhaps it was your attitude that attributed to your failed NASA acceptance

Learned how to solder in 9th grade electronics class. This video taught me some new stuff.

Solder. One of those words that sounds nothing like it's spelled.

@lwilton

2 жыл бұрын

It does if you are in England. Really. They pronounce it sol-der.

@GoSlash27

2 жыл бұрын

We have a bunch of technicians who went to school in Paducah, KY; one of the few tech schools that actually teach to avionics industry standards. They pronounce the 'L' with a heavy southern drawl.

@krashd

2 жыл бұрын

I've only heard Americans omit the L for some reason.

Almost nothing has changed since 1958, we now understand why alloys can melt at a lower temperature than the base metals, and we have lead-free solder as an option now (which I hate) but otherwise most of the information still applies

@sixstringedthing

2 жыл бұрын

It's almost like chemistry and metallurgy follow fixed and unchanging physical laws which continue to apply regardless of how much time passes. :) Lead-free is only optional for hobbyists these days btw, due to ROHS legislation it's basically mandatory in production environments if you want to sell your products worldwide. It's really not so difficult to get to grips with, once you understand the differences between leaded and lead-free soldering techniques. Everything just needs to be a bit more precise. Leaded rosin-cored 60/40 solder is like playing Electronics on Easy Mode, it gives you auto-aim and greatly increases the chance of critical hit regardless of which weapon you're using. Lead-free requires you to set up your engagements more carefully. Many lead-free solders aren't rosin-cored, so the PCB pads and component legs must be cleaned of any grease/oil or other contaminants, you'll need to use a flux gel or pen to manually apply flux to the joint before heating, and ideally you'd want to use a temperature-controlled soldering station that's designed for lead-free work. If you have those things and practice your technique a bit, you will consistently make good lead-free solder joints. Lead-free rework absolutely sucks though, avoid that shit at all costs.

@StreamMan247

4 ай бұрын

@@sixstringedthing lead free solder requires way more heat and the PCB boards that are ROHS certified are way more brittle so in manufacturing you get a good helping of fiberglass floating around from its frayed ends, which is way more likely to kill you from exposure, lead is only really dangerous to health when its coming out of a barrel very fast. ROHS is about the most stupid thing the EU has ever done. They cant act like it harms the environment cause lead is everywhere, its pulled from the damn environment.

Thanks, i'm head technician and teach soldering and i still learned a new trick thanks to this video.

I learned the Bell System way of soldering. First heat the connection then apply soldier to the tip of the iron..

Is that a Simpson 260 embedded in the bench? Good way not to lose or break it.

@21stcenturyfossil7

2 жыл бұрын

Yes, it is.

@Chris_at_Home

2 жыл бұрын

I still have one of those 260s laying around. It even has the mirror to reduce parallax error. I never use it and it just takes up space.

@GoSlash27

2 жыл бұрын

My best friend died and his widow gave me his most prized possession; an old Simpson 260 that belonged to his father. I restored it and returned it to full working order and presented it to his mom as a family heirloom.

@goodun2974

2 жыл бұрын

@@Chris_at_Home I work for an audio repair shop and we still use Triplett and Simpson analog meters in the shop for certain tasks. They're handy for doing quick checks of transistors and diodes for shorts versus proper junction resistance , and also for differentiating between a shorted AC power circuit versus a short in the actual transformer, because the analog meter will show an inductive kick from the transformer winding (the meter hesitates for a fraction of a second before picking up speed as it heads towards the low resistance end of the scale ).

@goodun2974

2 жыл бұрын

Another use for analog meters: testing flashlight batteries. High impedance digital meters will fool you into thinking a battery is good because the meter doesn't load down the battery at all. An analog meter with a typical 1k ohms per volt load will be give you a much better idea whether the battery has any life left or not.

I had a job where we used high temperature solder, what a pain that is.

Just what I needed. I never learned to solder. Been watching tutorials for day's and found yours. I'm 67, journeyman brazing/mig/tig/gas/arc cast iron and many exotics. I can weld a fart to a moonbeam. Disabled and haven't melted anything for 15yrs. I've bought the equipment and been soldering now for three day's, feel like a kid again. Haven't made anything, just practicing wire joints preparing for some back burner projects that really should be soldered. Having fun.

'The future meets my hangover'... Thank you for posting.

It's not rocket science , unless it's soldered for a rocket

@Ea-Nasir_Copper_Co

2 жыл бұрын

It’s not rocket science, it’s rocket technology

@david203

2 жыл бұрын

The main rocket science is the Rocket Equation. See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsiolkovsky_rocket_equation . This was technology.

so you're telling me you could have been a TV wielder back in the day and nasal would still hire you without a masters degree??? Where did our country fail

@GoSlash27

2 жыл бұрын

We still do it the same way today. I came into the industry with my education consisting of military training and ARRL handbooks. My son starts next month with an education of ARRL handbooks and "what his old man taught him". Neither of us have been to college. Assemblers need no background or experience whatsoever, they only need to pass soldering school. The catch is that you have to be exceptionally good to get in and insanely good to progress to higher job codes.

@goodun2974

2 жыл бұрын

Spurdo: a " TV wielder"? And "nasal" would still hire you? Apparently our country failed *you* when it came to teaching you to spell and to proofread what you have written. Or equally likely, you failed to pay attention.

@almostfm

2 жыл бұрын

I don't think it requires a master's now to be a welder for NASA, but I take your point. I remember seeing an interview with one of the Apollo-era flight controllers (the guys you saw in Mission Control during the flights). He was asked what education he'd had before he got hired to be a flight controller, and he mentioned he got hired right after he got his B.S. in whatever STEM field he'd studied. The person asking the question seemed shocked that he hadn't had an advanced degree. The flight controller laughed and said, "When they hired us, there _weren't_ advanced degrees in what we were doing." If you had some sort of basic educational minimum, they really wanted to know what you could _do_. That's why the spacesuits were sewn by the master seamstresses at ILC (the company that made Playtex bras and girdles) and the techs at North American Aviation were taught how to properly bond insulation to the bulkheads on the second stage tanks by guys who built custom surfboards, since they were doing much the same thing in their "normal" job. Fortunately, NAA was based in Seal Beach, CA, which is a surfing hotspot. I really wish we could go back to the days when you got hired based on your work. I've gotten turned down for jobs where I had 10+ years doing exactly what they were looking for, but I hadn't taken some class that the HR droids decided was necessary.

This is better than the NASA Soldering training I received.

Thank you for sharing this.

Love how 'soLder' is simply 'sodder' when it's American!

@rjlchristie

2 жыл бұрын

I hate it, it drives me up the wall when watching programmes on electronic material. Yanks can pronounce soldier but can't say solder.

@GoSlash27

2 жыл бұрын

@@rjlchristie Oh, we *can* say 'soLder', we simply don't... just like we don't say 'al-you-MINNIE-um'. Minor annoyance at best, especially when compared to watching a video from someone who doesn't speak english as their native language.

@goodun2974

2 жыл бұрын

@@rjlchristie How do you pronounce the word subtle? Sub-tul, or suttle? I can come up with dozens of more words that have silent letters which aren't pronounced anywhere in the UK or Australia, nor perhaps in the US. Anyway, I have been *soddering* for over 50 years of my life. Deal with it!

@topspeed250k5

2 жыл бұрын

No one disagrees that English spelling & pronunciation is complex. It's just weird that Americans changed the spelling of some words to match the pronunciation (colour/color), with other words changed the spelling AND pronunciation (aluminium/aluminum), and with yet others, changed the pronunciation so that it doesn't match the spelling (solder/"sodder") which is strange and regressive, and there doesn't seem to be any logical reason for it, just the desire to be different which is entrenched in American psyche.

@GoSlash27

2 жыл бұрын

@@topspeed250k5 Point in fact, the guy who first discovered and isolated aluminum named it that. It was the British who added the unnecessary syllable and mangled the pronunciation. So that sort of thing goes both ways. No worries from our end; British accents are kinda endearing if a bit fussy.

We were probably charged, 200 million for this film……

This video is a real gem. Thanks for posting!

@PeriscopeFilm

2 жыл бұрын

Glad you liked it! Love our channel? Help us save and post more orphaned films! Support us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/PeriscopeFilm Subscribe and consider becoming a channel member kzread.info/dash/bejne/gXh2uZWphsTOhag.html

Responsibility, Respect for the materials and Proudness of the work. Good technique forms good habits. Reliability through dedication and constant quality control. So many life lessons here. No matter if you're soldering space vehicles or tightening a brake pad on a car, or preparing food. It applies to every aspect of life.

Two "deliberate errors" appear in this film: 1 - No protective eye wear used at any time 2 - A complete inability to correctly pronounce the word "solder"

@schmetterling4477

2 жыл бұрын

Protective eyewear for soldering? Dude... you had too much LSD in the 1960s.

@matneu27

2 жыл бұрын

Nowadays solder workbenches must have an ventilation which prevents the worker from breathing the fumes.

@occamsrayzor

2 жыл бұрын

@@matneu27 Yeah, I worked as a field telecommunications tech for more than twenty years, and did a lot of jointing of paper cored and lead covered cables - lots of lead plumbing joints with a blowtorch and breathing in the fumes. I'm surprised I'm not more brain damaged 😆

@stargazer7644

2 жыл бұрын

There’s nothing better than the smell of solder in the morning. As for the pronunciation, Brits often have trouble with English. Perhaps a Frenchman could help you with the pronunciation?

@rfmerrill

2 жыл бұрын

In case anyone is curious, I found a few sources saying that lead vapor starts being produced at around 450 Celsius, which is higher than you should ever need to be when working with lead solder. Flux fumes aren't great though. And while it's rare, solder joints do occasionally "spit" - I had a blob of molten solder hit me in the face less than an inch from my eye. Now I wear glasses but I'd definitely be wearing safety goggles if I didn't.

Hilarious to hear the Americans have been mispronouncing it for at least 64 years.

@goodun2974

2 жыл бұрын

Let's hear you pronounce the word subtle. Do you pronounce the letter B , or is it silent? Suttle, or sub- tul?

@johncoops6897

2 жыл бұрын

@@goodun2974 - So the L is not silent in Folder, Bolder or Colder, correct? BTW: Subtle has been spelt with the silent B since to 1400's.

@goodun2974

2 жыл бұрын

@@johncoops6897 , words with a silent L include talk, walk, caulk, chalk, half, calf, yolk, folk, would, could, should, and, for most people's pronunciation, salmon. Also *colonel*, pronounced "kernel". But then again, you guys pronounce lieutenant as "lef-tenant" 😁!

@johncoops6897

2 жыл бұрын

@@goodun2974 - Thousands of words have silent letters, commonly due to their language origins. Often the silent letter acts like a sound modifier for the surrounding letters. For example, the L isn't _really_ silent in Talk, since it's "Tawk" (tɔːk) and not "TAkk" (with the L omitted). There needs to be something in there to define how the A is spoken. Talk probably should be spelt "Tawk" or even "Tork", although some Americans pronounce it "TOK" (rhyming with "Clock"). Many (most?) of your other examples only have "silent L" in American pronunciation - I suppose we just have to treat these as differences in dialect. At least they are consistently different. However "Solder" is always an amusing one because many Americans pronounce just that ONE word differently from all the other words that have "OLD" in them. BTW: I am not British, so I would never pronounce lieutenant as "lef-tenant" 😁

@topspeed250k5

2 жыл бұрын

@@goodun2974 Irrelevant. No one changed the pronunciation to make the 'b' silent, at least within the last several centuries. But why change the pronunciation of a perfectly ok word, whose pronunciation matches the spelling? All those confusing pronunciation/spelling mismatches were handed down to us from the past. Americans went some way towards simplifying things (colour/color, litre/liter) but then stuff things up by silencing a random 'l'. You can quote all the examples of silent letters that you like, but they are from the ancient past. Making a new one is simply just being eccentric and Yanks will just have to suck it up that the rest of the world smiles tolerantly and has a chuckle at their expense.

The two typewriter erasers between a staple puller is a great idea. Also the hot melt wire stripper. Pity they don't sell them. I guess I'll have to make my own.

I learned to solder as an apprentice with British Aerospace back in 1980 - and pretty much everything was the same as in this video. Great to watch, cheers!

I love these old films from when America was America, before it's Democrat enemies demonized it and turned it into a third world hell hole.

@david203

2 жыл бұрын

Democrats and Republicans are certainly different, but they both are equally good at destroying a working society. The underlying problem is a spiritual one, not a political one.

Back when you could get a good job without a degree and promotion was based purely on merit instead of race and gender identity. With that job you could afford a simple life. Now we have cry closets, bathroom labels are hurtful and your education must be in a useless subject relative to the work performed.

@21stcenturyfossil7

2 жыл бұрын

I notice these two white guys required ALOT of hand-holding from the instructor. Meanwhile, one of the female applicants is noticeably picking up the skills quietly and, presumably, competently.

@juicyfruit6311

2 жыл бұрын

@@21stcenturyfossil7 Well, yeah. When I worked with in wire harness manufacturing, it was staffed mostly by women. Delicate touch. Precise. Better coordination. Nothing news breaking. Male engineers came up with the designs on paper. But, it's the women who brought the design to life.

@21stcenturyfossil7

2 жыл бұрын

@@juicyfruit6311 Yes, my Mom did that ages ago. I don't know if she wanted to be an inspector but I don't doubt the Boy's Club in charge would rather promote up some fumble fingered boy who has the non-hormonal personality for the job.

@kq2799

2 жыл бұрын

Sounds like you have all the excuses and outrage lined up for failing in life...

@GoSlash27

2 жыл бұрын

This option is still available today if you're willing to apply yourself. The aerospace industry is full of good paying union jobs that don't require college degrees. If you have the attention to detail and coordination, they will hire you off the street and train you to to become an assembler just like in this video. If you can pass the exam (which is difficult and college will not teach you), you can become an avionics technician. I've been doing this for 24 years and earn $48 an hour. My son just got hired as a tech and will start entry level at $26 per hour, to be prorated to bigger bucks once he's cleared his probationary period. Neither of us went to college.

I was a space flight wiring harness and ground station assembler at RCA-Astro Electronics in early 80's. NASA soldering was the standard. It may have been my favorite job, despite the relatively low pay.

@sixstringedthing

2 жыл бұрын

That's cool, I would have been happy to do that kind of work for a cup of coffee and a free lunch. Okay, bullshit, but I can understand why you stayed despite low pay. :) Such a shame that the RCA brand name is just a traded commodity owned by some conglomerate/holding company these days, they did such important work across so many fields in their heyday. But I'm sure that most people who get into audio electronics these days have no clue why they're called "RCA jacks" and never bother to ask, and seeing the RCA name on so many cheap made-in-China fridges/freezers/airconditioners is pretty sad. You're lucky to have worked there while the company was still involved in advanced R&D, aerospace, emerging digital technologies, etc.

This is great... Thanks for all the videos

Absolutely fantastic -outstanding! Thank you so much for posting this excellent soldering tutorial film.

Great video; the info/techniques are still relevant today.

I remember watching this in tech school. Lackland AFB, 1978.

If only the job application process was so simple today...