Did you check the flatness of the cinder block before starting? Mark S mentioned the 3 Stone Method. I used that method to flatten the sandstone brick that serves as my flattening surface. Based on you mentioning the "green stuff", I'm guessing you didn't. Going out on a limb I'm betting the surface of the block is concave. When you started rubbing, the waterstone immediately began to wear down on the ends. My guess is that you sharpen about the same as the rest of us. When I sharpen I put more wear on the center of the stone. I rotate the stones to use both ends equally. The edges of the stone along sides don't wear as fast. Even a #8 Stanley blade doesn't cover the full width of the stone. That generally works out to having each side hit every other pass. When I flatten my stones they clean up on the ends and edges along the sides of the stone first. It looked like you flattened the stones on the ends first and didn't get to the edges along the sides at the center of the long surface until you had flattened all the way to the center of the long surface. That's what makes me think the waterstone was riding on the cupped surface of the cinder block. A couple guys mentioned uneven pressure rocking the stone. That is possible. The reason I dont think that was happening is two fold. 1. You flattened on the diamond stone just fine. That means your technique is good. 2. If the cinderblock was flat and you were rocking the waterstone the center would have had the marks wiped off faster. The rocking would have scrubbed the center on every pass. I would be very interested to see you check the cinder block.

@TylrVncnt

Жыл бұрын

Wouldn’t rocking wear the edges faster?

@TylrVncnt

Жыл бұрын

Unless the surface of the lapping “block” is convex, then the water stone would rock due to convexity of it against the block and in that case the center of the water stone would wear first, but that’s also assuming the water stone was already relatively flat

Great video and information... the cinder block got it flat enough for me... I don’t think I’ll lose sleep over a .005 dip in a stone to sharpen a knife with freehand motion.. but that cinder block information is all I need, I worked

Great test Josh! Thanks for sharing....I do wonder what a brand new CMU would do on the same teat, but still think this is pretty remarkable considering its been left in the woods for a while. Interested to see how those irons sharpen up.

VIDEO REQUEST: Please compare new cinder block and ceramic fire stove brick.

That's interesting to know. I will probably try it out with a new block. I also have a flat slab of granite I think I will put some wet/dry sandpaper on when I need to flatten my stone. I think there are probably a lot of other options besides a $200 diamond flattening plate (even if the plate is superbly precise).

Interesting test....Thanks for Sharing...

Sir your work is very good I am impressed

Thank you Joshua. I was skeptical of the results but your method seemed ok. I guess the only suggestion if u wanted to give the block another chance is to give the stone more time on the block. Maybe u quit before it was truly flat. I wonder if a large piece of granite w sandpaper would give u better results as an alternative to the diamond.

Very good! Long time no see Joshua! Thanks.

Thanks so much Josh

Thanks for the test. I am always looking for alternatives to the more expensive accepted methods. I personally use a square of marble I got from a custom counter top shop for $12. I wet the surface and put a 120 grit sheet of sand paper on it and use that to flatten my Japanese water stones. I find it works as well as the diamond plate. I have used several methods to measure the flatness and all have confirmed a good result. I will say thanks for your honesty. Most videos only show apparent successes. Yours showed what doesn't work quite as well. Good to know. Again, thanks and a thumbs up.

@WoodAndShop

4 жыл бұрын

Glad to be of help!

@Simon-oy7kf

3 жыл бұрын

Marble countertop are indeed known to be very close to completely flat, it's a good choice, as long as you're using waterproof sandpaper

Thank you

The Cinder Block probably needs flattening, too, before first use. In my opinion, flatness within 3 thousands is quite good for that "tool". Jokingly, i would say, you need 1 more cinder block and use the three surface method to get the faces of these blocks flat.

Good video can you make a video about the Stanley 55 plane how do use it

That was very interesting. I actually was surprised it took longer. I would have taken it just one step further and flattened the cement block side with the lapping plate to completely verify. Nice job!

I agree that Japanese waterstones are the best available. I use Naniwas, they are splash and gos (which just means they don't require soaking). I find they're fast cutting and don't dish easily. I use them to sharpen knives so being perfectly flat isn't usually as important to me as it would be for you wood working guys. However there are a few single bevel Japanese knives that require a perfectly flat stones and honestly I haven't found a better way to flatten stones than the diamond plates. Wet/dry sandpaper on a flat surface can work in a pinch if you take your time, that method tends to round the edges a bit but I haven't found that to be a problem. Quick tip for anyone who doesn't have a feeler gauge, if you place a flat edge on the stone and shine a bright light from the other side you can see if it's flat or not depending on whether any light passes underneath. Great video. These practical tests are the only way to find out what really works.

@_wormlet

2 жыл бұрын

What is the best/cheapest way to flatten a Shapton Glass 1K?

The more you move it back and forth, the more you risk rocking it and dipping it too far on the sides.

Besides the heavy expensive diamond plates there's also an aluminum block with a diamond stick on layer that is replaceable. I use the expensive one for aggressive sharpening (300/1000) and the aluminum one for flattening. When it's become too dull you just replace the diamond layer.

I use a rectangle of glass and a sheet of silicon carbide paper for flattening my water-stones.

@WoodAndShop

4 жыл бұрын

That works too!

Interesting experiment and well-done as are all your videos and information. I wonder how the makers in the 1700's and earlier kept their tools sharp. I imagine cinder blocks and diamond plates were not around then. And then, the technology of getting whatever was used in sharpening flat and keeping it flat would be another matter. Perhaps hand powered grinding stones were the order of the day?

Your video is spot on. I have read that one could use a concrete floor to do what you are trying to show. The brick that you are using is of ? flat.

Just caught video and see the cases for your stones. Where can one purchase these? Enjoy your videos.

Nothing beats diamonds. Man made diamonds are one of the reasons why I love the 21st century. But I have used the three plate method with three bricks in a pinch. Great video thanks!

@_wormlet

2 жыл бұрын

Will a diamond lapping plate hold up for a long time if it is used exclusively for lapping stones? I don't want to have to shell out again and again. I have a Shapton Glass 1K

@TennisCoachChip

2 жыл бұрын

@@_wormlet I don’t know. I use diamond stones & a leather strop to sharpen my knives and chisels. I don’t use them to flatten other stones.

@TennisCoachChip

2 жыл бұрын

But if I had water stones, I would give the 3 plate method with 3 bricks a try.

Do think if you had a plate made of the same stuff a CBN wheel is made from it might work as good as a diamond plate? The CBN wheel is for grinding lathe turning tools.

@knickly

4 жыл бұрын

Yeah, but CBN abrasives are as expensive if not more than diamond right now. They're made in the same equipment, but CBN is more niche.

Please give your best advice for Japanese sharpening stones that can be used for chisels and plane irons.

Üstadım taşların da muhtesem mükemmel görünüyor çok güzel olmuş eline sağlık üstadım tebrikler

I'm wonderong if one of those granite surface blocks from say woodcraft with sabd paper would be a good alternative to diamond stone. I have a granite surface I paid about 50 dollars for thats supposed to be flat. I'm just debating if I even need a diamond stone. Ive sharpened chisels and plane irons on that surface with a max of 800 grit wet/dry sand paper. My chisels seem to be very sharp and cut really well as do my plane irons. I got an old stanley spoke shave that couldnt cut nothing when I got it. Using a honing guide with that surface and working up to 800 grit... I am in love with my old spoke shave now.

@WoodAndShop

4 жыл бұрын

Sandpaper costs add up over time.

@k3ith29

4 жыл бұрын

@@WoodAndShop good point. By the way... I asked you on another video about the tongue and groove plane vs a plow plane... So I just purchased a tongue and groove plane.. Stanley. Works great. I actually made some significant purchases this week as I had been saving up money for it. I've got a stanley no 50 plow plane and a stanley no 55 combination plane. Had a rabbet plane already. I also got 2 lie nielsen saws... Carcass saw and tenon saw. I did end up paying the money for rob cosmans saw and I will say it's top notch. Yes it is pricey but at the time I was looking to purchase lie nielsen was out of stock every where. Also gor a few books. Chris scwartz anarchist tool chest and his books on workbenches. Also got collins complete woodworking manual. So should have plenty to keep me busy.

@WoodAndShop

4 жыл бұрын

@@k3ith29 Sounds like you're pretty set!

Might want to do the same with a new block. Just to be sure.

I tried flattening oil stones on a concrete paid. Mainly what I got was highly polished concrete. Lol. I don't really understand why so many people love water stones so much. I mean I understand why marketers and sellers love water stones because they wear down and you have to buy another one. My translucent Arkansas oil stones have lasted for years and years and they produce an excellent cutting edge. A diamond plate will true them but you honestly almost never have to true them.

Cinder blocks have lousy accuracy tolerances of usually 1/8" (Height, width and length), but can be flattened if you abrade two blocks against one another. The downside of using them (Once flattened) is they often tend to wear far faster than whet stones.

Shoot! I was really pulling for the conder block!

There are probably many that cannot afford the diamond stone! Why not try wet dry sandpaper on float glass comparison against the diamond stone. This could be a good alternative for many that can not afforded the diamond!

I use a piece of granite with drywall sanding sheet it has a mesh style so doesn't clog and the granite keeps it flat water keeps it from moving around and it's really cheap!

@WoodAndShop

4 жыл бұрын

Great tip Eric!

I don't see the problem with having the waterstone not being totally, absolutely, flat. I mean, after 2 seconds of sharpening a blade you're probably going to have taken some material off the stone, so it won't be flat anyway.

I think your test bears more scrutiny. From 5:33 you were applying a lot of force to the ends of the stone, essentialy rocking it. Focusing pressure on the center only will give much flatter results. I lap a lot of metal and even application of force is always difficult. Look up the three plate method of flattening also for truing the cinder block as well. Dont give up.

@nicholassmerk

4 жыл бұрын

Beside uneven pressure, I'm wondering if the cinder block could be convex. I really wonder if this is "good enough".

@marks5603

4 жыл бұрын

@@nicholassmerk Perhaps not. It is very likely that the cinderblock is not nearly as flat as desired, but this can be tested for just as the flatness of the waterstone was tested with a feeler before. But it can be made extremely flat using the three plate method. What I don't like about the cinderblock is the possible disparate hardness of its components.

Thanks for doing this experiment. Seeing how long it took on the cinderblock, that $200 might be worth the time saved and accuracy. What grit is the lapping plate that you used?

What did you expect ? A cinder block was not meant to be "engineered" flat !!!… Then again if you really flatten a water stone cheaply use a piece of glass, (such as a shower glass pane) water it apply micron thin carbon powder on it (available in good japanese carpenter shop or website) and flatten your stone on that surface. Very effective and very cheap : I bought my last vial of carbon powder 3 years ago for something like $10 at the most !…

Just a short remark on the Spanish translation of the title of your KZread channel (probably an automatic translation). The original English title is “Wood and Shop”, in Spanish it appears as “Madera y Tienda”, whereas tienda actually means a place where you can go shopping (store), or even as a second meaning it means a (camper’s) tent. I suppose/suggest that the correct translation should be “Madera y Taller”, where taller is a (carpenter’s) shop. Besides this, I can only congratulate you for your excellent channel and teaching. 👍👍👍

The cinder block is good enough for me

You can use cinder block more successfully if you flatten it first. To save all that effort, use a thick piece of a float glass (make sure it is not tempered). For water stones you don't even need abrasive, they will produce own slurry quickly. For oil stones (both natural and men-made) you'll need silicon carbide powder, as they are much harder.

try using a new block that hasn't been outside swelling and contracting with the seasons. I would like to how that turns out on another video.

Your straight edge is advertised as flat to .003”. So I’m not sure how good a measure it is. Also, it’s not clear that a bit more work on the cinder wouldn’t have taken things down closer to flat. Finally, I’m not sure woodwork requires the tolerances that you’re measuring, and to the degree it does, I’d suggest that side to side curvature is probably more critical than that down the length of your stone. So I think I’ll buy myself a cinder block.

@1pcfred

4 жыл бұрын

Sharpening is not woodworking, it is metalworking. Because tools are made out of metal, not wood. The more you know. Beyond that you'd be surprised about the level of sophistication woodworking is taken to today. I guess we just expect more these days than grandpa's generation did?

@philipnorthfield

4 жыл бұрын

@@1pcfred It might be worth noting that some of the best woodworking was done hundreds of years ago I am thinking of Sheraton, Chippendale, Hepplewhite or Stradivarius violins and Steinway pianos no diamond stones or Chinese Waterstones to sharpen their tools. Also no cinder block either I guess but what they created doesn't look like it was done with blunt tools to me.

@1pcfred

4 жыл бұрын

@@philipnorthfield I am sure if they had what we do they would use it. Diamond hones are the best thing going right now. Waterstones only work on softer steels. Maintaining waterstones is a hassle too. I do not recommend them for sharpening woodworking tools. I have some Spyderco ceramic stones that are not bad though. I use them for a polish before I strop.

I use a cinder block as a cheap replacement for a basketball.

From the headline, I thought you were going to polish the cinter block with diamond plate!! I've seen people polish & shine concrete before!

Hi. What about oilstones?

@WoodAndShop

4 жыл бұрын

Oilstones can be lapped using a diamond, but oilstones don't need to be lapped nearly as often as water stones.

@roughroosterknifesharpenin5531

2 жыл бұрын

@@WoodAndShop Arkansas stones will eat a diamond stone

Why would you need any of that? I use a plate of glass with a 220 grit wet dry sandpaper on top. Glass is the most perfect straight there is. And don’t glue the sandpaper on. This may only cause bubbles and hard glue stains interrupting your plane. The friction caused by the water will act as an adhesive and stick your sandpaper to the glass itself.

@WoodAndShop

4 жыл бұрын

Glass isn't always flat and sandpaper gets very expensive in the long run.

I don't understand this obsession over stone flatness. I've literally never flattened a water stone. I have stones that are so dished out on both sides they look like an hourglass, yet I have never had a problem with sharpening blades. If you're using feeler gauges and a machinist's straightedge to test stone flatness, you've gone off the deep end, IMO. You don't need expensive $200 lapping plates to be a good woodworker. I started off with a cheap hardware store oil stone and got fine results from that lol.

@thomasarussellsr

4 жыл бұрын

Also, hand-planes need the edges of the blade relieved a bit so they don't gouge the surface of the wood, so a slightly dished stone would be best for sharpening that slightly radiused edge on the iron. I do like flat for chisels though.

A $50 Shapton on a cinder block? - no, but a clogged oil stone? Yep.

Scary

I was rooting for the concrete block to work...

@WoodAndShop

4 жыл бұрын

Me too!

@thomasarussellsr

4 жыл бұрын

Yeah, much less expensive alternative if 30 thousandths is close enough for you. Maybe load the block with some polishing compound?

Really interesting idea. I would say that buying a cheap ($70 ish) dmt plastic diamond stone is just fine. I flatten my wet stones and it works fine. No need for a dedicated diamond plate to flatten stones

I actually think if you had used a new concrete block, flattened the water stone as you did, except turn it end for end every 15 or so strokes, as well as slide it back and forth while holding it on a diagonal, then also switch that diagonal to the opposite direction, you would have had much different results.

@1pcfred

4 жыл бұрын

For that much trouble you're better off with the diamond plate.

.002, I would call it flat enough for woodworking tools.

Diamond is many times harder than whatever the cinderblock is made out of so obviously it will flatten way faster

@roughroosterknifesharpenin5531

2 жыл бұрын

Incorrect.

I heard you should drag your waterstones behind your car to get them flat.

They haven't made blocks out of cinders for a long time now. Today they're concrete blocks.

Is that a cinder block or a concrete block? It sure looks like concrete to me.

shoulda laped the cinder block with another cinder block first......that woulda made it even steven......

Why not just get a Japanese Nogura stone? Much cheaper than the diamond plate and that's what the thousands of years old culture your water stones come from use.

@WoodAndShop

4 жыл бұрын

I'll have to check them out

im pretty darn sure if you worked it a bit more it would have been flat.

Why would a cinder block be flat with precision? It doesn’t make any sense.

@thomasarussellsr

4 жыл бұрын

Yeah, "flat-ish" would be the standard. Nobody is going to "eye" a cinder block wall for perfect flatness. 30 thousandths is flatter than the average human eye can detect.

This test was bogus. For one thing is 3 THOUSANDTHS a detrimental criterion? The other is the gaps were in the MIDDLE of the water stone. That means you stopped before the induced wowwie was removed. ONE buck vs TWO HUNDRED??? Concrete block=totally KEWL.

@thomasarussellsr

4 жыл бұрын

0.03 is 30 thousandths, just saying. (3 hundredths)

You dont even need stones to be that flat at all. A perfectly flat stone and a pretty unflat stone make no difference to the sharpness of your tools. The perfect flatness myth is a way to sell books and classes

@1pcfred

4 жыл бұрын

Maybe you can deal with saddle back deep dished stones but I can't. Or at the very least I sure as hell don't want to. We ain't sharpening pocket knives here. Chisels and plane irons need accurate bevels on them to perform best. I use a honing guide because I'm not playing games over here. I've no time or interest in doing that. And before you start I sharpened by hand for many decades before I stepped up to using a guide. So I don't want any static about that.

@ConquerCollin

4 жыл бұрын

@@1pcfred a dished stone with a guide will give you very accurate repeatable results. The edge will last just as long and be just as sharp. Demanding a perfectly flat stone is like saying a red car is faster than a black one

@1pcfred

4 жыл бұрын

@@ConquerCollin not it won't. How can it? The stone is not flat so your bevel won't be flat either. You'll get a convex edge. Which is not as sharp as a flat bevel is. You don't get straight lines out of curved surfaces. At least not easily. A guide cannot compensate for the out of flat either. You're just going to copy it. You clearly do not understand where precision comes from.

@ConquerCollin

4 жыл бұрын

@@1pcfred the difference between a perfectly flat bevel and a bevel convex in such a magnitude would not be visible to the naked eye and not lead to any discernible difference in use. The blade will be exactly as sharp and work exactly as well. Wood would not lend itself to showing such a difference anyway. This is wood, we aren't precision machining watch parts.

@1pcfred

4 жыл бұрын

@@ConquerCollin my eyes can see the difference and my hands can certainly feel the difference when I am using tools. I don't know how you woodwork but I strive to be pretty precise when I'm at it. I cut end grain with a tool to make sure it leaves a polished cut to test and make sure it is sharp. Lately I've been using a particularly nasty piece of local oak to do that. Not the easiest thing to cut. I've read that our oak is despised the world over for being hard to work with. But I like it. Even if it does have the mass of iron.

not really a fair test, the block was god knows how old, weathered and not diamond, so was unlikely to be flat. get a new one, flatten it then do the test. if it then works i am certain anyone will agree the effort was worth the 200 times price difference. if it doesnt at least it was a fair test like the one i will be doing. my grandpa used a stone door step to flatten oil stones and sharpen his cut throat razor.

@1pcfred

4 жыл бұрын

In space savings alone I'd say the diamond plate is worth 200 times the price. I don't have room in my shop to store a big block!

@vogonpoet5860

4 жыл бұрын

@@1pcfred why does it have to be a complete block, in fact use any flat rough stone or brick thats harder than your water or oil stone, i use a piece of fine concrete 6inches by 1 foot by three inches. slower than diamond plate but does the trick.

@1pcfred

4 жыл бұрын

@@vogonpoet5860 Yeah you could use a cap. I use diamond plates because they work the best. I need to order some more. Diamonds aren't only a girl's best friend. I love them too! I've honestly never met the synthetic industrial diamond that I didn't like. It's handy stuff. It's made up a significant portion of my tool investments lately too. I just made a slow speed diamond disk grinder. Because rubbing stuff back and forth gets old.

@thomasarussellsr

4 жыл бұрын

@@1pcfred CBN (cubic boron-nitride?) is cheaper and lasts just as long as the man made "diamonds" used on most diamond abrasives made today.

@1pcfred

4 жыл бұрын

@@thomasarussellsr I'm not sure if there is an actual difference between what's called CBN and synthetic diamonds from many suppliers. I stick to the low end myself so they're less than reliable when it comes to terminology accuracy. I don't think their mastery of English is really all that good in fact. But the price is certainly right.

you dont need to flatten anything, its a waste of time.

@1pcfred

4 жыл бұрын

You don't need to flatten anything if you do not care about the geometry of what you sharpen. But if you do then stones definitely need to be flat.

@thomasarussellsr

4 жыл бұрын

@@1pcfred if you are going to "draw back" the edges of a plane iron or chisel, then the stones don't need to be "flat" a slight dish will keep those edges drawn back more easily.

@1pcfred

4 жыл бұрын

@@thomasarussellsr stones work better for me dead flat. I am only interested in creating a bevel angle on the blade. I never heard of drawing back an edge. It is not what I do. I hollow grind a primary then hone a secondary bevel on my blades. Which is the common accepted correct practice. It's taken me close to 50 years to get where I'm at now and I'm pretty happy with the textbook results I can achieve too.

@TylrVncnt

Жыл бұрын

Do whatever works best for you I guess lol

@kellywillems6126

5 ай бұрын

​@thomasarussellsr I've wondered about this . I don't see a problem with a slight dish if it's true the side way

Nice video. also a subscriber. I have diamond stones and they are definitely nice. But I think you made a super- excellent point ----- about using what's available sometimes. What I find entertaining is that Master Woodworkers did not have access to diamond plates, Shapton glass, Festool, Helix planers and other outrageously priced woodworking tools. Sure they're nice....but not totally necessary. Look up Antique sharpening tools. Craftsman have been sharpening the bevels of chisels, planes and knifes for thousands of years accurately. ..or at least...... accurate enough. What they made with their hands..... are temples still standing today from Europe to Japan.... and furniture that I'm willing to bet... 99.9999999 % of the people commenting here...would be stoked .... if they could make anything even close to that. Chippendale, Gillows of Lancaster, or some 18th Century French furniture.....unbelievable craftsman...and in many cases still unmatched despite all of the modern tools. Ever see how accurate how level a Japanese woodworker can flatten a HUGE piece of timber/ wood with a Plane Spear?..again probably flatter than most here commenting could with their current hand equipment. Buy Lie-Nielson , Festool, Sjoberg benches, whatever if it makes you happy. None of those things will make you a better woodworker. Skill can't be bought. Just get in the shop and build. Build your balls off ---because you'll learn through mistakes....and mistakes will make you better. And you'll at least have made something. I'm average at best...with an occasional woodworking grand slam...and remind myself often --it's about the skill...noty the tools ...at least not totally. Goodnight fellow woodworkers.

This is really a ridiculous comparison. diamond stones flat to .001 or better. Cinder blocks are no where close to that.there only flat enough for there intended use in construction. You really must have a lot of free time on your hands to waste time on this.

@leehaelters6182

4 жыл бұрын

It's an experiment, dude.

As a 100% disabled person, I request these stones as a gift from you, I would be very grateful if you send them as a gift. Please, I would appreciate it if you could give a positive answer, thank you in advance. Best Regards, Abdullah Menevse ❤❤🙏🙏🙏❤❤