TWIM is my main method. Did some retreats with it and had a great experience with it. The six Rs are clunky at first but one gets into a smooth flow after a couple days; I thinks it’s great for counteracting the tension of craving and keeping a person moving in the soft jhana direction. It’s frustrating to hear that it is being by appropriated and I agree with Vince says here. Someone had to say it. Doing a ten day at Dhamma Suhka where Bhante V used to teach is amazing for the record. TWIM is legit as are many methods. I also did Goenka retreats and TWIM is much safer. I feel like I’m mainly saying TWIM works well and has a strong context. Nothing is perfect and I am always learning and listening to new teachings. Thanks
@jakebraden1460Ай бұрын
I wonder if the jhourney guys are delivering TWIM as it is delivered by authorized teachers. I wonder if morality is emphasized (sila) for example, or the other various Buddhist topics like dependent origination. TWIM is about as Buddhist as it gets!
@charlesdacosta2446Ай бұрын
This understanding of "buddhist tantra is incorrect". So the starting point is wrong. But i do understand the desire to change things, especially if it is in a way we think is more in line with modern thought. This guy should claim to base his new approach on some of the ideas behind tantra and buddhism.
@Mac-ku3xuАй бұрын
Cultural appropriation? As a Scot should I be outraged when I see non-Scots using penicillin, the TV, the phone, the fridge, the syringe, the engine, the tyre, or the flushing toilet? Maybe you should be carrying your excrement into the back garden and burying it, instead of insensitively flushing it away using Scottish tech.
@hansenmarcАй бұрын
Very nice idea. Thank you for sharing! 🙏
@hansenmarcАй бұрын
I don’t know many details about the histories of Bill Hamilton, Kenneth Folk, and Daniel Ingram. Were they lineage holders? I wish Jhourney the best of luck, but would definitely feel better if they partnered with more experienced retreat teachers. I know Delson Armstrong has both taught TWIM retreats and been involved in medical research involving jhanic states. He seems like the perfect person for them to collaborate with. I wonder if they’ve reached out to him.
@clifftrewin1505Ай бұрын
Once I hear you cant adopt things because It is "cultural appropriation" then I know you are dealing with woke bullshit. If a practice is good steal it. Are you proposing patented dharma ?
@Mac-ku3xuАй бұрын
He's a Palestinian?! He'd better be careful about a world where you can only use the technology developed by your own group. He'd have to get by with falafel and keffiyehs.
@MM-vo1ij2 ай бұрын
He already knew that technologies make people lonely. Yes, we are now...I really thank for your teaching🙏May buddhism wisdom spread all over the world and may we be wiser and more compassionate!
@johnpienta42002 ай бұрын
Delightful as always. Thanks for sharing with us.
@hansenmarc2 ай бұрын
I thought that a cessation, in which the mind apparently loses consciousness, was the taste of nirvana. In AN 9.34, the Nibbana Sutta: Unbinding, a monk asks how the unbinding can be pleasurable when there is nothing felt. Sariputa responds that it is pleasurable precisely because there is nothing felt.
@VinceFHorn2 ай бұрын
The pleasure comes after, not during. In the moment of cessation there are, as Bill Hamilton pointed out, no reference points upon which to base a description.
@bodhimofo2 ай бұрын
This takes me back to Naropa days, it mirrors stuff Reggie, Shishin Wick, and Lama Tenpa would say. I'm so glad y'all are putting this out into the world.
@IowaLanguages2 ай бұрын
Thank you for this! ❤
@IowaLanguages2 ай бұрын
9 years ago. Are we closer now?
@dh.maitrijit44623 ай бұрын
Thank you so much Ryan !
@johnpienta42003 ай бұрын
Delightful. Thanks for sharing this.
@airbornepizza3 ай бұрын
I just saw this shared today, and magically enought I had just been thinking of Bob Thurman sharing this years ago and how much I loved it! Excited to watch this video.
@jeffg74784 ай бұрын
19:00
@TarnishedBuddha4 ай бұрын
Thanks, Ryan!
@jordanevans92745 ай бұрын
Great video. Thankyou
@michaelnice935 ай бұрын
I always thought the vagueness was important in cults and spiritual organizations and religions because the practitioner can fill in the blank with what works for them in terms of motivation. Also it makes the promises of these organizations more or less obtainable depending on what the leader(s) would like, so they can move the goal post if they would like to keep you around our get rid of you. It just provides wiggle room. The practicing within a group also gives lots of room to hide out and disguise our intent through keeping it vague. And a final thought it’s all pretty subjective, and open to interpretation so good luck to science trying to nail it down.
@slowwco5 ай бұрын
Diane Musho Hamilton quote highlights from this video: “Some people actually have a difficult time taking their own perspective … Some people literally couldn't take their own point of view.” “Then you have people who could take their own point of view, but couldn't take the point of view of the other.” “I suddenly started to see that perspective-taking was developmental.” Egocentric self: Ego development, developing an ego, is absolutely not only natural but necessary. It's a localized experience. There tends to be a lot of stress, a lot of emphasis on survival, accomplishment, being seen. The self isn't bad; the self is simply limited and tends to suffer. Ethnocentric self: I'm now concerned with my group, my family, my nation, the people I belong to, the people I feel at home with. There’s a set of virtues and values. I’m willing to sacrifice my life for my clan or my group. The egocentric self suffers, the ethnocentric self goes to war. It's much more dangerous for human beings to identify with this which is why we disown it. World-centric: I become a member of humanity. I really feel like I belong, and I also feel that the pain of the world is mine. National boundaries dissolve. I start to see the beauty of the ecosystems and caring about the species on the planet. We see a global community. Rather than being threatened by difference, we're interested in it. Cosmic-centric self: Paradox is my reality. It's all one. It's the same. There's a beauty that starts to emerge. I can be available to the world-centric domain, I can be available to my family and the ethnocentric, and I can continue to work with my own consciousness. Your compassion is large enough to actually handle what you're doing because it's not yours.
@algotrhythm42875 ай бұрын
"Practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect" I was lucky enough to hear that when I was a teenager, from an actual World Champion who lived near us: Jonah Barrington.
@mayploy68695 ай бұрын
totally agree and i had a similar hunch that regardless of the practice, jhana is included or a necessary prerequisite, and in some cases, like when a person stumbles upon a deep and lasting insight, samadhi or jhana still needs to occur if it hasn’t already, in order for it to be an abiding awakening. for instance Ramana Maharshi spent years in Samadhi AFTER his awakening.
@GodHelpMe3695 ай бұрын
I can't fucking believe it! I'm just discovering/realizing for the first time in my 44 years of life... The rage and grief I feel... THESE ARE MY SUPERPOWERS! The fact that I can feel these at all, this alone, is my superpower! It is sacred it is divine it is feminine it is miraculous. Most are too numb to know or to feel. But I know. And I feel. This has all been in preparation for my mission as an alchemist. I am a Lioness. I am a Goddess. I am a Radically Honest Biker Bitch! Holy heaven I am mind-blown! HALLEUJAH! AND PRAISE THE LORD!
@mpavoreal5 ай бұрын
Beautiful, thank you.
@sakinney35 ай бұрын
Thank you for discussing this. I think there's a level where you have to be willing to put some time into a method, maybe even any method to develop the discernment to choose a more suitable method. The analogy I would use is when I was first learning to play guitar, I wanted to get a very good guitar. My father pointed out that I didn't know enough yet to know what a very good guitar was, and I should spend time learning and getting to the point where I would know a good guitar when I picked it up to play.
@hansenmarc6 ай бұрын
1st gear: looking at the objects in awareness 2nd gear: to whom is this happening? 3rd gear: recognizing the essential nature of mind
@michaelmurphy8256 ай бұрын
Thank you! 😊
@molh3946 ай бұрын
his love for his teacher shines through
@martynkendrick98137 ай бұрын
very clarifying. thankyou
@user-fg3fv9hl3b7 ай бұрын
Hi vince! What path would you consider yourself at? (1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th, or any others)
@buddhistgeeks6 ай бұрын
soundcloud.com/vincefhorn/my-story-of-awakening
@user-fg3fv9hl3b6 ай бұрын
@@buddhistgeeks thank you! That was a great listen, and very helpful.
@johnpienta42007 ай бұрын
This is incredibly beautiful. Thanks for sharing.
@joeniemchak7 ай бұрын
DUDE NO WAY I FOUND THE BUDDHISTGEEKS KZread CHANNEL THIS IS AWESOME WHAT'S UP VINCE!!!!
@DocMusclez8 ай бұрын
Nice explanation. I appreciate this. I came across the Four Chokshak on my own and contemplated them for quite awhile without any formal explanation and came to very similar insights. This practice is both a map and a doorway. Very useful IMO.
@Babassecretchannel8 ай бұрын
Hi Vince! Long time... :) Glad to see your and Folk's presentations of mahayana. I wonder what lead you to become interested in mahayana? Baba/Kim
@VinceFHorn8 ай бұрын
I've been interested in the Mahayana since studying these views & practices at Naropa University, and engaging with Zen practice, so for the past two decades now. I've always found the view that we aren't just doing this for ourselves, the view of the interdependence of the self, non-duality, etc. to be a big part of what's interesting about Buddhism.
@Babassecretchannel8 ай бұрын
@@VinceFHorn Blessings and success in practice!
@johng46098 ай бұрын
"Everything is perfect and there is always room for improvement." -- Shunryu Suzuki
@NothingTheGreat9 ай бұрын
To what end are we supposed to hyper-fixate on the breath until it becomes an object of fascination? This just seems like an internally-generating form of craving and entertainment. Isn't the appropriate task actually to become disillusioned with sensuality so that you stop appropriating it and becoming entangled in it? If one wants an entertaining source of absorption to just sit there and watch they can look at a campfire or cat videos.
@buddhistgeeks8 ай бұрын
You're confusing the aims of concentration and insight practice. Early Buddhism doesn't reject concentration practice, or the cultivation of blissful states of absorption (jhana), they simply differentiate that as a different type of training from noticing the 3 characteristics (vipassana). There's a reason both are included in the tradition.
@NothingTheGreat8 ай бұрын
@@buddhistgeeks I see no evidence in the early Buddhist suttas of samatha and vipassana being treated as separate practices, but rather as complementary qualities of mind to be developed, nor do I find a focused and narrow attention being advocated for toward the cultivation of the samatha/jhana aspect of the path. Please let me know if you’re aware of any. As you're no doubt aware, "concentration" is a less than ideal translation of the Pali samādhi, which is more aptly thought of as a stilling, settling, and unifying of the mind around a theme while in a state of alert presence. Not around the nostril tip, abdomen, or any other restricted physical area. The suttas are largely devoid of formalized techniques to begin with, but the only one which could arguable be seen as referring to breath-based meditation, the Anapanasati Sutta, only has a focus on breathing in the very beginning steps, and even here it is on the level of "knowing" that you are breathing in and out... not attending to the minutiae of multiple sensations, temperature, pressure, etc., within a fixed physical perimeter. You're meant to simply discern the breathing generally, because it serves merely as a peripheral anchor while you attend to and contemplate the arising phenomena of body, feelings, mind, and Dhammas. That's why it is considered a fulfillment of the Satipatthana. The jhanas are realized through the gradual training of precepts and sense-restraint, resulting in the ability to abide satisfied in seclusion by abandoning craving and aversion. Calming is either the natural result of this virtue and sense-restraint, or it’s a stopgap method of calming agitation in the interim without resorting to sensuality as you’re progressing toward that state. The Dhamma is fundamentally about going against the grain of samsaric sensuality, not finding new forms of sensual entertainment that are somewhat subtler and less harmful, such as my prior example substituting cat videos with breath fascination. Such fixated focusing on particularized sensations seems to be found only post-canonically, and goes against the very spirit of the the 4 noble truths laid out in the canon, which entails transcending the pull of the senses, not merely trading them. Apologies if my tone reads as aggressive; just being direct in order to layout the details of a contrary view.
@dellwright140716 күн бұрын
In the 2,500 years since the Buddhas time a variety of meditation practices and approaches has developed and evolved. For some people Goenka style vipassana really works (whether or not its canonical or not). Likewise jhana practice can be approached separately to vipassana. Even just in Burma alone there are a wide variety of different approaches. This is to be celebrated in my view.
@k2basecamp019 ай бұрын
Beautiful 🙏
@travisegerter71999 ай бұрын
This was very helpful thank you!!
@k2basecamp019 ай бұрын
By Buddha magic, do you mean buddha power?
@airbornepizza3 ай бұрын
What is Buddha power?
@retiredguyadventures62119 ай бұрын
I've been meditating off and on for about 48 year, and first experienced access concentration 30 years ago. It wasn't until this video that I understood what it was though...
So cool to see Kenneth explore and explicate mahayana teachings and texts!
@jaleajalea4005 Жыл бұрын
Get to the point faster
@kirstensims761611 ай бұрын
Watch a different video then weirdo
@SkittyBlackfire Жыл бұрын
I'm so confused... I thought this was on the practice of Social Meditation developed by shastri Nick Kranz... You use the same terms like facilitator but have removed all the important elements of the meditation it seems... Is it coincidence? Do you know about nick kranz his methods?
@davidbeckerman4431 Жыл бұрын
Hi! I live in Asheville and would love to join in person with you. Where is that possible?
Пікірлер
This was really beautiful. Thank you for sharing.
TWIM is my main method. Did some retreats with it and had a great experience with it. The six Rs are clunky at first but one gets into a smooth flow after a couple days; I thinks it’s great for counteracting the tension of craving and keeping a person moving in the soft jhana direction. It’s frustrating to hear that it is being by appropriated and I agree with Vince says here. Someone had to say it. Doing a ten day at Dhamma Suhka where Bhante V used to teach is amazing for the record. TWIM is legit as are many methods. I also did Goenka retreats and TWIM is much safer. I feel like I’m mainly saying TWIM works well and has a strong context. Nothing is perfect and I am always learning and listening to new teachings. Thanks
I wonder if the jhourney guys are delivering TWIM as it is delivered by authorized teachers. I wonder if morality is emphasized (sila) for example, or the other various Buddhist topics like dependent origination. TWIM is about as Buddhist as it gets!
This understanding of "buddhist tantra is incorrect". So the starting point is wrong. But i do understand the desire to change things, especially if it is in a way we think is more in line with modern thought. This guy should claim to base his new approach on some of the ideas behind tantra and buddhism.
Cultural appropriation? As a Scot should I be outraged when I see non-Scots using penicillin, the TV, the phone, the fridge, the syringe, the engine, the tyre, or the flushing toilet? Maybe you should be carrying your excrement into the back garden and burying it, instead of insensitively flushing it away using Scottish tech.
Very nice idea. Thank you for sharing! 🙏
I don’t know many details about the histories of Bill Hamilton, Kenneth Folk, and Daniel Ingram. Were they lineage holders? I wish Jhourney the best of luck, but would definitely feel better if they partnered with more experienced retreat teachers. I know Delson Armstrong has both taught TWIM retreats and been involved in medical research involving jhanic states. He seems like the perfect person for them to collaborate with. I wonder if they’ve reached out to him.
Once I hear you cant adopt things because It is "cultural appropriation" then I know you are dealing with woke bullshit. If a practice is good steal it. Are you proposing patented dharma ?
He's a Palestinian?! He'd better be careful about a world where you can only use the technology developed by your own group. He'd have to get by with falafel and keffiyehs.
He already knew that technologies make people lonely. Yes, we are now...I really thank for your teaching🙏May buddhism wisdom spread all over the world and may we be wiser and more compassionate!
Delightful as always. Thanks for sharing with us.
I thought that a cessation, in which the mind apparently loses consciousness, was the taste of nirvana. In AN 9.34, the Nibbana Sutta: Unbinding, a monk asks how the unbinding can be pleasurable when there is nothing felt. Sariputa responds that it is pleasurable precisely because there is nothing felt.
The pleasure comes after, not during. In the moment of cessation there are, as Bill Hamilton pointed out, no reference points upon which to base a description.
This takes me back to Naropa days, it mirrors stuff Reggie, Shishin Wick, and Lama Tenpa would say. I'm so glad y'all are putting this out into the world.
Thank you for this! ❤
9 years ago. Are we closer now?
Thank you so much Ryan !
Delightful. Thanks for sharing this.
I just saw this shared today, and magically enought I had just been thinking of Bob Thurman sharing this years ago and how much I loved it! Excited to watch this video.
19:00
Thanks, Ryan!
Great video. Thankyou
I always thought the vagueness was important in cults and spiritual organizations and religions because the practitioner can fill in the blank with what works for them in terms of motivation. Also it makes the promises of these organizations more or less obtainable depending on what the leader(s) would like, so they can move the goal post if they would like to keep you around our get rid of you. It just provides wiggle room. The practicing within a group also gives lots of room to hide out and disguise our intent through keeping it vague. And a final thought it’s all pretty subjective, and open to interpretation so good luck to science trying to nail it down.
Diane Musho Hamilton quote highlights from this video: “Some people actually have a difficult time taking their own perspective … Some people literally couldn't take their own point of view.” “Then you have people who could take their own point of view, but couldn't take the point of view of the other.” “I suddenly started to see that perspective-taking was developmental.” Egocentric self: Ego development, developing an ego, is absolutely not only natural but necessary. It's a localized experience. There tends to be a lot of stress, a lot of emphasis on survival, accomplishment, being seen. The self isn't bad; the self is simply limited and tends to suffer. Ethnocentric self: I'm now concerned with my group, my family, my nation, the people I belong to, the people I feel at home with. There’s a set of virtues and values. I’m willing to sacrifice my life for my clan or my group. The egocentric self suffers, the ethnocentric self goes to war. It's much more dangerous for human beings to identify with this which is why we disown it. World-centric: I become a member of humanity. I really feel like I belong, and I also feel that the pain of the world is mine. National boundaries dissolve. I start to see the beauty of the ecosystems and caring about the species on the planet. We see a global community. Rather than being threatened by difference, we're interested in it. Cosmic-centric self: Paradox is my reality. It's all one. It's the same. There's a beauty that starts to emerge. I can be available to the world-centric domain, I can be available to my family and the ethnocentric, and I can continue to work with my own consciousness. Your compassion is large enough to actually handle what you're doing because it's not yours.
"Practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect" I was lucky enough to hear that when I was a teenager, from an actual World Champion who lived near us: Jonah Barrington.
totally agree and i had a similar hunch that regardless of the practice, jhana is included or a necessary prerequisite, and in some cases, like when a person stumbles upon a deep and lasting insight, samadhi or jhana still needs to occur if it hasn’t already, in order for it to be an abiding awakening. for instance Ramana Maharshi spent years in Samadhi AFTER his awakening.
I can't fucking believe it! I'm just discovering/realizing for the first time in my 44 years of life... The rage and grief I feel... THESE ARE MY SUPERPOWERS! The fact that I can feel these at all, this alone, is my superpower! It is sacred it is divine it is feminine it is miraculous. Most are too numb to know or to feel. But I know. And I feel. This has all been in preparation for my mission as an alchemist. I am a Lioness. I am a Goddess. I am a Radically Honest Biker Bitch! Holy heaven I am mind-blown! HALLEUJAH! AND PRAISE THE LORD!
Beautiful, thank you.
Thank you for discussing this. I think there's a level where you have to be willing to put some time into a method, maybe even any method to develop the discernment to choose a more suitable method. The analogy I would use is when I was first learning to play guitar, I wanted to get a very good guitar. My father pointed out that I didn't know enough yet to know what a very good guitar was, and I should spend time learning and getting to the point where I would know a good guitar when I picked it up to play.
1st gear: looking at the objects in awareness 2nd gear: to whom is this happening? 3rd gear: recognizing the essential nature of mind
Thank you! 😊
his love for his teacher shines through
very clarifying. thankyou
Hi vince! What path would you consider yourself at? (1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th, or any others)
soundcloud.com/vincefhorn/my-story-of-awakening
@@buddhistgeeks thank you! That was a great listen, and very helpful.
This is incredibly beautiful. Thanks for sharing.
DUDE NO WAY I FOUND THE BUDDHISTGEEKS KZread CHANNEL THIS IS AWESOME WHAT'S UP VINCE!!!!
Nice explanation. I appreciate this. I came across the Four Chokshak on my own and contemplated them for quite awhile without any formal explanation and came to very similar insights. This practice is both a map and a doorway. Very useful IMO.
Hi Vince! Long time... :) Glad to see your and Folk's presentations of mahayana. I wonder what lead you to become interested in mahayana? Baba/Kim
I've been interested in the Mahayana since studying these views & practices at Naropa University, and engaging with Zen practice, so for the past two decades now. I've always found the view that we aren't just doing this for ourselves, the view of the interdependence of the self, non-duality, etc. to be a big part of what's interesting about Buddhism.
@@VinceFHorn Blessings and success in practice!
"Everything is perfect and there is always room for improvement." -- Shunryu Suzuki
To what end are we supposed to hyper-fixate on the breath until it becomes an object of fascination? This just seems like an internally-generating form of craving and entertainment. Isn't the appropriate task actually to become disillusioned with sensuality so that you stop appropriating it and becoming entangled in it? If one wants an entertaining source of absorption to just sit there and watch they can look at a campfire or cat videos.
You're confusing the aims of concentration and insight practice. Early Buddhism doesn't reject concentration practice, or the cultivation of blissful states of absorption (jhana), they simply differentiate that as a different type of training from noticing the 3 characteristics (vipassana). There's a reason both are included in the tradition.
@@buddhistgeeks I see no evidence in the early Buddhist suttas of samatha and vipassana being treated as separate practices, but rather as complementary qualities of mind to be developed, nor do I find a focused and narrow attention being advocated for toward the cultivation of the samatha/jhana aspect of the path. Please let me know if you’re aware of any. As you're no doubt aware, "concentration" is a less than ideal translation of the Pali samādhi, which is more aptly thought of as a stilling, settling, and unifying of the mind around a theme while in a state of alert presence. Not around the nostril tip, abdomen, or any other restricted physical area. The suttas are largely devoid of formalized techniques to begin with, but the only one which could arguable be seen as referring to breath-based meditation, the Anapanasati Sutta, only has a focus on breathing in the very beginning steps, and even here it is on the level of "knowing" that you are breathing in and out... not attending to the minutiae of multiple sensations, temperature, pressure, etc., within a fixed physical perimeter. You're meant to simply discern the breathing generally, because it serves merely as a peripheral anchor while you attend to and contemplate the arising phenomena of body, feelings, mind, and Dhammas. That's why it is considered a fulfillment of the Satipatthana. The jhanas are realized through the gradual training of precepts and sense-restraint, resulting in the ability to abide satisfied in seclusion by abandoning craving and aversion. Calming is either the natural result of this virtue and sense-restraint, or it’s a stopgap method of calming agitation in the interim without resorting to sensuality as you’re progressing toward that state. The Dhamma is fundamentally about going against the grain of samsaric sensuality, not finding new forms of sensual entertainment that are somewhat subtler and less harmful, such as my prior example substituting cat videos with breath fascination. Such fixated focusing on particularized sensations seems to be found only post-canonically, and goes against the very spirit of the the 4 noble truths laid out in the canon, which entails transcending the pull of the senses, not merely trading them. Apologies if my tone reads as aggressive; just being direct in order to layout the details of a contrary view.
In the 2,500 years since the Buddhas time a variety of meditation practices and approaches has developed and evolved. For some people Goenka style vipassana really works (whether or not its canonical or not). Likewise jhana practice can be approached separately to vipassana. Even just in Burma alone there are a wide variety of different approaches. This is to be celebrated in my view.
Beautiful 🙏
This was very helpful thank you!!
By Buddha magic, do you mean buddha power?
What is Buddha power?
I've been meditating off and on for about 48 year, and first experienced access concentration 30 years ago. It wasn't until this video that I understood what it was though...
Thank you so much !
The World needs more Kenneth Folk
🙏🙏 Looking forward to part 2!
Magic is manual labor - VCTR
Who's vctr
@@CarolineMartinVidyadhara Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche
So cool to see Kenneth explore and explicate mahayana teachings and texts!
Get to the point faster
Watch a different video then weirdo
I'm so confused... I thought this was on the practice of Social Meditation developed by shastri Nick Kranz... You use the same terms like facilitator but have removed all the important elements of the meditation it seems... Is it coincidence? Do you know about nick kranz his methods?
Hi! I live in Asheville and would love to join in person with you. Where is that possible?
Enjoyed this chat, thank you.