The difficulties of applying STEM engineering principles to the test-driven and validated scientific approach of Luthiery. The use of Computer-Aided Drafting, simulation, and analysis, as well as Computer Numerical Control, is explored in the design, testing, and creation of custom instruments such as violins, mandolins, nyckelharpas, banjos, hurdy-gurdies, cellos, violas, basses, and lap steel guitars, among others; and I enjoy sharing a joke now and then.
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This is a great theory where would a beginner start to study these methods
I generally study at the school of hard knocks, so I'm not the best guy to ask. I would say to just get into it, and solve problems as they come, each mistake is an opportunity to learn a valuable lesson.
Why not run a full depth pass ? No water marks and less wear on the bit by using the full cut length. You would cut the machine time 2/3 … ramp in on X,Y one cut and a finish pass. The strategy you are using is for slot milling but you removed the waste… full length of cut is the best way to save time and your bit life. This is coming from a machinist.
Ahh, well I hate to tell you this but it doesn't work that way and pretty obvious why. What you are talking about is called HSM, and it's great for production, but the feeds and speeds have to be perfect.
@@TwoCherriesIns if you say so
What kind of CNC machine are you using?
It's a CRP 2448, the company name is Avid CNC, check them out, it's a great machine.
Cnc guitars are actually harder, because of all the thinking before the final product. I do same
This is very true, every detail has to be planned, and small errors can make for big problems.
Hi, can I get these projects to build on my CNC? do you provide?
I share the Fusion360 files on my pateon
Im too poor for cnc 🥲
I made guitar body's manually and solid them on eBay to pay for this cnc, my initial investment was $300. If you're willing to work for it, it's very attainable.
I like semi hollow and hollow body guitars so I am in on this one
Agreed
thanks! do you have a link to a video showing how to model such shapes in Fusion?
Look for my violin design videos, the basics are there.
dome height?
The contour is quite specific, and that's only a small part of what makes this shape so interesting. I do share the complete Fusion 360 files with my patron membership.
I think you are misunderstanding me somewhat. I commend your efforts, just doubt you will ever get to where you want to be that way. I also understand that just the programming alone is an art in itself, but it is just not the art of instrument making. Good luck!
I think you're the one that's missing the point, you're entitled to your opinion, and that is all. You're insistence that your way is the only way is shortsighted and outright wrong.
CNC can never do what the great luthiers have done for hundreds of years. There is not one set of perfect measurements. Every great violin is different from all others. All is dependent on the stiffness and texture of each and every wooden part. That is determined by years of experience carving and fitting all the parts into the best possible instrument. The feel of the resistance when carving tells the luthier the proper thickness of each piece. The way the plates bend under the tension he twists them with. No two pieces of wood are the same, Not even from the same tree. No two luthiers are the same. No two musicians are the same. No computer programs can find this out. Not even AI. All goes back to that saying I first heard in the early 70's, "Garbage in, Garbage out. It may look like a violin, but will end up being a item that looks like a violin.
You obviously didn't watch the video, I only rough carve on the cnc, the tuning is all done manually, just like it was by the masters.
@@TwoCherriesIns By the time the masters got to that part they already were intimate with the wood under their fingers. They also knew that what was required in a spruce tone bar was far different from what was needed in the spruce belly. They are not the same density.
@andydepaule3296 well not really, that work would have been done by apprentices, and the way we learn is to test these assumptions, and I came to a similar conclusion, and learned a bunch of things on the way.
An apprentice is not a CNC machine. He or she is a human and that is far more complex than any computer.
@@TwoCherriesIns If you are going for mass production then this would be the way to go today. However if you want to copy the masters, you need to work like them. Guanari del Gesu was poor and I don't think he had any apprentice. I've worked in a violin mill for a couple of years and know well the difference.
impossible milling machine for my garage ))00
Why impossible?
@@TwoCherriesIns big and expensive ;-)
@@xras66 I made guitar body's manually to pay for it, it's under 3k and my total investment was $300, the rest was all my own labor, and last I checked we all have plenty of that.
@@TwoCherriesIns 👍
Thanks for the video..
You Are very welcome
What type is the long router bit you are using on the cnc?
Its a 1/2" straight 2f bit, these are 3" long and I usually get 2 to 2.5, the 3" is only needed very rarely. They are not expensive and you can usually find them at your local hardware store.
whats that bit you use to contour the fretboard? I'd love to get one just don't know what it's called.
I get that question all the time, and it's nothing fancy. 3/4" ball end router bit from the local big box hardware store.
Your YSAC reference just earned you a like. Also, I adore this design and aspire to your level of creativity and dedication.
Well at least one person noticed, thanks!
Are there any benefits of using laminated wood? Is it because it is easier to bend and make it a dome shape?
Not really, In production it's less expensive, and much quicker. This way it's a lot more labor, for a top that is not as good as a solid top. But you have to try it to know.
How do you index the body when you put it back on the CNC? I’m toying with fully hollow but double flip milling frightens me.
I use the center line of the instrument and a center line on the machine. It gets a bit technical to describe, I've tried a couple of times in videos. The way I do the flip is a lot different than other makers.
I was wondering why your videos were so soothing to watch, then I realised you sound like Richard Dreyfuss when he narrated the movie Stand by me 😂 great work on the fretboards they look great 👍
Thanks, I appreciate that
ever think of doing more of a straight on build type of video where you engage the audience with the actual build and process and tips,trick kind of moving in a linear framework, step one,okay heres some issues i ran into..bla,blah blah,,ya know be more real..instead of some kind of phoney philosophical NPR crap?? I bet your channel would do really well then..
Yep, nobody watches them, they are by far my least viewed content, and it's even more evident in the fact that you haven't found them.
@@TwoCherriesIns ok whateva just saying you sound like a big phoney..
@@lpa74 This makes me wonder why you keep commenting; you're telling the algorithm that you, in fact, like this content enough by making multiple comments. You do know that it doesn't know the difference between negative and positive comments, right? They will try to feed you my content for the next couple of weeks. While you are entitled to your opinion, the analytics are clear, and while others are successful at precisely what you suggest, it does not mean I will be. If you don't like it, you are much better off moving on, but continue if you must.
What kinds of wood are needed to build nyckelharpa?
I'm not using traditional woods here. I usually use tonewoods that work well for violin family instruments, as this is certainly in the group.
I've only had a CNC for a little bit. Messed up a lot necks, did some upgrades to the machine, gotten a few workable necks, I'm getting better. I've watched your video's time and time again trying to learn how you set these bodies up. I got the Z axis from the spoil board. I set that stupid probe aside (because things turn out better if I Z from the spoil board) and I see you set the Y to the centerline but how do you get the X? I gather you set the bit to the side of the body just enough to cut into it but I feel like I'm missing some info here.. Can you clarify how you get the X-Y Axis? I would really appreciate this because I'm very interested in understanding the way you set this up.. Thanks man (I designed a body today that I want to try and cut out this week) I plan on X-Y from center with a board on the side for a guide and Im drilling index pins using tape and CA glue.
Try this one kzread.info/dash/bejne/gIufm7N-lJzUn5s.htmlsi=r596wQ9FeBOHZizb
Nice video. What are the dimensions of the router bit you used for the edge milling? thx.
I typically use this 1/2" x 3" tool.
@@TwoCherriesIns thx.
I just watched the video again, and keep getting more out of it. In terms of how you secure the material to the cnc bed, what sort of glue / hardner is that and is that regular masking tape? Also, in terms of setting the z axis zero, are you adjusting for the height of the tape? thx.
@@_trzn_ it's starboard CA and accelerator, there is a discount code in many of my videos descriptions. It's just standard masking tape. And yes I do account for the thickness of the tape, usually about .030" gives me an onion skin and avoids any engagement with the spoil board.
Dude Did you sell bass necks?
Nope, I make KZread videos
Do you sell programs?
I share the Fusion360 files with my patron members
Do you sell programs?
I share my files with Pareon members.
How much do you sell the program?
All the files I use are available on patreon , the membership is $1/mo
Nice knolling, but- and I'm sure you know- the materials and construction of that pickup aren't Bigsby at all. You gave a P90 some Bigsby cosmetics, it seems. Might sound just fine and pass as a Bigsby visually but it won't sound like the real thing. Yours is similar to how they built the pickups for the reissue Bigsby guitars that Gretsch came out with a while back.
Yep, but it actually sounds very close to the actual remakes, if Paul had access to the tools we have today I'm pretty sure he would be making them in a very similar way.
Oh, and these are not p90 dimensions it is to scale and modeled from the originals, It won't fit into a standard cavity.
Your modeling is so amazing! I also make modeling with Rhino. Well, to be honest, it's not easy at all. Your video really inspire me to overcome the troubles that is modeling corner of violin. This problem bothers me at least three months. Thank you for sharing your solutions. BTW, I also use CNC to cut a front plate. I highly recommand to finish it automatically because cutting process only takes me three hours.
Thanks, I'm very happy to have helped a small amount.
I'm curious about the fretboard. What did you fill the grooves and markers with? What did you use to seal everything before sanding? I'm building a lap steel now and the fretboard is a challnge
It's mica powder and epoxy resin, and the pore filler is zpoxy finishing resin.
@@TwoCherriesIns excellent, thank you. Epoxy was one route I was exploring, I appreciate the info
Also, I love the bridge as headstock instead of traditional tuners. That seems to make so much sense
I have never been a fan of all the space combined with the wedge shape of lap steel head socks. This worked out well.
@@TwoCherriesIns what brand is it?
Since you made this 17-part series of your CNC produced copy of the Guaneri 'del Gesu" Vieutemps, you probably have become aware of the CNC copy of a Stradivarius done from actual CT scans of an actual Strad. The team that produced it used carefully selected, aged wood to get as close to the density and grain of the Strad. It was later stained and made to look almost identical to the actual violin by a museum reproduction professional. Later it was presented to a group of violin professionals and music experts at a music seminar. Both the original Strad and the copy were played side by side, without telling the audience which was which. They then voted for which one they thought was the actual Strad. Amazingly, they got it wrong. If nothing else, it proves that CNC produced instruments can, in fact, be very good-sounding instruments. The main difference between the ones being mass-produced primarily in China, and the handmade individually crafted bench violins being made both in China and many other countries, is that the wood quality used for the CNC is not of the exceptional grades that most luthiers seek out when they are going to put the time into hand carving. The cheapest ones also often are flawed by production shortcuts. I have both a Chinese bench made violin ($4,000) and a CNC made Chinese violin ($350). In all honesty, there is a difference in the sound, though the inexpensive one has a decent sound even for performance. The bench made is bit a easier to play and a has warmer tone and is more resonant. As I'm sure you know, there are so many other variables that come into play (string selection, quality of bow hair, rosin, skill level of the player, etc.) that it is very difficult to make a dogmatic claim that CNC violins aren't as good as hand carved. For those who argue that hand carved violins are more "unique", I would reply that most of them are also copies of the most well-known Strads, Guaneri's, Amatis, etc. and show little uniqueness even in the assemblage. The biggest thing that makes them unique is the wood itself... and that can also be true of CNC made violins. For the most part, it is just the hard-core traditionalists who hate to think that one day everyone might be able to afford a great sounding violin, and no one will stand out... which of course isn't true. No matter how much the violins look and sound alike, the skill of the player will always be what makes it truly great.
What name of the white part?
The binding?
Oh man that channel routing is such an anxiety trip.
Why is that?
@@TwoCherriesIns Because I've messed it up at that stage before 😉
@@Aeidotronics ok, with this particular tool, I find it very safe. I understand your anxiety though.
really great, but why use such a thickly grained top? sound travels through finely grained wood best. You are a pro, but not in the wood choice sir. thanks for sharing your talent.
I challenge you to prove that assumption. Why is that the case? And why do coarse grained tops sometimes sound fantastic?
Did you crush that mother of pearl into powder? Or, did you buy powder? I ordered some flakes for some small fretboard inlays was looking for powder just wondering..
I buy it as powder.
Man this video is gonna help me tremendously with my LP project coming up.Did you tile the tool path for the headstock?.I'm trying to figure out how to segment the neck up accurately like you do here.Is it just careful measurements and attachments to the spoilboard? Also this is a killer soundtrack,it reminds me of David Rowback's guitar playing! Thanks!
I share my fusion files with my patron group, It's a good way to get a bit more insight into my toolpath and set up choices.
@@TwoCherriesIns oh awesome! IM joining thanks!
thanks for the great video. I do a lot of woodworking and just got a cnc router, now I'm motivated to make my wife a new guitar.
That sounds like a perfect plan
Great job Sir!!!
Thanks
Great news! I finally got my first CNC. Ive seen your methods and they make sense to me.. When routing a body on the router table its very important to cut as little material as possible to avoid chip out and kick back.. Thats the entire reason i wanted a CNC.. well that and the ability to do some tiny inlay.. and a quicker method of neck profiling.. okay lots of reasons.. Anyways thanks for the amazing tips and inspiration! Ill be honest half of what you say in describing your methods are spanish to me but im willing to put in the effort and learn this.
That's great, feel free to ask a question if you get stuck.
I would like to hire you to do that for me if I could.
Completely booked at the moment
Would you be interested in designing a half paddle head fender style neck for me in a vetric aspire capable file?
I only use fusion 360, vectic aspire is not capable of the adaptive and scallop toolpaths I use.
@@TwoCherriesIns can fusion save files as stl
@@patruddiman4228 yes, but you lose a lot of resolution, and all the curves are converted to triangular faces. In turn to follow these faces the gcode is choppy and not smooth.
Hi. Are you doing machining in Fusion already or you import 3D model to Aspire or Vectric and do it there? Machining of the back side of the neck is done in 3 phases right, as a separate jobs?( headstock-knee-middle part)Thanks and a great job
The CAD and CAM are both done in Fusion 360, yes the milling is done in three sections, it keeps the milling form having a lot of big rapid moves, and cuts down the run time a bit.
An air blower jet pointed at your cutting tool will do wonders. I cant imagine how I managed on my CNC before I had that! If you get a small reciprocating air pump you dont even need a noisy air compressor, just hook the pump to a Mach4 relay and it comes on when your spindle does.
I use dust collection, I only do it like this for videos.
@@TwoCherriesIns I had vacuum dust collection first, with brushes around the spindle. It is nowhere near as good as an air jet, whichnclears the chips even out of deep grooves while it is cutting. I don't even bother hooking up the dust collection now, partly b3cause it just doesnt work that good and partly because of thenhigh noise and energy costsmof a shopvac running all the time when cutting. The little reciprocating pump is only about 120 watts and nice and quiet. It blows chips out of the grooves, but also blows them away from the top surface of the material as the spindle moves around. The chips and dust end up around the periphery of the workpiece and can be vacuu ed up very quickly after the job is done. Anyway, great video, thanks for sharing. 👍🙂
@@wizrom3046 sure, I do run air blast when cutting small metal parts, I have a few videos that you can see it in. I use a full 4" dust collector the air volume is much higher than a shop vac, and the noise level is much less. The linear rails on this machine have a tendency to get jammed by chips so I don't use air blast with wood, and it makes an absolute mess of the shop with dust.
@@TwoCherriesIns Ahh ok great thanks for the info. Yeah the air blast does send ships flying, that's not a problem on my machine I have linear rail types that are dust proof. 🙂
You can also make a neck block and a block for your Bridge Pickup to locate on.
I didn't something like that for the prototype, this actually worked really well.
I sure enjoy your videos and have learned a great deal. You seem to use the ball bit in many operation. Just curious what type of bit it is.
I get that question a lot, and it's strange, It's a 3/4" ball end from my local big box hardware store, you can get them very easily.
@@TwoCherriesInsThank you sir. I appreciate it
This was a really cool insight into the process on a super interesting shape! Great video
Thanks, something very similar to come with your build.
Can't wait! @@TwoCherriesIns
I cannot even begin to express my gratitude for all the work that went into this. The amount of effort and care you put into preserving the design intent is nothing short of spectacular. Thanks for doing this, and for sharing your process.
It's been a pleasure, thanks for being patient with my very slow production.
Firstly the so-called purists and nay sayers should just screw off! With detail and further honing of your craft you can produce a concert violin and bring prices in reach of many. Ninety seven percent of the audiences would not hear the difference! Keep up the great work!🙏🙏🙏
Thanks, I just let them do there thing, I've be surprised by the amount of interest in this, I'm definitely going to keep it up.
Does anyone know where I can get the machining program?
Different machines use different code, speeds and feeds, and tooling, so its a bit more complicated than that.
@@TwoCherriesIns Great ASMR
@@user-cu9sn1gz1u thanks
Can you build an 8-string guitar?
7 or 9 sure, 8 I don't think it's possible...