Welcome to Heath's Tabletop, Toys and Fantasy. I cover many different topics in tabletop gaming and related fantasy topics. All of my video series are organized into playlists, so, if you are interested in a show or a topic, jumping into a playlist is the best way to see it all. Thank you for watching!
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Have you played Fantay Age? It is a 3d6 system
I have not ever played that one.
Took me too long to find this video... I tried to solve the same thing for my homebrew. What I ended up with was 2d6 (shorter range of dice results) and skills that go from 2 to 12 (longer ranger for the skills) The skills are actually generated with 2d6 also, at character creation. My conclusion was that by doing this I could have the dice and the skill have the same weight. My DC range is from 4 to 24, with DC 14 being the average task (a 7 skill + a roll of 7, which is the most common result on a 2d6 system) That means that a character with a skill of 12, the max possible, is so good at something that he never fails at an average task, and one with a skill of 2, the worst possible, can still succeed at it with a lucky roll of a 12. This allows me to challenge my players with higher DCs like 17, or 18 but if the character is a master at his skill, he will still succeed most of the times. The bell curve doesn't solve the problem by itself, but it provides the predictability that emphasizes the skill of the character. I am very happy with what i came up with, and play my set of rules exclusively
Nice, quick and clear rundown; thanks.
Hey, Just found this. Thanks for looking at my game.
We enjoyed it!
@@EHeathRobinson thanks. Not sure if you’d ever did up second part but I’m working on a not so much a second addition, let’s call it a 1.1 version that combines the core book and the companion. I’ll reach out and let you know when we’re releasing or kickstarting. And if you ever want to look at anything else, please feel free to just reach out. Happy to send you a free copy.
It’s always the most underwhelming specimens that fall for the intersectionality meme. Probably just happenstance.
The name of the game here is to give yourself narrative advantages to get those +5 bonuses on your roll. At low level, it is basically "only roll if you can come up with a darn good reason to get that +5."
Yes. We talked a lot about "not rolling the dice", but I don't think we talked as much about the +5 bonuses as we should have. Thank you for bringing that up.
Crazy misprint! Did the production company send you a replacement yet?
No, I hadn’t even mentioned it to them yet.
Knave 2e is incredible. It is an absolute staple and belongs on the shelf of ANY fantasy RPG player.
Anjanna sounds like bomb
What a gnarly misprint lol
Contact Swordfish Islands and they will get you a copy of the book that does not have that issue.
Some of them have this issue. My copy is the same cover, but correct orientation.
Okay. Will do!
Great overview!
Thank you!
Here are my house rules. 1. Each Hero rolls a white die for searching \ treasure finding. If a skull is rolled, they can perform that action. 2. The group can only search for treasure once per room. If Wizard pulled a treasure card, no matter what it is, no other Hero can pull a treasure card for that room. 3. When no monsters are on the table, each Hero can move 7 squares. 4. If a Hero is killed, roll a white die for each item they possess. If you roll a skull, that item is gone. For gold, roll percentile die to determine how many gold is lost. 5. A Hero has X amount of lives. X equals Body Pts \ 2 rnd down. Therefore, the Dwarf, with 7 Body pts, can be killed 3 times before he is permanently dead and out of the campaign. If the group are in a room and they want to search for secret doors and no one rolls a skull, essentially, no one can find a secret door even though one does exist. And yes, that could mean the group fails the quest because that is the only way to complete the quest. You cannot win them all.
If your goal is to make a level 1 player always hit a DC10, why bother rolling at all? The problem with the concept that players should automatically succeed at tasks this is that you are thinking in video game terms. Im a former soldier. Under stress of combat things you THINK should be easy on a flat range against paper targets suddenly get much much harder in combat or even under lesser stresses such as better training scenarios (people firing at you with lasers, after you carried weights up and down stairs for a while etc to increase the mental and physical stress). IMO would be the same with noncombat skills such as trying to pick a lock or whatever with the stress of the town guards catching you knowing the penalty for felonies in medieval-ish towns is death or at least getting an hand chopped off. Rolling something like 2d10 will flatten the curve and produce more midrange results, less 1s 2s but also less 19s and 20s if that is what you want. A lot of early D&D was simply a D6 (or 2d6) making proficiencies matter more, so the idea of a higher proficiency bonus isn't that wild. I try to like dice pool games, but in reality I spend all my time trying to search a book to determine which dice to use. Math isn't fun, not because it's hard to add a few numbers to get to 20 but because it requires you to remember or look up rules in a tome. Im not denying your logic that proficiency SHOULD be more important than the mighty d20, but Slow Ass Game should be attacked at every opportunity. I prefer advantage along with luck dice/ karma dice/ hero dice to fix the problems. DM Scotty's Luck Dice are my favorite.
Another concept that always bothers me, again given my military background, is that the curve between level zero (untrained) to level 1 (say soldiers with basic training only) to level 2 (low level soliders with some experience) to level 3 (say squad leaders or sergeants) should be pretty steep, probably the steepest of all proficiencies. Beyond that, my world would flatten. The reason "higher level" people are harder to kill shouldn't be that they can take more hits (or dodge/avoid them) but rather because they tend to have more help around them. Commanders, kings or presidents even should be relatively soft targets but increasingly difficult to access. Higher level characters would start losing bonuses as they age and or have war injuries. At least with martial characters who aren't magical.
You both did a great job!!! I'm very into Z. Playing 2nd Ed and Invader right now. BP is coming up next. ❤
Thank you!
I actually follow 3 house rules when playing Hero Quest 1.) No set order for Heroes - Instead of having the heroes go in a set order (like the rulebook says), I let them go in any order they choose. This encourages them to further strategize their approach to monsters and traps. 2.) Unthreatened Movement - This house rule was added in the DLC quest "Into the Northlands" which basically means that if there are no monsters visible on the board, each hero can move up to 8 spaces. 3.) If there are no monsters visible on the board and the quest objectives are complete, they're given the option to end the quest and mark it as "completed", or if the dungeon isn't fully explored, to explore further and collect any treasures they may have missed.
Class based systems aren't really balanced either. GM communication and making sure all the players are on the same page is the biggest thing I've seen to make sure everyone is contributing. Balance problems have always come in situations where the GM describes a game, and each player still has a different idea what that entails or what is an acceptabe level of optimization. Like you REALLY have to separate the optimizers from the people who build their characters to "make sense" or reflect their backstory. You can Optimize the fuck out of GURPS though, it's still a little easier to deal with so long as you keep starting points low and be very specific about what the player's can and cannot take. And I think that might be the way GURPS should go moving further. Ways to make it easier on the GM to focus what advantages/skills are appropriate for the game you're running.
Kinda curious, now, how the math works out if you use the proficiency bonus number as a multiplier for the ability score bonus...
A good listen and thanks for the "Special Thanks". Also the minis look nice. Can't wait
Stream a game soon
I was just talking to someone about that a moment ago. I would love to return to Dinner and a Boardgame while this is going on. It would be great to have some of the cast members from The Cultists be part of the game.
I think the Pokemon Go line comes with trademark complications. How do you feel about trading it out for something like: "hotspot for a popular augmented reality mobile game"?
Mechanics with strong averages produce average games.
Hi Heath, Love your videos. At the beginning of the video you said when a character gets to level 5 they're about 25% of the way through the game. By this reasoning a level 10 character is 50% through the game, And by level 20 they are at the pinnacle of their respective class. Based on your DC20 probability table, a level 5 character who is a quarter of the way through the game, with a +5 modifier, has a 25% chance of their skills affecting the role. A level 10 character with +10 has a 50% chance of affecting the role, so based on that logic a level 15 PCs +15 modifier is good for 75% chance and, showing that the math works out perfectly, a level 20 PC that has +20 will hit a DC20 100% of the time which is what you would expect. Unless I've misunderstood your reasoning, the math works out exactly as it should. So what it ultimately show us is using multiple dice in DnD is for crybabies that don't like losing and want to skew the probability in their favour. That's called cheating ;-) “M-m-m-mommy, my fifth level character can only hit the Ancient Brass Dragon (AC20) once every four rolls..... It's just not fair!”
Thank you. Glad you’ve been enjoying the videos! Great to have you. I don’t think the style of play I am advocating for is intended to cheaters or crybabies. Yes, a fifth level character might be about 25% of the way through the game, in terms of reaching the pinnacle of its ability. But, the vast, vast majority of against never make it to level 20. Most D&D games are at low levels. So the lament is not the fifth level fighter can’t take out a mature brass dragon, the lament would be that you rarely (and some players never) get to play a confident character in this game who can fight the big dragons. Most games are played down to low levels, where randomness matters more than character skill.
HackMaster Basic (fully compatible but more limited) is free to download, or a middle ground, HackMaster Basic Plus, is available for a dollar.
I don't think he understands what the D20 and Modifers actually represent.
What do they represent to you?
@EHeathRobinson The D20 represents the chaotic nature of the universe. Most players/dm think of it as a random marker of the potential of the PC, similar to attack dice. But it encompasses everything the PC can not control in that situation. This goes the same for modifiers. Modifer do not strictly represent how good a PC is, but how prepared they are for different situations. For example, say someone is locked by picking a DC 15 with a mod +5. Most players/DM will say something along the lines of "You failed to pick the lock". Or if they succeeded, "You successfully picked the lock." In actually, if a player fails to pick the logic, it is because of an unsee circumstance they were not prepared for. The lock was too rusted, and the tumblers inside were specially designed. The gear mechanism was triggered and created a blockage. If they sucess was complete due to their modifers, that meant they were prepared to handle thay situation. If the succeed without the modifer it mean the situation worked in their favor. The inside was so damaged it didn't take any hard effort, there was a flaw in the design causing it spring with little effort, it appears someone tried to pick this lock before you and left when they were nearly there. One reason why this is to prevent players from trying again. If the failed to lock pick a normal lock solely because a lack of random skill proficiency (which doesn't make sense) all they have to do is keep trying. If the lock is rusted, they can no longer keep trying. The D20 system makes the player fight against the randomness of the universe. With systems like 2D10, 3D6, or 5D4, the players are fighting against the most predictable outcome. Even furter a +10 modifer against as a DC 20 is a perfect representation of the amount of control person has against the universe. You can be a skilled surfer in a competition, but you can not predict who you will surfer against, what the water is like, what waves you will hit, etc. This even applies to advantages and disadvantages. When you roll two dice, you are basically rolling the results of two univerese. If you need a DC15 and roll too low on one die, and too high on another die. You are basically faced with the option that in one universe the conditions of the situation prevent you from succeeding, and in the other universe either you are prepared to face the random challenge, or fate allows you to succeed. Technically, difficult checks aren't about the difficulty of the task. The difficulty of the situation presented narratively speaking. When applied to attack roll, this changes a bit, but the D20 still represent randomness. Dust flys in the PC/enemies eyes, the creature is hesitates, the PC steps on uneven ground, the creature is slow to reach, the creature blocks the attack. The thing that the PC has no control over.
I recently purchased a set of 3D miniatures en Etsy of Heroquest named characters and whomever designed them made the figure of Zargon or should we say of Morcar a slender and younger humanoid wearing a Staff and dressed covered in a cloak, I think it is the same depiction of Morcar von Zargon created by Odanan on DeviantArt
Incredible.
My versions 2.0 of my table and my thoughts: kzread.info/dash/bejne/kXZ2sZJyaZOtgrw.html
Another idea might be to roll 3d20 and take the middle die as your die roll. This helps create a bell curve, but also reduces the amount of calculations needed and sticks closer to the traditional 1-20 range. One die system that I saw that would really let you dial in the die roll influence used the stat+skill to determine a skill total value. Then you would roll 2d6, predetermining by color which d6 is positive and which is negative. This had a couple of advantages: 1) it always gave you a distribution centered on your value. 2) because the target number was on the same scale as your skill value, it was very intuitive to determine if a target number was automatic, easy, challenging, difficult, or impossible. You could, of course change the dice used in a system from d6's to d10's for a broader range or to d4's for a narrower one. You could even vary it depending on circumstance and/or the skill. Some things are going to be more luck dependent, like combat. While other things will be more rooted in skill, like knowledge or profession checks.
For encumbrance and resource tracking, I use the systems outlined in the Web DM book Weird Wastelands. All consumables are tracked with resource dice, and you get a certain number of inventory slots/points based on Strength. Each item is sorted into categories that say how many points they cost to carry around. Usually 1 to 3.
Love the long breakdown format with chat interaction to analyze the system
Thank you. Glad you enjoyed it!
I personally would love to have a higher proficiency bonus system to have higher skill gaps. So the reflection of skill is based on level progression. So later in game the weak enemies are swept and the hard enemies require skill to beat.
the power creep of 5th edition is ridiculous. the article he is 'debunking' is based on 1e. cantrips didnt exist yet and the ones he's describing are much more powerful than 1e's 1st or 2nd level spells.
This way of analysis on the game is very cool, gonna tune in for future livestreams for sure
Thank you! It will be great to have you!
First video in a long time that actual talks about a new dice system! Thank you. Been looking for that inspiration for my own ttrpg system. Brewing up something fancy.. but ways to go still.
Excellent! I’m glad you enjoyed it
Hilariously, players in XCOM still feel like the dice rolls are too chaotic and not in their favor, even though behind the scenes they are actually less random and more in their favor than displayed on screen. Thousands of people say that in XCOM, 90% chance to hit is basically a coin flip. In reality, it's actually a 95% chance to hit when it says "90%"...
My god, we've had all the same ideas! I made a system where you track wound sizes, and each wound is reduced in size by 1 each week. The First Aid skill can reduce the size of a wound if initiated within 10 minutes of receiving that wound (takes 10 minutes). (note that wound sizes and endurance/hp have much lower values than in D&D, so 1 wound size is significant) I wish I could show it in practice, but my first playtest will be next week, so it's all still theoretical and amenable to change.
Very cool. I think wound sizes are the way to go. I’m looking forward to working with it in the future project of mine as well. I hope your testing goes well.
So there are a few differences in the US and UK rules. How healing potions and spells are used are important. What I do as DM is I allow the automatic use of a healing spell if available upon death. Potions on the other hand are "use em or loose em" rules. It controls Hero potion stockpiling and ad makes them use potions in between battles more often. Not knowing what is around the corner and being prepared is a better way to get them to use more potions.
I like that too. It makes players think ahead.
Yes, in Pathfinder second your initiative is tied to what you were doing before combat starts, so very often for Rouges stealth is used, and it is possible that for a spell caster it could be an Arcana check, especially if they were doing some sort of magical investigation when the trap is sprung
Okay. I did not remember that about 2e Pathfinder.
I have still not gotten to play DC20, but it doesn't seem like it will be hard (based on the Actual Plays I have watched and all of the coach's videos), but he needs this feedback, since the rules as written might be in need of streamlining. Remember what most people are reading now is only an Alpha and it has only had about a year of design. For something like 5e or Pf2e there were many years of design work by far larger teams that were all done behind the scenes (and they each were built/adapted from existing systems and rule sets) before we as players knew about them. Mark Seifter has mentioned before that Pf2e was in the early design stages when 5e first came out, so sometime in late 2013/early 2014. The public announcement wasn't until 2018 and the first printing was 2019. The coach and his small team have been working on this for about 1 year.
I do want to try it out. There is a lot in it that I like.
Love how you described the prime
Thank you!
I think that the coach's idea is that the vast majority of players are optimizing (at least to an extent) in all RPGs and therefore to be relevant in other systems, you have to optimize around the key stat for each class. So you HAVE to have your strength as high as possible in 5e, Pf2e, etc. if you want to be an effective Fighter. And when systems try and work around this and give options to be a Fighter that uses other statistics it just doesn't work as well because the core math of the game means you have to optimize the Strength above all else or you will just not be as good as other Fighters who did optimize and you won't be as good as other classes who optimized. In DC20 you can be a Fighter that chooses to be charismatic, or intelligent, or agile and they will all still be just as effective in the core of the game which is combat/challenges, since those are typically centered around the Prime modifier and not the modifier or a specific stat. Thus allowing you to build the character you want in your story and still be on par with other players at the table.
A critical hit that is not also heavy or brutal, could be thought of as critical in timing/situation. The only way that nat 20 plus all the modifiers is not either heavy or brutal is when the opponent has high defense, so in that case it is critical in that you get a hit at all. So the increase damage from the critical is a nice bonus, since the opponent is likely to have damage reduction (since we know that had a high defense (either physical or mystical)).
Oops... I was wrong. Don't remember where I got the idea... a conversation derived from a conversation, I guess... but Barbarians do NOT get Damage Reduction. There are also other ways to bypass it. DC's video (he has at least two channels) "Physical Damage Reduction | DC20 Game Design Insights" goes into the design of it into some depth.
1:18:47 Also with Parry, you’re more likely to reduce a heavy hit to a regular hit, allowing your Physical Damage Reduction to kick in
1:13:10 At my table, we just allow the players use defensive maneuvers/reactions after the result is called, as long as they are quick about it. However, monsters/enemies can do this too.
When you talk about it should be harder to get a brutal hit on an enemy with armor, that is essentially how DC20 actually handles it. Because enemies with more armor will have a higher physical defense, the number required to beat that physical defense by 5 or more also goes up.
But when you hit really well (Brutal Hit etc) it bypasses the Damage Reduction. So they're kind of smooshed together... you do need good Physical Defense to avoid an attacker getting a hit which can get around your armor. The more I think about it it seems more like an AC system with Damage Reduction mixed into it.
Thank you for the insight Simeon. I don't think we have actually gotten to the part where we are talking about how to calculate the defense ratings and such. I suppose that is coming. I am interested to know how the armor related to physical defense and to damage reduction. I guess we will find out. At the moment, I am kind of feeling like Hllsente is, this this is both kinds of systems mixed together.
DC20 combat in my opinion is about the same speed of play, but much more dynamic and engaging so it feels faster!
Prime Modifier means that every adventurer is competent in battle (both fighting and casting) without having to pay a tax to invest in it. That allows class features to shine more in terms of how and how well you do fighting or casting, and allows for any class to focus on any attribute for out of combat play. I was a skeptic when first seeing it but it really works well!
So 2y later, but I'll comment anyway. I like this in theory, but I think there's one thing I'd add in. Namely, some way to increase your upper potential by increasing the randomness. Basically saying if we are at that top level tier 12+1d4 with a maximum potential of 16 we could choose to increase the die to add randomness back in, but with the possibility of penalizing you for low rolls. So let's say we want to increase the die size by 1 step from d4 to d6, but because we changed by 1 step of we roll a 1 it's a penalty instead, making the roll essentially 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, or -1. If we went up to d8 it would be -1 or -2. Risk, reward. We could even make the penalty exponential so to go up 3 steps (d10) it would be 1-4 is a penalty and 4 steps (d12) would be 1-7. I'd likely cap it at d20 and 1-10. This would mean if you're lower level it's safer to take the risk, but it provides a max potential boost up to a possible 12+1d20 or 32 maximum possible roll before stat mod. I believe the max ability score mod possible in 5e rules is +7 so that would be 39, putting DC40 out of reach for all but the most magically enhanced characters. Feels pretty powerful, but we are talking about the levels where Wish gets cast so is it really?